>>5913018 You don't understand because you're an illiterate idiot. Poseidon rekt so many Troys, we don't even know which is which. The rest of what you're saying is equally ignorant for a six year old so, no.
>>5913030 I'm talking about the various falls of Troy, the actual city, which was destroyed by earthquakes (Poseidon), possibly horses (Poseidon), sea (Poseidon)... You know, for the many times Tojans built Troy in many places, you think they would have learnt to stop giving Poseidon a forwarding address. I don't know how you think arguing that since the myths all feature Poseidon, Poseidon would not like them, either, but not knowing apparently that Trojans existed outside myth seems like a bigger inaccuracy so addressing that first seems like a good plan.
>>5913050 Did you miss the part where I'm talking about the actual fall of the city, not the mythic falls of the city? That Poseidon is sad after the sea or horses or earthquakes or other vestiges of his power in the myth is really irrelevant to finding the place on a map.
>>5913073 They didn't, humans did, or rather forced it to. Theodosius. Gods might have intervened, the Roman Empire was trashed within a couple of decades, but I don't know how many people actively prayed for the gods to preserve Helelnismos, and the gods aren't going to be arsed otherwise. When they felt like being honored again, it was in art during the Renaissance, and they revived classical ideals again during the Enlightenment.
>>5913093 The Egyptian Hermes, whom they call Trismegistus, had a different opinion concerning those demons. Apuleius, indeed, denies that they are gods; but when he says that they hold a middle place between the gods and men, so that they seem to be necessary for men as mediators between them and the gods, he does not distinguish between the worship due to them and the religious homage due to the supernal gods. This Egyptian, however, says that there are some gods made by the supreme God, and some made by men. Any one who hears this, as I have stated it, no doubt supposes that it has reference to images, because they are the works of the hands of men; but he asserts that visible and tangible images are, as it were, only the bodies of the gods, and that there dwell in them certain spirits, which have been invited to come into them, and which have power to inflict harm, or to fulfil the desires of those by whom divine honors and services are rendered to them. To unite, therefore, by a certain art, those invisible spirits to visible and material things, so as to make, as it were, animated bodies, dedicated and given up to those spirits who inhabit them—this, he says, is to make gods, adding that men have received this great and wonderful power.
>>5913101 I will give the words of this Egyptian as they have been translated into our tongue: "And, since we have undertaken to discourse concerning the relationship and fellowship between men and the gods, know, O Æsculapius, the power and strength of man. As the Lord and Father, or that which is highest, even God, is the maker of the celestial gods, so man is the maker of the gods who are in the temples, content to dwell near to men." And a little after he says, "Thus humanity, always mindful of its nature and origin, perseveres in the imitation of divinity; and as the Lord and Father made eternal gods, that they should be like Himself, so humanity fashioned its own gods according to the likeness of its own countenance." When this Æsculapius, to whom especially he was speaking, had answered him, and had said, "Do you mean the statues, O Trismegistus?"— "Yes, the statues," replied he, "however unbelieving you are, O Æsculapius—the statues, animated and full of sensation and spirit, and who do such great and wonderful things—the statues prescient of future things, and foretelling them by lot, by prophet, by dreams, and many other things, who bring diseases on men and cure them again, giving them joy or sorrow according to their merits. Do you not know, O Æsculapius, that Egypt is an image of heaven, or, more truly, a translation and descent of all things which are ordered and transacted there, that it is, in truth, if we may say so, to be the temple of the whole world? And yet, as it becomes the prudent man to know all things beforehand, you ought not to be ignorant of this, that there is a time coming when it shall appear that the Egyptians have all in vain, with pious mind, and with most scrupulous diligence, waited on the divinity, and when all their holy worship shall come to nought, and be found to be in vain."
>>5913103 ermes then follows out at great length the statements of this passage, in which he seems to predict the present time, in which the Christian religion is overthrowing all lying figments with a vehemence and liberty proportioned to its superior truth and holiness, in order that the grace of the true Saviour may deliver men from those gods which man has made, and subject them to that God by whom man was made. But when Hermes predicts these things, he speaks as one who is a friend to these same mockeries of demons, and does not clearly express the name of Christ. On the contrary, he deplores, as if it had already taken place, the future abolition of those things by the observance of which there was maintained in Egypt a resemblance of heaven,— he bears witness to Christianity by a kind of mournful prophecy [...]
