Hector's the only one fighting without god mode activated. He has a family & he risks everything in fighting - knowing that they are doomed if he dies. He is afraid, but fights anyway, because he can't abandon his brothers in arms. He's the perfect foil to Achilles.
It wasnt helens fault, it was the goddesses' and odysseus for making that pledge. Hellen is a pawn.
Is paris a greek nane? I have never heard of it being used in the ancient world. What does it mean? Were the trojans related to the greeks? I know the greeks and the trojans are set apart, but are they "fringe greeks" like the macedonians?
>>7559978 There is nothing to argue about. Everyone knows and agrees diomedes is a boss. The most noble, level headed, brave and one of the best warriors even though he is youngest of all the hero's. Not much to discuss, desu.
>>7558906 Naming conventions in the Iliad and odyssey are widely written about in classical studies. You've got to remember that the Trojan was supposedly fought roughly 800 years before the classical era from whence we get most of our information and writing. Many of the names of Greek heroes kind of fall out of fashion in those intervening years.
As far as the name "Paris" (Πάρις) goes it's probably Luwian (Hittite related). It's worth noting he is sometimes called Alexander (Αλέξανδρος) which means leader of men.
The Trojans are not Greeks. During the classical era (and even possibly in the time of Homer's composing) eastern Anatolia is firmly in the Greek orbit. But the era of Greek colonization takes place in the 700s, too late for the Trojans to be Greeks (or fringe Greeks as you call them).
>>7559978 Don't forget about Diomedes and based Odysseus stealing the horse of Rhesus from the Thracians.
Or when Diomedes meets Glaucon in battle, realizes that his grandfather, Oeneus, was guest friends with Glaucon's grandfather, Bellerophon, and that they must carry on the tradition of mutual respect. Some humanity in all the mindless slaughter.
whaat else did achilles do before the trojan war? is he truly the greatest greek warrior ever? what about hercules? achilles must have had his kids when he was really young since he died young himself and he has a son thatlater avenges him.
Teucer is the true hero of the Trojan War: Menelaus: "In my life I’ve seen a man who shouted with a reckless tongue at his sailors, pushing them to go on sailing, right through a terrible storm. But then, when the storm came, when the wild winds began to charge, this man was heard no more. Not a sound from him! He crawled under his cloak and just lie there. The sailors rushed about, trampled all over him, as their needs demanded and he still didn’t utter a sound! Just like you, Teucer! You and your fierce shouting! Well, some little cloud will come and blow a mighty storm upon you and upon your tongue and put an end to all your noise!" Teucer: "And I’ve seen a man, too, Menelaus. A very stupid man who harassed people in their time of trouble until a man, whose heart was just like mine, saw him and spoke to him. He told him, “man, do not hurt the dead because if you do, you’ll get hurt.” That was the advice he gave to that stupid man; and that stupid man was you, Menelaus. Is that too difficult a riddle for you?"
Anyone who disses Achilles (as moderns are wont to do) is a fucking fool. Achilles is the greatest hero in literature bar none. Why? Because out of all the Greek and Trojan meatheads slugging away at each other for 10 years, Achilles is the only one to stop and think: "Isn't this all completely pointless? Do I really want to die in battle and never see my homeland again?". As a character Achilles comes face-to-face with war, death, nihilism and challenges the heroic ethos itself. It's the core of the poem and absolutely fucking gripping, so much more interesting than the one-dimensional sociopaths that make up the rest of the Greek army, dumb jocks like Diomedes who go around executing Trojan prisoners for teh lulz.
>>7560561 In Athens the hoplites fought until 60 (I realise they aren't exactly comparable times) and I think at some point he refers to using a staff and his white hair, so more like 70 desu. Remember he's meant to be REALLY old, and well looked after humans could live that long in any period, it's just the number who do drasticly falls.
>>7557594 The Illiad is from the pre- and post-literate Greek Dark Age. It doesn't have traditional narrative features because it's basically the/a cornerstone of Western literature.
