What do you guys think of the poetical aspect of rap?
I was arguing with a friend who was saying its the best example of working class poetry in modern America.
Was bopping through every possible obstacle
My options grew until the cops pursue
But I'm here to win they can't stop the flu
All the kids napped, you was hostage too
If you don't dig me it's no biggie I'ma keep the faith
Streets be laced, it's a decent pace for a steeplechase
Evil days the most peligro ways to reach a safe
Aso bloody, in the study we a peaceful race
Wild plays, foul ways, blamming with the cannon
Strayed that's how I stayed, standing in the famine
Whenever in doubt the first one to get it out
Thought cursed, till I ain't die of thirst in the drought
Here they quick to shoot you, my movie vague
Of course I'm sick. I was living through the plague
Distraught talk of when I stalked as peasant
Still hot-headed from when I walked the desert
Every step I had to rep, no thought was pleasant
Used to eat off of bird, now I'm off the pheasant
It's great to hold your own weight, no kickstand
A big man could pull hisself out that quicksand
Rapping is beyond poetry. It is better in every way. There is a study showing that most rappers have a higher vocabulary than the greatest poets. Rappers are really good at playing with words and multi-syllabic rhymes. Let's not pretend that hip-hop isn't the best artform to present a story or convey meaning.
I like some rap. But its not poetical at all.
At best its good at making associations and wordplay.
I have never had a poetical experience in my life with rap.
I defy anyone to even post one.
Every time someone argues for rap being poetry they post some word play.
It makes me believe people dumb enough to think rap is poetry are dumb enough to think word play is poetry.
Even some rappers who are known to be into--at least basic--poetry, like MF doom sampling an entire bukowski reading on his album born like this are taking that inspiration and doing something different with it.
I'm also not arguing rap is bad because it's not poetic, but work play or clever lines or talking about social shit does not instantly make something poetic.
Why do people who read zero poetry try so hard to argue things are poetic.
im sad n shit so i do drugs
when u black u die more easily but it aint are fault its the bugs (WASPs)
yo yo yo we aint no slaves we do whatever we want except we dindu nuffin the bugs make us do that shit we wuz kings b4 dem muhfuggin bugz
Force-fed myself with blow but now i settle for sedatives
No longer in the street, I belong in the crevices.
Positively negative. Popular I've never been. Hard to be a person when you lack the metal requistes.
Emotionally deficit. Consumed with all the wretchedness. Not optimist or pessimist.
My politics are in Exodus. Spouting countless fountains out while drowning in the brine.
My life's the foulest algorithm science can't define.
They trap you in these systems that are phallic in design, because they fuck you in the mind, boy.
They fuck you all the time."
Look up Lil Ugly Mane, his album Oblivion Access is pure poetry.
Lets be real anyone could post that in a critique thread and it would be BTFO with a mountain of comments pointing it out for what it is. Edgy, derivative, unimaginative, etc.
There is truly not a poetic line in that entire block you posted. Like i said, its all wordplay and very basic. It might be a nice song, but if I posted Doors lyrics and attempted to call them poetry you would rightly laugh. It amounts to the same thing.
Social self-obsessive species, everything is peachy, having cyber interactions, get erections from the TV.
Vocal bout opinions bout elections up in DC,with a total lack of knowledge, rope around your neck was easy.
Chemical complaint, deformity machine,s kin eraser, loss creator, poison that you breathe
traitor, parasite, xenophilic golden boy
seen him with a soy product, wrote to the Village Voice about it.
If this isn't poetry then nothing is.
I like rap but I'd be more convinced of it's poetic merit if the entire ouvre of any rapper who makes an attempt at higher meaning rapped about something other than a) i.e., fuck the police, and b) the white man is holding us back.
To Pimp a Butterfly is about how an artist who reaches immense, immediate fame struggles to remain loyal to his community. It poses interesting questions about creativity, an artist's responsibility as a social activist, and the difficulties that occur when your old life and new life intersect.
But most people think it's "the white man is holding us back."
Shakespeare is such a fucking hack for employing wordplay. His works are mostly edgy (Titus Andronicus being the prime example) and often derivative - take Hamlet, for example. Derivative of an old Danish folk tale.
It's clearly you are trying to undermine rap as poetry because it's a black art-form. Please provide metrics for your argument relating to the structure and meaning of the rap and explain how it's not poetry.
