>>7543731 Did you feel guilty the instant afterwards? if so, how did you assess your sense of guilt towards her? i'm constantly sneaking vague antinatalist sentiments into random conversations with my mom, makes me feel leacherous
>>7543737 >Did you feel guilty the instant afterwards? Not really. I believe it. I'm pretty Marxist, so I see having to work in the capitalist state as living death anyway. Even ancient states had provisions for the basic welfare of all citizens--our system is literally absurd. I feel bad my mom has to work though; eventually I will take over the reigns assuming someone will actually hire me. I have an M.A. in lit and get turned down to the places I apply, which I feel is less a reflection upon me as upon this debased society.
>>7543746 Kojeve completely transformed my understanding of philosophy.
>>7543761 Well you have an education, so there's no reason you should be a NEET. However, based on your beliefs, I would do as >>7543586 recommended and simply embrace it all the more.
Unless your parents are really struggling, there's no reason why you shouldn't benefit off of them IF you are doing something truly creative with your free time. If you want to be a writer for example, I see no reason for you to waste your life not writing if that's what you want to do.
The only bad things about being a NEET is if 1) you're relaxing while your parents are struggling (as opposed to comfortably amassing wealth in jobs that they would work no matter what, your influence being simply a kind of extra tax on their savings as opposed to actually reducing their present consumption and quality of life), or 2) if you don't take advantage of your extra freedom to pursue creative activities the rest of us can't.
I'm not a NEET, but I'd like to see more NEETs embrace it (if they can) rather than waste time feeling bad about themselves or working pointless "jobs."
I appreciate your insight. There are a few reasons it's not working out. My mom wants to retire. Even though she makes literally 6 figures, she complains about supporting me and says it can't keep going on. She was very bad with finances early in life and racked up debt so perhaps it's true.
I'm not doing anything creative right now, just reading a lot. I put together a serious body of photography for a few years (while I was working and in school mostly) that I would like to continue working on, but I don't have the money for travel/film/developing/printing (mom is only providing food and shelter). And I can't start any other creative projects because I'm supposed to be getting a job.
The main issue for me is the social stigma. Not from people I respect, but from women. I don't feel comfortable admitting to girls I still live at home, so I just don't date. But I am handsome and fit and by all means should be dating. I am missing out on the last fresh pussy of my life, at least until I become a professor and fuck my students.
>>7543820 >The main issue for me is the social stigma. Not from people I respect, but from women. I don't feel comfortable admitting to girls I still live at home, so I just don't date. But I am handsome and fit and by all means should be dating. I am missing out on the last fresh pussy of my life, at least until I become a professor and fuck my students.
This is LITERALLY the ONLY REASON more people don't become NEET. There are countless young men shuffling to some awful job early in the morning and trudging home at night to a damp, tiny high-rent room in the faint hope that their suffering will be rewarded with PTP, or a mating partner in the very least. It's absolutely disgraceful, but as a NEET of two years now I have no sympathy for these people. Sometimes when I get anxious or guilty I take the train at evening rush hour and walk through the city and the sight of the exhausted masses ambling home with bags literally hanging from their dead eyes reassures me and sends me home in high spirits. There are literally people reading THIS POST who work a full-time job and claim to "enjoy" the enforced schedule that is their life, and what's more many of these people will DEFEND their decision to spend their brief experience of consciousness on this planet on their hands and knees thanking some capricious manager for allowing them the opportunity to "contribute to society". It really is like something from a dystopian comic.
>>7543820 >The main issue for me is the social stigma. Not from people I respect, but from women. I don't feel comfortable admitting to girls I still live at home, so I just don't date. But I am handsome and fit and by all means should be dating. I am missing out on the last fresh pussy of my life, at least until I become a professor and fuck my students. >not fucking girls in your race car bed then getting your mummy to prepare breakfast for the two of you Fucking betas, I swear
>>7543835 >PTP Amen. It is so easy these days too, with phone apps and all. Basically my only motivation for getting employed and out of my mom's place. But I am too much of an elitist to get a random job at a store or restaurant.
>>7543761 >I'm pretty Marxist You believe in a ideology where Workers Are The Most Value Part Of Society, that is working is important and you want to be NEET.
Kindly explain which parts of Marxism you want realised, the collapse of capitalism perhaps. Pretty girls will always gravitate towards the guy with most coconuts, making coconuts as valuable as a girls pussy, people build entire civilisations for that thing, if you want people to stop working you want women to stop having power.
>>7543835 You have created a mindset where it is impossible for their to be a fulfilling life. It is impossible to be wrong because either they hate working in which it all confirms their view or they are in self denial. But it's not an argument. I could do the exact same thing as you. Every NEET is unhappy, everyone who claims to be is lying. It's not an argument, it's a belief structured so that one never has to actually confront what one believes.
Do you really think all those professional classical musicians out there despise having to work? Do you think astronauts hate their jobs. Do Olympic athletes hate what they do? Do you think that people that most of the people who this board is dedicated to hated creating great works of art with words and get paid for it? I picked up martial arts because I thought it was important to extend myself, to achieve excellence in things that fall outside my comfort zone and it has greatly enriched my life. You can do the same thing with many sorts of jobs. You are choosing not to do that. You have decided work is shit and have intentionally adopted a mindset which will forever prevent you from being happy while working.
