Why does the Gundam universe hate normal ships so much in favor of retarded mech suits?
To me it's like Star Wars, take away the jedis and I'd be in love with it.
>take away the core element of the franchise that makes said franchise unique and I would like it
it doesnt though. Naval ships have many roles in warfare and they mostly go uncredited for their deeds
>near shore support
They are probably better than fighter planes
Don't lie OP, even if you took the mechs out of Gundam you still wouldn't love it because there'd still be all the newtype stuff for you to hate. After all, if you hate the Jedi in Star Wars, there's very little chance you like the newtype stuff in Gundam, given that they're much of the same stuff.
Why not just read some regular ol' military stuff if that's what you want, because it sounds like that's what you want really. Maybe some normal sci-fi if you just want spaceship battles.
Alright let's try to decipher whatever inane point you're trying to get across.
>Why does the Gundam universe hate normal ships so much in favor of retarded mech suits?
So I'm going to assume you mean why does Gundam focus on mechs instead of ship to ship combat, although you may be talking about design in which case you're just plain retarded.
There's a few reasons why gundam focuses on mechs more than ships. The primary reason is that it sells. Japan likes robots, and sunrise is really good at making interesting robots. Why change what isn't broken.
Another reason is that mech are much more personal. It's easier to connect with the hardships of a pilot under fire, than it is with some people typing on computers on a bridge. That's not to say that a battleship show can't be done well, LotGH proved that well enough, but it's easier to identify with characters and there specific craft, especially when it comes to kids. For example:
>This is Amuro. He is the main character, and he pilots the main mobile suit.
>This is Fa. She is a supporting character who pilots the supporting craft.
You also have the fact that having arms and legs is infinitely more useful in space than basic fixed wing aircraft.
But that's exactly what I do anon. I love naval ships and major in physics so I can work on one one day. All the books I have are on warfare.
Games I play are things like Freespace and Homeworld. I love the jargon and chatter that accompanies the gameplay.
I just think Star Wars would have a lot more potential if it had less space magic. It would be more like Macross if it was, and Macross is actually good.
Then why have them in the show at all? Why not just Gundams?
Good point OP. Macross is a pretty good show, but unfortunately Gundam isnt trying to get that audience. The people that watch Gundam dont care about tactics and specs, they watch it for the personal struggle and cool space suit battles because it gives them a boner.
Nothing wrong with your tastes or there's, it's just different preferences.
Good point anon. Gundam is a pretty good show, but unfortunately Macross isnt trying to get that audience. The people that watch Macross dont care about tactics and specs, they watch it for the shipping and waifu wars because it gives them a boner.
Nothing wrong with your tastes or there's, it's just different preferences.
>To me it's like Star Wars, take away the jedis and I'd be in love with it.
The fact that you dislike Star Wars because of Jedi is so inane that it makes my head hurt, but that's a post for another time.
I don't think you're referencing newtypes because that would be a bit of a non sequitur, so I'm going to assume you're talking about mechs as out of place in the gundam universe. Honestly if you're so autistic that you can't handle the fact that they put arms and legs on a weapons platform,
items that are exceptionally useful when dealing with the hazards of space travel, then not only are you on the wrong god damn board, but you appear have missed out on everything that makes UC fantastic. The characters, the factions, the world building. Almost all of it can be taken on it's own without the inclusion of mechs. Mobile Suit combat is just the icing on the delicious Gundam cake.
Also did I mention that you are complain about the inclusion of mechs
CALLED /m/ - MECHA
>why have aircraft carriers when you can just fly planes everywere
> Why not just Gundams?
Presumably because the mobile suits need ships to ferry them around. Which is basically what those ships do in the show. They have guns for the sake of defense and support, but that's really their only roles.
> The people that watch Gundam dont care about tactics
Wait...you think Macross or it's fans care about tactics? When has that ever been a priority in a Macross show?
> they watch it for the personal struggle and cool space suit battles because it gives them a boner.
