Sup. So, I figured out a thing about words and I want to give

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Let's do it

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>>5253469
To start, some definitions:

Narramame - A distinct unit of narratological measurement. Functional concept: Changes in world state.

Working glossary - the edition of the narrameme glossary being utilized
(the very nature of the ongoing identification of narramemes requires frequent editions, keep track of whichever one is in use or risk data contamination)

Sequential lines - Charted documents usually excel files, jpgs or handwritten, that show through either type of glossary term identifier (there's a method for display in both colour and numerics.)

Style - Patterns of narramemes that an author defaults to when presented with creative choice.

Creative choice (I don't mean to assume you don't know how art works, but I don't know who is in the class) - Points in creation of a work where the creator recognizes differing solutions to given creative problems.

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>>5253512
There are two types of people in the world when examining a document in this manner: speakers and performers.

Speakers are humans that have not begun to see their work as something that is received by an audience. They're called this for their method of writing, essentially they try to create a document that, to them, most immediately reflects their own inner voice. In a speaker, tracking narramemes allows us to almost read the mind as it's consciously understood by the person.

Performers are far more interesting since a performer is a person who self edits due to the knowledge that communication dictates that there's someone on the receiving end that will interpret your words due to their own life biases.

Narramame usage varies between the two types and before working it helps to know which you're dealing with to cut back on work later.

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>>5253547
So, now that we have that to work from we can begin to talk.

When you start writing a story, you have a beginning and an ending. Then you put as much inbetween those as possible. So how do you do a beginning? Do you start with "Once upon a time"? Or "A long long time ago"? Is it "in a land far to the east" or "in a galaxy far far away?" How do you decide which sentence should go first? If both types of locational statements (geographic/temporal) could be first and still convey the point, what decides which goes there?

Now, before I go further, we have to note that I'm not talking about tropes here. Tropes are specific ploys with character or plot that a writer uses in the creation of canon. Instead, what we're focusing on is how the author conveys the ideas in words to a reader.

In the next bit, I will include one glossary of terms for individual narramemes. It's hardly complete but I doubt such a glossary could ever be complete to the satisfaction of everyone, so instead we have these working glossaries. Don't make fun of them, I'll cry.

>>5253469
You should start utilizing some of the writing styles you've learned with this method because I can't make it all the way through your posts.

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>>5253572
I'm better writing prose. I can't teach for shit. I'm hoping the shitty mspaint pictures are going to help.

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>>5253577
Moving on. Attached is a small working glossary (I realize there's no full definitions, I'll post those in a minute, I've got to find that one's dictionary) from about four months ago. Individual statement types are grouped into families. As is made evident on the color wheel, the families are hierarchical with the more generic functions falling into the darker shades and the lighter ones marking more specific functions.

Once you have a glossary, begin parsing individual texts for the established narramemes and keep them in order. I just type them into an excel sheet.

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>>5253598
This is some work I did on Cloud Atlas, here you can see the simple nature of plotting the narramemes. (Cloud Atlas is a shitty book but it serves the purpose here since it illustrates how this method pierces shitty accents and instead demonstrates patterns in the direct thoughts being conveyed.)

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>>5253607
This is some of that in colour. I quickly found audiences don't really respond to long strings of numbers on powerpoints. They like pretty things.

Go on...

>>5253607
Huh, I thought I had a vague idea what narrameme meant, but now it turns out it's a bunch of numbers? I am confused.

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>>5253617
The numbers are just assigned symbols to distinguish a particular type of narrameme in shorthand. Same with the colours. It could easily just say "setting-geographic" instead of 12 in the boxes. The idea is that an author arranges these discrete building blocks in such a way as their default response to any given creative choice like "start the story".

I feel dumb.

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>>5253613
In the six intros displayed here we can see all that red at the beginning. "Well duh" you say, "those are narramemes from the settings family, of course they're going to be there."
And, well, that's the point. These are six short stories written sometimes years apart and he starts them all with setting, just like any good ol' westerner should. There are certainly stories that do no immediately establish setting, but this is one of them that does, every single time.

Points of note because I'm a shitty teacher and didn't mention them yet:
- The stripes are narramemes that serve more than one function. The more complex a document, the more stripes will show up as far as I've seen.

- That black bar is the clone chick. She's in an interview. The start was baffling for me to try and decode. She's a whole different ballgame for another time.

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>>5253663
What don't you understand, because soon I'm going to start talking about more conceptual work and I'd love to help you iron out the details of the core mechanics at work here.

>>5253663
spend some time here http://www.ulillillia.us/sitemap.shtml and try to put yourself into his mindset then come back to the thread and you will see that it's all quite succinct

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>>5253672
I think this induces the opposite of Spinning Leaf.

Are you rewriting Artistotle's Poetics? I'm intrigued

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The implications of a system for analyzing narramemes in this fashion are amusing. It would be possible to analyze a document against an existing database to supply probable individual authors. (This is what you do to performers)
Or, even more entertaining, due to the nature of creation exposed by the viability of the system (you seem to learn narrameme patterns culturally, large culture and specific culture) it would be possible to give a background on an unknown author, even though you don't know anything about them. It would just be hard as fuck to do and probs require several trained people and money. (This is what you do to speakers.)

I can't wait for the NSA to profile me utilizing this method on my anonymous posts in critique threads

>>5253598
what is tangent loss?
what is pointed stinger?

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>>5253696
Like, do you mean directly? Because no, this is just something I developed because I backed myself into a corner during an assignment, understood this is how it works and got super pissed when someone else hadn't done the legwork already for me. The original use was tracking narratives in the oral stories of rednecks at a hookah bar I worked at.

>>5253712
Tangent loss is when an oral speaker lets his memory run away with him and loses track of his own fucking story because he's an exmethhead.

Pointed stinger is that "aha!" one liner at the end of a story that conveys a specific meaning or point.

I'm looking for a fucking dictionary right now. I can't find it and I'm having a heart attack about it.

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>>5253696
I'm reading portions of it now, I haven't since highschool. Umm, it looks kinda relevant. But his analysis seems to be closer to a tvtropes type of mentality. He doesn't seem to be enforcing a hard line between authorial intent on the audience and the canon elements of the plot themselves.

Funny side note: The conflating of the two concepts is why freshman english papers hurt so much.

>>5253732
Yea, the latter gets dealt with more in Rhetoric. They're often read together.

This thread needs a fucking sticky.

MODS GET IN HERE.

>>5253732
done analysis on any other books or stories?

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>>5253740
Well, I'd say it'd be helpful to know Rhetoric before learning to do a narrameme analysis. Seems like it would then feel kinda familiar. Enthymemes would have to be an understood concept, whether or not you knew the word. They're required for establishing authorial intent. I didn't, but it would be helpful.

When I showed a couple academics this they all seemed to piss themselves over the method I used to create the colour graphs and half ignored the analysis itself. But I think it's pretty cool to be able to recognize and chart style in a fashion that can be taught to others.

>>5253760
Most definitely, I think you are doing something worthwhile and interesting. Don't let my previous comments dissuade you at all.

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>>5253755
I've got a couple of power points, one is for the redneck oral stories and the other is my presentation slides for cloud atlas. I'll post them asap.

I haven't gotten to do a full book proper, it'd be months of work and no one in the world cares about this shit but me. And before anyone asks: No. I'm deathly afraid to do it on my own work.

Mods, make this sticky. Please.

>>5253760
>When I showed a couple academics this they all seemed to piss themselves over the method I used to create the colour graphs and half ignored the analysis itself.
The establishment is afraid of this kind of thing because they'd like to believe the creative process can't be demystified with mere charts and corresponding numbers. If it could, critics would be out of the job. Either that, or the ones you talked to are just idiots.

Please continue.

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>>5253766
Cloud Atlas: http://prezi.com/vlyzorlui8x5/?utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=copy&rc=ex0share

(I personally request that you don't fuck with the fact you know my name, but shit it's the internet I can't stop you and also give you the stuff so we can talk in full context and I want the conversation.)

Here's the rednecks
http://prezi.com/jc9u6wcki3hl/the-legos-of-northeast-missouri-storytelling/

Would you like the papers that went along with each or do these suffice for our discussions here?

