I personally don't like it because it doesn't give me stuff for doing nothing in return. The current sort of centrist welfare state I live in does provide me with what I need though. Hybrid economies aren't perfect but they're the best we've got so far.
>>7685575 >Based on exploitation Only the "exploited" can complain about their exploitation, buddy. "Exploitation" doesn't mean anything. Cristiano Ronaldo is exploited. >has several serious flaws in the system of it that will eventually lead to its downfall Still waiting m8
>>7685593 The worker while working creates a surplus value that the capitalist takes as profit, the capitalist is exploiting the worker
>waiting One of them is that the market drives prices down through competition, while the goal of the capitalist is to make more money, this can lead to all kinds of further exploitation of the workers, a lowering of wages, and ultimately at worse case scenario, unemployment.
Another is the fact that things are made to exchange rather than for their uses, if something has the potential to be useful, but there is no way to exchange it,then it won't get made or done,this leads to people owning derelict properties where there is no return on investment to sell it, and not profitable enough to fix it, so it stays derelict, and other such problems like stifiling scientific growth
Because it has created a society where "use value" is no longer a fucking thing. Production has increased to the point of over production and no one knows exactly what they really "need" anymore. Work isn't even a thing anymore. People believe that they're being mature adults and going to work and contributing to society when in reality their job doesn't mean shit. You are making a product that no one fucking needs. The people in charge of these means of production will continue to profit off of these commodities that people really don't need. People are idiots.
Capitalism will progress to the detriment of all of us until the 99℅ or the proletariat relise their class power and destroy capitalism, the question is will it happen before we fuck the earth to death
>>7685537 It isnt, but kleptocracy is. A moral, structured capitalistic society with proper backstops and safety nets for those who will fall through as well as an awareness of the impact of unethically sourced goods and services is the best we have.
Canada, Denmark, New Zealand, US states like Vermont and Colorado, what I hope Chile is becoming, Japan.
>>7685575 >exploitation I'll give you colonialism and pre-20th century capitalism, but since the 20th century began of the top 10 most exploitative societies, 4 were Marxist, with the winner being Pol Pot's Cambodia and the USSR during the 5 year plans, followed by, lets say, the Belgian Congo. Lets stop this meme.
>>7685627 >sure, it needs good oversight and strong institutions and there are issues with consumerism, alienation, reification etc Those are some big issues m8. Don't shrug them off like they're just minor things that can be easily fixed
well, oversight is generally good and strong institutions are generally known
i accept the latter 3 are nasty side effects, i'm not sure how they are overcome - consumerism i don't see ending and it isn't necessarily that bad provided externalities get corrected for (e.g. taxes on carbon etc), alienation is an issue which might get corrected as we become ever more wealthy and people go down more fulfilling paths and robots take over the most soul crushing work - reification is becoming less of an issue imo with more information, particularly with the internet, we can find out where products have come from more often than not and how they're produced
it's still better than any alternatives that have been tested, i know there will be communists proclaiming the ussr and mao's china weren't pure communism (sure whatever, show me a place that was), but we can definitely consign planned economies to history that should be never attempted again. Socialists, communists, whoever pretty much have to accept the importance of markets at the very least.
>>7685625 If you use follow a moral principle, then it's obvious, if not, then there is nothing wrong with exploitation from a capitalist point of view, but itdoes make a large class of people ddestitute and angry.
What capitalism creates above all, are its own grave diggers
>>7685650 It's called itself Communist, therefor it is
There is a difference between saying a scotsman is not a true scotsman, and saying a norwegian is not a true scotsman.
These were state capitalist countries that used it as a transitioning state in order to get to socialism, and if you look beyond the label you'll see that those societies had nothing to do with communism other than stating them as a goal
>>7685688 >What capitalism creates above all, are its own grave diggers I agree. But people are stupid and taking advantage of all these dumbasses isn't very nice. If we're going to live in a society filled with dumbasses we should at least make it so there isn't a system in place that is taking advantage of them. Otherwise, from your point of view, there shouldn't even be laws in place. People should be able to rape and kill as much as they want.
>>7685616 Yeah, so Cristiano Ronaldo and an engineer are exploited. Don't think they're upset at it. >things are made to exchange rather than for their uses complaining about capitalism as a ballast for scientific growth in fucking XXI century is nothing but ridiculous.