That sounds a lot more like the Macross I know than anything about tactics or specs. There's still differences between Macross and Gundam, but those aren't the differences to me. Macross is classicly: love triangles, music and dog-fighting using transforming robo-jets. While it does tend to focus more on squads over individuals, it's not a huge amount more focus and there's certainly no real use of tactics in the shows.
Not really, since music still plays a much, much bigger role in any given Macross show than in any given Gundam show, Zeta included.
You don't understand anon, he wants every given major franchise to be exactly the same so that he has loads of identical mush to watch.
Yes, if you remove all major plot points and break shows down to their most basic descriptions,
and ignore the fact that music doesn't play a major role in zetathe show are identical.
Star Fox should be expanded upon a lot more. I love the aesthetics of the ships.
That's not what we're saying at all. Zeta had good themes, but they didn't play any part in the overall story structure any more than than, say, 0079 or Star Wars. The power of music is a core element of the Macross franchise, to the point that the cast of each show includes at least one idol singer in some fashion, aside from Zero. Even then, singing is always present in some form. In Zeta, it's all background tracks.
>yfw Star Fox team amputated their legs to decrease g-force
>yfw every fighter pilot in Star Fox is an amputee
They can; it's just that battleships don't make money during peacetime. Not to mention, the military's not interested in saving on far cheaper extended range cannon round technologies for the 16in (compared to their failed attempts to R&D super-tiny EGRMs for the too-small 5in), and would rather pay for 1 million dollar tomahawks and rarely use them for fire support due to their cost and the fact that they always make other nations antsy that one of them may be carrying a low-yield nuclear warhead. Unlike the 16in, which not only doesn't have anymore nuclear shells, but also has the benefit of continuous barrage at a fraction of the cost.
But I digress. Mobile Suits make the show, with the titular Gundams taking center stage. All ships exist to either provide support or job as one pilot takes out a ship of 100+ men and women with a few well-placed strikes.
Ah. So that's why the Navy and Congress are scrambling for a naval fire support ship and have dictated that the USS Iowa and the USS Wisconsin still be kept at a state of semi-readiness should the need arise.
Macross is a show for closet j-pop fans to say they watch it for the "military jets and tactics" to hide the fact they just want to watch Minmay sing how her boyfriendo is a piroto.
Are the Gundam Unicorn novels a good introduction into the franchise? I have never seen/read a Gundam besides GBF. As I understand it, Unicorn takes place in the same timeline as the original MSG, but it's also the most expansive timeline so I'm not sure how important that is.
Watch the first episode of MS IGLOO if you want your answer. It's the Gundam version of naval warfare moving from cannons to airplanes.
>play mass effect
>why am I walking and shooting?
>why can't I control the ship?
>why does mass effect hate starfighters in favor of being a retarded rpg?
>this should be more like freespace, then I would like it.
I don't get this way of thinking at all.
>why goes Gundam focus on Gundams on not anything that's not gundam
>I just think Star Wars would have a lot more potential if it had less space magic. It would be more like Macross if it was, and Macross is actually good.
>less space magic
>Macross is actually good.
Guessing you skipped out on Macross 7?
Cause if Jedi drive you nuts, M7 should have caused you to burst a blood vessel
>You also have the fact that having arms and legs is infinitely more useful in space than basic fixed wing aircraft.
>Either being on a spacecraft
>and have dictated that the USS Iowa and the USS Wisconsin still be kept at a state of semi-readiness should the need arise.
That bullshit is only because the Naval brass is full with dumbshit nostalgia-obsessed people who still believe that battleships have any sort of role in a modern-day Navy.
It's the opposite of the Air Force, which emphasizes cutting edge technology, regardless if it actually serves any purpose: see the F-22 and JSF, plus their obsession to kill the A-10.
Mass-shifting to change your orientation.
AND I WILL PISTOL-WHIP THE FIRST PERSON WHO MENTIONS FUCKING FLYWHEELS, UNDERSTOOD?!. Limbs also serve to move around in gravity (walking)
Maybe, but the story as a whole would improve significantly. Same for Gundam.