>His wordplay doesn't simplify into 'im black so i like to FUCK and do DRUGS and it makes me sad ;_;'
True, it doesn't. It's usually about fucking. That's high culture.
This isn't exactly performative contradiction, more of performative hypocrisy. Interesting nonetheless. Being able to sincerely scold someone for lack of literacy while not understanding how capitalization works.
But nice rebuttal anyway, you sure showed me.
Shit was hyperbolic, I like Shakespeare. But he is not as much a poet as he is a play-write, and his work is better as play/literature than it is read as a poem.
I wouldn't consider Joyce a poet either.
Why is hiphop considered poetry at all if other lyrics are so obviously not.
If you want to argue that lyrics are poetry we will have to agree to disagree; aka I will consider you so retarded I will not even bother.
[ARCHIVED POST TO A TOPIC THAT HAS ARISEN MULTIPLE TIMES NOW]
I belive some of the best rappers can be considered poets, but they will never reach the levels of the most influential poets. However, you have to consider that Rap has a different 'mean' to proyect itself, even if the end is the same as poetry (express one's thoughts, emotions or philosophy). Rappers need to have flow and rhyme, and most of the time they focus on the musical part rather than the content of what they speak. It would be a lot easier to have rich content in rap if making entertaining lyrics that follow a beat wasn't a priority, so trying to compare the two seems unfair to me.
The best poet might not be the best rapper and vice-versa, so making threads asking is kind of dumb. Why would you need rappers to be validated as poets when they are musicians first? Spoken word music is the closest to poetry you can find anyway.
Hip Hop lyricism is the greatest embodiment of style over substance. Even the most celebrated lyricists are shallow and derivative; their only saving grace is the occasional piece of clever wordplay.
Rap has damn fine poetry within it. The best rappers would undoubtedly pass as good poets and their choice of portraying their thoughts musically is just as telling of their reality as the messages they convey.
The issue is, the main bulk of rap and hip hop is simply a musical genre. There are only a minority of rappers who's lyrics are poetry and you've posted one(The other being MF Doom, though he's a bit to pop and reference heavy for me).
The issue with poetic rappers, the one you've posted being a prime example, is that they have to sacrifice a degree of musicality in favour of the poetical aspect. As a result, he's become neither a full fledged poet or a full fledged musician. That isn't to say he's bad at either, but his a jack of both and a master of neither.
I kind of wish this wasn't true, but it seems to be: all mainstream hiphop is absolute fucking garbage lyrics wise. If you want good lyricism you have to go to the underground, but even they pale in comparison. This is true for most musician, though (just look how famous bob dylan is for his lyricism, and how it doesn't hold a candle to his contemporary poets). There are definitely rappers who are great, killer mike and EL-P spring to mind. And you have the more artsy ones like MC ride and Dalek, even Cool AD.
Problem is that the non-artsy ones are so incredibly on the nose that it's often difficult to listen to their music without rolling your eyes. This is especially true for the mainstream kind, if they actually try to have a message or topic.
>What kind of rapper topics and in which way would a rapper have to rap in order to it to be poetry?
It would have to stop being rap. Even the best verse is degraded through use in popular music that is cannot claim to be art.
IMO? And I appreciate that this is flimsy at best, but there's a line between exclusively telling a story(Immortal Technique) or sending a letter(Drake) and communicating a message like the two I mentioned in my first post. Though even then its all on a scale, you could easy argue Drake's 'Hot line bling' the most mainstream of mainstream love letter raps is communicating a message about whether or not female sexual liberation leaves a woman happier or not.
I dig this as a description really, 'Folk Tradition' is a perfect name for it.
>many of the writers and poets were also musicians. If alive today, they would mostly certainly be rappers
are you fucking serious? do you really think that's a reasonable assertion?
The term is quite vague, there isn't really any metric for determining whether something is pop and dividing music between vague and arbitrary concepts like "popular" and "undeground" are taxonomically incorrect as they do not exist in concrete reality. I could be wrong though. I've only read a little on the aesthetics of popular music.
I do, yes. Controversial...who cares.
Lol "sonnet" comes from Italian "sonetto," literally "little song." Donne composed a sonnet about the embarrassment he felt upon hearing one of his sonnets (on unrequited love) set to music by a Bard. It's not stupid, or controversial at all - you're the one who's full of shit.
