What arguments actually exist against suicide?

Well there's stuff that's more or less like "life is a shared experience and it's immoral to take a piece of it for your own selfish desires"

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>>7691252
right in the feels.. i want off this carousel, it's absolute madness.
but I'm afraid to hurt the ones I love.

>>7691252
>it's immoral because it just is
What else you got?

Life is fuckin epic bro

>>7691249
inb4 camus

that fucking hack is the biggest meme on this board

>>7691268

Well that was a gross oversimplification of different arguments I've heard. But theft is immoral, hurting others is immoral.

You could argue that suicide under certain circumstances isn't immoral when it's a shared conclusion like you're terminally ill and rapidly approaching a quality of life that would be considered unacceptable even with professional care.

All other paths should be exhausted before taking a final solution anyway.

What gets me is how even the most pessimistic writers just kind of side-step suicide as non-viable. "

>>7691249
If you commit suicide you might miss out on the inception of a good argument against suicide.

I think its mostly why you are committing suicide than actually committing suicide

None

No argument for either

>>7691252
>brought into the world by other peoples selfish desires
>must not kill myself because i will hurt the very same people that brought me into existence
kindergarten logic/10

>>7691321

That's like saying it's okay to steal if someone stole from you first.

>>7691327
If you're stealing it back from the people who stole from you, then why should it be wrong?

suicide is self murder. it's morally wrong and, moreover, it's pointless. life always gets better, you just need to make it better. believe in yourself and the universe itself will acknowledge and support you. it gets better :)

>>7691333

Nothing is ever that simple and you have other forms of recourse and not using those puts you more in the wrong than someone who didn't have a choice.

>>7691249

Life's own purpose is to propagate itself. If you kill yourself without offspring, you'd be committing the ultimate sin against life itself.

>>7691349
So being a faggot = suicide?

>>7691354

Not at all, you can still better the species without reproducing yourself. Plus it's not like you can't have offspring if you're gay.

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>>7691306
this

>>7691345
Fuck you

>>7691327
No it isn't. Bringing a human being into existence is totally different from your scenario because both thieves had already been born.

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>>7691345
>life always gets better
>believe in yourself

I hope this is bait

>>7691327
>>7691347
For that counterexample to work you'd have to tell me which ethical system you're working in and whether or not it interprets 'steal' as a meaningful moral act. Nihilism, on the other hand, implies that your post is, well, a meaningless string of mumbo-jumbo that doesn't really cut it as a valid counterexample to >>7691321.

not /lit/

>>7691249
What's the argument FOR suicide? Suicide is itself nothing more than a meme

>>7691415
Suffering

>>7691249
Care to define suicide before we go into this? Because until we do it will be just like the last NEET discussion where the NEETs had two definitions of NEET and used one to make positive claims and used the other as a shield against criticism.

>>7691252
So if I'm totally alone, then it becomes moral?
Like not even figurative, but literally.
Like if I had a log cabin or something.

Or I was backpacking through rural China alone.

At the moment, dying is an inevitability. If you really want to die, wait a little while and see if you can solve your problems. It's not like you're going to miss your opportunity to die.

>>7691433
>wait a little while
You meant "wait and suffer a bunch of decades", right? Why would anyone endure pain and suffering? You're missing the point of why people are motivated by suicide.

>>7691422
Suffering is usually better than the prospect of nothing at all, or eternal damnation depending on how you look at things. At least you are experiencing something, no matter how grumpy you are.

>>7691354

Being a faggot is a sin against life itself, yes.

>>7691459
What pain and suffering? To what degree are we talking about? Usually (in the first world) the suffering is temporary or fixable but does not seem that way to the person in that position.

>>7691349
So you don't have a problem with being a mindless machine?

>>7691473
>Usually (in the first world) the suffering is temporary or fixable
That is a myth that keeps on propagating by nitwits like you. And you're of course also begging the question in assuming that 'the person in question' has it all wrong, and not vice versa.

man i wish i could kill myself. im too much of a pussy.

>>7691500
What fucking suffering can one have that is not fixable in the first world? Please list me one that isn't in extremely isolated cases or depression caused (which can be treated, even if you are against antidepressants).

>>7691504
a strong dislike of your day to day life, total lack of positive experiences and joy, consuming bitterness and sorrow all day long, no future prospects. there are plenty of ways to experience suffering.

>>7691520
And in what way is that unfixable? I know its cliche to just say "find a hobby", but really if you art stuck in a circle of self-pity you won't ever see a way out of it. Plenty of people both smarter and dumber than you have decided that suicide is not worth it, so why not you?

>>7691504
>being dependant on fake crutches such as antidepressants and other drugs
No thanks, I'll just stick to depression

>>7691249
purgary

>>7691504
he couldn't get no punani, that is one problem only solvable in the third world

>>7691474

Mindless machine? I don't see it as that.

Life's purpose is to propagate itself, nothing more. Just as the humble single cell bacteria propagates itself with no grand purpose, so do higher organisms. Our consciousness arises from the same electrical impulses that govern the behavior of lesser life forms, it's just that we have more elaborate ways to respond to stimuli. Perhaps our purpose is to propagate ourselves through the stars.

Knowing this doesn't mean you can't enjoy life for what it is.

>>7691459
No, I get it, I contemplate suicide frequently. However, I'm afraid the next scientific discovery to fix one of my big problems comes out the day after I shoot myself.