Also the fact you talk about your life being indebted to some capricous manager is an important tell in that it shows you choose to pretend that all work is terrible hospo or retail for minimum wage. Their are so many ways to live. It's not NEET or McDonalds.
I don't like the attitude I've seen in a number or NEETs where they believe that their internal inner life is so rich, so much more powerful than everyone else that other people ought to be unhappy (at least according to the NEET idea that working must be terrible) to allow them to not work. You are not that special. You are not some great artist. You are not a Mozart, or a Rembrandt, or a Shakespeare.
I don't have a boss. I work with people. Everything is an agreement between equals. I don't work much, choose when and where I work, get paid lots and is the sort of job that I can treat as a practice in the MacIntye sense. The work I do, and the standard I hold myself to when doing it, and the reputation I have is all a part of my excellence. I don't need my job to pursuer excellence but strong people, people who embrace challenge are going to be able to find a way to life off of their on means that is agreeable to their disposition and temperament and engage it as part of the fulfilled life.
One of the main reasons I'm NEET is because it's depressing outside. Fat people, poorly-dressed people, wiggers, and other forms of degenerate trash are everywhere. I imagine having to interact with people like that every day must be awful.
There's inherently nothing wrong with being NEET, but I really hope you guys are working the fuck out, getting ripped as fuck, writing some fine classical literature, and getting some of that "PTP" with all that damn free time.
I work I.T. I love my job though, I get paid more than I know what to do with, and I have my free time to do what I want. It feels good man. I had my time of sitting on the couch smoking weed and letting the days go by, that shit gets old fast and seriously bums me out.
>>7546324 Resorting to cliched namecalling has no effect on the contemporary NEET. We are economic auto-didacts, self-taught philosophers and gifted visionaries. While others waste their life labouring under the orders of those who see only material cost in life, we pursue leisure above all else, knowing as we do that leisure and time to oneself is the basis of genius. Despite many people disliking the culture and society they help maintain through their work, and despite understanding now that we have only a single life on earth and that any meaning we attribute to it as the result of self-willed or socially-inculcated ideologies, they continue to wake early and trudge to their jobs for one single reason: Guilt. Throughout time religions have taken advantage of Man's guilt, a guilt experienced for no logical reason except that he unlike other animals is a self-aware being whose abstract thoughts conflict with the apparently practical, rational reality he finds himself a part of. We post-guilt NEETs will not bow to internal or external pressures encouraging us to sacrifice our contentment and sensitive dispositions for the sake of attaining money, or womenfolk. We alone stand proudly, detached from but keenly observant of the slave masses who yell at us for not being as unhappy as they are. We alone, we band of true men, defend our right to live a dignified life against those wishing to deprive of us of it. Yes you can mock, you can criticize, you can echo the demands your masters make upon you. But who is likely to regret their lives more? The noble and dignified NEETs who spend their truly precious time reading, pondering, philosophizing and engaging in critical, urgent debate online? Or the miserable, resentful masses, their eyes bloated and sagged by excess folds of skin, their hair falling out and their gums bleeding from stress, their bowels destroyed by a sedentary lifestyle spent at their desks clicking endlessly while their boss breaths down their necks? This is reality. This is 2015. We are the future.
for some people it is. it's not possible for many people to find jobs they enjoy, in many cases it's almost impossible and it will only get harder in the future.
if your only choice is NEET or low-paid highly unpleasant job, which it is for many people, NEET might actually be the best option. it's not always possible to have an enjoyable life just by trying, the world isn't fair.
>>7546324 To my mom and friends, maybe. To a stranger on the street? I just appear normal. Now, if I were crouched down in front of a business wearing a hoodie and baggy pants and injecting heroin into my arm, I would be instilling fear.
>>7546354 As one who has been enjoying the blessedness of NEETdom for the last few months, I must applaud you for your lofty post but even I would not dare generalize the NEET. We who are aware of the unparalleled value of time and the necessity of improving one's self ceaselessly surely constitute the minority of NEETs as one need only venture to some of the other boards on this Oriental unicycle riding forum to see why such stigma revolves around the NEET manner of being. If your post is sincere--if it is not I commend you for arousing this response--then know that I love and admire you for it is us, brother, who perceive the potential of man and overcome all insipid snares that threaten to prevent us from claiming what is ours.
>>7546449 >>7546463 the ideal situation for a neet would be receiving autismbux while simultaneously living with your parents. not sure how the bux are in ontario, but as a neet in bc I recieve 1.5k a month, plus I have the option to work and not lose my bux if I desire. if your parents can't support you, your only option is to get on the bux, find cheap rent and dumpster dive to save money.
>>7546495 BC anon here. I live with my mom, and receive a government cheque every few months for "low (no) income", but autismbux could be nice, too. I am diagnosed with ADD and anxiety. How did you get bux?
she begins as a lil wannabe poetess pursuing grants and scholarships and coattails and whatever to live that literary dream and talks about having to overcome alcoholism and parenting (and ends up a little religious but it'd nbd she's very literary about it) and how she began writing memoirs and shit
>>7543783 >Well you have an education, so there's no reason you should be a NEET. I don't think you know how the post-recession job market works.