Hip hop is more popular than the Beatles. It literally ousted the rock song as the main format.
This guy is right, /mu/ is a much better board where we can talk about hip hop without having to worry about "literary ability" or "originality". There we can find like-minded people who ignore those things and recognize that Young Thug is basically just as talented as Ezra Pound.
Hey, why don't we all go there right now?
>"Rap's not poetry!"
>board regularly praise early modern and Romantic sonnets
>regularly praises lyric poetry
>no gives a reason, or even criteria that they use to define literature
Some suggested reading for you trogladytes
>ignoring examples of Naz, Kendrick, and others in the thread
>implying anyone gives two shits about Young Thug's lyrics
>implying Young Thug's production isn't what people like
>implying you know anything about music production
>implying you don't sound like Hopsin
you don't have to come up with some autismo definition of poetry (which no one has ever done very convincingly) to know intuitively that nigger rants over drum beats comes no where near what people like donne, ww, coleridge, blake, frost are working in
naz and kendrik are P shit desu.
I can't imagine anyone would actually think their lyrics count as poetry.
You could make a better argument for death metal lyrics being poetic(stronger in comparison, but still not a good one). At least they go over the same subject matter in original ways as opposed to literally saying the same thing over and over.
so it rhymes and misuses "fancy" words like negrollectuals do. you can't expect anybody here to fall for it being poetry without resorting to some kind of "heyy.. poetry is ultimately undefinable.." weedfart
Rap is poetry, but it's poetry of such mediocre caliber that it merits absolutely zero discussion. You understand that most verses written by rappers are completed in about fifteen minutes and read off an iPhone while high, right? I'm actually irritated that somebody would be ignorant and deluded enough to compare the incredibly detailed and intelligent and complex compositions of Stevens and Shakespeare to the improvisational murmurings of intoxicated, uneducated rappers who can barely even form a sentence, let alone compose an insightful and beautiful reflection on the fragility of life or the unstoppable forces of time.
Raps are not written to tell stories or educate people, that is a fucking myth, fuck your KRS-One and Black Thought revisionist bullshit. Raps are written to manipulate language itself into an instrument with little to no thought given to its coherence or structure or narrative or LITERARY QUALITY. The only important things when rapping are: does it fit the music's rhythm, does it rhyme, and does it trick dumb people into thinking you're cool.
Lyricism in hip hop is a fucking afterthought, that's why nobody takes it seriously.
Please fuck off, you clearly know a little bit about hip hop and virtually nothing about poetry, which is why you would be stupid enough to compare the two.
"Sing about Me (I'm Dying of Thirst)"
>two speaker changes
>complex rhythms instead of rigidly abiding by iambic pentameter
>implying ending line, "So in that Water and Pray that it works" isn't a complex articulation of faith (both trusting in the God to forgive and remake hi
while maintaining doubt that God could ever forgove his sins or that he could ever be a better person).
The last one especially is way better than wonky attempts to rationalize faith like Donne does in "Death be not Proud."
I know that faggot because I'm into Derrida; and to be honest you just put a target on your shit english degree and how sycophantic your own view is for your professors. You are not a special flower here just because you have read some post-structuralists. Sorry for the rude awakening, Lit is full of educated people who don't think like.
Sorry paying 500$~ a course to read cuck proffs who neuter real theory does not make your opinion "relevant". My lit overlords tell me to think for myself and not be brainwashed by PC bullshit, and It's not hard to say with a clear conscience that rap sits exactly with all other pop music lyrics on the scale of poetic importance: as in not at all.
Watch Mos Def try to talk politics here and get destroyed by not one but two actual writers. It's pretty embarrassing, and it really changed my opinion on whether or not rappers really have any understanding of politics.
My favorite rap song is "Coke & White Bitches: Chapter Two" by A$AP MOB:
>Nigga, cocaine connoisseur, white bitch carnivore
>You can see I'm high, no need to ponder more
>I put my nose to the straw and tear the condom off, I know I'm kinda off
>Human bath salt, with a passport
>And a cracker ho that give me what I ask for
>It's a party, every bitch here named Molly
'til crazy ass Gunplay came and Tec Nined it
>Just a thug on drugs, not doing much
>So skeed up, man I can't even nut
>Got the bitch jaw sore, ho can't even grub
>Who got the hoes and the blow, I wanna know, hit me up
There's so much symbolism behind the lines. I almost wouldn't be able to tell the difference between this and Ezra Pound if I didn't know any better.
