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Tech Growth in UC
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So this may sound odd, but at what points in the UC timeline does technology start overlapping? I mean past the OYW, and around the Neo Zeon periods.

We constantly see things about how some tech like the ReZel is better than the Geara Zulu or how the Geara Dogas were on an even playing field with Jegans, but where is that line etched in the sand?

How does a Doven Wolf fare against a Geara Doga? How does the Zeta Plus C1 deal with a Geara Zulu? When does the original Gundam lose against grunt suits a few years later? Does the Zeta Gundam hold up at all against things like the Gustav Karl?

I'm almost asking for a "What beats what" thread, but something a little more refined, I guess. Any ideas?
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Gelgoogs were superior to the Gundam in every way other than learning computer
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>>11075651
>where is that line etched in the sand?
The stats. They're all just made-up scifi numbers but they're all we've got to go on. It's pretty clear in a few cases, but when the discrepancies are small or when a machine excels in one field compared to another but is deficient in others, then it becomes time for people to argue about fictional consistency on the internet.
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>>11075651
>but at what points in the UC timeline does technology start overlapping
No idea what you're trying to ask here

>>11075651
>We constantly see things about how some tech like the ReZel is better than the Geara Zulu or how the Geara Dogas were on an even playing field with Jegans, but where is that line etched in the sand?
Look at the specs.

>>11075651
>How does a Doven Wolf fare against a Geara Doga? How does the Zeta Plus C1 deal with a Geara Zulu? When does the original Gundam lose against grunt suits a few years later? Does the Zeta Gundam hold up at all against things like the Gustav Karl?

Specs.
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>stats
It is the runner that makes the difference.
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The original Gundam, if kept well maintained could possibly hold off an army of Nemo's. Against the MK II or Zeta however and it would probably be decimated, that would depend on the pilot of both gundam's though, if it was Amuro vs Kamille it would certainly be an interesting fight but with the Zeta's more advanced tech then it would undoubtedly win
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>>11075666
>look at the specs
>specs
>the specs, that are unreliable and don't really say whether any of these things are better than other things at all, if you can even trust them to begin with.
What he said.
>>11075658
Pretty much. Zeon tech was above the Gundam at the end of the OYW, but Germany also had jets by the end of WWII.
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>>11075651
The golden rule about tech progression in UC in terms of non-protagonist/end boss MS is always "probably not as big as you'd think it is."

The biggest things to take into consideration when trying to measure performance differences is is two things; 1 weapon assortment, and 2. Acceleration. Those are the two main areas of comparison. There are smaller areas, like number of verniers and armor materials, but the former is only somewhat important when considering battlefield movement and the latter is made irrelevant thanks to beam weapons.

Another thing you might want to consider is "does it use a linear seat?" The linear seat kind of makes more average pilots more comfortable with pulling more dangerous and jerky maneuvers than they would in an older cockpit, which is part of the reason we see thrusters being used more liberally in the earth's atmosphere Gryps Era and onwards (that, and slightly more propellant carrying capacity/thruster output.)
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>>11075666
I think OP means in terms of not just raw numbers, but things we've seen, side by side comparisons, etc. Specs don't always tell you everything unless it's something like a Guncannon fighting a Sazabi.

I think I get what he means. Like comparing different countries and their weapons and vehicles against one another. Some are the same and do the same thing, but are better in some departments not just covered by stats alone, ie; durability, cost, etc.
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>>11075658
Well, that and armor material and magnetic coating.
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>>11075679
>Zeon tech was above the Gundam at the end of the OYW
Federation tech was surpassing the Gundam at the end of the OYW, and that's not even considering the RX-78-4-6 or the Alex.

The only thing that made the Gundam special was Amuro
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>>11075679
>but Germany also had jets by the end of WWII.

The Me 262 was a Zudah, Anon. A Zudah.
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>>11075735
Now you tell me the engine was shit and they blew up a lot
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>>11075735
>not those rocket powered interceptors.

Komet I think it was? It also lost so there a real Zudah.
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So what, OP doesn't want to refer to specs? What the hell else are we supposed to measure them by?

Why not just say "whoever is better and luckily wins"
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>>11075651
I think whats more important is how certain technology is applied, the zaku sniper was still a very effective suit despite its age because it played to its strengths.

Considering the big picture, Zeon factions, while having more tactically effective weapons and technology also have difficulty deploying those weapons on a strategic level because of cost or difficulty of use.

The federation on the other hand is shown to be just as effective in developing novel war technology, but generally only goes for cost effective means of improving its forces fighting effectiveness.

there is also the issue of pilot skills, warrior culture of the belligerents, logistics, supply chains, and morale
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>>11075747

Pretty much. They were made of "Ersatz" materials that tended to light up and had to be replaced after pretty much every flight - if you didn't want your pilots to enjoy an aerial viking burial, that is.
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>>11075735
>The Me 262 was a Zudah, Anon. A Zudah.

Nah that'd be the Horten Ho 229.
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>>11075735
>>11075747
>>11075750
The Me-262 was actually an effective craft that did get a pretty good number of kills before the end of the war. It had problems and was prone to malfunction, but it was also literally the first of its kind.

I can definitely see the similarity between the Zudah and the Me-262 on the technical side of things. Otherwise, the Zudah just falls into obscurity after it's dwarfed by the Zaku.
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>>11075796
>It had problems and was prone to malfunction, but it was also literally the first of its kind.

And I'd bet that was because of a materials shortage. If the plane got the properly built engines it was suppose to it may have not won the war but the Allies would be in some serious shit if fielded in large enough numbers.
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>>11075651
>>11075666
>>11075679

I don't think the OP wants hard numbers or specs posted from model kits. I think he just wants our opinion on when stuff in the show starts to show its age and not be as effective as they were in their debut series.

