>>13742075 > Idealism.. Humans can, and should, evolve beyond war and violence. > Realism... If you are not ready and willing to defend yourself, you are just going to be a victim, and there are always going to be the non-conformist that will end up taking advantage of the weak.
> Mech Pilot Hero Idealism... I fight to protect the people who cannot from those that do what they should not.
Any time that Gundam tries it, it always ends up as a trainwreck (Destiny, 00, AGE are prime examples of that). They force-feed UNDERSTANDING to the audience and suddenly stop the fighting. Besides, they are ultimately proven wrong because the ultimate premise of Gundam is that war will always happen again, and the protagonists' idealism is all destroyed in vain (it may take decades or even centuries, but it will happen).
>>13742075 00 is a good example of a show that did peace through understanding very well. Some people are just assholes and need to die, most people can come to terms even if they don't necessarily get everything they want. Setsuna and CB never shy away from a fight, nor does the Federation. It's just worth pursuing the alternative, especially when faced with a superior foe.
Then there are shows like SEED and AGE that have the protagonist singlehandedly stopping a war because fighting wars is bad and killing is wrong.
/m/ often conflates the two because /m/ is reactionary as fuck.
I don't have a problem with it, though I do have a problem with the idea that war can simply end. It's not a limited problem that can just be finished with. At least, not so long as resources of any kind are limited. Which they always will be within the scope of Gundam. Idealism doesn't simply mean "end of war" and I rather enjoy shows that are idealistic on the whole, just not in that one particular way. That said, I enjoyed 00, because it didn't suggest war was finished forever, just that humanity had unified (after another war) and that it had set out to the stars - where there'd probably be more wars eventually, even if not between humans and other humans.
>>13742075 Because you simply can't, at least not without bullshit deus ex machina like newtype magic.
War and violence is just one of the means or by-product of reaching a desirable result to the individual's goals and/or desire, to sever this from our instincts would potentially means that we are severing a part of ourselves that strive to improve beyond our current situation.
What will happen to you when you lose that will to improve? You stagnate, you stop thinking how you will move from your current position to a better one because every move you take may potentially make damages upon somebody else or may start a conflict; you will not want to gain extra resources because resources is limited and the only way to make more for yourself is to damage the supply to other individuals, and what will happen when that arises? "war and violence"
tl;dr It's impracticable in real life and severing your desire will make you no better than a salted dead fish.
>>13742270 IMO 00 truly built themselves up from the ruins of W into a reasonable plot.
In W almost all the characters are "perfect", they are un-damnable because they are just misunderstood.
Preaching about dropping off weapons are fine and all but there will always be that one asshole who are born to make things worse for everyone around him, in W there were almost no true "bad" characters like that, just people acting under different flags or ideals.
Simply on the subject of crime, we are still very, very far away from achieving no-crime, even in 1st world countries.
As for the exploitation of other individuals, 1st world countries have been exploiting other countries in less favorable position for a long time, a lot of effort has been made to keep them subdued through economic/military means. You don't expect a government to just tell that to your average soft-bellied citizen who buy organic/fairtrade stuff to feel good about themselves that won't you?
1st world (every) government has been fighting to keep their own interests high just so that war should be the absolute last resort, the exploited 1st worlders has been kept sedated with entertainment and cheap satisfactions to minimize the possibility of rebellions so to keep the status quo.
>>13742266 he might be refering to the fact that it took humanity multiple wars,the coming of aliens,overcoming a common enemy (celestial being), the formation of the A-laws,all the world wars prior (I believe 00 was up to 7),almost all of their energy resources being used up and a god in order for them to finally have a slight chance at peace
Men can't have perfect peace, it's just impossible because we're still greedy monkeys with an obsession for power and our own lineage.
Think of the war in Libya. France had no real reason to start it, they weren't starving or anything, yet when they saw the risk of Gaddafi putting Africa together with a continental coin backed by his gold and silver reserves, making it effectively a strong continent unable to get pushed around by other powers they had him killed so they could get better Gas and other treaties by the new puppet government they'd put there.