You can't think of it in terms of sympathy or even modern narrative structure. That's why it's so weird to most people when it "ends" so abruptly without resolving the issue of the war. Most people reconcile it in a more nuanced modern way, by saying "oh, it's a vignette in the larger war," but it's not even that. It's just that the Iliad doesn't fit later narrative structures which partly grew out of it and the culture which produced it.
Stop trying to think of it in terms of modern tropes like heroes and anti-heroes and sympathetic tragic falls etc. Some of that stuff is in there but it's better to approach it on its own terms than try to work backwards from your own. It's a story about the qualities and experiences of men that were perceived to be important/spiritually fundamental by poets and their audiences in the Greek Dark Age. The usual major aspects: http://www.uh.edu/~cldue/3307/time.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleos
Try to understand it as an illiterate Greek nobleman or freeman who probably not infrequently was levied to defend his crops, or who had been in the kind of fighting "Homer" is describing, probably watching relatives and friends dying in the ways Homer described, but who also had the experience of time and kleos himself, who had inflicted the same kinds of wounds on young men and old men, stripped the mutilated dead of their armour, etc. Your fundamental assumptions about the logic of the world turn on issues of pride, glory, strength, greatness, but also hubris and the fall of the arrogant.
It helps to try to picture the characters of the Iliad NOT as complete and densely "packed" protagonists in the sense we're often used to these days, with each character sometimes representing a philosophical argument or spiritual stance or something. That might be partly true for someone like Achilles, where there is a stark dilemma, but for most of the story it's more like the underlying philosophies and attitudes of the Greeks are playing themselves out across and through all the men of the war. Every guy who has glory has to grapple with hubris as a result, but it's not a simplistic story about the inevitability of hubris either.
Dodds is pretty good desu http://www.acampbell.org.uk/bookreviews/r/dodds.html
>>7562583 >You can't think of it in terms of sympathy
I don't mean you can't be sympathetic once you understand them on their own terms (however you hash out the historicism/hermeneutics, whatever), just that you can't be immediately sympathetic, like "wow, I can't like Odysseus, he's just a dick."
>>7562570 there were gods on either side, The judgement of paris is the main reason hera and athena are angry. Aphrodite likes helen and paris, both are beautiful. Other reasons as well. Ares doesn't seem to have a favourite. Overall, the reason troy had to fall was because it was fated. That's all zeus is doing, assuring fate runs its course
>>7558936 Achilles is probably in his 30-40's seeing how he has a son who was literally within fighting age at the end of the war. Hector would probably be mid 30's to 40's seeing how he was around in Priam's court when Menelaus and Odysseus went to peacefully get Helen before the war, and the fact that he's put in charge of the Trojan forces not only because he's one of the fifty sons of Priam. Aeneas would probably in his early 30's. He isn't referred much as a experienced older peer by Hector in the Iliad or Rhesus, but still old enough to have a son at the end of the war whose old enough to run on foot on his own from Troy, and not be carried by Aeneas -- not to mention there's a point in the Aeneid where his son is old enough to draw a bow and fight and lead a few men. Nestor, from what I recall in Metamorphoses is supposed to be uber-old. Like in his 80's. Old enough that he can't fight in battles or compete in the chariot race.
Is odysseus also referred by the geeks as "tricky" or just as "cunning /intelligent"? The romans seemed to view him negatively, is it because of his scheming AND the fact that he helped in the fall of troy or just one of those?
>>7562768 He was called "tricky" and a "immoral" by the Classical Greeks.
In Philoctetes, he threatens to kill Philoctetes, and later, Achilles' son, if he doesn't give up his bow, and threatens to kill Philoctetes' father when the war is over; Achilles' son goes on a whole rant about how people who lie to get there way like him are evil which is clearly condemning him as a character.