If you've been unemployed for too long (could be as little as 3-6 months) and/or don't have contacts, there's a non trivial chance you'll never get an actual job again unless you go back to school for something else. If he didn't get practical skills in school (which he probably didn't cause lit MA) he might even get turned down for temp warehouse jobs ffs.
>>7546415 You can overtime forge a way of living. I'm not saying that if you work hard you can be as rich as trump. I'm saying that maybe you do have to work at MacyDs for a bit to earn some money but (unless you are tied down to a family) you can even in the worst situations in the west go the van life, enter a trade, work part time, backpack, study, do seasonal farming, join a commune. If where you live sucks and there are no good jobs save up some money and move. If you are single and have no one to care for there are many options on how to live. That's just a list of reasonably simple options. Most people (again without marital or care related obligations) lack the imagination/determination to escape their shit jobs.
>>7543835 Ha, you know there are a lot of things I want only because it will make me more attractive. I live near the downtown core of my city, where all the interesting places are and everything I need is located, which means that public transportation is more than adequate for my needs. However, any girl I want to date who lives in the suburbs is annoyed by me not having a drivers license/car and I can tell that girls who drive look down on me, like if I can't drive I'm forever a manchild since I missed a key milestone of adulthood.
It's not that the US is so bad. It's just that the job market never actually recovered after the recession - p much all the gains in employment were a result of the unemployed basically dropping out of society or people going into the working poor (part time, zero hour contracts, temp work, etc). Employers can still afford to tell people to fuck because there's still a huge line behind them.
>>7547484 most marxists are entitled; marx was entitled. how could someone discover and develop the true philosophy if they spent their whole life working minimum wage to put bread on the table for their family. FFS you people have no idea what marxism even is.
>>7547542 Pretty much this. There is a heavy social stigma against having a liberal arts degree; almost all jobs require some kind of inhumane technical 'qualification'. Many people realize it's absurd but nothing can be done because simple minded capitalists determine the structure of society.
>>7547542 It's not just the supply and demand of workers. Your employers have the legal right to fire you for pretty much whatever. Over here you actually have reasonable job security. If they don't have a damn good reason for letting you go it's so easy to take them to court to regret it.
>>7546415 >for some people it is. For retards it is* If you're stuck working at McDonald's your whole life without finding a better job you're stupid and/or a social autist I don't know how fucked up so hard and got your MA without even a bit of networking
>>7547051 >If you've been unemployed for too long (could be as little as 3-6 months) and/or don't have contacts, there's a non trivial chance you'll never get an actual job again That why you volunteer, it's like none of you know how to build a resume. I have no idea how you manage to have 0 contacts by the time you graduate with a fucking MA
>>7543835 Good post. I got my share of prime in University so I've broken the spell. Best thing people can do is fuck a bunch of girls as early as possible so they can get it out of their system, I think.
Whenever I doubt NEETdom I just look at job openings online for 30 seconds. Looking at the social media of former prime is also a great way to realise that you've made the right choice not getting caught up in that.
>>7544682 You make a reasonable point, but do note that you're choosing classical musicians, astronauts and only the smallest elite of athletes and artists as examples of a fulfilling worklife.
99.99% of people don't work those kind of jobs. Most people are trapped in shitty jobs working to maintain shitty kids in shitty houses with shitty mortgages and shitty bills that sit in shitty traffic in a shitty car.
You may have rewarding work yourself, but not everyone has the possibility to do so. When rewarding work is not available and you have the opportunity not to work, the latter is a much more sensible choice, since you can do rewarding things in your free time rather than do something you dislike for 40 hours a week.
Getting paid to do nothing is the next best thing to getting paid to do what you wanted to do anyway.
>>7550444 >tfw never had PTP >tfw chances of getting PTP are lowering as I become older
Fucking sucks man. I dated one girl in my life last year and found photos she still had of her and her first boyfriend throughout their teens. She always talked about him and stalked him on facebook etc, and I knew if he ever called her up she'd immediately go with him. It sucks having sex with a girl like that because they treat choking, rough sex and stuff so casually and there's something cold about them that I just didn't appreciate. I can't wait to fuck PTVRP when myOculus arrives.
I really don't understand the fascination with fucking a bunch of girls. Using other people as masturbatory vehicles is disgraceful. Participating in hook up culture often has severe, deleterious effects on a persons psyche and wellbeing... Ask anyone who has slept with a bunch of woman, or a woman who has slept with a bunch of men, if they they feel any better, or any more fulfilled for doing so. The answer is likely no. In fact, once they get out of that phase of their lives, they probably feel like shit about it.
>>7550480 It is not a good age for qt subtype PTP. They're pretty much dying out. In most cases they're jaded well before the age of consent. Teens are basically the new twenty something whores and twenty something whores are the new bitter thirty somethings. Fourty somethings are probably on suicide watch.
"Q. How have your own habits changed as a result of writing this book?