In doing so they caused a LOT of death and disorders that ruined at least a hundred thousand lives, if not more. Isn't that incredibly evil? Yet every leader on Earth does that kind of stuff, because they feel the need for more power even when they already have it. American economic imperialism in every foreign country, Russians trying to lay claim to lost soil AND waging a war to win Iran's and Syria favours, Chinese with their economic African invasion, Israel' expansionism, minor African countries killing each other every other minute for strips of land and the list goes on.
We all suffer from this, and that's why seeing stupid endings like the one in Unicorn(which has the double problem of being rendered useless in less than 30 years by the late-UC sequels) or 00 is aggravating, no one would respect that peace as long as he's an actual human. The only real way to keep such a peace would be a devastating deterrent, but at that point it's no longer UNDERSTANDING.
UNDERSTANDING is an ideal no more realistic than "real" Anarchy, the peaceful kind of Anarchy theorized by Bakunin and not the Hokuto no Ken kind of anarchy.
I'm not saying all men are created in M.D. Geist semblance by the way, but given a position of power and the possibility to further his own goals a person will inevitably do morally questionable stuff to further his own agenda.
>>13742075 Because we already have fairy tales which have stood the test of time for hundreds of years if we want a story about idealism. We don't need shitty modern ones that just recycle the same thing with terrible animation like 00 did.
The thing is, understanding others does not mean you will stop fighting, if anything, you realise why you actually hate them and you fight them harder.
Understanding the enemy does not imply that you forgive them for their crimes against your people, neither does it mean that your national interests become irrelevant. It also doesn't mean that you will agree with their "wrong"(As compared to your ideals) ideals, if any.
The best our leaders have ever tried to do is shake up the status quo. We've never had someone on the level of Mao who was trying to remake their nation to be "perfect", the cost in human life be damned.
When we start having purges, then we'll talk.
>>13743212 >The thing is, understanding others does not mean you will stop fighting, if anything, you realise why you actually hate them and you fight them harder.
See I always hear this, and I think it's just overwhelming cynicism. If that was true, the world powers would have gone right back to war after rebuilding from WW2, even with the presence of nukes. But we didn't, we decided to try and get along and understand each other's pov.
>>13742863 Marder, we know you're assblasted about getting shoved off Lanplate, and we're happy for you, but could you NOT involve Arst in your bullshit? You'd be a fucking hero if you just didn't do that whole "take over Arst" thing in the process.
>>13743241 To be fair, if nuke grandma hadn't nuked the Festum before HaE, they could have avoided a very large amount of that bullshit.
>>13743373 >we DO in fact possess the ability to coexist. At least until someone gets provoked into war, shit like territorial disputes which is still going on in some places could go really wrong easily.
And then there's places like Syria which is currently a huge mess.
Dunno about these days, but old-school Tomino didn't seem to buy into the whole UNDERSTANDING meme.
Look at Amuro and Char in Zeta Gundam. They understand each other completely, know what the other is dealing with when no one else around them does, and share a bond that they do not have with anyone else living (RIP Lalah).
They also greatly dislike each other, and it takes both of them a long time to set aside their differences and work together.
Violence is a response. So long as humans possess the ability to be evil, violence will stop their evil. You don't stop someone like hitler or isis through understanding. You can try to prevent war, but once it starts there is no other recourse. S1 Setsuna had the right idea. When a war isn't in your backyard, it's easy to talk about peace while others suffer. The most humane act is extreme military intervention. CB did this successfully, but then aliens and shit happened.
>>13743411 >For war to end everyone would have to neatly conform. Not necessarily. I believe there's another way. First and foremost, you'd need a better solution to scarcity of resources than we currently have. The problem is the whole way the global economic system works. Countless people get screwed over because of forces outside their control every day. The value of currency itself cannot be controlled. Governments print or recall money based entirely on how well the markets are doing, which is random. What we need is a system where people are guaranteed to get exactly as much out of their work as they put into it. The way it is, that's not the case for most people and there's inevitably conflict because of it. On the other hand, if you remove the necessity of a business to profit by basing personal wages and the economic system in general entirely on labor-hours instead of arbitrary currency, you remove the problems that always occur when a business tries to expand.