When you eliminate bullshit like "the Force" or "Newtype powers", the writers have to really think how to resolve the conflicts they put their characters in without cheating.
>Maybe, but the story as a whole would improve significantly. Same for Gundam.
Bad writing is bad writing; removing a core element of the story isn't going to change the quality of the work, just how the story unfolds.
>When you eliminate bullshit like "the Force" or "Newtype powers", the writers have to really think how to resolve the conflicts they put their characters in without cheating.
Except those abilities are rarely used as a 'get out of jail' free card.
In fact, a lot of the time, Newtype abilities make more problems than they solve. They're a big driving force for a lot of the warfare in the 0079-0096 era.
Fuck, after 0079, being a Newtype is practically a guarantee that your life will more than likely end in pain and misery.
Even in Star Wars, the Force rarely ever 'wins' everything.
The only thing close to a major victory it can be said to have is with the Death Star, and even then, Han saves Luke's ass from Vader first (and if the Force was as omniscient and easy fix as you suggest, Vader would have seen Han coming and avoided that.)
Even RotJ isn't really a victory of the Force so much as it's Vader regaining his humanity of his own choice.
Really, did you actually watch these, or did you just read up on the subjects and think they sounded like bullshit?
Have you...even seen the original Star Wars movies?
There, the Force was spiritual in nature and it was discussed in a similar way, and it was used primarily to communicate with or listen to the spirits of the deceased and occasionally sense things, pull in lightsabers, or levitate an X-Wing once. The only plot element involving the Force in an action-based context that is outstanding is Luke firing proton torpedoes into the Death Star's exhaust port without the use of the targeting computer, and even then, that's basically it.
And even in the prequel trilogy, the Force wasn't used as an easy way to resolve conflict in the plot as much as it was a 'Hey, check out these nifty acrobatics and special effects!' button.
Newtype powers don't resolve every single conflict, either.
And also, watching Gundam for the story?
Pasting a screenshot of an article clearly written by a pretentious idiot does not make your argument more sound. It only makes you seem lacking any actual reasoning for your opinion. If you disagree, please explain how
> the story as a whole would improve significantly.
if you remove the Force from SW or MSes from Gundam, without resorting to circular reasoning or your personal aesthetic preferences that have no bearing on story in the first place.
Furthermore, removing the Force from SW would really only make it significantly less interesting. What do we have left without it ? Let's see, we have a small band of rebels fighting the evil government. Oh boy, really making a unique, and memorable plot. Speaking of unique, and memorable, the removal of the force would also necessitate the removal, or complete rewrite of almost every memorable character in the plot.
> The only thing close to a major victory it can be said to have is with the Death Star
Even then, you just have the targeting computer work, and, ta-da, you have the exact same resolution, only, in a less interesting story,
This. And they weren't necessarily better for it.
>Newtype powers don't resolve every single conflict, either.
Except for the most important ones: Kamille defeating The O, Amuro pushing back Axis with the overloaded Psycoframe, Banagher (and Riddhe) in the Unicorns...
> article written by a pretentious idiot
The funny thing is the guy who wrote it has nothing against that particular element and wasn't advocating that such things should never be used - just that people should be aware of what they're using and when it's a good idea to use it.
> Let's see, we have a small band of rebels fighting the evil government. Oh boy, really making a unique, and memorable plot.
It's not a matter of "what", but "how".
>Speaking of unique, and memorable, the removal of the force would also necessitate the removal, or complete rewrite of almost every memorable character in the plot.
And a much better story would be because of that.
>Even then, you just have the targeting computer work, and, ta-da, you have the exact same resolution
Did you watch the movie? That targeting computer doesn't work for such a precise shot. Only The Plot can pull that off.
What is 'every single conflict', anon? Can you not read?
And even then, it's not like they weren't foreshadowed to an extent, what with the psychoframe in CCA or the nature of the Unicorn series in Unicorn that harness the exact same technology. What, would you rather Amuro ineffectually tried to push Axis back with his MS' thrusters, dooming the world to nuclear winter, or that Banagher and Riddhe just stood there in front of the colony laser?