A. Since starting work on this book, I've lost about 30 pounds, I run every other morning (I'm training for the NY Marathon later this year), and I'm much more productive. And the reason why is because I've learned to diagnose my habits, and how to change them.
Take, for instance, a bad habit I had of eating a cookie every afternoon. By learning how to analyze my habit, I figured out that the reason I walked to the cafeteria each day wasn't because I was craving a chocolate chip cookie. It was because I was craving socialization, the company of talking to my colleagues while munching. That was the habit's real reward. And the cue for my behavior - the trigger that caused me to automatically stand up and wander to the cafeteria, was a certain time of day.
So, I reconstructed the habit: now, at about 3:30 each day, I absentmindedly stand up from my desk, look around for someone to talk with, and then gossip for about 10 minutes. I don't even think about it at this point. It's automatic. It's a habit. I haven't had a cookie in six months."
>>7550563 some sort of child at an office job, didn't realize he was eating a cookie every day because he was actually just lonely (but why was he lonely really? and why would 10 minutes of gossip instead of a cookie solve this loneliness, is he autistic?) but anyway, now he is running and even training for a marathon, the NY marathon actually.
>>7550614 and now i'm starting to like you, but you didn't really answer the question. how do you feel about carefully examining the mind to slowly reveal hidden desires and motivations, and root causes of dukkha?
>>7550617 i'm definitely drawing some parallels. wanna fight about it?
>>7550645 yeah insight meditation is what i practice, too. it's basically what the book is about, though it takes a westernized and pseudo-clinical approach in getting there. and of course it doesn't go nearly as deep, written as a self-help book for the average person.
>>7550631 Listen, buddy, you’ve been pissing me off all night. I don’t know who you think you are, but I’m getting sick of your shit. So enough talk. Let’s do this. Let’s go outside and settle this like emotionally stunted men. Forget the bouncers. Forget our friends. It’s just gonna be you, me, and our fragile egos that render us incapable of dealing with conflict in a socially responsible manner. Let’s go, asshole. You’re about ready to see I’m not the kind of guy who just sits back and handles grievances constructively. If you think I’m some pussy who has enough self-esteem to let an insult roll off his back, you’ve got another thing coming. So let’s refuse to calm down or back off and instead allow this situation to spin out of control like the developmentally arrested little boys we effectively are. That is, unless you’re not man enough by the criteria of my very limited and damaging conception of manhood. Come on, motherfucker. I’m not afraid of you or anything else, with the exception of allowing myself to be open and vulnerable with another human being. If you don’t get out of my face in the next three seconds I’ll beat you down the same way I’ve beaten down every genuine emotion I’ve ever experienced until the only feeling I’m still able to express is rage. You picked the wrong broken, emotionally insecure guy to mess with tonight, and I think it’s time for a throwdown between your toxic ideas of masculinity and mine. What the fuck did you just say? Nobody talks to me that way, or in any other way that would challenge my fragile conception of self. What the hell is your problem, man? If it’s the fact that you’re also unable to channel the bare minimum of empathy necessary to resolve this conflict without violence, then you’re in luck, pal. We can just step out into the parking lot and settle this man to man to inner child still starved for the approval and affection of his distant father. Oh, it’s on now, you sonofabitch. Tonight, you dredged up a lifetime’s worth of inadequacies that have repeatedly sabotaged my chances of developing into a mature adult, and because I have no other way of dealing with that frustration, you’re about to get your fuckin’ ass kicked. Hell, I’ll even take on your friends, as long as it allows me to continue avoiding a serious examination of the roots of my own anger. Unless you’ve got a better idea, tough guy.
>>7550475 The point of me mentioning such lofty jobs was a blow to the massive ego stroking that NEETs tend to do and how they feel they are better than all employed persons.
In regards to what you are saying about inability to find fulfilling work I will restate that the majority of cases where someone is not married, does not have kids, or does not care for another, then there are ample opportunities to forge a new way of living. Yes it might take some hard work but giving up just because something is going to be hard in the short term is just a defeatist attitude. You hate your dead end job? Look for another one. Assess what you need in your life and cut back making some many more options. Save up some money and move. I've have really shitty jobs before. Jobs I've had to have so I can have a roof over my head and food on my plate. I used that time to reorganise my life. I sat down and thought really hard about what things I want out of life. How do I achieve those ends. How long or hard is each goal going to be? Is the end result worth it? So I moved to a new city, left everything behind to get into a trade. Their aren't any trades where you are that you like? America is one of the largest western countries on the planet. Do research.
There really will be those people who are hopelessly downtrodden that any sort of progression out of that life is impossible, but the number of people who are is so much lower than the amount who think they are. I'm not spitting some pro-capitalistic anyone can be president bullshit. I saying that if you are realistic, smart, and hard working enough we live in a society where it is possible to find a fulfilling life.
i am trying to get out of neetdom too but i still finding it hard to give a shit
i've been applying to quite a few jobs and got an interview but the fucking faggot lied to me about calling me what a crock of horseshit. are there no fucking honest employers? i just applied to a warehouse and they take anyone so hopefully i'll get it. not even going to brush my hair for it though, i really don't give a fuck.
i just don't care anymore. probably not even going to wear pants and just wear my basketball shorts depending on the weather. i'm just going to tell them "i'll do the work because i want money." why is that not good enough anymore?
