Well that was a gross oversimplification of different arguments I've heard. But theft is immoral, hurting others is immoral.
You could argue that suicide under certain circumstances isn't immoral when it's a shared conclusion like you're terminally ill and rapidly approaching a quality of life that would be considered unacceptable even with professional care.
All other paths should be exhausted before taking a final solution anyway.
suicide is self murder. it's morally wrong and, moreover, it's pointless. life always gets better, you just need to make it better. believe in yourself and the universe itself will acknowledge and support you. it gets better :)
>>7691327 >>7691347 For that counterexample to work you'd have to tell me which ethical system you're working in and whether or not it interprets 'steal' as a meaningful moral act. Nihilism, on the other hand, implies that your post is, well, a meaningless string of mumbo-jumbo that doesn't really cut it as a valid counterexample to >>7691321.
>>7691249 Care to define suicide before we go into this? Because until we do it will be just like the last NEET discussion where the NEETs had two definitions of NEET and used one to make positive claims and used the other as a shield against criticism.
>>7691422 Suffering is usually better than the prospect of nothing at all, or eternal damnation depending on how you look at things. At least you are experiencing something, no matter how grumpy you are.
>>7691473 >Usually (in the first world) the suffering is temporary or fixable That is a myth that keeps on propagating by nitwits like you. And you're of course also begging the question in assuming that 'the person in question' has it all wrong, and not vice versa.
>>7691500 What fucking suffering can one have that is not fixable in the first world? Please list me one that isn't in extremely isolated cases or depression caused (which can be treated, even if you are against antidepressants).
>>7691504 a strong dislike of your day to day life, total lack of positive experiences and joy, consuming bitterness and sorrow all day long, no future prospects. there are plenty of ways to experience suffering.
>>7691520 And in what way is that unfixable? I know its cliche to just say "find a hobby", but really if you art stuck in a circle of self-pity you won't ever see a way out of it. Plenty of people both smarter and dumber than you have decided that suicide is not worth it, so why not you?
Life's purpose is to propagate itself, nothing more. Just as the humble single cell bacteria propagates itself with no grand purpose, so do higher organisms. Our consciousness arises from the same electrical impulses that govern the behavior of lesser life forms, it's just that we have more elaborate ways to respond to stimuli. Perhaps our purpose is to propagate ourselves through the stars.
Knowing this doesn't mean you can't enjoy life for what it is.
>>7691529 >I know its cliche to just say "find a hobby" Not only it is a cliche but it is a dumb suggestion. It is evident that you can't seem to empathise and/or conceive of what goes through a depressed person's mind. To a depressed mind, nothing is interesting or worth picking up as a hobby. Just wait till it hits you and you'll know how it feels.
>>7691536 If you completely shatter your leg you can't just walk it off, you need real and intensive medical attention. In the same way some people have such strongly abnormal brains that medication is necessary to bring the person closer to some level of normalcy. For example if one has schizophrenia one needs medication in order to live any semblance of a healthy life.
In the same way depression often arises from a malfunctioning brain and medication is needed to get the person to a state where they are able to support themselves. These drugs can sometimes be unhelpful, and not everyone requires them but calling them categorically fake crutches is as absurd as calling the crutches of the person with a shattered leg fake crutches.
>>7691546 > what if immortality gets figured out in my lifetime You're delusional; not even the most optimistic researchers in this area--an controversial area at that--would predict it to be solved in the next 100 years.
>>7691564 That is not a valid analogy because when you hop off those antidepressants you'd go straight back to being depressed. This time, however, the depression would be of a greater intensity than it was before the usage of antidepressants. Your leg heals just fine; your brain does not.
From what I understand its not a once depressed always depressed kind of deal. Its a bad state to be in obviously, but you're not exactly going to always be sad about everything and have a lack of fulfilment for your entire life.