If you were to ask I think stuff from the ZZ era Zeon tech is considered "cold war era" (like someone in the late 1990s looking back at Russian tech in the mid 1980s). By Gundam Unicorn, all of Neo-Zeons high end suits have been studied and dissected by the Feddies already. That isn't to say they aren't powerful still, but there aren't any new surprises. Pilots know what they are dealing with. A Zaku III was a beast in ZZ gundam, but in Unicorn (over 10 years later) its fighting off custom Jegans of Londo Bell.

>>11075774

In my own personal way, I think Aaother way to think of it is like this. If a Doven Wolf is only 50% as good as Gundam Unicorn, and you put Amuro in the Doven Wolf, Amuro is going spend 50% of his energy trying to make up for the suits limitations against the enemy suit (assuming the enemy pilot is equal to Amuro), rather than using his surplus on the battle and tactics. Essentially, Amuro would be pre-occupied just trying to keep up with the Unicorn's performance in general.

I think Hi-spec suits don't last very long pitted against other Hi-spec suits of later eras because the tech has already been studied, but they do great against grunts because grunt suits are always cheap and never push the envelope.
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>>11075651

Most of that is grunt suits vs grunt suits. So difference is small between them. Slightly better things here and there. Nothing major. It comes down to pilots and numbers. A Doven Wolf would own a Geara Doga. Geara Doga's are just cheap upgraded mass produced suits for Char's rebellion. They would have no answer against the Doven Wolf's weapons. The Doga might be able dodge the funnels/bits/incoms/whatever a little longer because of improved thrust and sensors, but the result would still be the same.

Kind of like how the custom Jegan lasted a minute longer against the Kshatriya in episode 1 compared to the regular Jegans. But the result is still the same. The Doven Wolf would crush the Geara Doga.
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>>11075870
>more actual tech-disparity talk
Part of the problem is that even though there are stats out there for all those mobile suits, they're to be taken with a grain of salt. Even their performance in each series is suspect when you look at some of the hilariously inconsistent combat scenes in the franchise.

08th MS Team came up recently as an example. There's a short of 08th MS Team where the Ground Gundam takes a magella cannon to the chest and is entirely unscathed. That's not even actually possible, but they did it because it "looked cool".

The only really good metric is anecdotes, and looking at how mobile suits evolved over the course of UC. If your Zeta grunt suit is basically a Zaku II with a cooler look, you're probably fucked. There are a couple times where characters will flat-out say that certain mobile suits are relics, and so that's a good start to answering these questions.
>>11075884
>custom Jegan lasted longer against the Kshatriya
To be fair, the Kshatriya was a state-of-the-art machine piloted by a cyber newtype. All things considered, that Stark Jegan pilot actually did a really good job in that fight. It was outmatched in every way, but it definitely wasn't a relic by comparison.
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>>11075651

> How does the Zeta Plus C1 deal with a Geara Zulu?

Probably the same as when the Delta Plus owned that Geara Doga in its debut.

>Does the Zeta Gundam hold up at all against things like the Gustav Karl?

Gustav Karl looked like a fatty suit, so I don't know how it would hold up against an agile ace unit in the Earth's gravity. I don't have too much of a high opinion of it based on what I saw on screen.

>When does the original Gundam lose against grunt suits a few years later?

Amuro in the gundam could probably use it as a grunt unit against other grunts until ZZ gundam. I think even with Amuro maxing out his Newtype powers, by that point the original gundam is so old by that point that a squad of Gaza's could take him out.
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>>11075651
Which series is the gif from?
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>>11075890

>Ez8 vs tank talk

No real comment on it, since I haven't seen it. I know in the original show it took a magella tank blast to the chest and the chest was visibly warped and dented. Maybe they didn't have the budget to do hi-detail so they just said eff it and went for cool looking stuff. Dunno.

>It was outmatched in every way, but it definitely wasn't a relic by comparison.

Never said it was a relic. I was just saying a "Doven Wolf vs Geara Doga" would go down the same way as "Kshatriya vs those regular Jegans". I thought it was a fair analogy. Add in some extra-time if you're a custom unnamed unit.
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>>11075908
Orguss 02
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>>11075896
>Amuro in the gundam could probably use it as a grunt unit against other grunts until ZZ gundam. I think even with Amuro maxing out his Newtype powers, by that point the original gundam is so old by that point that a squad of Gaza's could take him out.

an oldtype in a gelgoog took on the gundam mk 2, hyaku shiki, and ZZ gundam at the same time and did pretty well all things considered

Amuro was a beast, even in his old rickety rx-78 he could probably keep chugging along just fine facing off against mooks clear through to CCA
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>>11075916

Those kids piloting the Mk. 2 and Hyaki Shiki weren't trained pilots. They were just children playing around in mobile suits who fell for silly tricks. Put trained feddie grunts (like we saw in episode 1) and that Gelgoog would have gotten beaten down a lot faster.
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>>11075908

Boku no Pico 0079
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>>11075824
>If the plane got the properly built engines it was suppose to it may have not won the war but the Allies would be in some serious shit if fielded in large enough numbers.

The Brits would've released the Meteors and that would be it. Pretty much the only way for Germany to win is for everyone to do nothing until they've conquered Russia and integrated it into their political and economical sphere of influence.
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>>11075916

But the Gelgoog lost though...
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>>11075928
there's nothing to suggest she was previously some great pilot either
and those kids were newtypes, all of them, and she wasn't
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>>11075934
I said all things considered
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>>11075651

You don't need to go that far in the timeline. OYW will do.