>>7552205 I wish I knew man. The bullshitting part of the job-hunt is always what depresses me. >why do you want to do blah? >oh, you know me, I lovvvvve blah and I've always had a passion for sucking customers dicks!
yeah it's horse shit. i really wish i could start a business. the only questions i would ask is "are you legal to work in the US (fucking immigrants)" and "when can you start?" if you're a shit worker i'll sack you. if you do well then good job, you didn't need to lie to me or bullshit me.
>>7552004 I appreciate the spirited response, but it still reeks of a 'there's a diamond somewhere in this shit heap if you look hard enough' biased optimism to be honest. 'There is an agreeable place for you in the workforce' is the same sort of idea as the popular 'there is a special someone out there for everybody just keep looking and putting yourself out there' rhetoric, while in reality most people don't end up with their dream job and soulmate. There is no good reason to believe there is a comfy life just waiting for everyone or even the majority of us except for wishful thinking.
As for me personally, NEETdom brings me what no form of employment can and what I value above most other things: Freedom from obligation. So I can already safely say no job can compete with it.
>>7552339 Dreamjobs and soul mates don't exist. You have to be practical. Most people in the west lack the sort of practical wisdom that the Greek philosophers had. They (people of today, not the Greeks) don't ask themselves what it means to be a good person and how should I live. When you ponder these questions deeply will a semblance of a good life emerge. Many people have shit jobs because they don't know what they actually want. With no port as destination no wind is favorable. In previous posts I put out several options for living outside of the workforce that didn't force other people to support your existence by doing the things you think suck. I'm not suggesting that their is a place in the workforce for everyone but most people have no idea not only how to live a good life they have no idea what a good life is. Their are niche places in the workforce that are underpopulated because most people think they are bad.
My main problem with NEETs is that they despise work but they need other people to work for them. It's extremely self entitled. You can make a case for children born into truly rich families that don't mind them not working but I'm talking about 99.99% of NEETs. They really believe they are so important other people have to suffer so they don't have to work. They tacitly approve of the system they talk about hating. I've known people who don't work, don't study ect but the ones I admire are the ones who have found a way to do that without being bludgeons on either their family or on society. You say you don't have any obligations? What about your family? What about the state that provides for your lifestyle?
>>7552444 I meant de facto obligations, as in things I have to actually do, not 'feeling obliged'.
I never really cared much for justifying myself in this regard, but in a society where work is in decline and where we are moving steadfastly towards more and more automatisation, I think it's only sensible for the state to provide some form of basic income to its citizens. It's to everyone's benefit. In my country there is about a single job opening for every five unemployed people, so making sure those other four guys get to eat is beneficial to everyone, since they would have find ways to eat that aren't work otherwise.
As you said, you have to be practical, and to be practical is to accept that a sizeable and growing part of the population will be NEET. In a civilisation as efficient as ours the primitive notion that everyone has to carry their weight is pretty absurd. There's simply not enough to do.
But instead of rejoicing in this and realising that the less people have to work the more we can get back to what the slave owning Greeks (who despised work but let others work for them) did and contemplate the good life, we come up with the idea that we need to create more jobs so that people can remain busy doing unnecessary bullshit.
The less people work the better, as far as I'm concerned, and I hope that one day nobody will have to work. I'm merely leading by example.
>>7552260 >This post is so very much the cultural logic of late capitalism. Except it's not, the only capitalist thing about his post was that it was about capital and work, you could apply it to anything if you want.
>>7552530 >There's simply not enough to do. You could help advance automation, you talk about automation eventually leading to nobody having to work, yet you in no way are helping go reach that point, if anything you are hindrance.
>>7552260 It’s control. All these things arise from one difficulty: control. For the first time it was inside, do you see. The control is put inside. No more need to suffer passively under ‘outside forces’—to veer into any wind. As if…A market needed no longer be run by the Invisible Hand, but now could create itself—its own logic, momentum, style, from inside.
>>7547358 >muh bootstraps People don't magically self-create jobs by working hard. Jobs come from investment, which comes from profitability. There is structurally a limited amount of non-shit jobs. >"van life", backpacking, seasonal farming, join a commune Where the fuck has your mind gone at this point?
>>7552673 He's preaching the salvation of economic elitism to NEETs for God's sake. The religion of "opportunity". Did he ever stop to question why he had to work so hard to get where he is? It isn't because God holds infinite rewards for those who put in the effort. It's because his position is exclusive and most NEETs would drown before the boat was even in sight.
>>7553542 I know people who have done all of those things. I know lots of people who either don't work or work ridiculously small hours and do so in a way where others aren't forced to support them. I know circus people, traveling bands that busk for money, people who live the van life, people who save a little money then stretch it for years living in tents in the country. I know people who only work during the on season on a farm and then live in a town where the rent is low so they don't have to work the rest of the year just as I know people who live in communes who do comically little work to create the means to provide for themselves. I know people who grow all of their own food so they only have to work one day a week. Hell I've even meet a lifeguard who lived in a van by the beach, and since his accommodation was nothing he only worked one day a week. There is an entire industry of people who earn a living by working for a few months a year and then canoe, rock-climb, hike and camp all over the world, and their work is almost always related to those things. They aren't unrealistic ways of living you just have to be able to think of them.