Like, fuck, what if immortality gets figured out in my lifetime? The idea of eternity makes just about any problems I could have instantly insignificant.

>>7691529
>I know its cliche to just say "find a hobby"
Not only it is a cliche but it is a dumb suggestion. It is evident that you can't seem to empathise and/or conceive of what goes through a depressed person's mind. To a depressed mind, nothing is interesting or worth picking up as a hobby. Just wait till it hits you and you'll know how it feels.

>>7691529
i have hobbies, or at least interests i engage in, and still have all of those symptoms. hobbies give you something to do and to care about and can be nice, but they don't fix much.

>>7691536
If you completely shatter your leg you can't just walk it off, you need real and intensive medical attention. In the same way some people have such strongly abnormal brains that medication is necessary to bring the person closer to some level of normalcy. For example if one has schizophrenia one needs medication in order to live any semblance of a healthy life.

In the same way depression often arises from a malfunctioning brain and medication is needed to get the person to a state where they are able to support themselves. These drugs can sometimes be unhelpful, and not everyone requires them but calling them categorically fake crutches is as absurd as calling the crutches of the person with a shattered leg fake crutches.

>>7691546
> what if immortality gets figured out in my lifetime
You're delusional; not even the most optimistic researchers in this area--an controversial area at that--would predict it to be solved in the next 100 years.

>>7691564
That is not a valid analogy because when you hop off those antidepressants you'd go straight back to being depressed. This time, however, the depression would be of a greater intensity than it was before the usage of antidepressants. Your leg heals just fine; your brain does not.

>>7691377
It seems to have practical implications in that you can avoid a lifetime of nuisances or flat out anguish

>>7691558

From what I understand its not a once depressed always depressed kind of deal. Its a bad state to be in obviously, but you're not exactly going to always be sad about everything and have a lack of fulfilment for your entire life.

>Just wait till it hits you

Its not man. Keep dreaming.

>>7691249
Hurts others around you.
You are being selfish with leaving such a burden on everyone else.

This may sound extraordinarily callous (in fact it is), but what you must do is read Nietzsche while hanging upside down from the branch of a tree with your toes, like one of those monkeys with really long toes. Tthen you must eat a lot of junk-food and sugary food and basically be as gluttonous as possible without feeling any remorse, and this you can justify to yourself by remembering that Gurdjieff, Nietzsche, Francis Bacon, and the Buddha all emphasized the importance of having a good appetite and eating sufficiently big meals. You must look your friend in the eye when he asks you how you are doing in a pitying tone of voice (for he sees the sadness in your face and eyes), and you must growl, "Fuck you," meanwhile thinking to yourself, "Morals don't exist ... everything is the WILL-TO-POWER!!!!"

Then you must flap your arms like a bird and run away from your friend, screaming loudly, "YOU SHALL NEVER CASTRATE ME!!!!!"

And remember: morals don't exist. But God exists and He would be very angry and very disappointed if you committed suicide, if anything I've learned about religion is true.

Then you must watch this video:

http://sentimentalcorp.org/eyes_of_randy_prozac/eye_1/eye_1.html

without being scared and closing it after the first 10 seconds, or too bored to watch it all through; for, in all honesty, OP, it will do wonders for your psychological well-being.

In conclusion:

Good luck, op. I love you.

>>7691252
>>7691345
>>7691600
What if one wants to be as immoral as possible, and therefore commits suicide as a purposeful "fuck you" against everyone around them? These all presupposed that fixed morals exist, that everyone has an obligation to everyone around them, more or less ... what if one purposely wants to kill oneself as a means of gaining revenge on all the assholes around one? It is the ultimate form of cruelty, is it not? Sadistic homicidal desires and pent-up rage taken out cruelly, masochistically on the self --- making other people suffer the excruciating pangs of GUILT and UTTER REMORSE as a result --- is not suicide the ultimate psychological warfare tactic, the ballsiest, gutsiest, most hate-filled and angry thing one can do to the people around them? It's almost gloriously heroic and warlike ... like a suicide bomber ...

>>7691345
I think maybe even murdering someone can be moral depending on how equitable their life is. How bad can killing a junkie be?

If you kill yourself, then you are disposing of a property that isn't yours by default, thus making it an illegal and immoral act.

>>7691581
If ones mental illness (say in the case of schizophrenia) requires drugs for you to function there is no reason not to take them. In many instances of depression it is treatable, where the drugs are used as a tool to give the patient a level of control that they can start the hard road to recovery. Without the drugs a sufficiently depressed person won't try to get out of depression. Not all people who go off the drugs become heavily depressed again. The claim that depression comes back with greater intensity after drugs isn't universal either.

How about a different comparison. One could compare some sort of a degenerative muscle disease to mental illness. One will need drugs and muscle therapy to help combat the disease. They literally need the drugs. I don't think anyone would describe drugs in this case as a false crutch. They will never get better, but the use of drugs in this case is no different from a case like schizophrenia, a disease with no cure that gets progressively worse.

>>7691345
Kek, as much as I abhor suicide you're talking shit.

>>7691626
Literally the underground man.

If someone is a failure of a human being and claims they intended to be like that they are still a failure.

>>7691600
Meanwhile you have the heavy burden of existing solely for other's sake.

>>7691467
>suffering is better than nothing at all

Kind of like thousands of dollars of debt is better than having 0 dollars in the bank

>>7691634
What kind of bullshit indoctrination did you go to believe this?