In Hecuba, he basically compels Agememnon to carry out a sacrifice of the daughters of Priam and Hecuba to Achilles' shade even though it wasn't necessary to do-so in-order to return home or anything. He acts cunningly when Hecuba pleads to him to not to do so bringing up how she saved his life when he went disguised as a beggar to spy in Troy and got caught and taken to Priam's court, where she showed him mercy and released him, and pleads to him to sacrifice herself instead if he honors the Gods. To which Odysseus replies that he's technically in the right because she's not the one being sacrificed, and because of that he acts like he filled his life-debt to her even though she wasn't even picked to be sacrificed.
In the Trojan Women, the herald for the Greeks condemns him for compelling the Greeks to carry out the sacrifice mention above and for calling to kill Hector's son by throwing him down Troy's ramparts before Hecuba gets sent away as a slave to him.
In Iphigenia in Aulis, he's the one that pushed Agamemnon to sacrifice his daughter to Artemis for the Greek fleet to in-order set sail to Troy, as it was said that he threatened to set the Greek ranks against him if he didn't sacrifice her, and made him lie to her and Clytemnestra to tell them that she was getting married to Achilles in Aulis.
In Helen, he's called a lying scoundrel by Teucer for his role in Ajax's death, and he brings up other supposed offenses of him..
>>7562583 spot on post, except a nitpick >Stop trying to think of it in terms of ... heroes and anti-heroes Its perfectly acceptable to understand the Iliad through its heroes and what it means to be heroic.
>>7564387 These are all plays by Euripides who has an ax to grind against the Athenian state. In Athens, Odysseus is hailed as the quintessential Greek hero, perhaps even more than Achilles.
Compare Sophocles' favorable treatment of Odysseus in Ajax vs all the Euripides plays you just posted. Odysseus is the hero for the classical era, an period that eschews brute strength (at least nominally) and idolizes intelligence/craftiness. The death of Ajax is supposed to symbolize the end of timê and birth of mêtis as the guiding principles of the Greeks.
I think what the other poster means by "they are not canon" is that they are not part of the homeric canon but a reinterpretation of the homeric themes to make a commentary on the Greek's contemporary classical society.
>Would the average Greek or Roman know speeches from the plays by heart?
The average member of the cognoscenti would have. Lower class would not.
>What do you guys think of Seneca's plays?
Marginally inferior philosophy than the Greeks, far inferior poetry.
>Favorite female character from that whole mythology?
Atalanta is pretty great. You can check her out in the Metamorphoses. Camilla is based too.
>>7565330 This but I wouldn't say Odysseus was /the/ hero for the classical age, I think it was multipolar and it at least showed how Athens would be reflected in the wider greek point of view. Reliance on intelligence being displayed as dishonest in a world of manly men.
I mean I don't know but contrast with the Athenian portrayal of Theseus.
Wrong, Philoctetes is by Sophocles. A pretty late one, actually, written in the twilight of his life and at the peak of his craft, if Oedipus at Colonus is anything to go by, which was written around the same time.
So I dunno what to do with your otherwise interesting thesis, that Sophocles was mostly positive about Odysseus as some sort of ideal hero for the classical era against whom Euripides was trying to be culturally and politically subversive.
I think any shrewd Athenian would have seen a role model in Odysseus, yet nevertheless traditional notions of honor, at least publicly, were still the espoused norm. Consider Pericles funeral oration.
I guess I'm saying Sophocles probably embraced a nuanced view of Odysseus. The portrayal in Philoctetes isn't completely flattering, but I think that what Odysseus wants to achieve in that play (the reconciliation of Philoctetes with the city) is ultimately best for everyone. Primarily for him, secondarily for the body politic, and only accidentally for Philoctetes himself. Phil's pain and anger are made secondary compared to the needs of the city (Odysseus' public rhetoric), and his reconciliation will speed the end of the war (Odysseus' innermost, self-centered desire).
It's all kinda shockingly modern and amoral sounding to me, actually.
How do you consider Plato's treatment of Odysseus, esp in the Republic? How does it fit into to your idea of what he meant to the classical Athenians?
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