>And a much better story would be because of that.
How can you guarantee, with absolute certainty, that the story would be better without that.
Especially given the series/writer in question.
>And a much better story would be because of that.
Yes, I'm sure the removal of everything that's lead it to be memorable enough a film to survive as a pop culture icon for three, and a half decades would have done wonders to making it a better film
> Did you watch the movie? That targeting computer doesn't work for such a precise shot. Only The Plot can pull that off.
And if there was no force, the targeting computer would have been precise enough to make the shot.
>>Speaking of unique, and memorable, the removal of the force would also necessitate the removal, or complete rewrite of almost every memorable character in the plot.
>And a much better story would be because of that.
Can you bother to explain why?
And furthermore, can you bother to explain why Gundam would be better without mobile suits, one of the core aspects of the entire franchise, other than "I sure do love ships because I read a lot about them and warfare, why don't Japanese people make an anime for me, damn it!"?
>What, would you rather Amuro ineffectually tried to push Axis back with his MS' thrusters, dooming the world to nuclear winter, or that Banagher and Riddhe just stood there in front of the colony laser?
The only reason either of those work as conclusive finales is because the plot (Newtype powers) says so. The characters act merely as conduits for the story.
Let's say Lando Bell's nuke idea had worked as plan, and the Axis chunk posed to threat to Earth, and wasn't pulled in by Earth's gravity, essentially, what this would do is to remove the suspense from Char, and Amuro's final fight. The world has already been saved, Neo Zeon has already lost, it doesn't really matter if Amuro can beat him or not.
>can you bother to explain why Gundam would be better without mobile suits,
I am not OP.
Although reducing the emphasis on these wonder-weapons and make smaller craft like spaceships and other fighters be useful, rather than job and explode.
My problem is that Newtype powers is an easy way to make poor plotting, because it's a vague force that can do anything the writer needs to resolve the conflict at that moment.
Let's clear something up: the Amuro (Nu)/Char (Sazabi) battle was irrelevant. So was the Nu individually. Axis was pushed back when a number of GM III and Jegan pilots scrambled to help pushing.
The combined effort overloaded the Nu's psycoframe, creating what Unicorn called "Axis Shock": a raw burst of Newtype power that was powerful enough to push Axis back. In a very real sense, it's a deus ex machina finale.
> Let's clear something up: the Amuro (Nu)/Char (Sazabi) battle was irrelevant
Seeing as a giant rock would have sent Earth into a nuclear winter had Char killed Amuro, I'm gonna go ahead, and say that's bullshit.
> In a very real sense, it's a deus ex machina finale.
No! Really? And all this time I've been thinking it was clear strategy and human effort that saved the day in the end. How could I have been so deluded. Thank you OP, for opening my eyes to this stunning revelation. It's changed the way I think forever.
Like I asked, would an ending that took all tension, and consequence out of the final confrontation between the protagonist, and antagonist have been better ?
It's cool if you don't like fantasy, but to say then inherently make anything they appear in worse is ignorant.
My issue is that people are being stupid enough to defend a plot crutch so blatantly transparent as Newtype powers are treated in Gundam. Telepathy? Okay, pass. However, it's used as a way for the author to determine the plot without actually plotting. It's lazy, poor writing.
>Like I asked, would an ending that took all tension, and consequence out of the final confrontation between the protagonist, and antagonist have been better?
The stakes CCA presents go far beyond Char having a dick-measuring contest with Amuro.
Okay, how would you do it, oh wise one? The whole point of being a Newtype is not having psychic powers, but better understanding each other. That's why there's so much love shit in Zeta-young Newtypes confuse the understanding with love.
It's symbolism, pure and simple, as >>10992409 pointed out. It's not so much that newtype powers can be converted in to physical energy as that humans working together can overcome even something like an astronomical impactor. You might not like the execution, but the message is as plain as day.
Yeah, they also hinged on the massive fucking asteroid that Char was planning to drop on the Earth, a fair bit.