>>7691642
Yes but what if the underground man was actually HAPPY?

Then you'd have SUPERMAN...

I postulate that most suicidal depression is anger at outward circumstances/other people besides oneself, redirected towards oneself; one feels guilty and represses oneself because they're afraid to unleash the anger at the true people they're angry at --- whether it's someone who molested them in their childhood, shitty or abusive parents, even just the general mass of people one has to deal w/ in contemporary life who don't necessarily care about you and feel no obligation towards you, thus can easily act like an asshole towards you without caring about your psychological circumstances. Co-workers. Students. People in stores. On the street. A sense of loneliness while in the midst of a huge crowd, the erosion of the community/family feeling so important for human beings, where everyone in a community knows each other...

Either way, the person is repressed due to the shitty "morals" of the people around them, vapid robots and beasts who've never felt suicidal depression, so they just throw out their bullshit, selfish reason that it's "taking your presence away from the people who love you (even if they show their love by constantly being ironic, never being sincere, and acting like assholes towards you)".

Have any of you ever felt homicidal rage and contempt without acting on it, let yourself feel the emotion but kept your body in check? feel the emotion FULLY?

It's a very liberating experience, actually. Take away the anger against yourself and think about who you're really angry at --- that's a very good cure for depression.

>>7691649
I never said I believed such a thing. I'm only answering op's post. Dumbcunt.

Guys, if you're having suicidal thoughts, take them seriously and call 1800SUICIDE. This is a serious life or death issue and you should absolutely not go through it alone. Trust me, I've been there before and it gets better. If you need any personal advice, feel free to PM me.

>>7691600

Yuck.

>>7691669
>it gets better
>It got better for me, therefore it will get better for everyone

>PM me
Where do you think you are

>>7691504
>implying neurosis can be treated

>>7691682
I don't appreciate your negative attitude, pal.

>>7691544
a bacterium is a mindless machine

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People who would not kill others have no right to kill themselves.

new Mount and Blade isn't out yet

>>7691734
And what if one WOULD kill others?

Therefore, they would have the right to kill themselves, according to your reasoning.

>>7691734
So I should go full /supremegentleman/ then?

It's pointless

>>7691738
It's called Bannerlord, my lord

>>7691536
>carefully and methodically engineered substances that fix chemical imbalances in the brain
>fake crutches
good one m8

>>7691544
>Our consciousness arises from the same electrical impulses...
absolutely false, consciousness is undoubtedly from beyond the body

>>7691566
That's true but middle ground researches have predicted we'd reach artificial general intelligence technology within the next 50 years, which subsequently upgrades to artificial super intelligence in less than 25 after that.

Meaning that within my lifetime it's quite reasonable to think a machine brain will be built with the ability to improve it's own thinking ability, and as such can solve many problems.

Optimism, try it.

>>7691763
it extinguishes all forms of discomfort at once

>>7691790
Hmmm... it's like an 1850 Chinaman addicted to opium being optimistic about potential advances in opium refinement to create the much cheaper heroin ... "transhumanism" is the complete denial of humanity. I don't know why it is given that name. According to my knowledge of prefixes, it should be called "subhumanism".

Why do you want to be a machine instead of a human being?

Premise 1: Infinite Jest's pleasures are infinite.
Premise 2: Life is finite.

Conclusion/Premise: Infinite Jest will never stop being fun and instructive to read.

Ultimate Conclusion: One shouldn't kill oneself because one can read Infinite Jest.

>>7691794
Discomfort is part existence. Suicide doesn't change that. It doesn't make you happy, which is the opposite to discomfort.

>>7691564
in either case suicide is the most rational course of action

>>7691816
>Why do you want to be a machine instead of a human being?

The Many: What is a drop of rain, compared to the storm? What is a thought, compared to the mind? Our unity is full of wonder which your tiny individualism cannot even conceive.

>>7691739
Yes. But let me clarify, by that ı don't mean killing in a general sense, but rather killing another in the same situation as you, i.e. to love yourself as your neighbour.

Do you justify another killing you, you killing another, or another killing a third person, in this situation? Then go ahead.

>>7691756
Define what you mean by that.

>>7691634
>Stirner
>you are not your own property

Come back when you get the memes right

>>7691849
Are you referring to the experience of "feeling one with everything"?

I used to be able to feel this, then I started taking testosterone pills and became a sane human being who doesn't want to be a mindless bee in a beehive, a little piece in the machine, blissful as this experience may be. I've heard that Satan can make his followers feel one with all humanity and all the universe, too...

Although I do not mean to imply you are intentionally a Satanist, of course; perhaps just unintentionally, a little, of course, my good, dear, and very respected sir.

>>7691529
>Plenty of people both smarter and dumber than you have decided that suicide is not worth it so why not you?

Argumentum Ad Populum.

This point is just a logical fallacy and is backed by no merit or evidence, not to mention the broad generalities of this statement.

>>7691816
Humanity is pretty vague isn't it? It tends to just be some nebulous force of good that means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

Prosthetic limbs aren't a bad thing. Medications for mental disorders aren't a bad thing. Modern mediums of entertainment aren't a bad thing. These are all ways in which people augment the human experience in one way or another, all of them direct upgrades. A silicon overmind solving our problems is the next step in evolution now that we've deviated from the path nature has set for us. It's a step towards making the human species a permanent and satisfied resident of this universe.