Rap is excellent poetry. However most people who think they know 'rap' dont know shit. tupac is shit, nas's lyrics are awful.
Unfortunately rap-rating is a big memed out piece of shit. If you dont think tupac is the best its because youre an idiot compared to everyone else who has only listened to changes a few times and knows that hes the best.
tupac is a hypocritical shit rapper. Nas isnt that good, biggie is par.
The undoubted kings of the genre are
AZ - from what ive heard, must admit havent delved deep enough into his works
ooga booga give me money
ooga booga white girls honey
but drop the fro and get this hunna
ooga booga I such a stunna
There's zero difference between what I just wrote and Kendrick Lamar's most recent album, other than the fact that my verse was considerably less pretentious I suppose.
>RAP IS THIS
>gives vapid and rigid definition
Maybe, JUST MAYBE, people write raps with different motivations.
>implying lyrics of good kid M.A.A.D. City were written with no concern for literary quality
>implying it was organized with no concern for literary quality
>implying most authors write with "literary qualities" narrowly defined by your version of Theory in mind
Oh shit, boy, who just entered this thread? It's Busta "Nut" Rhymes!!!!!!
>Oh my, LOOOOOOOORD! Lower the casket - DOWN!
>Sprinkle the ash, or get your ass kicked, POW!
>Frown, while I shit on your crown, skip TOWN
>Ground zero, Shapiro the king, cash COW
>(COW!) Do I make 'em say "WOW!"? Strip! OW -
>BOW! I sit with the pound, (Click) POW!
>BLAOW! (Click, click) BLAOW! (Click) BLAOW!
>Stop traffic, dropping them classics, flip NOW!
>Bitches, I’m making them skip with thou -
>Art, you don’t really want start, when I growl
>(RAWR, RAWR, RAWR!) Let me come and mop up -
>The knock offs, when I pop off and never stop, cause
>When we do come through, you better lock doors
Give him an instrumental to do it over at least.
If nothing else, the ways rappers can put together complex rhymes, sometimes on the fly, is impressive.
You did not demonstrate that here.
But I'm out, this thread is just racism and shitposting with only a handful of thoughtful responses, none of which have gotten responses of their own.
>An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. MLK said this--
>There needs to be a generation in this lifetime, in this time that we're living in, at least half of a generation, that lives without war. For the sake of the children and for the sake of the environment that we all, you know, so covet now.
Incorrect. You cannot do it as well as they can. You are on /lit/ not /mu/ so don't act like you are the overseer of this conversation and some intellectual philosopher-king, you are nothing special
People like Young Thug's delivery moreso than his lyricism, which does challenge some of hip-hop's reigning conventions. In that sense you could say he's like a modernist poet.
His lyrics are often clever, but putting him on the poetic calibre of pound is fucking ridiculous.
Even suggesting they deal in the same kinds of talent is fucking ridiculous.
But the rapper with the most poetic depth and merit is a college-educated Jewish guy lmao
Most rappers who require any sort of complex analysis beyond some clever wordplay or simple literary devices are actually outsiders and aren't heavily played in the "hood". DOOM is a good example. It's mostly patronizing white people who are obsessed with "street poetry" and proving rap is literary so they don't have to feel guilty for liking it. Modern, conscious rap is almost solely supported and consumed by white people.
If the shit slaps it slaps, you don't have to pretend it's Yeats.
"Sing about Me (I'm Dying of Thirst)"
>two speaker changes
>complex rhythms instead of rigidly abiding by iambic pentameter
>implying ending line, "So hop in that Water and Pray that it works" isn't a complex articulation of faith (both trusting in divine Grace to forgive his sins while maintaining skepticism that God could ever forgove his sins or that he could ever be a better person).
It suggests acknowledgment of his personal responsibility for his actions and an acknowledgment of social forces that shape them. It's also a way better characterization of faith than wonky attempts to rationalize faith like Donne does in "Death be not Proud."
>implying the chronological reorganization of the album doesn't suggest literary consciousness.
I guarantee you every person arguing that rap is poetry in this thread has never read a book of poetry and is either still an undergraduate in college or is underageb& in high school.