Building your own small home is an option. Small homes can be built for as little as 20,000$ USD. By a small track of land in the middle of nowhere. Use solar power (which is finally a viable option, have a garden and tend to a couple of animals. You could literally bust your ass for a few years and do this. On minimum wage where I'm from, if you are frugal you can save at least 5K a year. If you worked for 6-10 years at minimum wage (depending on land price) you could retire to a Waldenesque life. I've also known people who have done this. I'm going to work another ten years so I can own one home in a major city, then I can retire to my small country home and live off of the rent of my main property.
>>7553609 It's not what I have been on about at all, especially considering I have been at pains to point out there are ways to avoid any sort of real work. I never said there is a magical amount of jobs out there, only that their are many ways to forge a way of life that are amiable to a good life. As I keep saying it's not like work hard and you can run a company like Microsoft. It's be smart, know yourself, and find a way to live the good life. The good life doesn't require much in terms of physical goods.
Those things aside in my country their are literally too many jobs. Tens of thousands of people have come into this country to fill the jobs that need to be done. There is literally zero reason for anyone to be a NEET asides from medical reasons.
>>7553609 >He's preaching the salvation of economic elitism to NEETs for God's sake. No, in essence he's just saying that sometimes you have to do things you don't like, even if for a short amount of time, in life, you paranoid fuck. You could apply it to anything >huh I want to read Stirner >oh fuck but then I have to slog through Hegel, oh well I'll do it anyways Not everything is an attack on you
>>7554072 If all you're saying is there are ways for a "fulfilling" life of "excellence" outside both wage-slavery and NEETdom, then I have no beef. You're right to deny NEETs their pretensions, if they're anything more than meme images. Though I don't think we can condemn NEETs for depending on their (usually middle-class) parents or the state, rather than some fringe lifestyle like busking or communes, which in all seriousness aren't promising prospects for the socially crippled types NEETs tend to be. And I don't see anything urgently virtuous about living in a small house rather than your parents' house.
But it's obvious why anyone outside the elite would want to minimize their participation in wage-slavery and capitalism in the first place, isn't it? I suppose your main problem with NEETs is their "unethical" dependency. My main problem is that NEETs are symptoms of an unethical system which indeed depends, for its life, on mass dependency, of a very exploitative kind. It might all sound like petty victimizing and blaming to you. But my notion of freedom is the old kind, of direct individual or communal control (if not legal ownership) over the major means of subsistence/production. I have no interest in trying to half-replicate this by buying land or living on an isolated commune, which amounts to nothing but ignoring and running away from the systemic problem. With any significant degree of mass control over the means of production gone, what we've been sold now is the wage-slave delusion of boundless "opportunity" and "self-improvement", of competing rather than cooperating, of "inner" life oblivious to material life. It's here where the other poster accused you of embodying the "logic of late capitalism", though that's not quite right.
>>7557170 >old kind, of direct individual or communal control (if not legal ownership) over the major means of subsistence/production. Never existed, the upper class has always owned the means to production, even centuries ago they owned the land farmers tilled, now the means of production are just different, but the same thing applies.
>>7557526 That's why I emphasized control, not ownership. Medieval lords had no general incentive or ability to kick your average stagnant, self-sufficient farmer off his lands, or radically interfere in semi-communal agriculture (open fields, etc.). Not until capitalism and large-scale commercial agriculture/cash-crop production gained speed. A major attraction to colonial America for Europeans was the promise of owning farmland, self-/communal sufficiency being the requirement for freedom in their minds, even if in reality the best land was quickly monopolized by elites.
These old lords owned the land by force, and thereby extracted rents/services, but they certainly didn't control it utterly in the way capitalists do, and thus couldn't fully synchronize their social inferiors to a system of exploitation. The wage-slave's link to the human manipulation of nature is a step below the peasant's, mediated by the whims of his boss and the volatile commercial system of which he's a part. The modern ruling class both owns and controls, the exploitative relationship absolute.
The ideal is what's important. The old notion of freedom of course has to be reconciled and fully realized with the realities of modern industry, and become scientifically progressive beyond what capitalism can achieve. The only way to regain control over the means of production en masse is by finally taking not just control but also true ownership and rational directive.
>>7552530 Your a lazy pathetic sack of shit who tries to act superior to people with functioning lives, while you are just deeply afraid of failure and coming into realization that you are not special.
>>7554072 All of those people are literally one mishap away from starving to death.
Ffs people didn't start living thr worker bee life entitely out of conformity. It's only fairly recently that people live that life for any other reason that to make sure they and their families will never starve.
>>7557671 If it means nothing to you maybe you should leave the board? It makes absolute sense as a counter-argument to what you wrote, your incapability to articulate an actual response is embarrassing and thenc alling it a word salad that means fucking nothing, makes it even worse.
>>7558013 In the end it's the same shit all of you reds espouse to make yourselves and your faux struggle important. Face it, your entire ideal is built on jeously and envy, but you know if you throw enough words at people, you hide it.