>>7691876
>He doesn't know the Elliot meme

>>7691249

Studies show it's bad for you in the end

>>7691883
Nah, ı do know it, ı just didn't really catch your meaning. But no, being a schoolshooter is pretty misguided and doesn't solve anything.

>>7691880
I'm saying you aren't new or unique by saying that you have no purpose or meaning and wallowing in self pity.

There is nothing new under the sun. You aren't in some special person who suddenly has impossible to get out of depression. You aren't some logical genius for deciding that suicide is apparently a great idea because your "suffering" is so great. Give me a break.

Like am I actually on the /lit/ board where these arguments are taking place? I thought you guys liked philosophy.

>>7691669
>call yuppie on suicide hotline
>he blows smoke up my ass while having no actual interest in the conversation because he isn't even getting paid for that shit

>>7691837
happiness is a level of discomfort. the least negative state is death. At any moment a living organism is incurring a thermodynamic deficit. But as a human I am made overmuch familiar with these negative returns. When I am happy I am merely expressing relief that the current moment could have been much much worse.

>>7691900
nobody here said they were special. Where do you normies get these answers? Do you scrape them out of the raingutter of human rhetoric. Any amount of suffering of any kind is absurd to endure. Its only biological drives that will try to convince you otherwise. We are all just NPC's in Roller-Coaster Tycoon.

>>7691729

My point is that we are not mindless. Our purpose is the same, to propagate. But we do have a mind which we can use to enjoy it.

>>7691772

Our consciousness arises from our brain, which uses electrical impulses.

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>>7691949
>Our consciousness arises from our brain, which uses electrical impulses.

le smug scientism man

>>7691932
Nihilists man.

>>7691954

Why do people die if you destroy their brains then, you shit eating mongoloid?

>>7691928
Happiness is a feeling. Discomfort is a sensation.

>>7691932
>why cant life be perfect

Any suffering I endure I deal with because life has parts that are pretty sick too. Forgive me for finding enjoyment in literature and art and food and so many other things because you, the smart nihilist man, told me that my life is pointless and I am actually just an NPC.

In what way is your life more fulfilling than mine if all you do is mope all day on /lit/?

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If people have the right to destroy their own property, and people are the sole owners of their bodies, it stands to reason that they have the right to destroy their bodies.

Any argument that attempts to say that suicide is immoral must either make the claim that we do not have the right to destroy our own property or that we do not own our bodies, demonstrating the truth of either of those claims would likely demonstrate suicide to be immoral.

There's not a single reason to live, how can you prove that life is better than death?

>>7691989
How can you prove death is better than life?

>>7691983
If you don't believe your life is pointless without me telling you then you shouldn't even be on this board.

>>7691992
Life has slam poetry. Life is objectively a worst-case-scenario

>>7691949
We can also use that mind to rationalize suicide when there is nothing to enjoy. For my money "propogation" is actually a ludicrous gamble on a whole human life and therefore actually a tremendous and arguably nonpareil evil

>>7691983
What he said wasn't nihilistic at all. If anything it's more existentialist. I think you're equivocating enjoyment and fulfillment with meaning. One can find meaning in being totally bored, unfulfilled, and mopey (see: pessimism, or The Pale King)

you only need a reason to keep on living. not that complicated lol

>>7691616
This post is so meta and self referential that I honestly can't tell if it's trolling or totally sincere.

>>7691992
Because it is nothing - you do not feel

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>>7691616
>Buddha
>emphasized the importance of having a good appetite and eating sufficiently big meals

>>7692066
THATS the part you take issue with!

>>7692064
Then it isn't really better or worse.

>>7692075
It is nothing and hence liberation from the something.

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>>7692074
Yes.

>>7692078
You can't be liberated if you don't exist.

>>7692089
you can't experience the liberation but you can be freed from all your responsibilities and discomforts

>>7692099
That's like not being free from it at all.

>>7692123
I didn't say it was

>>7692081
???

>ITT: Spooks

>>7692127
You said
>you can be freed

>>7692165
okay let me clarify. You can have all of your responsibilities and discomforts nullified. Is that better? What is bad about nullity and how is it worse than getting the bends while cave-diving?

>>7692099
When you are dead you lack the cognition to have thought, feelings and thus liberation from suffering

>>7692179
>You can have all of your responsibilities and discomforts nullified. Is that better?
No.

>What is bad about nullity and how is it worse than getting the bends while cave-diving?
Nothing, ı'm not making a value judgement, it's you that's making it. I'm simply pointing out to you that making a value judgement about nothing doesn't make any sense (because there's nothing to judge), so it can't be said to be better or worse than something. If you judge dying to be better than to go on living, you're comparing your present condition to a projected one, not to death.

>>7692190
I am only saying "0" is a higher number than -n. That is obviously true.

>>7691345
Man, it's just so easy to bait /lit/...

>>7692222
-1+0=-1

>>7692239
This is why /lit/ is full of pseuds and /sci/ is the only board with even a semblance of intellectualism

>>7692249
Present an actual argument or go to /sci/.

>>7691249
if you were dead you wouldn't be able to post on 4chan, moron.

>>7692249
would u rather be conscious or unconscious during a surgery procedure?

>>7692294
unconscious. What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

>>7691249
If you kill yourself all the negative things that drove you towards that decision win, if you don't there is always the possibility of overcoming them

>>7692302
you fucking dumbass lmao do you realize what you just said? (of course you didn't, you're a retarded stemlord incapable of anything but brute memorization.) go back to /sci/ my friend

>>7692307
>all the negative things win

Who cares if they "win" or not? That is not any sort of rationale to not commit suicide.