OP, this is really cool. With a large enough corpus of narramemed texts, you could apply some machine learning algorithms to find interesting patterns of style between authors.

>>5253794
The papers would be great, but do continue with any lecture you had planned for the sake of the thread and archival purposes.

Maybe give us the papers at the end. Whatever seems appropriate.

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>>5253797
Yup! I can't code worth shit but I've designed the system already to do this. All of it can be computerized except the translation from in context usage to fundamental narrameme. So all a person would have to do is that translation and a machine could do all the boring math parts, undoubtedly better than a person could anyways.

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>>5253469
>one of my purposes here is to fish for unanswerable questions

why is she so cute, bros?

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>>5253805
Well, I've already explained what narramemes are and how to use them to establish patterns in writing and demonstrated it. Is there anything that doesn't quite make sense or possibly a tangent question that stands out?

I'd be interested to know how obvious the similarities between books that the same author has written under two different names.

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>>5253813
The cloud atlas paper, originally given for grade and yawns in my senior seminar: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AdIso6nLWMThoJKcakpsDKr2VNTQ2bKoXBD3K0lLQIE/edit?usp=sharing

And this one was technically supposed to be for a folklore class. The teacher gave me a B because he's cool even though it's not fucking folklore: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VtAaLJNHzmWyOWckhkT048LZYSva59kV4d7dCOlZyIc/edit?usp=sharing

And yes, every teacher in the world hates my academic writing as well as you. Fuck off.

Oh man, I feel seriously stupid.
Like I don't even know what questions to ask.
So you've decided to take some writing
and
uh
pick out ideas that are similar
and then uh
give each idea a name+number
Ok I guess? But to what end is this?

>>5253833
lol neurotypical pleb, what are you even doing on this board, you poser

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>>5253820
I did a brief version of an analysis on JK Rowlings detective novel and books 1 and 7 of Harry Potter. Not only does maintain voice, she actually maintains it more than I'd expected.

>>5253813
>Is there anything that doesn't quite make sense or possibly a tangent question that stands out?

Yes,
a) Are you involved in your university's digital humanities department?
b) What are they up to in that field? I've been to a few seminars and never got a feel for what their long-term objective was.

>>5253832
OP, I'm a software engineer by trade. I might try to do something with this. If I do, should I try to contact you somehow?

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>>5253833
It's to better chart and identify and discuss authorial intent and the thought patterns those authors use to convey that intent.

Whenever two ideas serve the same function, you group them under the How.

>>5253837
I am not. I mostly smoke hookah and write books about fairies for depressed sixteen year old girls. Paying bills takes up most of my time.

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>>5253846
fuck, I forgot my picture

>>5253839
Sure, what's your poison for digital communication?

>>5253836
Post results?

>>5253843
OHHH.
Oh. I understand. I like this. Could natural language processing be useful to you here? Something like https://github.com/louismullie/treat


Also what do you plan to use this for?

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>>5253852
They're sketch analysis in a notebook. I'd honestly not feel comfortable making a declaration on them until I give it a full one. But for the purpose of discussion, she maintains her physical setting patterns and has that same tendency to redundantly describe people.

>>5253850
email

send me yours and I'll hit you up if I end up doing anything

>>5253864
>software engineer
>yahoo.com

costanza belittles.jpg

>>5253846
Okay then I guess next would be

a) Can you email me some of those stories, and
b) What schools of criticism most influenced your methodology?

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>>5253598
>>5253712
>>5253723
Nigga where are those definitions for the glossary?

Im getting soft over here. So much of what is interesting for me about this rests on those definitions.

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>>5253854
I don't make things because they're useful. I make them because I can't stop.

>>5253864
Are you wanting me to like, post it? Cause I'll post a throwaway one if that's what you want (not like my information isn't easily gleaned by the documents already posted.)

>>5253854
NLP seems like something that could be related. If the poor saps are trying to run the direct language through processing to define meaning without taking into account the lack of precise translation from signified to sign then they're going to be doing it a long, long time.

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>>5253885
Oh, sorry, there's one in the presentation for Cloud Atlas. I've yet to find a different one but I've got a bunch of google doc accounts to go through and this thread is surprisingly active.

I'm just happy it's impossible for me to run out of lain pictures. >thank you based russian anon

>>5253862
That's cool.

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>>5253879
Like, you want to read my 350 page teen novel about fairy highschool and depression? It's not my first book, but it's not like fucking Warbreaker or something.

And I'm not sure how to answer that last question. It's clearly a structural argument and it borrows the term and definition for narrameme from a halfbaked essay by some dudes in North Carolina. But mostly it's just how this stuff rationally works. It just charting how thoughts are conveyed.
I'm still pissed I had to do so much work on something I feel should have been broached before. I just wanted to do my fucking folklore project before the teacher gave me a disappointed stare. He taught me old english, I like the guy.

Might try this out this weekend on some Chekhov stories

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>>5253932
Want some tips or would you rather go in dry?

>>5253935
I'd be grateful

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>>5253911
>Like, you want to read my 350 page teen novel about fairy highschool and depression?
Yeah
>It's clearly a structural argument and it borrows the term and definition for narrameme from a halfbaked essay by some dudes in North Carolina.
I live 30 minutes away from that university.
>I'm still pissed I had to do so much work on something I feel should have been broached before.
No kidding.

Anyway let's all love Lain.

OP this shit is revelatory.

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>>5253893
>>5253911
This is pretty nice with the definitions.

I would have massive fun getting a few people together with some food and books, spending a good full day trying to work out the fullest and most functional glossary.

Good job man

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>>5253938
Remember, my glossaries are faulty. You're going to run into narramemes I haven't classified because they don't appear in the work I've used. Different authors have access to different narramemes based on where they're from in addition to using the same ones differently.
You're going to need to be fluid. If someone's not fitting the given definitions fixing that is easy: Figure out what it does, put it in a family (or make a new one) adjust your charts as need be and move on. After a point though this gets to be mollasses and you'll realize it's better to keep a single working glossary and just mark somehow the ones that need new definitions.

Also, order of operations: Remove the context, isolate the narrameme, apply the context, determine the function, chart.

Being fluid and keeping your shit in order (contaminating your own data is super easy if you don't keep good records) are the two biggest keys.

>>5253941
That NC one? Sorry if I insulted your uncle or something.
And I really want to post a link to the book, but I really don't want to fuck any chance I have of making money. But I love sharing art. But I don't hate money. I am in conflict.

Let's all love lain.

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>>5253946
Not really but I was affiliated the army for a while and when I showed some folks I know in there they also liked it. I think they want to hunt brown people with it.

>>5253948
I would too! But literally no one but me has ever cared about this. Some classmates think it's neat but they don't understand the actual method involved in the slightest. I'm glad there are others.


Seriously, anyone got questions or implications? I can spitball most ideas involved in this. One kid realized this means you can paint a story, or at least write a story that paints a picture. I told him /he/ could do it but /I/ sure wasn't going to. He didn't sound up to the idea when it was him having to do the work.

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>>5253962
I posted my email up here >>5253879, if you're comfortable sharing through that.
>That NC one? Sorry if I insulted your uncle or something.
Nah, my mother taught there though.

>tfw no Phenomeno ever because Nakamura-san is fucking dead.

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>>5253999
>Phenomeno

Despera* oops.

>>5254009
I was gonna say, that's a nitroplus VN

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>>5253999
Sent you a confirmation email, shoot one back and I'll give you that link. I do horror and teen stuff because nightmares and depression.

As for despera it really is a thing that makes the world a little less nice to be in. I liked ghost hound too. Can't see him disappointing me through anything other way other than it not existing.

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>>5254014
I'm drinking a bunch of coffee. I'll be up some time longer. Any other fun things come to mind along the narrameme discussion?

>>5253672
wtf is that OP's website?

>>5254021
This stuff is way over my head, but I want to congratulate you on creating a thread on /lit/ with zero shitposting.
You must really be doing something right.

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>>5254032
No, I think he was just telling someone to think more structured.

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>>5254011
It's a pretty damn good one, though. I'll never forget the dream sequence.

>>5254014
sent :)
>As for despera it really is a thing that makes the world a little less nice to be in.
At least we still have Kino and Boogiepop (which he wasn't even involved in but still).