This may sound extraordinarily callous (in fact it is), but what you must do is read Nietzsche while hanging upside down from the branch of a tree with your toes, like one of those monkeys with really long toes. Tthen you must eat a lot of junk-food and sugary food and basically be as gluttonous as possible without feeling any remorse, and this you can justify to yourself by remembering that Gurdjieff, Nietzsche, Francis Bacon, and the Buddha all emphasized the importance of having a good appetite and eating sufficiently big meals. You must look your friend in the eye when he asks you how you are doing in a pitying tone of voice (for he sees the sadness in your face and eyes), and you must growl, "Fuck you," meanwhile thinking to yourself, "Morals don't exist ... everything is the WILL-TO-POWER!!!!"
Then you must flap your arms like a bird and run away from your friend, screaming loudly, "YOU SHALL NEVER CASTRATE ME!!!!!"
And remember: morals don't exist. But God exists and He would be very angry and very disappointed if you committed suicide, if anything I've learned about religion is true.
>>7691252 >>7691345 >>7691600 What if one wants to be as immoral as possible, and therefore commits suicide as a purposeful "fuck you" against everyone around them? These all presupposed that fixed morals exist, that everyone has an obligation to everyone around them, more or less ... what if one purposely wants to kill oneself as a means of gaining revenge on all the assholes around one? It is the ultimate form of cruelty, is it not? Sadistic homicidal desires and pent-up rage taken out cruelly, masochistically on the self --- making other people suffer the excruciating pangs of GUILT and UTTER REMORSE as a result --- is not suicide the ultimate psychological warfare tactic, the ballsiest, gutsiest, most hate-filled and angry thing one can do to the people around them? It's almost gloriously heroic and warlike ... like a suicide bomber ...
>>7691581 If ones mental illness (say in the case of schizophrenia) requires drugs for you to function there is no reason not to take them. In many instances of depression it is treatable, where the drugs are used as a tool to give the patient a level of control that they can start the hard road to recovery. Without the drugs a sufficiently depressed person won't try to get out of depression. Not all people who go off the drugs become heavily depressed again. The claim that depression comes back with greater intensity after drugs isn't universal either.
How about a different comparison. One could compare some sort of a degenerative muscle disease to mental illness. One will need drugs and muscle therapy to help combat the disease. They literally need the drugs. I don't think anyone would describe drugs in this case as a false crutch. They will never get better, but the use of drugs in this case is no different from a case like schizophrenia, a disease with no cure that gets progressively worse.
>>7691642 Yes but what if the underground man was actually HAPPY?
Then you'd have SUPERMAN...
I postulate that most suicidal depression is anger at outward circumstances/other people besides oneself, redirected towards oneself; one feels guilty and represses oneself because they're afraid to unleash the anger at the true people they're angry at --- whether it's someone who molested them in their childhood, shitty or abusive parents, even just the general mass of people one has to deal w/ in contemporary life who don't necessarily care about you and feel no obligation towards you, thus can easily act like an asshole towards you without caring about your psychological circumstances. Co-workers. Students. People in stores. On the street. A sense of loneliness while in the midst of a huge crowd, the erosion of the community/family feeling so important for human beings, where everyone in a community knows each other...
Either way, the person is repressed due to the shitty "morals" of the people around them, vapid robots and beasts who've never felt suicidal depression, so they just throw out their bullshit, selfish reason that it's "taking your presence away from the people who love you (even if they show their love by constantly being ironic, never being sincere, and acting like assholes towards you)".
Have any of you ever felt homicidal rage and contempt without acting on it, let yourself feel the emotion but kept your body in check? feel the emotion FULLY?
It's a very liberating experience, actually. Take away the anger against yourself and think about who you're really angry at --- that's a very good cure for depression.
Guys, if you're having suicidal thoughts, take them seriously and call 1800SUICIDE. This is a serious life or death issue and you should absolutely not go through it alone. Trust me, I've been there before and it gets better. If you need any personal advice, feel free to PM me.
>>7691566 That's true but middle ground researches have predicted we'd reach artificial general intelligence technology within the next 50 years, which subsequently upgrades to artificial super intelligence in less than 25 after that.
Meaning that within my lifetime it's quite reasonable to think a machine brain will be built with the ability to improve it's own thinking ability, and as such can solve many problems.