>>7557678 I'm always fascinated by the anger wageslaves display towards neets. Is it simply jealousy, or is it something more? The idea of someone getting this angry over a person choosing a different lifestyle choice is something I can't wrap my head around, but then again anger in general is a completely alien emotion to me.
AFAIK "The Broom of the System" was his thesis for undergrad. He started teaching afterward and wrote IJ while a professor at Emerson. He also found time to write for various publications (nearly all his famous essays were for magazines).
I don't know where those jobs fit in on his timeline, but he was basically a literary type guy from his late 20s onward. Writing and teaching more or less.
Yo what it do bae? I'm just poppin' it with mah' G's readin classical lit' contemplating on the trough of disillusionment. This boy John Green be pissin' me off tho, It he don't stop his shit Imma put a cap in his ass.
>>7557632 >Medieval lords had no general incentive or ability to kick your average stagnant, self-sufficient farmer off his lands As long as the farmer gave the lord everything but the bare minimum that he needed to survive, nothing's changed.
>>7560272 That's mostly a myth. Standards of living were generally determined foremost by the limits of agricultural methods, not the lord-peasant relationship. In contrast, today, our living standards are far below what they could be (for the masses) in technical/material terms and in terms of total hours of work required. Also, the vast majority of a peasant's work was self-directed (broadly under agreed communal restraints), the flow of heavy labor was seasonal and much more "loose". A modern wage-laborer's work must be mechanically synchronized to capitalist accumulation and thus much more disciplined and subjugated, the pace of exploitation scientifically calculated. This caused a lot of frustration for people in the industrializing 19th century who were shifting from agricultural work to urban factory labor. Theoretically, the 18th-19th century's massive gains in agricultural productivity, rather than force people off land into cities and multiply populations, could've been used to lessen labor hours while preserving consumption, if some sort of European-wide peasant communal control over land existed.
This is all why peasants were disentangled from medieval rights to land-usage and instead shifted toward flexible wage-labor -- that's what capitalism is, an all-encompassing shift in the utilization of property from localized production for immediate use to globalized production for exchange.
>>7559737 It's because many NEETs have this completely undeserved holier than though attitude. They aren't angry because they chose a different lifestyle, they are annoyed because that lifestyle is at the expense of the working class. As small as it may be NEETs make the society they live in worse for working class people.
>>7561392 Congratulations, you are retarded. Capitalists ruin the life of the working class, it is obvious and well documented at this point. Not only by Marx but literally the entire academic world of thinking people.
NEETs do nothing except possibly make life harder for the worker who supports them, in some cases.
>>7560998 I should also specify, I'm not a luddite/primitivist and don't seek to romanticize pre-industrial life, or deny the enormous gains in living standards produced by capitalism. I am saying something was lost, and that is the degree of mass control over the means of production, which produced a notion of freedom which had to be destroyed as capitalism expanded. We used to produce for our own direct consumption. Now we produce for a boss's profit and only get our necessities in a roundabout, chaotic way. The ideal is restoring production for-use and the old pre-capitalist notion of freedom I mentioned, but reconciling it to the nature of modern industry, to be technologically feasible/progressive. This would unavoidably mean a persistence in some of wage-labor's oppressiveness, but not at current levels. Production could be specifically organized around providing a more agreeable balance between material comfort on the one hand and desired hours, pace of work/workers' rights, and technical development/innovation on the other. There's a lot of room for improvement there today. Also, to get at the heart of Marxist mumbo-jumbo, capitalism's technological progressiveness is relatively slowing, and theoretically only a planned economy can transcend those limitations to make a fully-automated robot utopia (the NEET dream) happen in the future. But the transhistorical tenacity of civilization's ruling class is a bad indication that this might just end up being an oligarchy-controlled planned economy which fucks over the majority.
>JW Did you write much through all those sleepless nights? >EMC Yes, but not so much. You know, I've written very little, I never assumed it as a profession. I'm not a writer. I write these little books, that's nothing at all, it's not an oeuvre. I haven't done anything in my life. I only practiced a trade for a year, I was a high-school teacher in Rumania. But since then, I've never practiced a trade. I've lived just like that, like a sort of student and such. And that I consider the greatest suc- cess of my life. My life hasn't been a failure because I succeeded in doing nothing. >JW And that's difficult. >EMC It's extremely difficult, but I consider that an immense success. I'm proud of it. I always found one scheme or another, I had grants, things like that.
>>7562306 >>7562327 stay mad wage slaves. I strongly suggest trying some philosophy ( like >>7562333 ) some day so that you can conceive of existence beyond petty buying and selling--what you consider "being useful [to someone who doesn't work]"
The thing that bothers me with most NEETs like >>7562799 is that they opt not to acknowledge the song and dance they have to do in order to be NEET. This obligation only comes out later or at specific moments, such as OP's post where his "mom keeps badgering [him]".
People on welfare also have to do their song and dance to the state, and I know for a fact the process is humiliating.
Some people hardly do anything at all in their jobs and they make crazy money—money with which they can do any number of things, such as travel; buy tickets to museums, concerts, and sporting events; and buy anything they want. In short, money allows one to sample of and see the world. The work they have to do to get that money is often not even comparable and (emphatic here) not a bad trade off.
To compare, NEETs have either their parents or an employee of the state bear down on them and interrogate them about small sums they do get, what they do with their time, and how they intend to get on their own feet. You cannot tell me NEETdom is freedom, because there is the unspoken benefactor who applies quite a lot of pressure to you NEETs, whether you like to disclose it or not.
Is it better to get large sums of money for some work or meagre sums (hand-outs, really) to have someone bear down on you and pester you about how you live your life. It seems very evident to me that the former is preferable.
>>7562832 The state breathing down your throat about benefits isn't exactly true though, in all cases anyway.
When i was on the dole, it was just going to the job centre once every two weeks for 10 minutes. It's not exactly comparable to the everyday responsibilities of a job. There's also the fact that you can get signed off indefinitely. I know people personally who have done so. They have benefits guaranteed for life with no strings attached. Admittedly this usually only applies if you have some medical condition of some kind making you unfit to work, but you're making sweeping generalizations similar to them. It all comes down to individual circumstance such as where you live ect.
>>7562882 I can see your points, but 10 minutes every two weeks to sing and dance for a tiny sum is still not a good deal in comparison to a 40-hour tradeoff for a sum that permits you to do whatever you want. I suppose it comes down to the valuation people give to different work-to-pay.
Personally, I consider the song and dance for 10 minutes to be work, and humiliating work at that. That's my general point: NEETs who claim freedom aren't really free; in fact, they're in the position of a beggar in a sophisticated begging scheme. That song and dance, even if it's for 10 minutes, is work.
Those signed off on indefinitely aren't really the kind of people who go on 4chan and brag about how they're not "wageslave cucks", I think we can agree.
Tomorrow I will go to my job where I can sit at a desk and play tetris for five hours until they hand me a million dollars and I can go on my two month vacation, thanks for clearing things up for me anon!
>>7562913 But it's not just working 40 hour weeks. There's also the work you have to put in to build a career the first place to actually be earning more money.
I live in a small town with little job opportunities that mostly comes down to minimum wage. When it comes down to that situation, is it really worth working 40 hours a week in a dead-end job for marginally more than you get on benefits? This is really what it comes down to with the NEETs on here who deride 'wagecuckery'. When you have those two options it's easy to see why being a NEET on benefits is really appealing.
I work minimum wage now and the amount of money and lifestyle i lead is indistinguishable from the way it was when i was on the dole.
>>7555580 There's no need for you to make an incentive, all you're doing is being a burden. The engineers and scientists of the working on this stuff are already passionate for what they do, they don't need some lazy NEET dragging them down.
>>7562832 >song and dance it's called thinking, you ought to try it.
>>7562940 I won the highest academic award my school offers. I just apply for random things that I'm way "overqualified" for, as if that term was meaningful.
>>7563295 I live my life artistically and make the most of my time. I really don't care whether plebs like you think it is "useful" or not. The hilarious irony is that capitalism has taught you to hate the nonworker who resists capitalism rather than the nonworker who gets rich off your labor.
>>7563383 >capitalism has taught you to hate the nonworker who resists capitalism rather than the nonworker who gets rich off your labor.
You've got it all wrong. The fact that you think this is an issue of capitalism leads me to believe you don't really understand the issues nor arguments, here. Even under a system of communism or socialism, it would be fundamentally unfair for a capable worker to opt out to sit on his ass and collect a sum—no matter how meagre. In fact, a communistic economy would put far more pressure on you to work if you are able than a capitalistic one. You'd be considered far more "useless" under just about any other economic system.
>>7563332 >America >Worst healthcare in the west >Worst workers rights in the west >Worst welfare in the west >Biggest disparity of wealth in the west >Uses godawful first past the post voting system >Lobbying is legalised corruption >Gun violence the worst in the west >Trump running for president
It's ridiculous how normalfags play up NEETs being a problem. You can hate on them for being lazy, entitled, parasitic, delusional, whatever but they're largely a non-issue, the usual stuff capitalized on like who gets food stamps and what they do with it. Unpleasant but trivial.
>>7565528 I don't think many people have called it a problem in the sense it's negative effects on society are mostly negligible. They are annoyed about the smug attitude of NEETs coupled with the lifestyle being a lecherous one.
>>7565539 >the smug attitude of NEETs coupled with the lifestyle being a lecherous one. Many of the rich are like that. The everyday NEET is an easy target though, while attacking those rich would counteract the notion of people earning or being deserving of their wealth and the way they live.
>>7565820 If you have a basic understanding of Hegel, Marx, Nietzsche, Heidegger then give Introduction to the Reading of Hegel a shot. Pretty much every chapter is essential and combined they illustrate Kojeve's position. I've heard the most important chapter isn't even in the English version, but I can't speak to why that is.
I would also suggest the Strauss-Kojeve correspondence in "On Tyranny" by Leo Strauss, which braces Kojeve's "the concept is time" epistemology against the "eternal truth" hypothesis of traditional philosophy, elucidating the political consequences of each.
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