Zaku's were designed against Feddie Tanks. Did poorly against GMs.

GM's were designed against Zeon Zaku's.
Did poorly against suits with higher specs thank Zaku's (Gelgoog and Z'gok), however huge numbers overcame the difference.

Gundam was unique with it's beam rifle for the first quarter of the show. GMs then show up with weaker beam guns, and Gundam is already showing age. It's no longer unique with its beam tech.

Dom's and stuff were relevant up to 0083. After that, they got old.
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I find noteworthy how the Federation never had suits capable of "skate hovering", like Zeon's Dom, Jelgoog and others
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>>11076000

The federation is so damn cheap about their grunt suits, that you'll never see mass produced "Dom" GM. Probably be declared "too expensive."
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>>11076019
Motherfuckers still use Balls in crossbone
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>>11075908
Ignore them, its gundam unicorn
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>>11076060
Nah, man, I'm... pretty sure it's Eureka Seven, I think one of the later episodes.
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>>11076060
It's pretty obvious that it's from 08th MS Team, not Unicorn.
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>>11076074
>There are people who actually believe this

>>11075908
Episode 4 of gundam unicorn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3jNep1Ywc8

One of my fav scenes.

>>11076089
>tfw no juaggu's are in 08ms team

This upsets me greatly, WE NEED MORE ELPHANT MECHA
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>>11076000
they do though in the games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0UJVZty3yM
0:40
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>>11075896
a Zeta Plus C1 would have liquefied the Geara Doga with its 50MW smartgun from outside of the Doga's sensor range.
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>>11076108
That Juagg got robbed.
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I think of a Zaku II like a .22 and a Jegan is like a .50 cal.

Obviously having NO mobile suits is way worse than having a shitty mobile suit.
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>>11076108
The answer to the age old question: How many mobile suits does it take to take down a Juagg (and his friend)?

Six.
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>>11076225
That's a stupid answer. Clearly the answer is that the number of mobile suits don't matter, you just need a single beam lance.
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I'm not touching this one.

Look at thrust/weight ratios and range as a guideline for engagement -- and power-plant for a frequency of firing/boost behaviour.

Generally as I recall between CCA and Unicorn, there was around a 17%-19% improvement in performance (with the Sasabi vs Sinanju/Nu vs Unicorn as a base guideline -- though they traded variety of loadout in return for a single weapon mentality).

idk. You'd have to sit down and skim through the numbers. You could probably graph them based on the stats.

As for the energy output of the generator? That doesn't drive the joints or the thrusters (plasma from the generator does that). Rather, that output only really represents the electrical output since something like 90% of a mobile-suits systems are not electrically driven because of Minovsky interference.
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>>11076236
>As for the energy output of the generator? That doesn't drive the joints or the thrusters (plasma from the generator does that). Rather, that output only really represents the electrical output since something like 90% of a mobile-suits systems are not electrically driven because of Minovsky interference.

i dont say this often but literally everything you just wrote was wrong.
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>>11075651
RX-78 was outspecced by the Gelgoog.
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Cant they just give the zaku a beam gun? Something hand held like the gundam.
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>>11076402
Generator can't support beam weaponry. Even the Hizack struggled with more than one beam weapon at once.
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>>11076402
They can, but only if it has a separate power source. Those weapons hadn't been developed yet.
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>>11075710
>The only thing that made the Gundam special was Amuro
And Amuro said the only thing that made him special was the Gundam, so which is it?
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>>11076513
At first it was the Gundam, then it was Amuro.
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Barring Trans Am, could a Doven Wolf beat an Exia? What about a Delta Kai vs Exia?
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So where in the UC have we first seen LCD screens?

I'm rather curious of the points in time where 'real tech advances' cross over into the UC. Things like smartphones, internet, etc.

I'm rather curious as to when we first see these changes in the shows.
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>>11076619
A better question is which Gundam series was the last to use Cathode Ray Tubes in the cockpits.
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>>11076623
Don't the 360 cockpits use projectors?
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>>11076649
>>11076623
>>11076619
I remember when cockpits only had screens instead of a 360 degree view.
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>>11075890
The reason why the EZ-8 was able to take that shot to the chest was that they significantly strengthened the armor there when they removed the vulcan after the Ground Type Gundam it was built out of got trashed. Basically it was using some of the spare space and weight for protecting the pilot and it worked.

With a regular Ground Type Gundam it would have punched a hole in the armor and killed the pilot...
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I think the most interesting overlap is from about 0096-0123. The Earth Federation continues its attitude of 'Meh, it'll do' for the majority of its equipment. Jegans, which have been in service for around 34 years are still being used, and despite the revolution of mobile suit miniaturization having started 30 years ago, they only have a dozen or so suits using this technology.

In theory, miniaturized mobile suits are lighter, faster, and better than their larger counterparts from the past, but simply, they're probably also weaker. If an older suit can keep up with the pace of the warfare, they're going to do just fine. High performance mobile suits from previous eras should have no problem doing this. The ZZ Gundam is able to keep up with suits 40 years younger than it in Crossbone Gundam (even though thats a bad example really, because the ZZ was absurdly overpowered in its time, and probably would have remained relevant for years had some punk not decided to ride it off to jupiter with his harem).

