I have a master's degree from one of the best universities in the US. I have devoured literature all my life. I am a successful published author myself. Yet, I find Ulysses to be unreadable gibberish. After a few pages, my eyes glaze over. What is it about? Where is the plot? Where is the dramatic arc? Why does Joyce get to make up his own language? Why is Ulysses a classic and the very similar Finnegan's Wake a bust? They are both nonsense. It's time to put this charade into the dustbin of literature and focus on books that actually make sense.
>Yet, I find Ulysses to be unreadable gibberish. After a few pages, my eyes glaze over.
How far have you read? 'Oxen of the Sun'?
For one thing, keep in mind how the writing sometimes reflects (the fragmented nature of) thought.
>What is it about? Where is the plot? Where is the dramatic arc?
Maybe you haven't read far enough.
>Why does Joyce get to make up his own language?
He's not, but why doesn't he, such as...
>Why is Ulysses a classic and the very similar Finnegan's Wake a bust? They are both nonsense.
>implying some kind of valid criteria are being used to make that call
>It's time to put this charade into the dustbin of literature and focus on books that actually make sense.
I fell for bait, didn't I?
I'll give you 6/16
/1904for getting me to post anyway.
If you're hoping for the relevant critic in favor of Joyce's nonsense as a readable literature, you won't find any.
He is yes, extremely talented and Ulysses is the work of huge proportions and in the use of language and a rich civilizational product of his time, it simply isn't...readable. And I feel like no individual apart from Joyce even was MEANT to read it. If Joyce actually expected people to read his ramblings, he must have been mad.
Ulysses is what happens when once-a-century man leaves behind a superb work like that for the general public, academics, writers and critics inferior in creativity, style and skill to wonder about. It doesn't mean you should read it if you constantly feel its getting nowhere. Ulysses is literary version of Mein Kampf/Capital. You can read it or not, but you must appreciate it/follow it.
you described FW more than Ulysses. Ulysses is very readable and understandable, assuming you have some exposure/familiarity with the literary canon and joyce's historical context.
ulysses isn't easy, but nor is it nearly as difficult as its reputation
Food doesnt explain what steak is you dumb cunt. Its a broad fucking category that doesnt need to be said because of fucking course steak is food. Now you can explain where steak comes from etc without saying its food because of fucking course it is.
Same reasoning with this "literary device" bullshit.
the published author part is suspect, but a masters degree from a top US university is fairly believable.
undergrad and Phd programs at top universities are extremely competitive. masters are actually fairly easy to get into - the really smart guys either went straight to phd, or went to industry and will reenter higher ed at the phd level if they want to later on. masters is the weird void where it's filled with epople who want to pad their resume/cv, either for a job or for more academia, since they weren't smart/good enough to get in the normal way. there are exceptions for people who are looking to do a career/industry shift a few years into work, but that's much rarer. as such, masters degrees in the us just tend to take whoever can afford the 50k tuition with very minimal requirements
I have a master's degree from one of the best universities in the US. I have devoured literature all my life. I am a successful published author myself. Yet, I find Bible to be unreadable gibberish. After a few pages, my eyes glaze over. What is it about? Where is the plot? Where is the dramatic arc? Why does Holy Spirit get to make up his own language? Why is Bible a classic and the very similar Quran a bust? They are both nonsense. It's time to put this charade into the dustbin of literature and focus on books that actually make sense.
>Why does Holy Spirit get to make up his own language?
Watching people speak in tongues was a huge letdown to my childhood. I was under the impression that they would throw out Aramaic, as I was assured that they would by the guy who got me to attend.
I've only glanced at the book, but I like Greek legends...
This is the first time I've heard of the Gilbert (symbolist) and Linati (colour) schema, however. It's a shame that they haven't been turned into an info graphic... I don't have the software myself.
But your objection is literal nonsense. "Literary device" is a pretentious smartalec term? People learn the term in 5th grade. If anything can be labeled pretentious, it is the Greek term 'litotes' itself.
Hence why anon compared your argument to complaining about the word 'food'.
Not the guy.
What he means is that saying something is a 'literary device' and in the same sentence explaining what it does is to speak annoying superfluities. It doesn't contribute to the meaning of the sentence, so to the listener/reader who can anticipate what you might be about to say its turgid. And it makes them suspect that you think having some knowledge of what a 'literary device' might be somehow makes your sentence more valid.
Does that explain his annoyance sufficiently?