>>7685619 >in reality their job doesn't mean shit >You are making a product that no one fucking needs >profit off of these commodities that people really don't need >People are idiots. Seems like someone watched Fight Club after school
>lit skipped over the next 100 years of capitalist deconstruction wow. do yourself a favour and google "cultural capital," "political capital," "intellectual proletariat," and "social capital"
capitalism isnt a political framework. it's an ideological framework for conceptualizing value post-deus vult. it's just that stupid faggots think capitalism means "money is the only thing that matters".
I've always considered myself a libertarian, and adopted some pretty pro-capitalist views. However, more recently a few experiences I've had have led me to question these views - I think the people who become rich are able to form a monopoly at the top whereby they are effectively able to thwart competition and continue to exploit those who are not rich (by unfairly raising prices, by lowering the quality of their products, by exploiting the workforce, etc). I'm now coming to think that the ideal form of government is a benevolent socialist dictatorship whereby an ethical judge oversees all business practice, but this is impossible and will never be a reality. I pretty much have a pessimistic view of human nature in which people will continue to look out only for themselves and screw over other people, and justify it to themselves easily and without any moral consequence.
I'd love for someone to convince me otherwise though, I'm by no means an economist and my views are shaped by my own experiences rather than by any serious study.
>>7685781 >Remember that there were economic and scientific advances when fuedalism emerged as the domanant economic system Most of them stolen from thegreeks.gif Also, not even comparable with development of science under capitalism. >Saying that society advances the further it goes on is not even an argument It is if you said capitalism ballasts that advance.
>>7685794 Competition in business segments can only be stifled in two ways: through one company having increasing or constant returns to scale (which doesn't exist) or by erecting barriers to entry in the segment (which is only possible through government intervention)
>>7685802 I know it sounds ridiculous, and I take your point. I'm trying to argue for something similar to Plato's Republic I guess - in my opinion, the best leaders by far are the ones that people would never elect. Most people are essentially idiots, and cannot be trusted to choose who to rule over them. That's why the best leader would be a dictator who can control all these things without having to worry about their popularity in the eyes of the public.
>>7685813 As I say I'm no economy/politics student so I'm not too clued up about this and I think this industry probably does have some government intervention, but here in the UK the state of the rail services is pretty dire. A small number of companies dominate the industry and provide a bad service. Trains are overcrowded and tickets are ridiculously expensive (usually more than the petrol cost if you decided to drive individually) - but they get away with it because there's no competition in the market.
>>7685815 Yeah I guess that makes sense, and I think the latter is fairly common in western capitalist society. Do you know of any examples of where a truly free market has been tested?
>>7685794 >whereby an ethical judge oversees all business practice
that's called "regulation" and the USA and every other successful capitalist country has it..on the other hand if u really look at almost every monopoly gets bused not by anti-trust laws but by innovation. standard oil got beat by pipelines, microsoft got too fat on their desktop monopoly and get smoked by mobile tech and web based platforms like google and facebook...the only place were monopolies won't die is in the case of utilities, in this case it's better to regulate them and grant a monopoly, the competition wastes resources in this case, you don't want five companies putting down water pipes in every neighborhood, so you have one water company and regulate them...i used to be the biggest marxist crank, but the truth is capitalism is actually fucking amazing and really does give freedom, which embarrasses some people because it shows all they do with their freedom is watch tv, but don't blame freedom for plebs choosing boring lives
Only under global capitalism can the world be in a recession because of an oversupply of cheap energy. How is it that all economies are tanking because there is an oversupply of oil? This is counterintuitive to what is expected and is opposite of what has happened in the past.
>>7685776 this thing has value because it is godly. that was what value meant before capitalism. before the enlightenment. capitalism is merely the re-evaluation of value itself to mean that value comes from somethings utility, not how connected to God it can be considered.
>>7685787 yes. they were bullshit. constant whining about money. guess what dipshit, money existed before capitalism.
how can such faggotry exist? I mean, how can you really not come to terms with the idea that there have been richfags and poor fags for all of human history. coins have been minted and privately held for more than 6000 years. suddenly a wild marx appears and every faggot pops up >the year is 2016 >people still dont understand what capitalism means
>>7685854 Yeah but there are literally hundreds if not thousand examples where human weakness (e.g. personal greed) has undermined that process. When I talk about an 'ethical' judge, I mean someone who is beyond that human weakness and makes decisions from a truly ethical perspective. I don't know how that would ever be achieved, which is why I think my perfect society is impossible.
>>7685859 Yeah well I guess that explains why the situation is so shitty then.