With that as a base line, you've got to assume that any, high performance, high powered suit from the past era could have stood toe to toe with all but the premier suits of UC0123. Suits as far back as the Original Zeta should be operating fast enough to have a serious, to say nothing of something like a Delta Plus or ReZel. Zeon wise (because I love me some zeon fan wank) I'd hold little hope for any of the one year war suits being able to hold their own in 0123 (despite what happens in F90 manga...), but maybe some of the more intense Axis suits, Döven Wolves, maybe a Dreissen, and then some of the more advanced Neo Zeon and Sleeves suits are probably gonna keep up.
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>>11076579
Doven Wolves are heavily armed but are pretty slow and arnt very maneuverable. they were top-of-the-line in ZZ Gundam but by the time of Unicorn the ReZels were flying circles around the Vist Foundation's Silver Bullets.
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>>11076619
>>11076623
>>11076649
Char's counter attack, the way the screens break implies they're using some kind of CTR, but by 0096 and unicorn we have LCD screens.

Smart phones are probably pointless in the gundam universe. I get bad signal now, I can't imagine if there were Minovsky particles literally everywhere. No wireless for more than a few metres etc, there is no direct internet connection between colonies and earth because you have to use satellite uplinks to do that, all because of these goddamn Minovsky particles. Seriously fuck those things.
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>>11076108
Beam sabers still don't work like that.
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>>11076754
Yeah, once he let go the beam saber should have fallen sideways from gravity and melted its way through the Capule. Or sunk further into the ground. No reason why it would suddenly act like a regular sword and "stick" into something like that.
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>>11075651
The battle referenced by your gif is just bs. There's no way those OYW suits could have played beamsabers so easily
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>>11076784
In his cheapness, EF started to issue retractable fluorescent pointy metal sticks instead of regular beam sabers
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>>11076798

They were probably upgraded. Originally, the Juagg was never listed as having torso mounted beam cannons.
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>>11075651
Care to remember me the Source, I'm brain damaged atm
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>>11076019
Consider that their amphbious MS development is a fraction of Zeon's, despite the fact that Earth's surface is 70% water.

These two are, IIRC, the only two dedicated marine MS in the Federation.
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>>11076231
That's a beam javelin. The RX-78-2's beam sabers would extend into one.
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>>11076619
Why do you assume another universe's technological growth is equal to ours? The Gundam universe isn't our own universe and having minovsky particles would drastically change the path technology was discovered and applied. You can't assume everything we have is something they need either. If you have a lot of people in space you focus on space technology far beyond what the real world does for example.
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>>11076732
Not exactly the best combarison, since Silver Bullets where downgraded Doven Wolves. The original had granades, the megaparticle cannon in the abdomen, and the Mega Launcher.

Oh, and while they aren't very maneuverable. The abdomen MPC, grenades, and missiles would prevent anything from getting too close.
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I don't think there's really much growth in MS technology between the Gryps Conflict and Unicorn.

It all seemed like a race to make suits with more and bigger weapons, bigger reactors to support that and bigger/more thrusters to move all that weight. The technology is mostly the same, just that engineers were trying to see how much they could pack into a single unit.

Only newtype-based equipment seemed like it had any actual development.
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>>11076873
I still like these two a lot. Mostly because I'm a sucker for blue/orange/white.
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>>11076800
So to cut cost, the Feds actually started issuing extending heat sabers like the ones Doms use as "beam sabers"? That would explain a lot of scenes in Unicorn. Thanks for this post, anon. Really sent my sides into orbit.
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>>11076958
The Silver Bullet's mega launcher is actually built into its shield, which also equips small missiles.

The Silver Bullet also has a separate beam rifle
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>>11076784
The inconsistency of weapons in Unicorn kind of annoyed me. Like the Unicorn's beam magnum being fired into the ground causing no damage.
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>>11076690
Karen's RX-79 also got hit in the chest by a magella cannon with no real damage, although she was knocked unconscious from the impact.

>>11076806
>Fixed armaments: 2 x 3-tube 320mm rocket launcher, mounted on arms; 4 x mega particle cannon, mounted in chest

>>11077033
Suuuure.

>>11077405
I'm pretty sure they still made a hole, but the shots were tiny, smaller than they were in episode 2.
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>>11075980
This actually isn't true. The Zaku II A and C types were specifically thrown out by Kycilia because she didn't feel they would be able to fight against the mobile suits she predicted the Federation would eventually field. So they were never truly mass produced. The Heat Hawk, Spike Armor, and Zaku Shield were all basically developed under the conception that one day there would be Federation MS. Zeon was doing very well with its mobile suit technology and was prepared for the onset of Federation Ms. Unfortunatly, Zeon was prepared for Minovsky's defection and therefore the Federation gaining access to beam weapons and the reactors needed to use them before Zeon did.

Remember, the Gelgoog was originally a high performance replacement for the Zaku II using conventional weapons, and was only upgraded when Zeon realized that the Federation was able to field mobile suit beam weapons.
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>>11076873
The whole reason Zeon lost is because they insisted on creating half a dozen dedicated MS for every possible environment or situation, when half the value of a mobile suit is how it can adapt to different environments. Even when the Federation were the bad guys as the Titans they were a lot smarter than Zeon ever was about building their mobile suits with interchangeable parts.
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>>11077519
Even if they built nothing but Zakus adapted for every major battle environment, they weren't going to win.
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>>11076402
>>11076483
This also isn't true, to be nit picky. Zeon MS technology during the One Year War is a bit spotty during the middle period because they don't have access to the E-CAP. So they can only power their weapons via mega particles from the reactor like the Dom Flash or Aquatic beam weapons. They have do have units which have been stated have the capacity for it, such as the Dom and High Mobility Zaku II which could use beam weapons just like the GM if they had access to E-Cap technology. That's also why the Beam Bazooka has its own generator, because it's a mega particle cannon and not a true beam weapon.