>>7691790 Hmmm... it's like an 1850 Chinaman addicted to opium being optimistic about potential advances in opium refinement to create the much cheaper heroin ... "transhumanism" is the complete denial of humanity. I don't know why it is given that name. According to my knowledge of prefixes, it should be called "subhumanism".
Why do you want to be a machine instead of a human being?
>>7691849 Are you referring to the experience of "feeling one with everything"?
I used to be able to feel this, then I started taking testosterone pills and became a sane human being who doesn't want to be a mindless bee in a beehive, a little piece in the machine, blissful as this experience may be. I've heard that Satan can make his followers feel one with all humanity and all the universe, too...
Although I do not mean to imply you are intentionally a Satanist, of course; perhaps just unintentionally, a little, of course, my good, dear, and very respected sir.
>>7691816 Humanity is pretty vague isn't it? It tends to just be some nebulous force of good that means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.
Prosthetic limbs aren't a bad thing. Medications for mental disorders aren't a bad thing. Modern mediums of entertainment aren't a bad thing. These are all ways in which people augment the human experience in one way or another, all of them direct upgrades. A silicon overmind solving our problems is the next step in evolution now that we've deviated from the path nature has set for us. It's a step towards making the human species a permanent and satisfied resident of this universe.
>>7691880 I'm saying you aren't new or unique by saying that you have no purpose or meaning and wallowing in self pity.
There is nothing new under the sun. You aren't in some special person who suddenly has impossible to get out of depression. You aren't some logical genius for deciding that suicide is apparently a great idea because your "suffering" is so great. Give me a break.
Like am I actually on the /lit/ board where these arguments are taking place? I thought you guys liked philosophy.
>>7691837 happiness is a level of discomfort. the least negative state is death. At any moment a living organism is incurring a thermodynamic deficit. But as a human I am made overmuch familiar with these negative returns. When I am happy I am merely expressing relief that the current moment could have been much much worse.
>>7691900 nobody here said they were special. Where do you normies get these answers? Do you scrape them out of the raingutter of human rhetoric. Any amount of suffering of any kind is absurd to endure. Its only biological drives that will try to convince you otherwise. We are all just NPC's in Roller-Coaster Tycoon.
Any suffering I endure I deal with because life has parts that are pretty sick too. Forgive me for finding enjoyment in literature and art and food and so many other things because you, the smart nihilist man, told me that my life is pointless and I am actually just an NPC.
In what way is your life more fulfilling than mine if all you do is mope all day on /lit/?
If people have the right to destroy their own property, and people are the sole owners of their bodies, it stands to reason that they have the right to destroy their bodies.
Any argument that attempts to say that suicide is immoral must either make the claim that we do not have the right to destroy our own property or that we do not own our bodies, demonstrating the truth of either of those claims would likely demonstrate suicide to be immoral.
>>7691949 We can also use that mind to rationalize suicide when there is nothing to enjoy. For my money "propogation" is actually a ludicrous gamble on a whole human life and therefore actually a tremendous and arguably nonpareil evil
>>7691983 What he said wasn't nihilistic at all. If anything it's more existentialist. I think you're equivocating enjoyment and fulfillment with meaning. One can find meaning in being totally bored, unfulfilled, and mopey (see: pessimism, or The Pale King)
>>7692165 okay let me clarify. You can have all of your responsibilities and discomforts nullified. Is that better? What is bad about nullity and how is it worse than getting the bends while cave-diving?
>>7692179 >You can have all of your responsibilities and discomforts nullified. Is that better? No.
>What is bad about nullity and how is it worse than getting the bends while cave-diving? Nothing, ı'm not making a value judgement, it's you that's making it. I'm simply pointing out to you that making a value judgement about nothing doesn't make any sense (because there's nothing to judge), so it can't be said to be better or worse than something. If you judge dying to be better than to go on living, you're comparing your present condition to a projected one, not to death.
>>7692315 you are the one using phonemes to represent whole words on a literature board. I am saying that is bad math. The outcome of adding two numbers together is not the basis by which we derive their relative value.
>>7692351 I believe victory over suffering is impossible because even if you have millions of dollars you can still feel paranoia and ennui. Furthermore death is a much more sure thing than trying to overcome all your turmoil through determination.
>>7692376 Sure but I don't have one and such a thing is a remote possibility. But this is only speaking in practical terms. Theoretically I would find suicide a worthwhile end in that case as well. I think living is just begging the question
>>7691290 If they advocate for it then they have to do it or they aren't even following their supposed beliefs or can be though of as saying 'sure you guys should kill yourselves but I need to live because what I say doesn't apply to me.
>>7692408 What is reading comprehension? It's like a straight edge faggot telling others to shoot up til they can't find a decent vein or an upstanding man telling others to steal and maim as they see fit.
The thought of death makes me overjoyed. I get tingly when thinking about looking life in the face, all the bullshit people worry about (not getting jobs, pressures of being "ambitious", status, professionalism, feeling inadequate, competition), and heaving a great and sonorous "I WILL NOT ACCEPT!" from my little lungs.
My parents, before deciding to conceive me, sat down and discussed the possibility of their future child being insane, hurt, enduring suffering, and ultimately, killing itself. They made sure to understand these things and rightly so; bringing life into the world is a big deal, and all must be considered if you are to be responsible and rational. They talked to me about suicide when I turned 18, they told to me try and hold out if I ever felt the need to kill myself, explaining how they have found happiness and wealth in life and how I can as well. They did this to let assure me that I should never feel guilty about taking my own life. Of course they love me, but they take me as a responsible adult with a mind of his own, and if I am to kill myself, it is just.
I always viewed life like a boring movie at the cinema. You can walk out any time if you'd like and there isn't really much to staying to see the whole thing. Some people, especially on here, take pride in being alive and of course feel smug when their peers talk about suicide. People like these just cannot understand why anyone else in the world isn't exactly like they are; how wonderful to think death with rid me of these sociopaths!
Anyways, I go through life fearless. I have no anxiety what so ever ,and I never feel trapped or cornered since I have this big key to the exit whenever things get tiring. I already feel a little done with life and I am only 20. Most people seem to be driven to live simply to feel praise and status, that constant driving force in men that they like to call ambition. The possibility of Dick waving presides over all suffering
>>7692527 >Anyways, I go through life fearless. I have no anxiety what so ever ,and I never feel trapped or cornered since I have this big key to the exit whenever things get tiring.
I used to have to same view, but when I was 17 I tried to hang myself and my parents caught me. I wasn't even sad, just super bored. Nothing was fun or interesting I wanted to go to sleep forever because the effort I put into breathing did not seem worth it.
The stupidest thing I thought was that my parents did not care about me. They both became so terribly sad that I knew I could never try to do it again. I still don't think my life is worth breathing for, but I have to carry on for the people who care about me.
>>7691616 L O L this post is r-to-the-a-to-the-n-to-the-d-o-m!!! RANDOM!!! This is totally epic and I have written it down in the book I keep next to my computer of all epic and random posts I see. I was laughing so H A R D bro, especially at the part where you talk about flapping your arms like a bird and screaming! I was ROFLing (Rolling On the Floor Laughing) for sure, I haven't laughed that hard since I watched the latest Doctor Who Youtube Poop, because I like Doctor Who and I like Youtube Poop and it was really funny! Please keep it up with these totally epic posts, anon. You're totally boss! Pwnage!
>>7692762 It's really not that simple. Let's take your definition. By that definition if you are driving along a cliff and because of the glare of the sun you break the barrier and fall to your death, then this is suicide. The driver is the agent that performs the action resulting in their death. It is literally them killing them self. But no one is going to consider an accidental, unwanted, unprovoked (in the sense that the driver was not doing anything out of the ordinary to create the possibility of the death) a suicide.
Killing =/= murder. In the same way, while not a part of the word, in the west we use the word suicide to mean wrongful self killing. Self killing that is not justified. In this sense there can never be an argument for suicide being correct. However if we take the broader approach and treat suicide like killing as opposed to murder then we very quickly run into problems.
Suicide involves complex interweaving of action (or perhaps inaction or some combination), proximity of time, severity of danger, awareness of outcomes and very importantly intention. Was it suicide when Jesus permitted his capture and execution? Is it suicide if one dies from cancer from smoking, the whole time knowing that this can happen? Is it suicide if someone likes running red lights for the thrill of it? Did Leonidas commit suicide? Is it suicide if one allows a friend to kill you? If you die by your own hand to avoid torture followed by death, is that suicide?
This is why I'm asking for a definition. This conversation won't go anywhere until we have some framework for what the word means.
>>7692893 We're talking about the usual kind that goes into government statistics. Willingly shooting yourself in the head, willingly jumping off a tall building, willingly hanging yourself... All of these with the intention of ending your life.
>>7692895 A definition with such a limited scope for intention (and I'm using intention in the Anscombian sense) is going to make a justification or condemnation of any of those cases you made impossible.
How am I meant to make a case about someone hanging themselves if I don't know why they did it? It would be like asking me to say whether or not driving your car is morally justified. It might be. I don't know. For all I know when you say drive your car you men drive it into a bunch of people.
The reason why it's important is because I think suicide can be justified but not all suicides are justified. Therefore I need a stronger definition otherwise it one cannot judge any suicide.
>>7691252 you've missed the point completely. >>7691263 case in point. anons selfish desire to not hurt those he loves overrides his desire for death.
>>7691297 this. no act is inherently immoral. the morality of an action requires context. for example, it is moral to kill in the service of your ideals and justice condones it so long as it also serves the interests of the community and is sanctioned by the community. in war for example, it is moral to kill another person and put yourself in mortal peril.
>>7691358 you can still pursue your will to power, the will to life beyond death. people just an hero because they feel completely ineffectual.
>>7691546 wrong. a fear of death does not paralyze you. your fear of never doing anything worthwhile in your short time is what paralyzes you. being a fuckup now but being immortal isnt going to stop you from being a fuckup. a thousand years from now you'll still be frogposting.
>>7691626 sounds like you should an hero anon. if that's the most imaginative answer you can come up with. >2016 >not even blowing your brains out casting a pink mist over a kindergarten in a clown wig an act in itself is amoral. like a leaf blowing in the wind. the morality of an action requires motivated intent. this is why we have different levels of murder. planning it ahead of time doing it in the spur of the moment doing something stupid that leads to the death of another but you didnt actually intend to kill them and the insanity plea whereby you can not be convicted of a crime because you cannot understand what you are doing.
>>7691249 "Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer. When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront. Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act. There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite. But if it comes to clear ideas and the intelligent meaning of things, then there is much more rational and philosophic truth in the burial at the cross-roads and the stake driven through the body, than in Mr. Archer's suicidal automatic machines. There is a meaning in burying the suicide apart. The man's crime is different from other crimes -- for it makes even crimes impossible."
It's more of an emotional argument, but how the fuck can you guys seriously argue for suicide? What's wrong with you fucking people? You're basically convincing people who are already weak and need help the most that it's alright to stop trying to improve themselves and give up. The people arguing that suicide is ok likely aren't the ones that are going to actually kill themselves, and don't have to face the consequences of their position. If you argue for suicide, you basically have blood on your hands
remember that suicide is exceedingly unlikely friendos, only 0.01 PERCENT of the population does it (about).
so next time you think "This is shit I want to kill myself" instead think "This is shit, I want to kill myself, but that's highly unlikely and I'm probably going to end up moping for the rest of my life or eventually getting over this while perhaps having attempted and failed at a suicide"!
Unless you're really committed to suicide don't waste your time, you wouldn't waste your time fantasising about the lattery either right?
>>7692979 Of course. I'd wager most people here arguing in favor of suicide are Schopenhauerian antinatalists or Linkola-esque radical deep ecologists. The human race is a pack of glorified sewer rats, unfortunately endowed with cunning and malice, and our recorded history is a catalogue of self-inflicted atrocities. Google "scaphism" you historically ignorant fuckwit.
And do you think your feelings, your "deep," "intimate," "appreciations" of the natural world offer anything to those in abject poverty, abject misery? The orphaned children who fucking make a living picking through trash heaps in Mumbai? Please.
I pray (for what it's worth) that we destroy ourselves before we can infect the cosmos with out bile. Even in a nuclear holocaust: the world itself would be a perfectly reasonable sacrifice to nip in the bud the horrors we would assuredly inflict on the other sentient beings of the cosmos
>>7691928 there is more to happiness than the absence of pain or worry, from a logical standpoint - a pleasant surprise is an example of a situation that you wouldn't have been able to have anxiety over beforehand. Beyond that, there is not anything after death, and it is only a one time thing to be alive, suffering or not It is a gift to be able to suffer, to have an identity, and to be gifted with the faculties to think about life's worth. beyond that, the longer you avoid death, the more likely it is that you will have another happy moment, and that chance alone is worth all the suffering in the interim.
>>7692900 >>7692901 addiction is a habit that has a negative impact on your quality of life. you are suggesting that living necessarily must have a negative impact on life, and that is just blatantly untrue, as evidenced by all the happy people out there.
(Summa theologica, question 5, article 4, reply to objection 3): "Non-being is desirable not of itself but only accidentally-that is, in so far as the removal of an evil, which can only be removed by non-being, is desirable. Now the removal of an evil cannot be desirable except so far as this evil deprives a thing of some being. Therefor being is desirable of itself, and non-being only accidentally..."
Do you think those children picking through trash heaps in mumbai have some special right to suicide then? Doesn't that assertion revolve around -your- feelings?
However I would agree that with sufficient help mental illness can be helped majorly, it's just that most psychologists are hacks that don't care anymore and throw a reference to a psychiatrist at you in order to make you go away.
>>7692599 Nothing, ı find the convention of capitalizing the first person pronoun to be problematic, as it mixes with "l" in some fonts and creates an ambiguity regarding capitalization when this doesn't happen with other pronouns, but given the it's capitalized so as to be more noticeable, writing it as "i" doesn't sit well either; so ı opted for a middle ground in "ı", which is lower case, but at the same time paradoxically prominent due to its lack of point (implications intended). Plus, it's a way to be recognizible without having a name.
Well, as an exercise, let's consider a (paraphrased) Kantian objection.
According to Kant in order to be truly free we need to operate according to principles we have chosen ourselves rather than in accordance with feelings and needs and sensations which we did not ourselves choose. This necessitates operating under a law we choose for ourselves, rather than merely acting on the impulse of experience and pleasure/pain. But once we disregard everything which we did not ourselves choose or elect, we are only left with reason. This reliance on reason and reason alone to the exclusion of any contingent aspects of our experience leads to the derivation of the categorical imperative. Reason is equally accessible to all human beings, which means any law you elect for yourself must logically be a maxim which any other human being could also rightfully adopt. This in turn implies that we need to regard all persons as ends rather than means, for any maxim that would permit me to regard another person as a means rather than an end would be contradictory if applied to myself; the very line of logic engaged in developing a law to give myself would be dismissing the self-same line of logic engaged in developing a law to give myself.
But now that we are regarding all persons including myself as ends rather than means, that actually implies I have substantially less moral right to myself than is popularly assumed. The reason I cannot dismiss the worth of someone else's life is very same maxim which prohibits me from discarding my own. It also means, surprisingly, that there is no such thing as a free choice to commit suicide, as such a decision cannot be derived from a law that you gave yourselves, but is always contingent on factors that you did not choose.
That would seem to me to suggest that the life of myself or any other subject is not being evaluated as an end or purpose or value-giving-thing, but rather as a means or object or thing-to-which-value-is-ascribed.
I haven't read Stirner but I would rather modestly suggest to you Stirner is no Kantian. Like all sufficiently mature philosophers he probably had an opinion(s) on Kant's framework but I can't tell you if his criticisms are legit or not. As it is I don't see how Stirner as articulated here doesn't directly fall into operating under what Kant would term hereonymous thinking, or living entirely under the whim of fleeting contingent experiences and impulses that we did not elect to have, and therefore operating without any robust sense of free will.
Well before answering it is important to inquire whether you find Kant's account of free will convincing or not. His thoughts on morality are critically contingent on his beliefs concerning free will. Do you find it plausible that we are only ever truly operating of our own will if we act in accordance with principles we have chosen for ourselves, rather than following the biological or psychological impulses that come to us naturally? If a bear gets hungry, it eats; if it gets tired, sleeps; if it feels threatened, it attacks. There's nothing in that experience like what we think of when we consider free will, and in Kant's opinion the only way we can transcend this is to use reason and reason alone to constructs principles and laws and maxims for ourselves to live by.
>>7695432 >If a bear gets hungry, it eats; if it gets tired, sleeps; if it feels threatened, it attacks. That seems to me more a case of lack of forecast, rather than will; the bear does as it does because it cannot project his situation further into the future than its instinct permits, rather than due to some choice.
I watched a nature doc the other day and noticed that they're always about fucking. Animals just having sex and passing on their genes. It's their purpose in life, and was ours not too long ago, but now that procreation is no longer humanity's raison d'être, we're confused and alone. We multiplied and became too conscious of ourselves and so we lost our purpose in life, which set us free to do anything we please. Kill yourself or don't kill yourself, in the end we're going to die anyway and i for one would live a lifetime of suffering than to head for an early grave, just in case this is the only life we're given.
>>7691349 >you must make yourself suffer and subject others (through bringing hem into existence) for this arbitrary reason right here yes the propagation of life if you believe there is any purpose to life you're hopelessly retarded you can speak of the purpose of tools, like if I wanted to craft a dildo to fuck your mother with it would have a purpose if youre saying that a rather arbitrary attribute assigned to certain things (life) somehow has a purpose, you really need to reconsider your positions
Muh chemical imbalance is a grossly oversimplified and inaccurate meme.
The etiology of depression is /not/ anywhere close to being precisely described. We don't even know what the mechanism of action is for SSRI's (We know superficially what they do, but not why they seem to work).
For example, my treatment plan over the past two years has been multi-factorial.
Antidepressants are used to help 'take the edge off' of symptoms.
CBT and other therapies help to deconstruct negative thinking patterns and dynamics associated with depression.
Lifestyle changes with the aim of normalizing sleep and diet, as well as the addition of regular exercise.
Finally, a social support network is built up and regular progress through life in the form of work or education or just anything is begun.
I feel like I've completely overhauled my body and mind from the atom up and I couldn't be happier desu.
Going back to your broken leg, antidepressants/therapy are like a splint for the mind, provided you truly engage with it.
There are only arguments anti or pro living. So it's a individual battle. The wast majority of people, including c/lit/s, will find ease in arguing pro-life, even if that argument is cowardice or not wanting to hurt relatives.
If any1 here is contemplating suicide, the mere fact that you haven't done it yet, means that you have argued yourself that life is worth living for whatever reason. So, just keep what you are doing, and work towards a better life so you don't fall even deeper to the point where you want to commit suicide.
>>7696293 >the mere fact that you haven't done it yet, means that you have argued yourself that life is worth living for whatever reason Doesn't have to be true, dying hurts and some people aren't so miserable that they want to go through that pain.
>>7691249 none, kill yourself. but more seriously the argument of potentiality is quite easy to pull, no that it would sway anyone in this position as such decision tend to be far more "rational", at the very least in the eyes of the person deciding than what people conceive it as.
>>7696148 No, but that's purely dependent on the capacity it has to make a decision; i.e. animals can't be judged moral or amoral because they don't have "choice". But my question is whether this applies to humans, if our sense of "choice" stems only from memory and projectivity or it's something else.
To sleep, perchance to Dream; aye, there's the rub, For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come, When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause. There's the respect That makes Calamity of so long life:
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