>the very similar Finnegan's Wake
They're nothing alike, which you'd know if you actually read both of them.
Also why bother trying to validate your opinions by talking about credentials you won't be able to prove you have on an anonymous board? No one's impressed.
>What he means is that saying something is a 'literary device' and in the same sentence explaining what it does is to speak annoying superfluities
It isn't speaking annoying superfluities to categorize a notion before defining it in detail. It is on the contrary a basic teaching technique. Removes any ambiguity and helps with memorization. Far more reasonable to assume that anon's reaction is based on mindless dislike for jargon, here overextended to a lexical field they aren't accustomed to.
>lexical field they aren't accustomed to.
waaaaaaaaay banteeeeeer wooop woop
Seriously though: /lit/ is not the place for demagoguery or even the pretence of edification - expressions sounding remotely similar to 'teaching' should be attacked...for the greater good of the communities(my) sanity
>I have a master's degree from one of the best universities in the US.
>I am a successful published author myself.
>successful published author
>master's degree from one of the best universities in the US.
I see 2 options here, either you are John Green or you are bluffing.
I'm a HS student studying math and physics and even I can't fail to interpret Joyce's immense capability and it's showcase in Ulysses. It's a literary masterpiece and if you can't see that then your "published" works can't be of any significance whatsoever.
That you don't understand Ulysses says more about the quality of the best American universities than it does about the quality of Ulysses. I went to two of the best universities in the US. Some of the students were among the brightest people I've ever met, but most were regular people who worked hard in school or had the right connections.
>Ulysess is unreadable gibberish
Eileen had long thin cool white hands too because she was a girl. They were like ivory; only soft. That was the meaning of TOWER OF IVORY but protestants could not understand it and made fun of it. One day he had stood beside her looking into the hotel grounds. A waiter was running up a trail of bunting on the flagstaff and a fox terrier was scampering to and fro on the sunny lawn. She had put her hand into his pocket where his hand was and he had felt how cool and thin and soft her hand was. She had said that pockets were funny things to have: and then all of a sudden she had broken away and had run laughing down the sloping curve of the path. Her fair hair had streamed out behind her like gold in the sun. TOWER OF IVORY. HOUSE OF GOLD. By thinking of things you could understand them.
This thread is in violation of the first law of internet posting, which is never brag about your credentials/accomplishments, because nobody will have any reason to believe them.
Anyway, about James Joyce. Finnegan's Wake is similar to Ulysses in some respects, but it carries his wordplay and esoteric allusions even further than did Ulysses. It's frankly kind of masturbatory in how self-indulgent it is, and although it's an impressive achievement intellectual, I don't think there are many out there who find it readable or worth reading. Ulysses, by contrast, has a much clearer statement to make and it's celebrated for revolutionizing the approach to writing. If you truly are incapable of discerning the plot, then let me refer you spark notes or wikipedia. But the really important/admirable thing about Ulysses is that it escapes the traditional confines of the written word and creates a more dynamic story by utilizing structures and forms that no one had ever (to my knowledge) thought of before.
Try reading Ulysses again with an open mind; maybe if you get past the first few pages this time you will appreciate it.
Ulysses is the Spurdo of literature. A shitty meme that became famous for being stupid and that brands you as a normie if you don't like it. The Emperor is naked, stop pretending. It's the work of a madman, a written scipt of the typical wino rambling about vietnam and the goverment controling his mind.
Im coming up on the Penelope episode, does anyone know where I could listen to a good reading of it? I listened to the like 5 minute part on youtube and even though its overdramatic as fuck it makes it way easier to understand what's happening than trying to speak it in my head
You all fell for one of my classical pranks.
Ahah! You fell for my epic ruse! By masterfully presenting someone else's words as my own I have successfully PWND you into being butthurt!
See? This is moronic.
>im responsible for a large portion of bait threads on /lit/ and i get a quite large amount of responses i expected
Proud of that, are you? Going to get it written on your gravestone?
You get paid well for it then? Do you show your mom all the threads you've made when she comes to put you to bed in the evenings? Put printouts of your most successful ones on your walls to show off to girls?
You should probably make sure there's a provisio in your will about your folder of reaction faces. With all the work you've put into it, it would be a major blow to the art world - and culture as a whole - if something were to happen to it.
It feels like watching someone paint. In a positive sense.
Yet isn't there more gibberish and profanity than sense in the novel?