>>7692315
you are the one using phonemes to represent whole words on a literature board. I am saying that is bad math. The outcome of adding two numbers together is not the basis by which we derive their relative value.

>>7692316
What's the rationale to commit suicide?

>>7692327
that suffering matters

>>7692316
What you are forgetting is that the ethos of the homeric warrior is the correct one.

>>7692322
>on a literature board
>does not know the difference between a grapheme and a phoneme
>uses math as an argument

>>7692329
So you would say the elimination of suffering is a good thing?

>>7692322
holy fuck you are retarded. you clearly haven't studied: philosophy, logic, or any math beyond the computational. stick to your formula sheets you pseudointellectual cuck

>>7692339
Bingo!

>>7692347
So would that not be victory over suffering?

>>7692351
I believe victory over suffering is impossible because even if you have millions of dollars you can still feel paranoia and ennui. Furthermore death is a much more sure thing than trying to overcome all your turmoil through determination.

>>7692364
But if you could have a life without suffering, you would have it, wouldn't you?

>>7692327
to stop the pain

>>7692376
Sure but I don't have one and such a thing is a remote possibility. But this is only speaking in practical terms. Theoretically I would find suicide a worthwhile end in that case as well. I think living is just begging the question

>>7691290
If they advocate for it then they have to do it or they aren't even following their supposed beliefs or can be though of as saying 'sure you guys should kill yourselves but I need to live because what I say doesn't apply to me.

>>7692383
>Theoretically I would find suicide a worthwhile end in that case as well.
How so?

>>7692386
Thats like saying a junkie cant recommend people avoid heroin or a convict cant advise people against thievery. Not one single iota of philosophical thought is on your side.

>>7691249
bloom was a meme author, and had no discernible talent. he was shitposting, and is literally genre tier fiction. clearly a juvenile author.

>>7692408
What is reading comprehension? It's like a straight edge faggot telling others to shoot up til they can't find a decent vein or an upstanding man telling others to steal and maim as they see fit.

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The thought of death makes me overjoyed. I get tingly when thinking about looking life in the face, all the bullshit people worry about (not getting jobs, pressures of being "ambitious", status, professionalism, feeling inadequate, competition), and heaving a great and sonorous "I WILL NOT ACCEPT!" from my little lungs.

My parents, before deciding to conceive me, sat down and discussed the possibility of their future child being insane, hurt, enduring suffering, and ultimately, killing itself. They made sure to understand these things and rightly so; bringing life into the world is a big deal, and all must be considered if you are to be responsible and rational. They talked to me about suicide when I turned 18, they told to me try and hold out if I ever felt the need to kill myself, explaining how they have found happiness and wealth in life and how I can as well. They did this to let assure me that I should never feel guilty about taking my own life. Of course they love me, but they take me as a responsible adult with a mind of his own, and if I am to kill myself, it is just.

I always viewed life like a boring movie at the cinema. You can walk out any time if you'd like and there isn't really much to staying to see the whole thing. Some people, especially on here, take pride in being alive and of course feel smug when their peers talk about suicide. People like these just cannot understand why anyone else in the world isn't exactly like they are; how wonderful to think death with rid me of these sociopaths!

Anyways, I go through life fearless. I have no anxiety what so ever ,and I never feel trapped or cornered since I have this big key to the exit whenever things get tiring. I already feel a little done with life and I am only 20. Most people seem to be driven to live simply to feel praise and status, that constant driving force in men that they like to call ambition. The possibility of Dick waving presides over all suffering

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>>7692527
>Anyways, I go through life fearless. I have no anxiety what so ever ,and I never feel trapped or cornered since I have this big key to the exit whenever things get tiring.

I used to have to same view, but when I was 17 I tried to hang myself and my parents caught me.
I wasn't even sad, just super bored. Nothing was fun or interesting I wanted to go to sleep forever because the effort I put into breathing did not seem worth it.

The stupidest thing I thought was that my parents did not care about me. They both became so terribly sad that I knew I could never try to do it again.
I still don't think my life is worth breathing for, but I have to carry on for the people who care about me.

>>7691899
What the fuck is wrong with your capital I's, fampai

>>7691616
L O L this post is r-to-the-a-to-the-n-to-the-d-o-m!!! RANDOM!!! This is totally epic and I have written it down in the book I keep next to my computer of all epic and random posts I see. I was laughing so H A R D bro, especially at the part where you talk about flapping your arms like a bird and screaming! I was ROFLing (Rolling On the Floor Laughing) for sure, I haven't laughed that hard since I watched the latest Doctor Who Youtube Poop, because I like Doctor Who and I like Youtube Poop and it was really funny! Please keep it up with these totally epic posts, anon. You're totally boss! Pwnage!

>>7691616
reading this made me want to commit suicide

>>7691249
Personally I find 'life is fun' pretty compelling.

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>>7691249

>>7692386
It's the anthropic principle of suicidal proclivity.

More money for the jews. You don't want that.

>>7691424
killing yourself?
that was easy. what the fuck else would it be anon? how else could you define suicide?

>>7692762
It's really not that simple. Let's take your definition. By that definition if you are driving along a cliff and because of the glare of the sun you break the barrier and fall to your death, then this is suicide. The driver is the agent that performs the action resulting in their death. It is literally them killing them self. But no one is going to consider an accidental, unwanted, unprovoked (in the sense that the driver was not doing anything out of the ordinary to create the possibility of the death) a suicide.