Having the nuclear warhead detonation separation plan go off without a hitch, leaving the severed Axis just hanging there inert in space, would just be so thrilling as Amuro beats the shit out of Char. The suspense and tension would be through the stratosphere.
That's extremely problematic. A story has to work outside what it can be subjectively interpreted out of it. The Birth of a Nation is a landmark in film-making history, but its message is all about putting down niggers and that the Ku Klux Klan are the true heroes of the United States.
> A story has to work outside what it can be subjectively interpreted out of it
It does. It works as a piece of science-fiction (or science-fantasy if you prefer), where newtype powers save the day. It's not the greatest piece of art ever put to film or anything, but no-one ever said it was.
>Furthermore, removing the Force from SW would really only make it significantly less interesting. What do we have left without it ? Let's see, we have a small band of rebels fighting the evil government in a vast space opera setting filled with countless unusual aliens and striking settings in a massive special effects extravanza. And also Han Solo is there too.
fixed that for you.
Star Wars without Jedi would basically be Firefly with aliens instead of the chinese, and I'm ok with that.
Wait a sec...
I thought the consensus was that aliens and magic turned Firefly into Outlaw Star.
Also, your analogy forgets the droids...plus the fact Firefly didn't exactly have much for dogfighting.
So, it would be nothing to write home about, and receive a "meh" reboot? And why are Firefags so obsessesed with that show? Was it teally that good, or has the hype trickled down into Tumblr?
In part it's because the show has something of the James Dean effect going for it.
Started off on a largely good place and got cut down before it ever got the chance to make some truly bad episodes and mistakes.
So there's this heightened/idealized image of the series that fails to take into account half the reason it's as well remembered as it is is because there's so little of it.
Also, if we're gonna compare settings, Firefly is just the Mk-II version of Joss Whedon's Alien Resurrection ideas with a younger Ripley, human psychopaths in place of xenomorphs, and awkwardly grafted Chinese motifs.
And the fact that Firefly wasn't actually about a band of rebels fighting anything. The crew of the Firefly ran from any encounter with the government in the show because their ship had no real weapons and was unlikely to ever gain any. They'd probably have come in to conflict with the government eventually, but the main conflict seemed to be concerned with that one corporation, not anything to do with the government, which the show seemed to be content to leave as the victor, for better or worse.
Lucas borrowed more from it than his "inspiration" of Flash Gordon. De Lorentis did a fine job with that. Campy as hell, but hey. Dune is perfect as a work of mind play. But can never be really visually portrayed accurately.
>Let's see, we have a small band of rebels fighting the evil government.
>Implying that the Sith did not save the Republic the Senate was working hard on dismantling for their individual gain.
I bet you believe in mystic force powers granted by bacterial infection too.
>Current Battlestar Galactica without robots would basically be a show about Space Negros attacking white people.
>and the biggest threath to white people's survival are black people who can pass as white
Have Jorodowsky advise. Anno produce or direct.
Maybe Tomino produce too.
You think Eva is something...people would be arguing about this for a century.
>yfw a character like Shinji is Paul Atredies.
I want more mechs and spaceships
You keep posting this quote but I don't think you fully understand its implications between "newtypes=bad".
Books, video games, movies and TV shows have to be written. Even those that are "based on a true story" have to take creative liberties for the sake of depicting a narrative suited to the format, and many fictional stories include fantastical elements. The inclusion of these elements, however, is not a lazy copout in and of itself. Yes, on occasion it comes to pass that "a wizard did it" and such an element becomes the reasoning behind an occurrence, but it's just as likely that a story grounded entirely in reality has events occur entirely on the premise of "chance", because as it turns out, our strict reality is not entirely conducive to exciting situations. Mistakes are made, people are in the right place at the wrong time, people make decisions with widespread effects- all of these things have to be manufactured, and it's the skill of the author that determines their quality more than the means they use to bring it about.
What you consistently propose is to remove the engine from a car so the driver has to put thought into getting from point A to point B, and for some reason you believe they'll invent a revolutionary new form of transportation rather than either do what repairs they can to make what they have work or throw it away and replace it with something nearly identical.