I don't claim to know the first thing about economics, but it just doesn't make sense to me to have everything have a value based on completely uncontrollable supply and demand
The other thing we'd need is to have cultures keep themselves completely isolated. Prejudices don't ever go away, and countries that are constantly having negative interaction with each other will not ever learn to sit down and play nice. But, if you keep warring countries apart for 2 generations or so, the influential people there eventually will give way to those that didn't experience the conflict and have nothing against people currently in the other country. Take Switzerland, for example. It may have a lot of cultures in it, but the cultures and the country itself are isolationist as fuck, and I bet most of the citizens can't even imagine what war is like. All they have to go off of is fiction. They haven't been in an actual war for centuries. Now imagine every country on Earth being like that.
It's just the way that it's handled that I dislike. I'm really idealistic, but to think that things will get better all at once is just silly. So sorry for the non-mecha example, but I'm an SMT fan because of how the "best' endings are bittersweet, and temporary. That said, I do love temporary showings of peace, like the whole Christmas truce in WWI.
Humans do have it in them to at least get really close to no war or violence, but that time is way way far into the future. That's what makes the journey there so interesting though, no?
>>13743512 >but then aliens and shit happened So? It was an extinction-level event where the factions had to either come together to survive or die apart. It does not imply that they LIKED each other any more than they did before. An alliance of necessity.
In fact, if the side materials are to believed, mankind went right back to killing each other after the movie, and Celestial Being continued to perform their military interventions, at least until the epilogue (but even that's left open to interpretation).
That's because we never get involved enough. Inaction or inadequate action is the reason we have/had situations like syria, korea, yugoslavia, israel, iraq, etc.
For instance, consider the possibility that america made greater strides after world war 2 to ally with the soviet union. The korean war might not have even happened. We entered the war so late that dprk/china/ussr almost won control of the entire peninsula. We pushed them to the chinese border and compromised with the ussr/chinese at the expense of koreans. Even today this conflict claims lives and leaves korea a divided nation. I don't feel guilt for being white. I feel guilt as an american because we were directly responsible for the war and didn't produce the optimal outcome (united korea).
You should visit some of these affected nations and see how our actions impacted the world. I went to south korea for a month and I was very moved when I visited the geoje pow camp.
>>13742960 Pacifism and Star Trek is an interesting conundrum, especially in regards to Gene Roddenberry. He was a pretty shit writer and would have been labeled the most obnoxious SJW if he lived today, IMO. His peaceful vision of humanity in the future was unrealistic, and he often clashed with writers over how the Federation was portrayed.
>>13743584 Extreme isolation does seem to work, but that's still somewhat of a temporary fix. It's impossible to fully stay isolated in this day and age, plus the no war example seems a bit scary. Quite a few British soldiers in WW1 got in because of all the war stories that they got told, thinking that the war would be as easy as the rape and pillaging of Africa was for their fathers or grandfathers. Boy, did they end up in some shit.
Having multiple cultures interact and understand is very difficult, of course, but ultimately ends up to less conflict in the long run. People today even can still easily dismiss others as savages or non-human, and just do what they want..
>>13743628 >I don't feel guilt for being white. I feel guilt as an american because we were directly responsible for the war and didn't produce the optimal outcome (united korea).
I didn't say guilt, I said burden. White Man's Burden was about how now that the US had control of the Philippinnes, they better not fuck it up like everyone else did because the flips can't take care of themselves.
>>13743688 Ironically, I think it actually is the internet that would prevent something like your British soldier example in today's day and age. They'd be exposed to all kinds of accounts of how war is hell before they'd ever get the chance to sign up.
>>13743205 because its unnatural and unrealistic. Individual people can embrace peace, but a larger society never can because there will ALWAYS be disparity. Disparity always leads to conflict eventually. People naturally edge away from perfect things because they find them off putting hence the perfectly peaceful society being disliked for its wrongness.
It's boring and counter-productive. We're watching a show that's going to be about robots fucking each other up; the plot should be conducive to war.
For some reason, the Japanese are especially hypocritical about the angst, too. Every other country's war movies tend to focus more on how war sucks for *your friends* - Killing the enemy, however, is expected.
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