Killing =/= murder. In the same way, while not a part of the word, in the west we use the word suicide to mean wrongful self killing. Self killing that is not justified. In this sense there can never be an argument for suicide being correct. However if we take the broader approach and treat suicide like killing as opposed to murder then we very quickly run into problems.

Suicide involves complex interweaving of action (or perhaps inaction or some combination), proximity of time, severity of danger, awareness of outcomes and very importantly intention. Was it suicide when Jesus permitted his capture and execution? Is it suicide if one dies from cancer from smoking, the whole time knowing that this can happen? Is it suicide if someone likes running red lights for the thrill of it? Did Leonidas commit suicide? Is it suicide if one allows a friend to kill you? If you die by your own hand to avoid torture followed by death, is that suicide?

This is why I'm asking for a definition. This conversation won't go anywhere until we have some framework for what the word means.

>>7692893
We're talking about the usual kind that goes into government statistics. Willingly shooting yourself in the head, willingly jumping off a tall building, willingly hanging yourself... All of these with the intention of ending your life.

>>7692424
Not if you look at life as an addictive process

>>7692636
>>7692636
that's because you are a deluded DNA addict

>>7692895
A definition with such a limited scope for intention (and I'm using intention in the Anscombian sense) is going to make a justification or condemnation of any of those cases you made impossible.

How am I meant to make a case about someone hanging themselves if I don't know why they did it? It would be like asking me to say whether or not driving your car is morally justified. It might be. I don't know. For all I know when you say drive your car you men drive it into a bunch of people.

The reason why it's important is because I think suicide can be justified but not all suicides are justified. Therefore I need a stronger definition otherwise it one cannot judge any suicide.

>>7691252
you've missed the point completely.
>>7691263
case in point. anons selfish desire to not hurt those he loves overrides his desire for death.

>>7691297
this.
no act is inherently immoral. the morality of an action requires context. for example, it is moral to kill in the service of your ideals and justice condones it so long as it also serves the interests of the community and is sanctioned by the community. in war for example, it is moral to kill another person and put yourself in mortal peril.

>>7691358
you can still pursue your will to power, the will to life beyond death. people just an hero because they feel completely ineffectual.

>>7691546
wrong. a fear of death does not paralyze you. your fear of never doing anything worthwhile in your short time is what paralyzes you. being a fuckup now but being immortal isnt going to stop you from being a fuckup. a thousand years from now you'll still be frogposting.

>>7691626
sounds like you should an hero anon. if that's the most imaginative answer you can come up with.
>2016
>not even blowing your brains out casting a pink mist over a kindergarten in a clown wig
an act in itself is amoral. like a leaf blowing in the wind. the morality of an action requires motivated intent. this is why we have different levels of murder.
planning it ahead of time
doing it in the spur of the moment
doing something stupid that leads to the death of another but you didnt actually intend to kill them
and the insanity plea whereby you can not be convicted of a crime because you cannot understand what you are doing.

these values are enshrined in our legal system.

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>>7691249
"Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer. When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront. Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act. There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite. But if it comes to clear ideas and the intelligent meaning of things, then there is much more rational and philosophic truth in the burial at the cross-roads and the stake driven through the body, than in Mr. Archer's suicidal automatic machines. There is a meaning in burying the suicide apart. The man's crime is different from other crimes -- for it makes even crimes impossible."

>>7691249
Define death first

>>7692923
Good post

It's more of an emotional argument, but how the fuck can you guys seriously argue for suicide? What's wrong with you fucking people? You're basically convincing people who are already weak and need help the most that it's alright to stop trying to improve themselves and give up. The people arguing that suicide is ok likely aren't the ones that are going to actually kill themselves, and don't have to face the consequences of their position. If you argue for suicide, you basically have blood on your hands

>>7692023
Then why doesn't he just kill himself then? This whole topic is about suicide after all.

>>7692636
>life is fun

maybe for you

Value is by definition something good and worthwhile existing.

Only persons can give value to something as nothing is inherently valuable without assessment and furthermore people can give as many things as much value as they wish.

The value a person gives does not persist after they stop existing.

To take a life, even your own, is to deprive the world of a potentially infinite amount of value and therefore wrong as it makes the world overall have less value and therefore be worse.

>>7693285
>mental gymnastics the post

>>7691500
I'm from the third world.

third world richisch folks have it better than first world poorfag NEETs

I mean I've heard some of you struggle to get good at times

Suicide is just a means.
The true end is death.
This is actually irrefutable.

>>7693356
This is what I mean. You are going to die anyway. Why put it off?

remember that suicide is exceedingly unlikely friendos, only 0.01 PERCENT of the population does it (about).

so next time you think "This is shit I want to kill myself" instead think "This is shit, I want to kill myself, but that's highly unlikely and I'm probably going to end up moping for the rest of my life or eventually getting over this while perhaps having attempted and failed at a suicide"!

Unless you're really committed to suicide don't waste your time, you wouldn't waste your time fantasising about the lattery either right?

>>7693357
why rush

>>7693369
Some books require human sacrifice to be completed.
Look at Nietzsche. His sacrifice was only partial.
Imagine what you can do with a full sacrifice...