Instead spend that reactor capacity on manuverability. Basically, Zeon realizes that it can't outweapon the Federation, so it builds a bunch of mobile suits with high specs to compensate.
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>>11077487


Not too smart are you ?

http://web.archive.org/web/20090131145354/http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm

>>11077517

Actually, the C Type were mass produced, and were the most common variant at the beginning of the war. The F type was created after the Antarctic Treaty, and was just the C Type, with all the equipment to allow for the use of nuclear bazookas removed.

>>11077519

The Titans had even more different types of suits then Zeon did, atleast, in MSG vs MSZG. Besides, while Zeon did make too many different types of weapons, the amphibious ones were perfectly justifiable, since, the EFF Aquatic GMs barely work, and were prone to springing a leak.
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>>11077519
>the reason Zeon lost

...was that it takes 75,000 gallons of water to produce one ton of steel.

They do not have access to any common good, other than vacuum and sunlight.
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>>11077548
The amphibious ones were maybe the least justifiable of all, because most of them were very poor combatants away from deep water. We're not talking normal rivers here, we're talking extremely deep rivers and lakes. There are very few locations of military importance that can be assaulted by deep water except for those along the coastline, which don't need aquatic MS for defense.
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>>11077583


They were to hunt subs, and battleships. I also disagree, in the show, they could fight on land fairly well.
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>>11077554
Pretty sure Zeon produced like 2 or 3x as many total MS/MA compared to the feddies. Production capabilities weren't a problem until they overreached and were out matched by better feddie suits
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>>11076754
Actually, they kind of do. The minovsky particles inside a beam saber have mass, and are compacted to the point of forming a consistent shape, meaning the beam itself, while made of plasma, has properties more like a volatile pseudo-solid as long as the I-Field containing the beam is not broken, meaning once it's stuck in a surface, if simply left like that, it will take time to fall through. As such, still require a force behind it to cut in spite of the heat, and gravity's not enough for it to cut through instantaneously. That beam saber looks like it's going into the Capule and into the ground, meaning it's got a lot of material to ea through, and might take a little bit for it to melt through to the ground.

For all intents and purposes, beam sabers are sort of like really hot fluorescent pointy sticks that are retractable, like >>11076800 jokingly implied.
>>
>>11077592

Well the feds had a late start, but they kept on pumping out Salamis cruisers, Balls, jet fighters, transport aircrafts and other stuff all the while.
>>
>>11077592

> Pretty sure Zeon produced like 2 or 3x as many total MS/MA compared to the feddies. Production capabilities weren't a problem until they overreached and were out matched by better feddie suits

That's the thing though, let's say that the Federation produced 1/3rd as many suits as Zeon did. Assuming production remained consistent, the Federation would match the number of suits Zeon produced over the period of four years in just nine months.
>>
>>11077595
If they could produce I-Fields on beam sabers, why not give every MS an I-field?
>>
>>11077600

Five years, actually.
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>>11077602

It would require a far more expensive, powerful, and larger reactor, and radiator to support a full body I field.
>>
>>11077600
The bulk of their production was from 0078 and 79. Zaku II through the rest of them.

>

The Principality of Zeon begins mass production of the MS-06 Zaku II.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php

Zeon starts mass production of Doms in late 0079. Gelgoogs at the end of 0079. Goufs in 2nd half of 0079. And they're still working on Zaku variants the entire time. Not to mention all their aquatic suits.

The Federation on the other hand mass produces mostly vanilla GMs and makes a few variants based off of the initial design.

Compared to Zeon the Federation has a much simpler design stage since they focus primarily on a single suit that is flexible enough to serve as a basis for many different designs.
>>
>>11077602
I-fields are formed naturally during the process of particle acceleration of minovsky particles.

The I-field isn't what gives the beam saber its hardness, it just gives it a shape. Plasma changes viscosity based on temperature, so extremely hot plasma could have the consistency of a solid, though whether it can be as solid as an actual solid is... Well I don't know about that
>>
>>11077611
>>11077642
Unicorn's shield carries it's own reactor to generate that I-field, right?
>>
>>11077600
>>11077592
There's also the point about the Federation not trying to reinvent the wheel every time they make a mobile suit. Most Federation MS are all built on the same or similar frames, with variables in the armor and equipment dictating the combat role, and even then, they still managed to be higher performing than most everything Zeon threw at them. That explains how they were not only able to put out a ton of mobile suits, but plenty of variants at that.
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>>11075689
Has someone made one of these for the Zeta family tree?
>>
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>>11077720
No tree, just a lineup.
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>>11075658
Gelgoog vs Gundam

>0.84G vs 0.93G
>1.5s turn time vs 1.1s turn time
>steel vs. luna titanium

Yea, superior in every way. Sure
>>
>>11075689
Interesting thing to note. In the anime the G3 either didn't exist or it was never piloted/tested.

When Amuro gets the MC upgrade the engineer who designed it specifically mentions it's never been tested before, so they don't know how it will actually affect the Gundam's reaction time other than theoretically. This conflicts with the G3's profile, which states that it's supposed to be a testbed for the MC. So either they never even tested the G-3 or it was just a theoretical design
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>>11077739
It would have been neat to see the Zeta's design evolve like that throughout Zeta and ZZ. Do you have the non-gif version?
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>>11077766

G3 is from the novels, it exists to replace the RX 78 2, which is destroyed, along with Char's Zaku, at Texas Colony.
>>
>>11077662
>>11077627
>>11077600
>>11077597

Zeon wasn't trying to re-invent the wheel. What they did made perfect sense when you understand the progression of the OYW.

Zaku I (Anti-Warship/Fighter): Before the War, the Zaku is primarily meant to serve as a replacement for the classic space fighter within the Zeon military. Federation doesn't think much of it, and Zeon is focusing on making the Zaku I work as opposed to the future.