You morons piss me the fuck off. I have no reason to doubt you go to a state college, smoke pot all day, and have sub-110 IQs.
"Oh look how progressive and cultured I am by listening to hip hop music!" Fucking middle class suburbanite pseuds.
>It takes 2 poetic devices and a simplistic ending line regardless of execution, content or context to convince you Kendrick Lamar is on par with the poetic masters
This is why nobody takes fans of "real hip hop" seriously. You drop the bar so fucking low so you can insist you like a high art because you're insecure.
>implying you've read any early modern or Romantic sonnets or lyric poems
Rap are basically these but with better rhyme schemes, and rhythm (only rhythm structure that comes close to to the complexity of hip hop flows is tumbling verse).
Also literally zero acknowledgement kg the elephant in the room: early modern poets like Shakespeare and Donne write in forms that re less complex and with themes that are at best on Par with good rappers
It's weird to me that people think 'poetry' has some underlying positive connotation to it. You might as well argue that selfies aren't photographs because they're not above some quality threshold
And the early moderns are head and shoulders above the Romantics (exception: Coleridge) so let's just ignore that problem too.
Either you're going to have to agree that a lot of the early Canon isn't lit, or admit SOME rap is lit.
>Implying I'm that guy and I haven't listened to GKMC extensively
Themes are relatively universal and it's hard to make normative statements about them. I don't know how one theme is better than another.
You also quite obviously have not read Shakespeare.
I never implied rap had no literary merit, but I have yet to hear any that's on par with the poetic masters, as you seem to be implying. Rappers rely on soundscaping and flashy cleverness, and aren't even in the same tier of aesthetic depth or achievement as the great poets.
Because of the kind of people who would make this thread. People who are so desperate to hold up proof of black intellectualism that they forget to make sure that the black intellectual they are praising is actually intelligent.
See also: Toni Morrison, that black lady from MSNBC with two last names, and Ta-Nehisi Coates
>Please fuck off, you clearly know a little bit about hip hop and virtually nothing about poetry, which is why you would be stupid enough to compare the two.
actually I agree with this poster. I saying people like thugger just for his production really undermines what he has done to innovate rythmatic delivery. I recommend reading andrew nos on young thug, he has some illustrative examples where he quotes Stockhausen on polyrythems.
I am also rather surprised that no one mentioned Earl Sweatshirt, Deltron 3030, Rappin Fo-tay, or Slick Rick.
Each of these artists uses fairly dense rhyme schemes. Del in preticular is someone invested in flattening the canon, while I doubt he is conscious of the influence, I see his attitude towards his reference points as in debt to deluize and guttari. (very much aligned with contemporary poets, Joshua Clover might be an apt comparision).
comparing rap to poetry is like comparing rock and roll lyrics to poetry. Sometimes it works like poetry, but always in service of a spoken delivery. However, it is surely a two way street, just as rap lyrics initially where heavily indebted to black nationalist (and pan african) poetry of the 1970s , a lot of contemporary academic poetry references (and I would argue, is organically influenced by) rap music. I want to share with you some examples of both rap informed by poetry and poetry informed by rap. lets start with the latter.
an excerpt from Uyen Hua's book " A/S/L " , a collection of poems touching on popular culture.
One issue that I suspect those of you who do not consider rap to be a valid poetic form may harp on is that quite a lot of the academic writing which references rap music tends to focus on the rap music which presents itself (i think self conciously) as low brow, there is a bit of tension here, we should talk about it a bit.
Explain how soundscaping is somehow inferior to other poetic devices or how Shakespeare's sonnets/anything by Skelton isn't as thematically complex (especially in regards to contemplations of mortality and spirituality) as GKMC.
Also explain how 'Speare punning on dick/his own name in sonnet 135 isn't "flashy."
Also Kendrick Lamar genuinely believes contrasting an innocent thing with a dirty thing is a new, exciting literary device.
>In an interview with Rolling Stone, he was quoted as saying, "Just putting the word 'pimp' next to 'butterfly'... It's a trip. That's something that will be a phrase forever. It'll be taught in college courses—I truly believe that." In an interview with MTV, Lamar said: "To Pimp a Caterpillar was the original name and they caught it because the abbreviation was Tupac, Tu-P-A-C. Me changing it to Butterfly, I just really wanted to show the brightness of life and the word 'pimp' has so much aggression and that represents several things. For me, it represents using my celebrity for good. Another reason is, not being pimped by the industry through my celebrity."