For these vain, deceitful, pernicious, sacrilegious things did the Egyptian Hermes sorrow, because he knew that the time was coming when they should be removed. But his sorrow was as impudently expressed as his knowledge was imprudently obtained; for it was not the Holy Spirit who revealed these things to him, as He had done to the holy prophets, who, foreseeing these things, said with exultation, "If a man shall make gods, lo, they are no gods;" [...] But the holy Isaiah prophesies expressly concerning Egypt in reference to this matter, saying, "And the idols of Egypt shall be moved at His presence, and their heart shall be overcome in them," Isaiah 19:1 [...] But to this Egyptian those spirits indicated the time of their own destruction, who also, when the Lord was present in the flesh, said with trembling, "Have You come hither to destroy us before the time?" Matthew 8:29 meaning by destruction before the time, either that very destruction which they expected to come, but which they did not think would come so suddenly as it appeared to have done, or only that destruction which consisted in their being brought into contempt by being made known. And, indeed, this was a destruction before the time, that is, before the time of judgment, when they are to be punished with eternal damnation, together with all men who are implicated in their wickedness, as the true religion declares, which neither errs nor leads into error; for it is not like him who, blown here and there by every wind of doctrine, and mixing true things with things which are false, bewails as about to perish a religion, which he afterwards confesses to be error.
>>5913109 After a long interval, Hermes again comes back to the subject of the gods which men have made, saying as follows: "But enough on this subject. Let us return to man and to reason, that divine gift on account of which man has been called a rational animal. For the things which have been said concerning man, wonderful though they are, are less wonderful than those which have been said concerning reason. For man to discover the divine nature, and to make it, surpasses the wonder of all other wonderful things. Because, therefore, our forefathers erred very far with respect to the knowledge of the gods, through incredulity and through want of attention to their worship and service, they invented this art of making gods; and this art once invented, they associated with it a suitable virtue borrowed from universal nature, and being incapable of making souls, they evoked those of demons or of angels, and united them with these holy images and divine mysteries, in order that through these souls the images might have power to do good or harm to men." I know not whether the demons themselves could have been made, even by adjuration, to confess as he has confessed in these words: "Because our forefathers erred very far with respect to the knowledge of the gods, through incredulity and through want of attention to their worship and service, they invented the art of making gods." Does he say that it was a moderate degree of error which resulted in their discovery of the art of making gods, or was he content to say "they erred?" No; he must needs add "very far," and say, " They erred very far." It was this great error and incredulity, then, of their forefathers who did not attend to the worship and service of the gods, which was the origin of the art of making gods. And yet this wise man grieves over the ruin of this art at some future time, as if it were a divine religion. Is he not verily compelled by divine influence, on the one hand, to reveal the past error of his forefathers, and by a diabolical influence, on the other hand, to bewail the future punishment of demons? For if their forefathers, by erring very far with respect to the knowledge of the gods, through incredulity and aversion of mind from their worship and service, invented the art of making gods, what wonder is it that all that is done by this detestable art, which is opposed to the divine religion, should be taken away by that religion, when truth corrects error, faith refutes incredulity, and conversion rectifies aversion?
>>5913111 Wherefore he who sorrowed because a time was coming when the worship of idols should be abolished, and the domination of the demons over those who worshipped them, wished, under the influence of a demon, that that captivity should always continue, at the cessation of which that psalm celebrates the building of the house of the Lord in all the earth. Hermes foretold these things with grief, the prophet with joyfulness; and because the Spirit is victorious who sang these things through the ancient prophets, even Hermes himself was compelled in a wonderful manner to confess, that those very things which he wished not to be removed, and at the prospect of whose removal he was sorrowful, had been instituted, not by prudent, faithful, and religious, but by erring and unbelieving men, averse to the worship and service of the gods. And although he calls them gods, nevertheless, when he says that they were made by such men as we certainly ought not to be, he shows, whether he will or not, that they are not to be worshipped by those who do not resemble these image-makers, that is, by prudent, faithful, and religious men, at the same time also making it manifest that the very men who made them involved themselves in the worship of those as gods who were not go [...] But, nevertheless, he did not agree with that opinion of the Platonic Apuleius, of which we have already shown the incongruity and absurdity, namely, that they were interpreters and intercessors between the gods whom God made, and men whom the same God made, bringing to God the prayers of men, and from God the gifts given in answer to these prayers. For it is exceedingly stupid to believe that gods whom men have made have more influence with gods whom God has made than men themselves have, whom the very same God has made. And consider, too, that it is a demon which, bound by a man to an image by means of an impious art, has been made a god, but a god to such a man only, not to every man. What kind of god, therefore, is that which no man would make but one erring, incredulous, and averse to the true God?
People are under the error today that the Greeks are the founders of Western civilization. In fact, the Babylonians, Egyptians, and Persians were all far ahead of the Greeks. The Greeks Pythagoras and Plato got most of their knowledge from Egypt.