Zaku II (Improved AW/AF Capacities + basic Anti-MS Warfare): Zeon is aware that it's going to need a main war weapon. It also knows the federation will develop anti-MS weapons and mobile suits of their own. Not knowing what these will be like, it institutes what measures it can (Melee weapon, Shield, Improved close-combat capacity)

At this point, the Federation then spends all its time developing a set of Mobile Suits specifically meant to counteract the Zaku II. Not only does it develope MS with the advantage of knowing Zeon's design, but they have both superior armor and beam weaponry while being mass produceable. The Federation doesn't need to change strategies because they started at the best possible point.

Dom/High Mobility Zaku and Aquatic models (Anti-MS warfare): Not having access to the E-Cap technology to use beam rifles and beam guns, Zeon goes with what it can do. High performance units using rockets and mega particle cannons when they can. They use this to buy time for them to eventually

Gelgoog/Act Zaku: Catch up with the Federation in terms of MS tech and warfare. See the Zaku Cannon for this too.
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>>11076744
Ugh. I don't understand why some people are so confused about Minovsky particles. They're only used in combat conditions and don't stick around for very long. People in UC can have smart phones and wi-fi all they want, the only time there would be Minovsky interference would be when your colony is being invaded, at which point checking your spacebook is probably the last thing on your mind. And the colonies could just use a laser link for inter-colony and colony-earth communication. I imagine every colony or cluster of colonies has it's own intranet as well.
>>
>>11077778
Meanwhile Federation does the opposite and has an opposite problem. Starting from having better armor/better weapons and being mass produceable they get cocky. So they didn't really develop much in the way of high performance models and variability among GM's as compared to Zeon units. So what you actually see in the side materials is, well.. Federation aces complain because they have nothing to trade up to from their GM once they've mastered it. And that they lose out to units made for specific terrain over everything like the GM. The reason this doesn't make a huge difference is by this time, Zeon has lost most pilots that could make proper use of their high performance models.
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>>11077774
It originates from the novel. It also exists separately in MSV as a proposed variant that is supposed to exist in the anime's continuity. In the MSV profile it's stated the G3 Gundam was put together from the wrecked parts of the two other Gundams that were at Side 7, then given the MC upgrade to serve as a test unit. Unfortunately, this doesn't really fly with the anime, though Sunrise apparently thinks MSV is among the closest things to official without being actually official
>>
>>11077788
>Federation aces complain because they have nothing to trade up to from their GM once they've mastered it.

Yeah, but if we ARE counting side materials there is the GM sniper custom, sniper II, command, etc. Which were made with higher performance and intended for ace pilots to use.
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>>11077796
GM sniper custom was developed specifically because there was nothing better. From it's Gundam Wikia.

"As the RGM-79 was adopted as the main MS for the Federation Forces, its performance paled in comparison to Zeon machines due to preference for improved production efficiency and lower costs. Requests were submitted by disgruntled skilled pilots for the development of high-end machines. The Sniper Custom is one of the few machines produced in response to vocal complaints."
>>
>>11077519
>>11077543
They may or may not have won, but it would certainly have helped them. Zeon's obsession with specialized units, and especially super-weapons, is meant to mirror Germany's similar obsession, instead of just concentrating on putting all their industrial capacity into mass producing something that worked reasonably well.
>>
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>>11077766
Seeing as MSV MS have, according to Sunrise, crossed over to the realm of officiality, I'd say the G3 was indeed built. It's actually seen aboard the Blanc Rival at the end of Gundam: the Ride, so it's possible that it was deployed around the same time the RX-78-2 got the Magnetic coating upgrade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOC1JyAcIqQ
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>>11077770
The gif was made from scans of the Zeta Gundam Master Archive databook. Download here:

http://www.packupload.com/0CY2XBK5A7G
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>>11077846
Just tells me I have to wait before downloading the file
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>>11077862
Ugh, I think the website is broken. Try this torrent.

http://archive-scans.blogspot.hk/2014/01/master-file-mobilesuit-book-set.html
>>
I'm pretty sure Zanscare/League Militaire mechs would wreck the shit out of any Pre-Unicorn mech, and high-tier stuff like teh V2 and the Zanspine would crush the ZZ and the Unicorn.
>>
>>11077907

Well, not shit dude. The lowliest of Crossbone grunts could fly circles around Nu, and Sazabi.
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>>11075672
That too, but you can also tell in ways like that one scene in Destiny where Kira took the Strike Rouge and struggled against a bunch of ZAKU Warriors. Yes, Kira was outnumbered, and holding back as usual, but it showed just how far Mobile Suit technology had come since the beginning of SEED.
>>
>>11077739
I like how they gave the Zeta new wings and attached some sort of booster to the shield for atmospheric flight. I want a model of that
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>>11077967

Kira's strike Rouge in that scene had been pretty heavily modded since the last war though, seeing as it could fly in atmosphere
>>
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>>11076873
The only two reasons Zeon had more amphibious suits and mobile armors is because they didnt put resources in war ships for water based combat. They had subs capable of carrying mobile suits but they seemed to rely on aerial and land transport most of the time. Fat Uncles, Gaw, etc etc hell goufs would ride small bombers as well.

Federation had a surplus of subs, uboats war ships air craft carriers etc. planes, tanks and helicopters were still effective to a degree as well as depth charges and the such. But we rarely saw them used in this manor as Zeon seemed to prefer stealth with their amphibious suits.