This is the man you're lauding as a genius.
>Watch Mos Def try to talk politics here and get destroyed by not one but two actual writers
christopher hitchins and rushdie keep shilling for the now discredited Iraq war and spouting anti iran lies, mos def wants to bring the conversation back to america's failure to protect its own people in new orleans..
how does hitchens come across looking better?
>especially in regards to contemplations of mortality and spirituality
The hack theology that has been present in rap albums for years, doesn't even remotely compare to what Blake or even Wagner had to offer. It's almost always laughably immature.
Because soundscaping exists outside the realm of poetry and despite the fact that rap has poetic elements, rap music and poetry are not the medium. Music is not a poetic device but is essential to the perceived quality of rap music. Do you honestly expect me to believe GKMC would stand on its own in serious circles as spoken word or a book?
Instances of flashiness in early modern poetry don't invalidate the fact that rap is pop music and relies primarily on memetic lines. Again looking at GKMC, the songs that received the most recognition were party rap songs like swimming pools and backseat freestyle guised in perspective changes. Here you are talking about complicated spirituality yet the lyric that sold the album was "I PRAY MY DICK GET BIG AS THE EIFFEL TOWAH SO I CAN FUCK THE WORLD FOR 72 HOUAHS". A dick pun does not sell Shakespeare or Skelton.
You mean dealing with oppression and finding liberation in Grace that Blake and Wagner never could have known? The wack rationalization of faith that are remnants of the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods?
Hip hop panders to the pseudointellectual and hedonistic whims of teenagers and college students. Maybe 100 years from now critics will call it poetry, but for now I think it's shit and all who argue for it will have to settle with "being ahead of your time."
Can we let this thread die now?
That chorus did not sell the album
(Or even that song). The pun on Will is the motif that lholds the sonnet together lol of course it "sells" the poem (whatever that means).
>confusing commercial value and literary value of a work
>misinterpreting Swimming Pools
Just because the crudeness of the early moderns looks dressed up with early modern language to present day readers does not mean they're somehow less crude than modern day rappers. They're just as nasty - Kanye's sexual puns are literally on par with the sexual puns of Donne, Shakespeare, etc... even if many of his lyrics are not.
>rigidly separating music and poetry by medium even though rhythm and meter are borrowed from music
I just don't buy your argument "soundscaping is strictly musical" argument.
Oppression is the shallowest of all human relations (this is since the rise of sociological conflict theory) . Bringing a spiritual element into such a thing only demonstrates an inflated self importance.
If that is what rap spirituality has to offer, it must be inherently shallow and derivative. Blake manages the same sentiment in a much more concise manner.
many people consider this the first rap song, and It might not be for everyone, but i think its clearly a poem.
another guy I like, who I think uses pretty dense schemes is the aforementioned rappin fotay
more recent bun b work is p much unremarkable, but UGK express sadness very well.
when we talk about sadness, I think it is worth mentioning the Geto boys, i suspect you know this song,
I especially like the last verse where he assumes the perspective of George Bush, i would argue that this is a similer stratagem of over identification to that used by the Neu Sloven Kunste artists, and coming out around the same time.
final line of "Sing About Me" encapsulates a complex understanding of faith that rivals metaphysical poets like Donne, and evades some of their awkward rationalizations of spirituality (see "Death be not Proud").
I didn't misinterpret Swimming Pools, I simply stated the fact that it's remembered and utilized as a drinking song, despite its intentions, because nobody gives a fuck about its literary merit and even if you understand the incredibly simple actual message of the song, it doesn't merit studious analysis beyond a Fader article. And we're talking about the sonnets alone here. Please name a rap song that's on par with say Sailing to Byzantium in terms of aesthetic and emotional expression.
>Kanye's sexual puns are literally on par with the sexual puns of Donne, Shakespeare, etc
Okay, they they are the same in that they are sexual puns.
>even if many of his lyrics are not.
Soundscaping, as in production, is non-lyrical music and therefore not a part of poetry you mong.
Kendrick and most "poetic rap" is slam poetry tier and slam poetry is garbage.
>"I hope I get saved but I might not" qualifies as a complex understanding of faith
Because its the most prominent relationship with no moral ambiguity. We're forced (or at least obligated) to despise the oppression and sympathize with the oppressed. There's genuinely no interesting way that it can be expressed artistically.
>Not having an act to grind with the father of our contemporary nihilism.
Every sociologist and economist should be locked away.
>We're forced (or at least obligated) to despise the oppression and sympathize with the oppressed. There's genuinely no interesting way that it can be expressed artistically.
This is a pretty good point. Add to that the fact that any art that reverses or challenges this dynamic will be attacked or censored by those pushing what you described. It's the most intellectually stagnant theme to deal with.
>I simply stated the fact that it's remembered and utilized as a drinking song, despite its intentions, because nobody gives a fuck about its literary merit
You're criticizing popular culture, not the song.
>even if you understand the incredibly simple actual message of the song,
>"I hope I get saved but I might not" qualifies as a complex understanding of faith"
Many of Donne's metaphysical poems on faith can literally be boiled down to this. Fuck it, I'll oversimplify "Ozymandias" and the book of Ecclesiastes while we're at it: "Shit don't last." Many themes in literature can be simplified to single sentences.
If you need me to explain how that last line and his conception of faith are sufficiently complex, here:
Many Christian converts that buy into a version of Lutheran/Grace theology usually jump to a logical argument that's something like this:
Belief -> sins forgiven -> worthiness of communion with God.
They never have, and don't think about the gravity of sin, to the point that they don't understand from which they've been saved and possess concrete sureness in their salvation that seems contradictory to the very idea of faith. Kendrick is aware of his sins, his fallibility, to the point that he has no rational reason to be sure it will work, but puts his trust in baptism anyways. That's a complex idea encapsulated in 10 words.
Not that any other poetical works discussed on this board are evaluated for complexity of "message" seeing as evaluating quality is never about "the message" but how an author *represents* said "message" (if they're representing a message at all). Seems like you're biased against rap and holding it up to literary standards to which you wouldn't hold other works.
>soundscaping can't be lyrical
Soundscape is literally the component of the acoustic environment that can be perceived by humans, including sounds made by humans (like lyrics). If you're referring to retroactive production of said soundscape, even that can be a poetic device (using synths to alter your voice etc...) that are no different than changing one's intonation, or other *performative* aspects of poetry. Attempting to say "well it wouldn't hold up if it weren't performed" is such a horse shit argument. It is performed and that performance is part of the work's poetical identity.
And we're talking about the sonnets alone here. Please name a rap song that's on par with say Sailing to Byzantium in terms of aesthetic and emotional expression.
Sing About Me is my answer. Hate all you want.
>Because its the most prominent relationship with no moral ambiguity. We're forced (or at least obligated) to despise the oppression and sympathize with the oppressed. There's genuinely no interesting way that it can be expressed artistically.
Not even remotely true - many sociological texts are interested in the effects this relationship has on the oppressor (you can't study sociology and Faulkner without doing this). Toni Morrison has also written PLENTY about it. There are just shit tons of undergrads who simplify it to what you're talking about.
>Not even remotely true - many sociological texts are interested in the effects this relationship has on the oppressor
Doesn't most of it boil down to this: "The act of oppression is ultimately restrictive and h
armful to the oppressor." The subject won't be interesting until people start portraying what is called oppression is portrayed as just, righteous, or spiritually fulfilling. (And I'm aware that some, if not all definitions, of oppression define it as unjust.) To be fair, I don't think such a stance would really attract any intelligent people; the fact that it's attracted me is evidence enough of this.
>There are just shit tons of undergrads who simplify it to what you're talking about.
My grievances have more to do with the activists that have borrowed these ideas and used them to destroy the discourse. The political climate has become so polarized that, instead of discussion to reach common solutions to the problems we face, each side just looks for the best way to dismiss the other. If their rhetoric is dependent on the ideas of social scientists, I must find a way to to dismiss the disciplines.
What I find interesting in art is not the same as how I want the world to be.
>Please name a rap song that's on par with say Sailing to Byzantium in terms of aesthetic and emotional expression.
not sure where this obsession with ranking subjective experience comes from. these seems like a rather "my five year old could do it", reactionary, impulse.
i took the earlier comment to infer that these subjects could be ranked catagoricly or impericly rather then hollisticly or intuitivly, some kind of bertrand russle "is it half of one percent true" instead of the more contenetnial "is it true or false"