>>5254032
>He hasn't heard of Ulillillia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9crDjdIqZo

>>5254065
One of Clifford D. Simak's novels has "mutants" that are basically super intelligent people who arise out of bumfuck nowhere. Their genes somehow produce such intelligence after being isolated from mainstream society for so long.
Science fiction is right again.

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>>5254037
What doesn't make sense? I bet I can reduce it or make an analogy that will help if I know where the struggle is.

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>>5254082
Yeah I can't wait for that documentary to come out but it's pretty much vaporware at this point.

Also thanks OP for teaching me a new way to enjoy reading.

>>5254083
What's getting me is identifying narramemes and working with texts/performers.

Are the terms you outlined yours that you made up, or are you working with already established terms? So when you identify a potential narrameme do you name it yourself?

I understand the isolating and removing context part when you're looking for a narrameme or working with one, but how small of pieces do you cut the text up into, so to speak? Say with Cloud Atlas, did you reduce each story into specific sized chunks to work with?

>>5254107
I see the chapter separation with Cloud Atlas, so I guess I should elaborate. How did you identify where one narrameme ends and another begins?

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>>5254099
Np, it's just a shame it's like the middle of the night in the active english speaking portion of the world. I wish the thread' last longer.

>>5254107
The terms are entirely made up and the points don't matter. And yeah, since no one has done work on this stuff I've had to name them as I go along.
Horrifying were the days I realized I was conflating entire families or needlessly dividing them. I've only done serious work on it a couple of times and I've only been able to do this since Novemeber. I wasted a lot of time looking for free definitions that don't exist.

I think someone should make a forum or something in order for everyone interested to follow and help develop this.

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>>5254107
Oh!

Changes in world state.

For example:
John walked to the store (single words are shit narramemes, I would call this a dual usage for geographic setting and subject) and bought some apples and oranges (expository general)

Anytime the words make a full change in the mental reception of the story, you've experienced a change in world state.

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>>5254125
That'd be cool. Go do it.

>>5254135
Thank you, this is a lot clearer now. Looks similar to how deconstruction theory handles sentences, but this is actually deconstructing content. If 'content' is an applicable word.

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>>5254125
Seconded. I'm trying to gain access to a domain I bought last year called textstar.net.

I'll update with progress tomorrow. I know very little about how to program a BBS though, so it might be a learning process.

>tfw there will never be a Yume Nikki anime adaptation directed by Ryutaro Nakamura with a .flow sequel directed by Yuasa or Kenji Nakamura
Why even live?

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>>5254161
A more precise description would be that you're charting the underlying functions of the content on the reader.

Lol, all deconstruction theory looks the same when applied: take A, reduce it to B, catalog B, compare B to all the other Bs for whatever purpose you so desire.
It's going from A to B that usually gets people stuck.

>>5253832
>teacher gave you a B
I don't see why, what you're detailing sounds like living folklore or folklore in action. You might even argue it's the recognition and analysis of folklore before it becomes folklore.

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>>5254185
Shhhhhhh. I expected to fail when I showed up to the presentation. B's are fine.

Think of it this way. The class was like a boat tour where we would sail to an island, hang out and come back and take a test. Except half way through the boat ride I jumped over the side and no one really saw me until I showed up on the island and suddenly I knew everything about dolphins. That's cool, there's very few dolphin experts, but the poor guy wasn't supposed to be grade me on my knowledge dolphins but of the island.

I learned about the island before the final to make up for spending so much time playing with dolphins.

>>5254202
So, I take it you just graduated from this Cloud Atlas paper. Are you going to pursue this outside of academia, or are you going into graduate school?

Did your teacher say anything about your work, other than it wasn't about the island?

>>5254125
>>5254155
>>5254171
I made this shitty free forum for now
http://narrameme.freeforums.org/ucp.php?mode=login
I can't even figure out how to make new categories though.

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>>5254210
The folklore guy liked it, agreed with it, told me to write a book and sell it to the 40 people alive who would give a shit.

But no, just got my English senior sem done early. I've got one more semester in the fall to get rid of the last GenEd/LibArts requirements and somehow learn a language to CLEP out before November.
Fuck me sideways, I'm actually going into the dorms to help keep me focused (seriously, bills are a bitch when living like a normal person and still going to college.) I'm some poor bastard I don't know's roommate.

>>5254219
I'll sign up and check back every once in a while until something happens in case something happens.

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>>5254227
Man, that's twice I've not avatarfagged in this thread. I'm losing my touch.

>>5254221
Hang in there, man. Seems like you're onto something and halfway intelligent. Shit, you're doing better than me at the moment.
Make it 41 people alive who give a shit.

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>>5254219
I created an account but now I must sleep because it's 6:10 and my eyelids are failing me.

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>>5254219
I'm signed up as Lain for obvious reasons. Organize the group however you think would work best but I'd say at least places for speculation, raw data, conclusions and methology. I also give you permission (for what it's worth) to post all my shit from this thread in whatever form works: the papers, presentations and mini-lecture.

>>5254247
Thanks for reading. I wasn't sure anyone would care enough to.

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>>5254253
It really is a shame mods are all probs asleep. I'd loved to have a bigger discussion on the topic. I'll screen shot what I've got and repost sometime tomorrow, see if I can't generate some more thought on the subject.

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I've still got coffee though if anyone's still reading.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/9764416.stm

Something similar to what youre doing is probably the basis for Computer written content.

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>>5254278
They're arguably going the wrong direction with this but they at least seem to be aware of that? They haven't, from what I can read, gone through the mental steps necessary to understand that there's a difference between characters doing things coherently and a story that works memetically to change momentarily change how a person understands the world.

At least they realized it's more than one part. They split it into style and content. But style without understanding function is like wearing a pretty skirt in front of a blind guy. It does nothing for everyone and still manages to waste time in a way people think something's happening.

>>5253598
Motherfucker, nest your fucking definitions.

1. Evaluations
1.1. Personal
1.1.1. Positive
1.1.2. Negative

AND SO ON AND SO ON

>>5254323
You're yelling at me for work I assumed no one would care about that I put together while watching that 70s show at 3am 30 hours before presentation.
And for the record, while that is much more efficient in the longrun, for these 37 terms my damn signs are fine. No one but the professor understood what I was saying anyways.

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>>5254323
Oh and MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE MSPAINT.EXE
I had bigger issues to take care of.

>>5253980
>they want to hurt brown people with it...
Think this method could be used to design elaborate propaganda?

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>>5254362
No, but it can be used to determine a specific author of any document of respectable length when a pool is available. Otherwise it can locate region, as defined by furthest point of reasonable contact.
If what I've been told about middle eastern culture is true, that could sometimes be down to the village.

But yes, this system could be used to evaluate a given piece's potential levels of manipulation. It would be best as a check after the fact rather than a blueprint before creation.

>>5254375
With enough data though couldn't it be used as or at least lead to some sort of blueprint?

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>>5254384
We're like, a dozen ballparks away from me being able to say something with certainty, but I would find it hard to believe for two reasons,
1) this method works across language barrier's as long as you have a literal and figurative translation available, or even better can train someone whose first language you're working in. As this is the case, far too much narrameme effectiveness is in the reader and the author understanding the reader to the point of being able to manipulate data to suit their ends. If they can do that already, the blueprint's hardly useful. If they can't do it, then the blueprint's totally useless.

2) You'd be reading authorial intent, trying to write a story around outlined intent is hard enough when you're not stopping to think about it. You're asking a pitcher to operate under the condition that everyone in the stands as well as all the batters are his thousand ex girlfriends who know he has a tiny penis. He's gonna overthink his job.
All authors worth their salt manipulate narrative to achieve anticipated response. The good ones know it and don't need to be told. Forcing the issue is just going to lead to flawed work.

I could be totally wrong on this though, I reserve the right to change my mind after I wake up (it's 6:15 here)

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>>5254420
Well, I'm going to bed. It's been a wonderful discussion. Best I've had all summer. If this thread is still alive when I wake, I'll drop in and answer questions people have and act like I never left. If it's not, I'll make a new one later in the afternoon.

Thanks for the stimulating discussion.

This is stupid, but

but

what if the authorial intent turns out to be my own authorial intent? Or worse/better, what if the naramemes "knows" my authorial intent better than I could possibly know?

How would this affect me as your average stupid person, who know neither semiotics nor any means to escape this? Should I escape in the first place?

Oh god. Ignore my post if it's too stupid for you to reply.

OP, please clarify something for me. What you refer to as a narrameme here is essentially a block of style or content, judged/classified according to the author intention in using that block of style or content. An example is exposition, such as saying that John wore a red coat: this establishes a narrameme of character in the sense of both the existence of John and his mental/psychological state that has led him to wear a red coat, including possible connotations and symbolic meanings of said red coat. I'm not using the narramemes you listed earlier, by the way, because my network is bad and I can't load images well. Hope this gets the message across anyway.

What you can do with narramemes, you then say, is identify patterns of narrameme structuring in a narrative. For instance, a particular author might open with setting, as you mentioned before. Another might start with character, if that's a narrameme on your list.

What's there to be gained from this, though, apart from academic gratification? You could, in theory, deduce an ideal narrative structure or ideal patterns of narrative structure, rather like chord progressions in music, but I don't see anyone putting in the effort required to analyse enough stories to come to a satisfactory template. Another possibility would be to identify general patterns in literature and use them to group genres more effectively (eg. fairy-tales all use a similar narrameme structure and thus fall into the same family), but there isn't much profit in doing that apart from, as mentioned before, academic gratification.

I'm aware that my understanding of narramemes may be faulty on the side of the general: your examples given above point to it being a word-level analytical tool, while my examples here are based on it being a macro content/idea-level tool. I hope that my questions at the end stand valid all the same. And while I may seem to voice doubt with this post, understand that I consider this revolutionary just like the other anons in the thread. Many of us have probably had the idea of devising a system of narrative structures, but you're really might be the first person in a long while to have taken that idea and applied it with such rigor. I'll be sure to read through your other materials when I'm back on a good network.

>>5253666
>settings family

You're doing exactly what you think you're not doing. This is just trope identification with the substitution of the stupid term "narrameme' (worst portmanteau ever) in the misguided attempt to find patterns within the words by which the tropes are expressed.

You're a self-admitted autist, and that is the only reason you're trying to do this, because you have no understanding of creativity or style.

Go ahead. I admire the effort, but know now that this method of analysis will not help you improve your writing.

I'm definitely interested in reading more about this but don't have any specific questions.

I'm curious to see this applies to more pieces of work. As other posters have pointed out, so far you've mainly dissected the structure of various words and sentences, without applying this on a large scale. I think this is a very interesting idea, largely because of how fundamental and obvious it seems, but I don't think there is much to present until you began analyzing a myriad of books and comparing them.

I'm also curious: what do you see as the goal or end-point of this project? Do you want to effectively be able to predict the readability and success of a novel based on its narrameme structure? Do you want to simply create more effective categorizations? Perhaps it's only rooted in my own lack of clarity, but I'm failing to understand the direction of this concept.

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>>5254486
It's not stupid but is sure isn't making any sense to me. But it sounds like you're describing something that's supposed to be happening.

>>5255185
Actually if you checked at all that narrameme would be something charged in various ways by the narramemes around them. None of them commit whole actions. I don't care what the trope is, I care what it's actually doing there.

And if you did read the whole thing I've said I don't do this of my own work. It's a thing I noticed just doing what I do naturally. I don't expect this to improve my writing. Trial and error combined with an understanding of people and a commitment to recognizing my faults in . the craft are what does that.

This is just fun. Thanks for reading.

>>5255403
I agree. The weakness is in the proof at this point. A couple of sections and some stories. But it's kinda hard and I don't have a massive ton of time on my hands for a while. Since people here have been receptive, I'll probably do some work over the next couple days. I'd be open to suggestions but I'm tempted to just do Rothfuss or Butcher. After a couple runs on traditional stories, something like House of Leaves would be the real test.

The end goal is... to know how to do it? I'm shitty at explaining it. I think it's neat; it's kinda learning something and kinda building something.

This thread can help me with the punctuations? because I've terrible typing/writing skills and I'd like to improve it somehow. so please, there is a way to start improving it in the world of literature?

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>>5254703
I think the pictures help. It's been a task to not be able to individualize the conversation to the person listening. I'm trying to keep it succinct and I lean on the pictures too much. (in my defense we are on an image board)

Aw shit, you're pointing out something I literally don't think I've said before now and only hinted at outside the folklore paper. Thank you. Some narramemes usage or patterns are learned at a family level and then again at a geographic level. The two levels of direct influence for speakers. We've all got accents in our speech patterns, not just our dialects. That's what I learned during the Folklore paper.

>>5255185
Oh! You mistook something I think. Settings here aren't even, like, places in the canon? There's just a unit block of concept that writers use to convey a setting and manipulate it in a way to transfer additional information about it without explicitly saying it. Butcher's a prime example. His setting style is essentially the same every single time the location changes. It's the same term though and I can see how it would get confusing but I'm not smart enough to think of a better term.

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>>5255511
I am utterly useless to your cause.

Hahaha this is Schonberg or Mallarme level of autism here. I'm lurking here.

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>>5255752
And what are your thoughts on it? Lurking is boring.

>>5255608
>Aw shit, you're pointing out something I literally don't think I've said before now
I don't see how I did, but you're welcome.

>Some narramemes usage or patterns are learned at a family level and then again at a geographic level. The two levels of direct influence for speakers.
I'd add a cultural level removed with nationality, to account for 'accents' in the written word, but why does parsing a speaker's narramemes even matter? Just to identify where they come from?

>>5253469

And you don't seem to understand
A shame you seemed an honest man

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>>5255769
When you say speakers, do you mean the term as I defined it up top? You're asking why a person should bother parsing speakers? If so: To better understand other people? If you can understand fundamentally what they're working with you can better facilitate communication. But there's a couple of points of data one can spin this stuff around to glean, like a person's geographic location, yeah.

>>5255794
And you don't seem the lying kind
A shame that I can read your mind

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>>5255769
The real scary thought is that I'm 40 years too late and the internet killed our ability to map first world countries in realtime without crazy static.

It's all really interesting and I can't believe no one has ever done it before.

Although it's pretty much stating a technical definition of "style", and rigid criteria to interpret each author's one.
It might be useful for someone trying to improve his style. I'll try it sometime.

Only one critic: your way of listing narramemes is pretty complicate, figures included. I agree with >>5254323 , it'd be way easier to follow.

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>>5255837
I've not thought of a reason to be aware of one's own other than to manipulate them for it's own sake which seems needlessly complicated. By all means go crazy with it though. Do what you do.

Nesting is something I plan on implementing. It's cleaner. His criticism was simple and obviously true but more of a QOL update type of thing.

OP, check out the Aarne-Thompson classification system if you haven't already.

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>>5255856
I have, this is what I was hoping to cling to way back when I was coming up with the original premise. But this is proto-tvtropes at it's cleanest. Classification of tropes and their inclusion in the plot. Propp and I agree on this point. But even morphology got caught up in the symbols and kept ignoring how those symbols are manipulated during implementation to convey additional information.
Very good point though. It was one of the first hurdles I had.

>>5255886
Stripping it for nationality might still be interesting. Also will you marry me?

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>>5255904
If you will pay to let me write words for sad people and/or play with this thing forever then I'm sure we could work something out.

And parsing it for national markers just seems vague and pointless when you can use it better understand how another person thinks.

Can you explain more about your order of operation?

>>5255918
I'm thinking more from a limiting noise view- you can strip out the most likely exposure to a trope for even a speaker because they're childhood level meme. A high incidence of starting a story with a place you use to indicate Western exposure, but most any of the A-T scale can do that, and with what one's childhood exposure is. The more of tvtropes someone introjects, likewise, reflects their exposure during a specific period, though a more confined period. The cumulative incidences of reference to either tells a lot about a person and their culture, which you can then disregard as not the speaker but the speaker in regard to performance.

And no, I was hoping to live off your money.

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>>5255957

From here? >>5253962
> Remove the context, isolate the narrameme, apply the context, determine the function, chart.

Rephrased: 1) Ignore what the words are conveying, focus instead on noticing the beginning and ending of a single change in world state.
2) Determine (using the glossary or devise a term if necessary) what the isolated narrameme's function within the context is.
3) Chart the narrameme and move on to the next one.

From there you can begin discussing patterns that emerge from the raw data.

>>5253469
This is good work, OP. Please continue with it.

I feel that this misses out a key point in the establishment of an 'authorial style', namely complexity. Structural complexity would likely be indicated by a rapid succession of your narramemes within a comparatively short body of text, but what about breadth of vocabulary? Certain authors are incredibly verbose and eloquent, whilst others are more succinct.

The way that ideas are expressed in literature is as important as the ideas themselves, and this form of analysis seems to function independent of this fact. Or have I missed something?

I'm browsing from a phone, on a train, so this may well be the case...

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>>5255985
Sorry bb, head games like this don't pay the bills.

So what you're saying is that you're in this case seeking to eliminate what you see as cultural influences to better isolate an individual speaker's voice (and we're talking speakers, not performers here). The only hard part is that there's so little that doesn't get swallowed up in the family and regional influences that a national influence (unless the nation is very small or /very/ involved in the individual's life) is statistically insignificant on things short than, probably, entire books.

There are small narrameme patterns that I think of as authorial thumbprints, tricks of the trade type of concepts. Then there are, hypothetically, larger narramememtic tendencies (probably noted in family combinations, not specific memes) of a culture. You'd need to sift a LOT of data to get the latter. Unfeasible for now, but way down the road I could see it working.

>>5255986
Yep. Nice. Operating that would be a real test of skills for him.
>>5256003
I think it's not necessarily a problem. He can just make new categories to break down the complexity. Or layer the world state.

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>>5256003
It's actually noted by a blending of fundamental narramemes into one unit of world change, but redefining it as such doesn't negate your point.

Put simply, vocabulary is a tool of dialect and people have studied that to death. If you wanted a grandiose definition of style I'd suggest applying the narrameme theory here as a supplement to a content approach. The content itself is independent of the method an author combines thought groups to convey it.

>>5256003
This is just a proposal of an alternative model. No need to collect everything. You shouldn't judge it like that. It's missing the whole forest.

Someone give me a sentence long explanation of what this topic is about.

>>5256008
>>5256008
Nationality is misleading. An exposure to German fairy tales obviously won't limit one to Germany, but it places the author within the Western zone. An exposure to a greater incidences of Western canon, such as its folk tales, off sets how original and how often the speakerly parts can be, but also whether they are indicative of an average Western childhood or tip over the limit of knowledge into an investment in the tropes for performance. An interesting counerbalance of this would be picking out Indian Engineer linguistic tropes from those educated in the English system; while the Indian Engineers learnt high prestige English, its use was much different to the English system which has a canon to slot it into and whose students would use high prestige in regard to canon but not in regard to day to day tasks. Likewise, the malapropisms and feigned prestige of U English.
Tl;dr- sociolects,man.

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>>5256056
Using the often unconscious building blocks of story construction to chart the flow of intention; the resulting patterns are useful for a couple of different applications.

>>5256077
Oh, okay. Lain a shit

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>>5256058
I agree that it's about exposure, not place of existence. That's part of the fun, there's an adding and subtracting (mostly just adding) going on when you apply it for location identification variance.

>>5256087
Oh, okay.

>>5256092
That's also why I don't bother to search the locations of performers. Motherfuckers can learn from anywhere if they're smart.

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This s fascinating OP, do you have a pastebin or site where I can go over it in depth after this thread dies?

I'd also love to know your thoughts on Lain.

Will you make a pastebin or paper, OP. Will you use tripcode next time?

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>>5256216
Not really though turns out you can find the cloud atlas paper if you google narrameme. And I think it's a clever show that made me a little smarter for having seen it.

>>5256226
Naw, I'll probs just keep using lain. There's a forum in here some anon made, I'll try to dump everything into that forum and use it for work just to keep it semi-central for all the not-me's in the world that are interested.

>>5256216
The thread will stay up here
https://warosu.org/lit/thread/S5253469
after this one has died.

>>5256236
>Naw, I'll probs just keep using lain. There's a forum in here some anon made, I'll try to dump everything into that forum and use it for work just to keep it semi-central for all the not-me's in the world that are interested.
And then someone somewhere plagiarizes your work and get rich from it. Congratulations, Lain.

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Does anyone have a compelling case for a particular longform text for me to analyze first? Name of the wind seems meta enough to provide some fun places to explore. I just read it recently so that should help understand intent.

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>>5256247
My name's stamped all over it and I've presented it in front of audiences. More importantly, I'm just happy other people understand it and are interested in seeing it furthered.

We need to cloud source analysis of literary works through this system, then post them on the /lit/ Wikia. This could be revolutionary.

>>5253469
hello op, i have asperger's and know little of literature, writing, or communication. do you think i might benefit from this? i feel simply knowing all about this would improve my critical reading, but i also have a problem just reading something. i hope to find a way to study the writing of others, because i've recently started to enjoy my own, and i think this would help a lot. i think this seems great, and i made an attempt at something similar when i wanted to emulate someone else's writing, but i didn't have all this knowledge and experience like you, so it was difficult to even start. if i misunderstand something, can i ask about it? i'll rethink of what i'm misunderstanding. i'm also unaware of several words you use, but i can look those up.

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>>5256333
I'll answer to the best of my ability. Make sure to evaluate it properly for it's functions, while useful it's not the only useful method of distinct analysis. It is useful when looking for why an author would choose choice A over B when at creative impasse.

>>5255886
so instead of analyzing the tropes are you focusing on how the author use this tropes and shift from one to the other?? and this was never done before? (just asking)

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>>5256379
Yes. And dumbfoundingly yes.

Ever thought of taking this to another level? You have the author, his tropes, where he includes them, and why he does so in the context of creating a certain conclusion/expression in the work.

Could you not also add how people outside of the author's "intended audience" might interpret this same work?

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>>5256472
You're talking about combining it with other forms of analysis. But you're literally talking about cataloging possible human reactions to art, have fun with that. That's the purpose of stuff like Marxist critique or any other analysis with dictated bias in the audience. And that analysis wouldn't see much help from narramemes since what you care about in that instance is reader response not authorial intent.

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>>5256504
Actually, now that I think about it, simply dropping intent and focusing on widespread reaction to such repeated styles would yield interesting results. On it's own it wouldn't mean anything but with a contextual analysis to bolster it one might find something funny.
How /lit/ is this, it might not be able to identify what makes a work great, but it should help identify what makes it popular.

That's dirty. Good job anon.

>>5253672
>http://www.ulillillia.us/sitemap.shtml

>When you view a form anywhere, fill it out as you normally would, if needed.
>When you finish, select the first area that required typing and press control+A [to select all; command+A for Mac users] then press control+C [to copy the text to the clipboard; command+C for Mac users].
>Open up notepad.

What the butt? Just use Lazarus.

>>5256504
>And that analysis wouldn't see much help from narramemes since what you care about in that instance is reader response not authorial intent.

I disagree. I think that if narramemes can be cataloged enough for say, two authors of different cultures (that are acclaimed in their own specific culture), then one could begin to deduce what the other's reaction would be to the one.

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>>5256532
OH! We're back on the point from earlier about blueprints. What you're describing is just enacting the creative process. So, sure?

>>5256517
Is this like plugging a humanities essay generator into gender genie?

>>5256517
>simply dropping intent and focusing on widespread reaction to such repeated styles would yield interesting results.

Yes, exactly. I think authorial intent is an interesting topic, but another one that I feel would deserve more exploration would be how narrameme combinations and usage create their reaction. It could add an application to the narrameme-- in a sense you might be able to create a popular story by number crunching combinations.

>>5254032
>doesn't know the pizza king aka mr no mirrors please

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>>5256552
I don't know what those words mean.


>>5256555
I'm not sure I like you anon. Go chase some wind for a while.

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>>5256547
Why are anime mouths always totally off center?

>>5256566
>I'm not sure I like you anon. Go chase some wind for a while.

I don't care to write the story myself but the fact that you can number crunch a work's popularity and now use your analysis to number crunch what narramemes are present in the work means there is now a connection between the two that can be used. It sort of resolves the "how did he do that?" when someone thinks of a lauded author's work.

M-mods sticky please?

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>>5256555
>>5256591

You're describing comfortable stories. Ones where the narrameme patterns are as expected with little performance that even bends the mold. While there is a time and place for everything, such as a comfortable story like Ocean At the End of the Lane, you're using that comfort to better convey a specific point you feel is important.
Making a comfortable story just because you know people will read it sans content is laziness.

>>5256601
No, not at all. You could also use the analysis to determine what narramemes haven't been used or have been used very little. It allows you to see if what you are thinking of writing has been done to death or done at all. Of course this would require a massive databank of works and authors, but there is a clear usage to all this data. In a sense it demystifies the story telling process. It could actually be beneficial in the creation of novel works as gaps or absences become evident.

>>5256566
If you plug the copypasta from http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/ into a gender analysis tool like http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php,you'd probably find it to have a formal weak female because of the tropes of the genre, even though the generated author may be male, and informal scores would show more male use of language. Some gender analysis tools do colour coding similar to yours, so it could add a further dimension.

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>>5256629
Ew, that's blunt force trauma statistics. Males use X % times compared to Female use of X % times. That's kinda gross but I'm sure it does yield tendencies.

>>5253617
just memes bro
just memes

>>5256629
Apparently I write like a weak, European female.

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>>5256627
These are true statements.

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what the fuck is going on in this thread

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>>5256684
I've been helping people learn about narramemes. If you get caught up and have any questions I can answer them.

>>5256665
Applying it to gender linguistics essays tropes is beautiful though because it shows the weak female prestige bias. A more informally female voice might get grades which are better again than one just formally weak female, but the inability to write abut postmodernism without what are accepted tropes of female speech isn't wholly arbitrarily applied. Women phrasing things as I feel while men phrase them as xyz articles are popular enough that the idea of separate codes in Western culture isn't hard to divide down even further to female and male prestige areas- but in languages with stricter social codes and more engrained gender roles of language, like Japanese, it's going to disregard many indicators of speaker and audience from ignoring male/female phrasing. Actually, somewhere with strict linguistic and social codes would be an ideal sandbox for this type of thing, where the constraint is obvious more than in English.

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>>5256734
Okay.

>>5256734
Why do you have to bring gender into it. I feel like that is missing the point of what OP is trying to do.

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>>5256783
It is, but it doesn't detract from anything. Gender analysis is just one more form of declarative biased analysis used to shine light on different small corners of thought. Narramemes are useful in that they can lead to better understanding of how the genders are treated in a work.

>>5256783
Because it's one of the social prestige markers which varies most wildly across cultures and within it. Ther social markers like class and sexuality etc would also be worthwhile parsing for cultural affiliation. Lots of languages have sprung up around class, genders and sexualities- Polari comes to mind immediately which is a confluence of several low prestige cultures building their own- so identifying those indicators tell a lot about the author and their cultural leanings even within a culture.

You're doing really interesting work, and you've got good taste in anime. Thanks for this great thread OP.

>>5256839
Other* social markers

>>5256839
I still feel like you're missing the point here, but I'd rather not try and articulate OP's ideas and make a fool of myself.
What you're suggesting would require an incredible amount of data, and even then you would have to generalize at some point it seems.

We need to assess Shakespeare with this. And the Bible

>>5254032
The poster was implying that Op is autistic.

>>5256883
op flat out admits it in the first post.

>>5253469
So you want this to help you become a better writer, even though you're autistic. How will this help?

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>>5256929
It's not that it helps persay but trying to get better led to the understanding of the patterns ere.

>>5256839
Let's not politicize this. The humanities and academia in general are overly politicized already. I see this as an opportunity to move away from that and back into the realm of abstraction.

>>5256883
Apparently Ulillillia hasn't been diagnosed with autism
("source"): https://encyclopediadramatica.es/Ulillillia#Mental_Health

>>5256939
And recognising patterns will lead to what? What I'm trying to ascertain is the functional outcome of this method.

>>5256981
Scratching that autistic itch for organisation I imagine.

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>>5253469
feminist teen romance novel?

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>>5256981
A better understanding of the document as presented. A different approach to understand implimented language.

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>>5256988
Haha, oh god. It's awful. The new one is better. It's a really fun concept to work with "make this genre not shit".

>>5256953
>Let's not politicize this. The humanities and academia in general are overly politicized already. I see this as an opportunity to move away from that and back into the realm of abstraction.
I don't see how that is politicising besides acknowledging linguistic prestige (which pretty much all languages have) to exist. I can't find it in thread but how are you defining prestige within your system and how are you planning on divorcing it from cultural mores?

>>5256993
I'm sorry, but with an attitude like this I think it will be very difficult for you to understand, let alone enjoy, most of the best literature. It's not a systematic effort. It's reading one line or phrase that illuminates ideas you've never even come close to thinking of by yourself, or feeling intense emotion for characters that were formed and exist entirely in the mind of another human being.

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>>5257015
That's awfully presumptuous. I guess all of my joy in reading is false and unworthy of feeling and all my art is empty.

>>5257014
I'm not OP, I should have specified that. And I wouldn't say the process itself is political, but it could definitely be used to political ends. It's really up to OP to decide, though.

>>5256981
see
>>5256627

I could tell from the animu picture in the OP that this thread had autism potential.

>>5257031
I would say the process itself is social, and to that extent largely poltical, because linguistic prestige develops to denote affiliation and hierarchies present within the language. The observation of those systems would ideally be apolitical*, but the assumption that it would be political and therefore must not be observed is in itself political.
*obviously nothing is ideal.

>>5257081
Within the *culture* rather than language as more than one language may be at play.

>>5257015
>It's not a systematic effort.
What's up with this essentialist argument? The idea that art is high-order "self expression" and that reducing it to a system of processes threatens it's unquestionable purity is really what's causing literature to stagnate/decay into identity politics.

>>5257081
Again it's OP's call but perhaps if those classifications were considered auxiliary to the narrameme classification system rather than paramount we might be able to avoid some of the political pitfalls that deconstruction suffered.

>>5257104
Well, it's not that they're paramount, but they would still be integral. In terms of indicators of cultural affiliation, language use is too big of one to ignore, and OP seems to want to work out how culturally affiliated anyone is so it seemed on point. I get the fear of tumblrite prestige becoming the official language but I care much more about autistic levels of data analysis.

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So, does anyone have direct questions about the method or approaches to the concept?

>>5257205
Where's the dictionary?

>>5257205
i would love for this to be made into a video or powerpoint.. like a clear flow illustrating how and what all of this means

it's like describing engines with only words, but when you look at a picture it becomes fairly obvious

>>5257167
>I get the fear of tumblrite prestige becoming the official language but I care much more about autistic levels of data analysis.
Fair enough.

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>>5257205
I'm compiling your posts and running my own narrameme analysis on them while presupposing you're a speaker. The intention is to shock people with how similar you're dialogue appears to that of Yasuo's through the first three episodes. Excel is open, OP. Your posts are compiled. I will prove to everyone here you're just a hack autist influenced by too much anime and too much self esteem. We're killing Will Hunting tonight, boys. Rev up those fryers.

>>5257232
Read the thread, mate.

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>>5257222
There's one inside the Cloud Atlas presentation. I've got a creeping feeling any newer ones are in my student account at school. But the presentation one is still easy to talk about.

>>5257232
There are some, take a look at the mentioned cloud atlas presentation.

It's >>5253794 for easy reference.

>>5253547
Do you expect a performer to "evolve" into a separate type when they start self-editing their work taking into consideration the model you're outlining?
Considering distinct "types" may end up restricting the usefulness of the system; consider making it an axis going from "says things exactly the way they were thought, doesn't even edit their stream of consciousness to make it conform to the rules of the language" to "self-edits sufficiently to make any analysis method useless", or something to that effect.

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>>5257258
Self editing does things to the writing so it's less about them transforming and more me needing to treat them differently.

>>5257241
To Lain's dad? This is amusing, continue.

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>>5256999
I like your mindset. Also, nice method of analysis you presented there. Not sure how I feel about the word 'narrameme', though.

Anyhow, good luck and greetings from Germany.

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>>5257286
That's fine. It's not my word, I take no offense. Greetings from Missouri.

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>>5257258
I recognize a profitability in not discarding this entirely. I'll keep it in mind should something arise that could come from its use.

I'm somewhat intrigued and I think I'd like to try it myself. I wanted to select an extremely simple story to do. At first I thought about children's picture books such as "The Very Hungry Caterpillar" but the pictures are an essential part of them, and I don't want to involve that. Now I'm thinking about doing one of Aesop's Fables or perhaps a greentext story. I'd like your input on picking a simple body of text that would clearly and cleanly demonstrate your method.

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>>5257241
>This motherfucker.

>>5257205
Have you tried this with any epic poetry? I'm about to pop my cherry on George's Gilgamesh, just to do some groundwork.

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>>5257314
You'll want to reference this post: >>5253962

>>5257315
I have not. It'd be fun I imagine.

>>5257275
From his character description, he seems to be your best fit. For what is /lit/ if not your Lain, to be directed toward your personal version of the Wired? The happy-go-lucky-days of reading about whales and ballistic-penises screaming across the sky are far gone. Even everyday speech can be broken down to its basic subunits. Who's to say we won't one day discover narramemes to precede the culture we're born into? Habits purely sourced from the Imaginary? Then we might found societies based on similar narrameme trends...

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>>5257329
Okay.

>>5257308
I think that the distinction is already useless – nearly everyone self-edits to some degree, while remaining a "speaker" in some aspects (and usually being unaware of that). If the line is blurry from the start, why have it at all?

>>5257329
> Who's to say we won't one day discover narramemes to precede the culture we're born into?
Oh, of course we will, but I expect their origin to be traceable to the features of the human brain.

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>>5257351
Because that which has already been done has shown common differences in approach to the degree that a binary pair benefited the analysis. You're welcome to not implement them but application of the work produced isn't as useful from what I've seen.

Saying more would be presumptuous and speculative at best.

>>5257357
>I expect their origin to be traceable to the features of the human brain
And even further in the future people will laugh at what will essentially be a modernized version of Phrenology.

>>5257314
>>5257328
I think I will use "The Tortoise and the Hare" as told by Joseph Jacobs. Here is the full text http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Hare_and_the_Tortoise_%28Aesop%29

So the first thing I need to do is convert the narrative into a list of changes in world state, right?

>>5257375
>modernized version of Phrenology
Isn't that just neuroscience in general though?

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>>5257391
Correct. And then assign the intended function of each change in world state. After the text is translated you search the raw data for patterns that emerge.

>>5257401
How exactly should I start? I can think of two ways to go about this.

1. Adhere closely to the text and note a change in world state when it occurs, in order, and only when explicitly mentioned

2. Construct the story world and list all the elements, including implicit ones

For example, there is no description of setting in the text itself, but using the knowledge that the characters are animals along with previous experience with such animal stories it seems extremely obvious that it takes place in an outdoors-type setting like the woods. Or is the setting completely irrelevant in this case, and not listable?

>>5257401
Can you define what you mean by "world state" again? Sorry if I missed it.

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>>5257425
I wouldn't list it but you raise a good point. What I do is take the whole story in text and split the consecutive narrative into its distinct narramemes. There's something to be said for establishing an "implied" family, but I'd have to do some thinking on the best way to do it because much of that is contextual.

This is why working glossaries are important. They're a point where you just lay your foot down and say "fuck it, I'm using this set, I'll add any new stuff to the next one" otherwise work becomes almost impossible at this stage of the game. In the future much fuller glossaries would mitigate this problem, but for now we live in wild times.

>>5257427
Changes in world state are phrases that when read alter the reader's perception of the canon universe.


This just passed the 18 hour mark on the thread and I've been here for 14 of them. Y'all are an endless fountain of questions, thank you.

>>5257461
>What I do is take the whole story in text and split the consecutive narrative into its distinct narramemes.
I think that may be the second one, then. Very well, I'll attempt it in the way I'm most comfortable with and report back.

i'm sure you posted this on reddit

link me to that page

if you haven't, i applaud you

even if nothing much comes from it, the whole concept is quite amazing. the fact that it's bringing something completely unconscious for probably 99.9% of all writers into the conscious is revolutionary.

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>>5257469
Capital. Godspeed and fair winds.

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>>5257472
I have not. Someone is welcome to direct their attention here though if they feel that course of action has merit.

>>5257472
> even if nothing much comes from it, the whole concept is quite amazing
Surely this isn't the first time you've encountered the notion of a writer subconsciously and unintentionally leaving some kind of "footprint" in their work?

>>5257482
you're a good person. you're brilliant and good. don't EVER let anyone tell you otherwise.

>>5257501
writing is all somewhat unconscious when you do it, so no. but -- and maybe i'm not understanding the idea here -- if enough works are subjected to this analysis and we get a general glossary, you can make possible a level of composition and design in literature that is completely intentional

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>>5257504
That's very kind, but hardly true. Let's all love lain.

>>5257205
How do you imagine a complex sentence being divided into narramemes? I was trying this out with the first sentence of The Metamorphosis and found several potential narramemes in that one sentence alone.

Setting
-Animal setting

Characters
-Hare (A)
-Tortoise (B)
-Spectators

note: A and B are arbitrary designations for main characters

Hare (A)
-Boastful
-Quick
-Self-confident

Tortoise (B)
-Quiet
-Slow
-Steady

Events
-A. claims great ability
-A. challenges all to contest of ability
-B. accepts challenge
-A. mocks B.'s ability
-A. predicts A.'s victory
-B. denounces A's prediction
-Contest
--A. takes the lead
--A. stops trying
---due to overconfidence
--B. surpasses A.
---B.'s ability (trying) surpasses A.'s ability (not trying)
--A. realizes mistake
--A. tries to make up for mistake
--A. cannot make up for mistake
--B. victory
-B. states that low ability (trying) is superior.

Conclusion
-Moral
--It is better to have low ability but try consistently than to have high ability but not try.

End

Well, that was certainly interesting. Now I build a glossary and categorize these, right?

>>5257584
I originally used > instead of - but I didn't like the green. I think > would look more legible now that I see it.

>>5257584
>build a glossary
This is harder than I thought. I'm going to go down the list and try to think of a category for each.

>>5257623
Why not just use OP's glossary? Surely not everyone is expected to build an individual glossary for a single analysis? How could a database be created when everyone's glossaries are different?

>>5257636
yeah, the goal must be a general glossary or else it's a lot of work for naught

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>>5257581
Exactly how they were shown in the presentations? The method includes measures to help with this.

>>5257584
"Animal setting" Are you marking this as an implied setting since there wasn't one stated in the story?

As for the arrangement of the data itself I think you're trying to do something that isn't what I intended.

For example I would have broken the story down like this:
The Hare was once (1) boasting of his speed before the other animals (2). "I have never yet been beaten," said he, "when I put forth my full speed. (3) I challenge any one here to race with me." (4)

The Tortoise said quietly, "I accept your challenge." (5)

"That is a good joke," said the Hare; "I could dance round you all the way." (6)

"Keep your boasting till you've beaten," answered the Tortoise. (7) "Shall we race?" (8)

(9) So a course was fixed and a start was made. (10) The Hare darted almost out of sight at once, (11) but soon stopped and, (12) to show his contempt for the Tortoise, lay down to have a nap. (13) The Tortoise plodded on and plodded on, (14) and when the Hare awoke from his nap, he saw the Tortoise just near the winning-post (15) and could not run up in time to save the race. (16) Then said the Tortoise:

"Plodding wins the race." (17)


And then those seventeen narramemes would be identified by glossary or definition and plotted on a line as shown above.

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>>5257639
The goal is a general glossary but I would expect for years to keep coming into contact with new ones regularly, thus the "working glossaries" I refer to.

As it stands now it's useful, but each new term allows for more clarity and division. Its a sliding scale from useful to extra useful.

>>5257640
Oh, interesting. Your method is actually closer to 1 as I wrote in >>5257425

Give me a few minutes to think about this.

>>5257636
I'll try it then.

>>5257640
>"Animal setting" Are you marking this as an implied setting since there wasn't one stated in the story?
Sorry, yes. I would mark any story about animal stand-ins for people as "animal setting." That's just to note that it doesn't take place in an animal city or a domestic setting. Also, one function of these animals-as-people stories is to have them take place in relative isolation where external factors like greater society don't affect the moral.

>>5257640
If it's not too much trouble I'd like you to identify your 17 narrative memes with your glossary. I'm going to do the same with my arrangement. If my hunch is correct we might end up in a similar place.

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>>5257659
A good idea. Depending on what information you're attempting to glean it would often be nice to know that. With so few stories done at this point I've not had to deal with filing problems but this would be something to note.

op, what's your thoughts in this? http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/editors_pick/1966_08-09_pick.html

>>5257640
>Exactly how they were shown in the presentations? The method includes measures to help with this.
What I'm trying to say is that a detailed sentence could be divided until almost every word is considered its own narrameme. The question I have is where to stop dividing. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough.

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>>5257673
Yeah, you're gonna need to give me a couple of minutes to do it though. This keyboard is missing six keys and I'm grabbing a new one from elsewhere before starting.

>>5257636
>>5257639
Ok, actually the reason why I didn't use OP's glossary at first was because I didn't really understand each of the 35 terms and it might be too much to ask for short definitions for each

>>5257681
Changes in world state are the smallest complete concepts, ideas or actions that cause discernible change in canon.

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>THIS WHOLE THREAD

WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING
THIS ISN'T BOOKS

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>>5257695
You don't even have to ask OP.

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>>5257695
Have you checked the Cloud Atlas presentation for definitions? They're not good ones, I agree, but they should be just enough to get you going.

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>>5257700
This guy, this guy right here.

>>5257700
>>5257702
Oh, thanks. I'll get to it right now.

>>5257699
Yet, it has everything to do with them. Maybe trying reading before shitposting.

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>>5257711
The Hare was once (1) boasting of his speed before the other animals (2). "I have never yet been beaten," said he, "when I put forth my full speed. (3) I challenge any one here to race with me." (4)

The Tortoise said quietly, "I accept your challenge." (5)

"That is a good joke," said the Hare; "I could dance round you all the way." (6)

"Keep your boasting till you've beaten," answered the Tortoise. (7) "Shall we race?" (8)

(9) So a course was fixed and a start was made. (10) The Hare darted almost out of sight at once, (11) but soon stopped and, (12) to show his contempt for the Tortoise, lay down to have a nap. (13) The Tortoise plodded on and plodded on, (14) and when the Hare awoke from his nap, he saw the Tortoise just near the winning-post (15) and could not run up in time to save the race. (16) Then said the Tortoise:

"Plodding wins the race." (17)

1) 9/13
2) 36 (due to boasting)
3) 24
4) 37
5) 33
6) I would add a "functional" narrameme here for Boasts, but for now 24/28
7) 22
8) 33
9) 32
10) 35
11) 34
12) 36 (contempt being a kicker here)
13) 32
14) 24
15) 18
16) 17

There are only sixteen, I put a nine out front of "so a course was fixed" that shouldn't be there.

>>5257752
Ok, I've definitely been using the wrong approach. The analysis isn't about the world that the narrative creates but rather how the narrative creates the world.

In my post >>5257425 number 1. was the correct interpretation.

I'm going to try it the right way with the Fox and the Grapes now.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes#Jacobs.27_translation_.281894.29

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>>5257778
Fables were a good choice. Since they were supposed to be understood by the lowest denominator they're going to be short on multiple use narramemes and succinct to the point that translation should be easy.

One hot summer's day[1] a Fox[2] was strolling[3] through an orchard[4] till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch.[5] "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump,[6] and just missed the bunch.[7] Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel,[8] but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour."[9]

It is easy to despise what you cannot get.[10]

End

Would you agree with my divisions?

>>5257808
There should be a division between where he speaks and then moves as it is a change in what the fox is doing. Also, it's a change from speech to action.

>>5257817
Even if the function to the narrative is fundamntally identical?

Is this better?

One hot summer's day[1] a Fox[2] was strolling[3] through an orchard[4] till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch.[5] "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he.[6] Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump,[7] and just missed the bunch.[8] Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel,[9] but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air,[10] saying: "I am sure they are sour."[11]

It is easy to despise what you cannot get.[10]

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>>5257808
There's personal debate on my part for combining 2+3, an identifier without engagement in the narrative should probably be combined with the engagement otherwise all names are just pink blocks and that's not useful.

I also split speech and action.

>One hot summer's day[1] a Fox was strolling[2] through an orchard[3] till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch.[4] "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. {5} Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump,[6] and just missed the bunch.[7] Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel,[8] but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, {9} saying: "I am sure they are sour."{10}
>
>It is easy to despise what you cannot get.[11]

>>5257829
The Sycophantic Fox and the Gullible Raven is superior

>>5257827
They're not identical in function though. The fox saying he wants the grapes because he is thirsty functions differently than his action to get the grapes.
Think of it through the spectator's eyes their attention would refocus from the speech to the action to the result of the action.

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Can someone set up a cross thread? I'm not sure what the thresholds are on /lit/ but I suspect we'll be reaching an image/post limit soon.

>>5257846
Oh, am I the Fox? I want to be the fox.

>>5257855
It's 300 unless it gets stickied, which is unlikely.

>>5257855
THE MORAL is: A fox is bound
To be a shameless sinner.
And also:
When the cheese comes round
You know it ’s after dinner.
But (what is only known to few)
The fox is after dinner, too.

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>>5257856
Good to note. Looks like a new thread would be a good step.

This thread deserves archiving.

Whether or not your ideas are complete OP, I like the attempts.

>>5257869
Also, motherfucker, get that glossary for your circle-graphic out ASAP. This is the crux of your work and it's fucking gone. Hell, I'll dress it up for you.

>>5257829
1. 12,13
2. 32
3. 13
4. 32,11
5. 37
6. 32
7. 33
8. 33
9. ? 33
10. ? 17
11. 22

I actually found this very difficult, I kept wanting to mark everything that wasn't setting or morals as "conflict" or "exposition"

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>>5257880

Do you mean this? >>5257700

>>5257880
I preferred working with http://prezi.com/vlyzorlui8x5/pulling-apart-the-threads-a-narratological-character-study/?utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=copy

(click see full transcript)

>>5257888
Ok, now to summarize this into a useful image, we should have the image, the glossary, and a color coded dissection of a specific work.

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ITT: people pretend that the Russian formalists never existed

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>>5257881
1) I wouldn't call "summer day" a geographic location.
2) Fox is a subject.
3) Geographic not temporal
4) Good, possibly grapes as a subject since you're modifying it
5) Good
6) Good
7) Good
8) Good
9) you are right, there's more to this one
10) 17/29 would be acceptable to me
11) Excellent

This is about as simple as they come. Try to imagine a complex modern work intended for the educated elite only. Now you know why the lain cries.

>>5257898
Man, if only I made a presentation that included all of those things.

>>5257926
Well you came to us with autistic genius, it's only fair we help you clean it up.

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>>5257924
I've referenced Propp's strengths and weakness already in this thread and he was the closest of the lot.

>>5257939
Lol

But right or wrong it's putting the effort in that counts so I'll stop flaming you and leave now

To conclude my attempts so far, it's certainly an interesting experience and the results could be very useful, but in my personal experience I really dislike doing the work because it involves a lot of cleanly resolving ambiguities and I always tear myself up over ambiguities. I'm suprised that nobody else has given it a try, maybe we just need to wait for >>5257315 >>5255837 >>5253839 >>5253932 to report back

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Here's a second thread since we've only got seven posts left here: >>5257963

OP started a new thread: >>5257963

>>5257020
If you do enjoy it then fine, great, good for you, keep going at it etc

What I'm saying is I have a hard time believing you do.

This thread is shit.

>>5260212
it's ironic that it's the non-autistic guy who's having difficulties imagining people enjoying things differently to him assuming that you're not autistic yourself

>>5257104
Not really, I'm not saying reducing it to a systematic process threatens it's purity. Where did you get that from?

I'm saying I don't believe this will have a functional use for anyone outside of the autistic spectrum (and no, I'm not using that pejoratively)

>>5260218
I can't think like autistic people because I'm not autistic. Why is that problematic, or ironic, for you?

>>5260220
>Where did you get that from?
It was implied through your emotional appeal.

>I'm saying I don't believe this will have a functional use for anyone outside of the autistic spectrum
Ever heard of digital humanities?