You can track land and air targets far out but water targets tracking can only go so far out. Add minosky particles or however the hell you spell it and it dense it further. So most of Feddies amphibious suits were meant solely for guard duty, Its why we see a few escorting carriers which would be the easy target out of the ships and harbors. They had suits dedicated to harbor protection as well such as modified gun cannons with the missile launchers, torpedo launchers etc. Then standard suits would defend the interior of the base out ward.

The attacks were mostly hit and run or base capture with the zgoks, acguy etc sneaking up and hitting the base, then ground units move int while all forces focus on the water surrounded areas. Jaburo is another example, while ground forces drop in from the air the Federation had no clue the zgoks, and acguy had gotten into the interior through the water channels. Shit they got the fat ass Zock in without being detected, By the time they knew it was there Gms were being downed left and right, Char was chest punching a Gm in front of Amuro etc.

Another famous battle was in blue destiny, hygoggs, and a gogg. Then the attack on the base launching NT-1 alex with the zgok e and hygoggs. Oh and balls in the water yo not even joking.
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>>11076732
What manga is this from?
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>>11075980
Where the fuck did all of this money come from anyway? And thank god the workers in the mobile suit factories never went on strike or someone would get F'd in the A.
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>>11077968
According to the blurb, that was briefly added by Karaba between Kilimanjaro and Dakar to test them out for the Zeta Plus.
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>>11078092
I think it's either bande dessine or the UC0094 manga
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>>11078597
>thinking you can strike at a government-run facility manufacturing critical military materiel during wartime

Yeah, that's how you get executed for treason.
>>
>>11076000
You mean besides mudrock?
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>>11078723
And Delta Plus

Well, anything with enough thrust can hover, Nemo and Rick Dias were doing that in Jaburo
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>>11078723

And GM S Armor.
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>>11075680
>The biggest things to take into consideration when trying to measure performance differences is is two things; 1 weapon assortment, and 2. Acceleration. Those are the two main areas of comparison. There are smaller areas, like number of verniers and armor materials, but the former is only somewhat important when considering battlefield movement and the latter is made irrelevant thanks to beam weapons.

It's really sorta odd they still spend a fair amount of effort on armor considering how little it matters.
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>>11075941

Don't have to be great if you're fighting kids.
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>>11077583

Weren't a lot of them made with assaulting the Feddie headquarters specifically in mind?
>>
How good is Delta plus compared to the original Zeta in terms of performance?

Could a Delta Plus take Zeta Gundam?
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>>11078723
Mudrock, armored gm or whatever it was in zeonic front, which was basically the child of desert/gm striker and a dom tropen. heavier head armor below the visor, it was given better leg intakes or whatever it is to prolong its hover ability based off thrust alone. Doms seemed to have a more hover craft based design with its feet.

The whole reason from what I can tell that Dom even hovered is due to how much armor it has, I have yet to see any footage of one walking. Gundam battle operations gives a good idea of how it would handle too. normal hover isnt much to right home about and easy to maneuver slower then most other suits running. When legs are 100% damage it sputters and can barely move at all making the dom a sitting duck and if you thrust it almost falls over, and can only do its spin dodge without falling down but thats due to its main thrusters not the hover mechanism. When you thrust it feels like it looks in the anime vary fast and glides, but cutting the thrust off the heft of the machine causes it to keep going from momentum even if your not moving the suit.

And like anything that hovers if it bounces into anything without preparing for it it will bounce off like a air hockey puck. Mudrock needed it due to it having more armor but if it needs to its still capable of walking Its just going to be somewhere between gundam and guncannon speed on foot. The armored Gm mentioned before can also shut off its hover feature which seems to have been installed to help in desert regions as the heft of the armor and sand slowed desert Gm down considerably. I want to say its faster then a dom too but that is only because armor rating is way less then a Dom, yet its speed gave it an advantage with its bazooka and rail gun. But you usually see it outfitted with other gm based weapons.

I want to say Pale rider is capable of hovering but it seems agile enough just running as the base leg that of Mudrock and gm sniper 2.
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>>11077648
The Unicorn is also almost one of a kind. It's a very expensive suit in almost every aspect of it. Past that it would be too expensive to give every suit it's own I-field generator like that.
>>
>>11078887
>Pale Rider seems capable of hovering
It shouldn't. The Pale Rider is basically if the GM and the Gundam Alex had a baby with lasers strapped to its forearms.
>Dom talk
Pretty much this to the T. As Gundam games got a bit heavier and more realistic in the PS3 age, the Dom began maintaining its momentum in the style of actual hovercraft. It's a great feature, but the Dom becomes a bit of a chore in maps that have lots of MS-stopping objects. Honestly, that's how it should be.
>>
>>11078603
Thanks!
>>
>>11078959
huh I am kinda surprised I assumed that it was more from mudrock as most of its traits are from the other side stories games and Alex was its own thing. Hades was based off exam, body is mostly gm sniper 2 which supposedly surpassed the gundam stats at the time to the point that nemos were based off it or something to that note. arm beam guns and shoulder joints not to mention the booster tanks were from unit 4 and 5 while the gatling gun was from 5. If its truely from alex then what did it have to do with mudrock or zeonic front. Wasnt the game supposed to intersect with each side story?
>>
>>11078959
Didn't Alex have hover ability as well thanks to the improved leg thrusters?
>>
>>11079181
>Isn't is a Mudrock though?
Unless I'm missing something here, both the Mudrock and the Pale Rider are designed in the image of the Alex, which is where those boosters on the legs and those boosters on the back of the legs hail from. In the case of the Pale Rider, the forearm weapons hail from Units 4 and 5, but the forearm weapons seem to be a link back to the Alex as well.