>>7685863 I don't think I want to reword it, obviously I'd never say that the vast majority of people are stupid if I was speaking in real life, but I'm on an anonymous Chinese fishing-enthusiasts website so I can say what I actually think. Bear in mind that I'm not saying that we should actually adopt a dictatorship, just that it would be the best possible form of government if a truly ethical and wise leader existed (and he/she probably doesn't).
>>7685856 it can indicate weak demand at the production level, if u dont have big trucks and tankers shipping things then u dont need as much oil...most recessions show first in capital goods orders by heavy producers first...on the other hand the stock market has been shit because the fed is fucking with the market by threatening to raise interest rates...which seems bad, but they are trying to cool off any bubbles, the u3 unemployment is below 5% now, now they have their employment goal met so they move now to temper inflation...low unemployment and low inflation, so far so good t be h, so who says it's a recession? because overflated silly valley unicorns valuations coming back to earth? if it's a recession it will actually be a recession for once in two decades rather than a massive crash
>>7685889 >Yeah but there are literally hundreds if not thousand examples where human weakness (e.g. personal greed) has undermined that process. When I talk about an 'ethical' judge, I mean someone who is beyond that human weakness and makes decisions from a truly ethical perspective. I don't know how that would ever be achieved, which is why I think my perfect society is impossible.
so you're saying capitalism is bad because it's not as good as your admittedly impossible fantasy world? well ok then, i'm convinced, let's bring back stalin!
>>7685627 >its not that bad really, we live in a time of unprecedented wealth and luxury, with the global rate of absolute poverty having plummeted in the past 20 years
The fact we're better off than the primitive states of society that preceded us means nothing. Every people has justified inadequacy by pointing to the inadequacies that existed prior, right up to the cavemen.
>>7685901 >claims to be communist >her to hashtags are nationalist slogans
it's funny how marxism was supposed to be opposed to nationalism, but really all it ever amounted to was a bunch of anti-colonial nationist movements...now anti-colonial nationalist movements are fine, but they're not communist or marxist, which is why communism is dead, colonialism died....too bad defeating colonialism never even phased capitalism
>>7685897 Yeah sorry, I should have said from the offset that in my opinion our current centrist governments are probably about as good as we're going to get. Obviously there are lots of small reforms that I'd like to make that I think would improve the current system, but if I tried to impose any of my more radical idealist principles then the people would revolt, the dictators would turn violent, and so on. I can't think of any political ideology that is more appropriate for our society than centre-right capitalism, even though I dislike it.
>>7685537 Because it makes it hard for me to benefit myself and those that I love. By which I mean, I'd like to use what I create rather than have someone else take it away from me, thank you very much.
>>7685861 before our consumer driven society, commodities had value because use value was still a thing Now things have value for god knows what reason >this thing has value because it is godly What the fuck are you even saying
>>7685932 so you're saying investing money in factories and infrastructure in order to develop the developing world which creates jobs that give people a chance to have self determination in their life beyond subsistence agriculture is exploitation? ok
>>7685941 >points to list of little white countries with populations under 100 million
well hell why not just look at the best neighborhoods to be born into? if that's the case then clearly beverly hills is based on the greatest system in world, let's start acting programs in the third world so everyone can become like beverly hills!
>>7685942 literally go and read christian naturalism. >food is good because it comes from the sun which is also good and life is good and therefor god must will us to eat it for it makes his children grow
>>7685945 >forcing people to work long hours for you, giving them nearly nothing in return except the ability to not instantly starve >self-determination Pic somewhat related, regarding the "lol no one's FORCING you to work" meme.
>>7685891 >it can indicate weak demand at the production level It's due to oversupply because everyone is trying to keep market share and refuses to reduce production. Maybe it just seems worse in Alberta because it is being hit pretty hard. The overinflated valuations are due to capitalism though I think.
>>7685960 you're the one using some east india company era junk you read in a yellowed marxist pamphlet that you found at a flea market, now one is forcing china to produce iphones, but it turns out producing high tech devices beats wet rice agriculture both in terms of how grueling the work is and how much it can benefit your trade balance, no one is forcing china to become the worlds second greatest economy, they could stay an impoverished dump like bengladesh if they wanted to
>>7685972 oh wait, i know what it is...oil is cheap because the dollar is strong and when the dollar is strong our exports are less competitive with countries with weaker currencies, so a while like that and our trade balance will shift against us and cost investment and jobs
>>7685983 Oil is cheap because world production is 2 million barrels per day higher than the demand and no one is willing to reduce their production because they will lose market share. Canada has a weak currency and is being fucked by the low oil price.
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