>>7693369
because you get to find out that the ending sucks without sitting through the rest of the banality

>>7693384
>valuing means over end

>>7692979
Of course. I'd wager most people here arguing in favor of suicide are Schopenhauerian antinatalists or Linkola-esque radical deep ecologists. The human race is a pack of glorified sewer rats, unfortunately endowed with cunning and malice, and our recorded history is a catalogue of self-inflicted atrocities. Google "scaphism" you historically ignorant fuckwit.

And do you think your feelings, your "deep," "intimate," "appreciations" of the natural world offer anything to those in abject poverty, abject misery? The orphaned children who fucking make a living picking through trash heaps in Mumbai? Please.

I pray (for what it's worth) that we destroy ourselves before we can infect the cosmos with out bile. Even in a nuclear holocaust: the world itself would be a perfectly reasonable sacrifice to nip in the bud the horrors we would assuredly inflict on the other sentient beings of the cosmos

Goddamn humans are awful

Your nature is to understand life.
Killing yourself you're betraying your nature.

>>7691928
there is more to happiness than the absence of pain or worry, from a logical standpoint - a pleasant surprise is an example of a situation that you wouldn't have been able to have anxiety over beforehand. Beyond that, there is not anything after death, and it is only a one time thing to be alive, suffering or not It is a gift to be able to suffer, to have an identity, and to be gifted with the faculties to think about life's worth. beyond that, the longer you avoid death, the more likely it is that you will have another happy moment, and that chance alone is worth all the suffering in the interim.

>>7692900
>>7692901
addiction is a habit that has a negative impact on your quality of life. you are suggesting that living necessarily must have a negative impact on life, and that is just blatantly untrue, as evidenced by all the happy people out there.

>>7691900
That wasn't the original poster you were arguing with, sorry for any confusion I may have caused because of it. I should've mentioned I was a different poster.

>>7693393
I knew chesterton wouldn't be enough.

(Summa theologica, question 5, article 4, reply to objection 3):
"Non-being is desirable not of itself but only accidentally-that is, in so far as the removal of an evil, which can only be removed by non-being, is desirable.
Now the removal of an evil cannot be desirable except so far as this evil deprives a thing of some being.
Therefor being is desirable of itself, and non-being only accidentally..."

Do you think those children picking through trash heaps in mumbai have some special right to suicide then?
Doesn't that assertion revolve around -your- feelings?

>>7691345
I unironically agree

Pseudo-empathy

However I would agree that with sufficient help mental illness can be helped majorly, it's just that most psychologists are hacks that don't care anymore and throw a reference to a psychiatrist at you in order to make you go away.

>>7693384
Damn you really don't enjoy yourself ever do you?

>>7693560
A short moment of happiness doesn't revoke constant suffering.
Not-existing is preferable since you won't long for an identity or the faculties to think about life's worth.

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>>7692599
Nothing, ı find the convention of capitalizing the first person pronoun to be problematic, as it mixes with "l" in some fonts and creates an ambiguity regarding capitalization when this doesn't happen with other pronouns, but given the it's capitalized so as to be more noticeable, writing it as "i" doesn't sit well either; so ı opted for a middle ground in "ı", which is lower case, but at the same time paradoxically prominent due to its lack of point (implications intended). Plus, it's a way to be recognizible without having a name.

>>7691290
Mainlander my guy

>>7693580
That is like 10% of the world at best. I don't think 10% justifies the 90% in miserable abject poverty. Get some perspective

>>7691249
Because it isn't about argument or logic. If you treat the depression behind suicidal thoughts, suicidal ideation magically goes away.

>>7691249

Well, as an exercise, let's consider a (paraphrased) Kantian objection.

According to Kant in order to be truly free we need to operate according to principles we have chosen ourselves rather than in accordance with feelings and needs and sensations which we did not ourselves choose. This necessitates operating under a law we choose for ourselves, rather than merely acting on the impulse of experience and pleasure/pain. But once we disregard everything which we did not ourselves choose or elect, we are only left with reason. This reliance on reason and reason alone to the exclusion of any contingent aspects of our experience leads to the derivation of the categorical imperative. Reason is equally accessible to all human beings, which means any law you elect for yourself must logically be a maxim which any other human being could also rightfully adopt. This in turn implies that we need to regard all persons as ends rather than means, for any maxim that would permit me to regard another person as a means rather than an end would be contradictory if applied to myself; the very line of logic engaged in developing a law to give myself would be dismissing the self-same line of logic engaged in developing a law to give myself.

But now that we are regarding all persons including myself as ends rather than means, that actually implies I have substantially less moral right to myself than is popularly assumed. The reason I cannot dismiss the worth of someone else's life is very same maxim which prohibits me from discarding my own. It also means, surprisingly, that there is no such thing as a free choice to commit suicide, as such a decision cannot be derived from a law that you gave yourselves, but is always contingent on factors that you did not choose.

>>7693560
>1 moment of happiness = any number of moments of suffering or discomfit

false economy the post

>>7695188
If you treat sobriety with opiates then sanity also magically goes away

>>7693560
>It is a gift to be able to suffer, to have an identity, and to be gifted with the faculties to think about life's worth

Then why do you live comfortably?

>>7695208
Literally what?

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you heard me

>>7695208
What stops me from saying all life has no value?

>>7695393

That would seem to me to suggest that the life of myself or any other subject is not being evaluated as an end or purpose or value-giving-thing, but rather as a means or object or thing-to-which-value-is-ascribed.