As far as I'm aware the Alex predates all of those designs, and so its defining features tend to get around.
>>11079208
I don't know? It probably had enough thrust to maintain a hover without Chobham.
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>>11078723
Anything with thrusters can technically hover, but not even Mudrock or even Gryps era MS can hover quite like the Dom can. Dom was built especially for hovering.

In fact, the hovering function of the Mudrock is only really focused on in Zeonic Front. It was probably the game's way of showcasing it's high mobility, given the limitations of the gameplay ("We'll just make it move like a Dom.") Any mobile suit with thrusters can do it, like Bernie in 0080. Mudrock probably doesn't function much differently from most mobile suits, and just has thrusters powerful enough to compensate for the extra weaponry.
>>
It's not that many MS can't hover, it's that many MS can't hover for LONG

Dom use turbofan mounted on it's legs, which is vastly more efficient than rocket thruster under the influence of gravity and atmosphere.

Theoretically, you don't even need propellant because just taking large mass of air should be enough. (dom does require fuel however, perhaps due to it's heavy mass requiring greater thrust)
>>
>>11079434
Turbofan/Gas turbine engines require fuel to keep itself running. If you simply have the reactor drive the fan, it's extremely inefficient.
>>
>>11076513
At the start of the series, the Gundam was super advanced compared to anything else at the time, it crapped all over zakus and the like, Amuro was completely reliant on the Gundam's superiority to win.

As the war progressed, Newer Zeon suits, like the Dom, started being much more of a match for the Gundam, and by the time Gelgoos, Big Zam, and Zeong are around, the Gundam has become something pretty unique, but not nesseccarily powerful by raw stats. However, Amuro grows as a pilot, and by the time all this advanced Zeon stuff starts showing up, it really is more that Amuro is pulling the weight, with the gundam strugling to keep up.

The Alex, for example, was intended to be a mid-to-late season upgrade for Amuro, because the RX-78-2 was starting to become outclassed.

Also remember to take into account Amuro awakening as a newtype halfway through the series.
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>>11076019
Damned Federation
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>>11079229
I think the main problem with just using thrusters as opposed to a foot with hover craft padding and a turbine. Mudrock had additional thrusters on the leg thruster and it could swivel allowing more stability. Mudrock and Palerider predate Alex in term of timeline Mudrock could have influenced Alex though as it was closer to being finished then Alex. Mudrock was used first in november incomplete while Alex was in testing stages in December when it was attacked. So if Pale Rider is seen in battle before November it could mean it test bed the design.
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>>11078887
> I have yet to see any footage of one walking.

You briefly see one stepping off the elevator at the Zeon base in episode 10 of 08th MS Team, but like you said I've never seen one operate a full walk cycle.
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>>11079746
It would have to be able to walk regardless. It would need to be able to move around inside a base without the use of its hovering function, as the effect would cause some undesired problems.

More like than not though, the Dom's walking speed is very slow.
>>
>>11079763
>More like than not though, the Dom's walking speed is very slow.
And stiff, I'm imagining guy in bombsuit
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>>11078072
>You can track land and air targets far out but water targets tracking can only go so far out.

The US has been blasting the seabed with explosion for a few decades to take care of their Sonarian needs and to kill as many of those creepy fish as possible.
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>>11075672
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>>11079396
Could the Mudrock work in space?
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>>11083595
yes
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>>11083595
It's designed and depicted as land use. It'd be like the GP01 before proper calibration for space use.
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>>11083629
I cannot read that.
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>>11083630
Not necessarily true, it's merely only SEEN on earth. All things considered, it's vernier placement is all perfectly optimized for zero G and with the right balancers it'd probably work just as well as any of the other RX-78 family members.
>>
>>11075896

>Gustav Karl looked like a fatty suit, so I don't know how it would hold up against an agile ace unit in the Earth's gravity.

Gustav Karl is on par with Gundam types spec wise according to novel
>>
>>11079396

>we'll never know what the full potential of the mudrock was

;__;
>>
>>11075930
fucking lold
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>>11077784
>best source of energy ever
>only used in mobile suits
Are you saying we still use outdated energy and haven't transferred over to Minovsky-everything?
>>
>>11083778
GP01 was also physically capable of space use but lacked the proper space use data. I'm not saying it doesn't have the verniers, I'm just saying it may not be calibrated for space use.

G Generation gives the Mudrock a B rank for space terrain, anyway.
>>
>>11084170
Minovsky particles are simply a side product of the fusion reactors. Chances are most civilian areas have no need for fusion, or they just have something to capture or otherwise filter the particles as they come out. Or better yet, simply place the power stations in somewhat distant areas from population centers.

Not to mention, in battle, battleships deliberately spread minovsky particles to achieve a certain density. This isn't something that's just devastating on its own, it's something that's controlled by the militaries for specific purposes
>>
>>11084170
>he thinks all minovsky reactors are self contained all-in-one stealth/ECM/EMP devices

fuck no, of course they use minovsky reactors for everything they fit in
>>
>>11084190
That's what I'm saying, why would only mobile suits have the next generation in atomic energy?
>>11084195
>thinking I think that
Where'd you come to that conclusion?
>>
>>11084170
>only used in mobile suits

Ships also use minovski reactors, just bigger ones I believe. Hence the "Ultracompact" part of "Ultracompact fusion reactor" that MS use. I would imagine if it works great they use them for stuff like colonies as well.
>>
>>11084282
That's what I'm saying, I'm posing the question to prove that he did not have a correct answer. The point I'm trying to make is that it would be ridiculous for only mobile suits to have such a versatile energy source.
>>
>>11078760
To be even fairer, heavy armor goes out of vogue and is swapped for smaller, more maneuverable suits.
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