>But the Chaldaeans and the Medes and Persians, having a somewhat wider knowledge, were instructed by the building of the Tower, and the deluge, and by what happened in the case of Hezekiah and Jonah, and by the Captivity, and by Daniel and the Three Children, and also partly by the writings themselves. In like manner also the Egyptians were instructed by the affairs of Joseph and of Moses, and by the people of Israel, and these nations were thus better prepared for a ready acceptance of Christianity. Even the Greeks, however, did believe later on through the Apostles, when they saw the wonders which they wrought. And when still later again signs ceased, and time rolled on, you will find Greeks who have believed, and have been baptized, lapsing, nevertheless, many of them into unbelief, and ignoring the Old and the New Testament, that is, divine scripture, as persons who have not long had the root of religion and the foundation of faith deeply implanted. Wherefore in their writings they have not mentioned, as the early Chaldaeans and Egyptians have done, anything about the deluge and the building of the Tower, and the departure of the children of Israel from Egypt, and about the first historian, Moses. But though they regard themselves as very superior persons and the wisest and foremost of men, they are nevertheless from their swelling vanity ignorant of many things. Wherefore one of the Egyptians, whose name was Solomon, said to Plato: The Greeks are always children, and no Greek is ever old, nor is there any learning among you that is of hoar antiquity.
>>5913137 The age between Augustine and myself is greater than the age between Hermes and Augustine. Does that mean that I am not allowed to quote Augustine as you insist that Augustine is not allowed to quote Hermes?
>>5913143 You can quote Augustine, he's a particular person with a text generally agreed upon to be his and his alone, but HT is a semi-legendary figure, and I don't think Augustine is even quoting from his standard corpus here, but rather some work supposedly attributed to him.
>>5913149 I'm not sure how you figure that. Are you suggesting that if we don't take every uncorroborated and rather fanciful-seeming ancient testimony as fact, then we can take nothing as fact? I certainly don't take much of Herodotus as fact, neither did Herodotus.
>>5913161 yes, the source is not 100% reliable nothing seems to be 100% reliable in regards to Hermes
>This translation of the Asclepius is based upon a manuscript found in the works of the N. African Platonist, Apuleius of Madaura (ca.125-180 AD), who is best known for his epic novel, the Metamorphosis. Modern scholarship has followed the judgment of St Augustine who does not mention Apuleius as the author or translator in City of God (8.23). Due to the Platonist's intimate involvement in Augustine's discussion on the Asclepius in the City of God, it is assumed that Augustine definitely would have named the author if he knew who it was for certain. Thus Augustine's silence--paired with modern philological comparitive analysis of the text affirming it not to be the work of Apuleius--seems to have closed the case for Apuleius' hand in the direct transmission or authorship of the great Hermetic work: it is dated between 2nd and 3rd centuries AD. Interestingly, though, is the amendment the scribe made to the corpus of Apuleius; he grafted the Asclepius to the body of Apuleius' works for a specific reason; and this points to the continuity of ideas and the stylistic affinities which link the two currents together--the Hermetic and Apuleiuan. [...]
>>5915809 It's most likely to be Homer's Troy of the Troys we have. However, that's not all the mythical/historical Troys, or thoroughly validated enough to say it's definite. Tracing the ones that lasted longer hasn't exactly been easy, either, so saying VII is an established mythical Troy at all is a bit out there compared to some of semi established nonmythic ones, and that it's the singular mythic Troy when many could have meant the myth to refer to the Illium that lasted longer or less is even more out there.
So, yes, probably Homer's Troy for the sake of having one, but no, probably not any of the Troys mythic or factual we have a better record and evidence for.
>>5915816 I never understood the horses. Earthquakes and sea serpents and other catastrophes I can understand being grouped under one god, but why add on horses? Wtf do horses have to do with anything?
>>5915900 >I never understood the horses. Earthquakes and sea serpents and other catastrophes I can understand being grouped under one god, but why add on horses? Wtf do horses have to do with anything? You seem to think the gods function according to how humans separate reality, but all separation of reality is arbitrary, the gods do not model theirs upon ours. Rather ours is sometimes modeled upon theirs.
>>5915900 Robbing Graves says that Poseidon retained his patronage of horses, but also became god of seafarers when his people took to the sea (168, white goddess). The connexion between horseys and ships is quite an easy one. He also talks about how the ash is sacred to him, but also as a death dealer -- cruel ash, spears etc -- and a charm against drowning, further 'In ancient wales and ireland all oars and coracle slats were made of ash, as were the rods used for urging on horses, except where the deadly ewe was preferred'. If you're interested in this sort of thing the white goddess is a great read, even if there's a lot of bullshit and misinformation in it.
Poseidon: The Old Man and the Sea Hera: Infinite Jest (Family) Demeter: Grapes of Wrath, Light in August, Anna Karenina (fertility, agriculture) Apollo: Death in Venice, The Plague Hermes: Blood Meridian, especially the judge (Commerce, Thievery, Games)
>>5912971 how are the Asatru Gods less patrician then the 12 Divine? Thats what most of our forefathers believed in. Is it because the Greeks kick started western civilization while the Germanics never put out much great culture under their gods?
>>5916213 Hera's would be some work where a good wife is the main character. Apollo's would probably be Euclid's Elements. Hermes would be Sun and Steel, he is the god of athletics too. >>5916247 Aphrodite would be Tropic of Cancer. Athena's would be On War.
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