>>7695402
that's how Stirner would evaluate it

>>7695402

I would clarify my wording there: it is me, not my life, and the other person, not his/her life, which is the ends, the purpose, the value-giving-thing.

>>7695406

I haven't read Stirner but I would rather modestly suggest to you Stirner is no Kantian. Like all sufficiently mature philosophers he probably had an opinion(s) on Kant's framework but I can't tell you if his criticisms are legit or not. As it is I don't see how Stirner as articulated here doesn't directly fall into operating under what Kant would term hereonymous thinking, or living entirely under the whim of fleeting contingent experiences and impulses that we did not elect to have, and therefore operating without any robust sense of free will.

>>7695402
I mean both, they, and their lives have no value to me.

>>7695419

Well before answering it is important to inquire whether you find Kant's account of free will convincing or not. His thoughts on morality are critically contingent on his beliefs concerning free will. Do you find it plausible that we are only ever truly operating of our own will if we act in accordance with principles we have chosen for ourselves, rather than following the biological or psychological impulses that come to us naturally? If a bear gets hungry, it eats; if it gets tired, sleeps; if it feels threatened, it attacks. There's nothing in that experience like what we think of when we consider free will, and in Kant's opinion the only way we can transcend this is to use reason and reason alone to constructs principles and laws and maxims for ourselves to live by.

>>7695432
>If a bear gets hungry, it eats; if it gets tired, sleeps; if it feels threatened, it attacks.
That seems to me more a case of lack of forecast, rather than will; the bear does as it does because it cannot project his situation further into the future than its instinct permits, rather than due to some choice.

>>7691321
I feel so badly for your parents

>>7695574

But would you seriously ascribe any moral worth to a "decision" a bear makes?

>>7691467
Pampered babby detected.

I watched a nature doc the other day and noticed that they're always about fucking. Animals just having sex and passing on their genes. It's their purpose in life, and was ours not too long ago, but now that procreation is no longer humanity's raison d'être, we're confused and alone. We multiplied and became too conscious of ourselves and so we lost our purpose in life, which set us free to do anything we please. Kill yourself or don't kill yourself, in the end we're going to die anyway and i for one would live a lifetime of suffering than to head for an early grave, just in case this is the only life we're given.

>>7691249
Egotistical shit heads are the least likely to be suicidal. Killing yourself slightly pushes the ratio in their favor.

>>7691349
>you must make yourself suffer and subject others (through bringing hem into existence) for this arbitrary reason right here yes the propagation of life
if you believe there is any purpose to life you're hopelessly retarded
you can speak of the purpose of tools, like if I wanted to craft a dildo to fuck your mother with it would have a purpose
if youre saying that a rather arbitrary attribute assigned to certain things (life) somehow has a purpose, you really need to reconsider your positions

>>7691581

>Your leg heals just fine; your brain does not.

But that's wrong.

Muh chemical imbalance is a grossly oversimplified and inaccurate meme.

The etiology of depression is /not/ anywhere close to being precisely described. We don't even know what the mechanism of action is for SSRI's (We know superficially what they do, but not why they seem to work).

For example, my treatment plan over the past two years has been multi-factorial.

Antidepressants are used to help 'take the edge off' of symptoms.

CBT and other therapies help to deconstruct negative thinking patterns and dynamics associated with depression.

Lifestyle changes with the aim of normalizing sleep and diet, as well as the addition of regular exercise.

Finally, a social support network is built up and regular progress through life in the form of work or education or just anything is begun.

I feel like I've completely overhauled my body and mind from the atom up and I couldn't be happier desu.

Going back to your broken leg, antidepressants/therapy are like a splint for the mind, provided you truly engage with it.

>>7691290
The people who think its viable have killed themselves

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There are no real arguments anti-suicide.

There are only arguments anti or pro living. So it's a individual battle. The wast majority of people, including c/lit/s, will find ease in arguing pro-life, even if that argument is cowardice or not wanting to hurt relatives.

If any1 here is contemplating suicide, the mere fact that you haven't done it yet, means that you have argued yourself that life is worth living for whatever reason. So, just keep what you are doing, and work towards a better life so you don't fall even deeper to the point where you want to commit suicide.

>>7696193
most of this makes sense but how the hell does cock and ball torture help

>>7696328
your problems seem drastically more insignificant after a good cock and ball torture sesh m8.

>>7696171
Why do you think that passing on your genes and contributing in that way to the existence of our species isn't a no longer a purpose? I would even say its our only purpose.

>>7697450
You don't need to pass on your genes to contribute to humanity. I would say good ideas are far more effective.

>>7696293
>the mere fact that you haven't done it yet, means that you have argued yourself that life is worth living for whatever reason
Doesn't have to be true, dying hurts and some people aren't so miserable that they want to go through that pain.

>>7691345
Have you been alive as of late?

>>7691249
none, kill yourself.
but more seriously the argument of potentiality is quite easy to pull, no that it would sway anyone in this position as such decision tend to be far more "rational", at the very least in the eyes of the person deciding than what people conceive it as.

>>7696148
No, but that's purely dependent on the capacity it has to make a decision; i.e. animals can't be judged moral or amoral because they don't have "choice". But my question is whether this applies to humans, if our sense of "choice" stems only from memory and projectivity or it's something else.

>>7691249
life is great

>>7691249
live because you will die later anyway
live because you might just think of a way to improve things
live because the alternative might be worse

Pascal's Wager.

To sleep, perchance to Dream; aye, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life: