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What is the difference between biological...
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You are currently reading a thread in /lgbt/ - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender

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Can someone please explain to me the difference between sex and gender?

Lately there has been this trend in culture to make this distinction between sex and gender. I'm pretty skeptical of there actually being a difference (i.e. both words refer to the same thing), but I could be wrong.

So I come to you legbt experts. Please educate me, what is the difference between sex and gender? Is there even one?

I suppose the implications are that if this distinction doesn't make sense then transgenderism kind of loses it's foundation. So for trans people there has to be this agenda to push for this distinction to be accepted within mainstream society (at least for the political trans).

And obviously if it doesn't exist, as in it makes no sense, it's confused, not conceptually sound then all this bigender and agender stuff is nonsense, and the entire basis for transgenderism would crumble, right?

I'm just skeptical of it. Every time someone explains it it seems muddled. I've heard people say eg, sex is your body - your testicles or ovaries, and gender is your mind. But that makes no sense because your mind is your brain right? Or at least depends on your brain. And your brain is part of your body, so it's not really a distinction. Like why would the body be wrong and the mind be the right one, for trans people? Why not the other way round? What does it even mean for a body to be mis-matched? That makes no sense in terms of biology, nature doesn't try and make things correctly, and get the mixed up. Things just evolve, divide, reproduce, etc. There is no 'supposed' to be x way.

Please educate me on the difference betwteen sex and gender. Basically the problem comes to down to me finding it odd/incorrect/nonsense to say or think of myself as having a male sex and a male gender. I don't feel like there's two at all. Seems wrong.
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>>5715615
>Can someone please explain to me the difference between sex and gender?
there is not a difference.
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>>5715615
Gender is used as a short for "gender identity".
Both sex and gender mean the same thing, but they're used for different context.

When talking about a persons whole sex, there's a distinction made. You talk about the body, without concern for the brain, which is not limited to genitalia and chromosomes, then you're talking about a persons sex. That's where gender comes in, gender is talking about the sex of the brain, but a persons brain sex is still part of a persons "complete sex".

You'll see a lot of other responses, that are fueled by feminism, which will sound a lot like tumblrina stuff, most of it is in complete contradiction to transsexualism, and invalidates it. However, a lot of trans people want to score brownie points with feminism, mtfs usually so they can get validation, and ftms because they're literally insane... Then obviously you have the fake trans people, who just claim to be trans for attention and oppression points, a way for them to feel value, due to victimhood culture.
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>>5715648
>Gender is used as a short for "gender identity".
What I mean with that is, when somebody is talking about gender, they're talking about their feelings, rather than strict neurology.

Gender and gender identity are very related, gender is the cause of gender identity.
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>>5715636
but if you take this position then how do you explain transgenderism as a medical illness?

if you accept there's no difference then you are at odds with all the doctors and psychaitrists and dsm and shit

it's like either you accept there is this non-sensical distinction or you have to posit that you're more intelligent or more correct than all these people who have devoted their lives to understanding or making this distinction

I don't feel comfortable with either

like seriously ask yourself: does "my sex is male and my gender is also male and these are two different things which just so happen to align" make sense? do we feel it, in our own experience that there are two things, sex and gender?

and like why the fuck would almost all of the world have magically aligning gender and sexes? is this just a magical coincidence? and why if there are two things, sex and gender, did it take like all of human history up to the last few decades for someone to notice it in there own experience? "Oh I totally didn't notice it all my life that I have a gender and a sex, theyve both been existing all my life and I just never realized it till caitlyn gender went on tv!"

It makes no sense. Can all the doctors REALLY be wrong?
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>>5715685
>What is intersex
If there's incongruenceies in the sex, the person is intersex. By your logic, because sex means something, that means intersex can't exist.
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>>5715685
>and like why the fuck would almost all of the world have magically aligning gender and sexes?
I don't know.
Like why the fuck do almost all of the world magically have two legs and two arms?
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if you really wanted to combine the two things into one system i guess you could describe it as sex being the sub-level where you have genetics and hormones and neurology etc. and gender as being the surface/super level that is behavior & "society" etc. this is why "not identifying with the gender assigned at birth" works for some people because the point at which they Y off from from a "normal" "gender identity" is more on the surface level but there are obviously a huge number of points down that line which differ & that's why we all hate each other
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>>5715648
>sex of the brain

is there actually any evidence for this?

so lets say you gave a scientist 8 brains. would he be able to work out the sex of the person the brain belongs to, just by examining the brain? Can scientists do this? Like if you cut their brains up can you tell which is male and what is female?
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>>5715807
Should be able to, the BNST is sex dimorphic afaik.
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>>5715807
Yes. The brain's structure and weight is somewhat different between the sexes. Like females have more gray matter but less of something else for example.

There's also the BSTc which is twice as large in males as it is in females and mtfs.
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Sex: Male (produces sperm), female (produces ova), asexual (produces neither)

Gender: Whatever bullshit you want to call yourself.

Gender roles: Socially construed.
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>>5716079
Why don't they just put trans people through mris to determine if they're really with the opposite brained sex they approve of your transition then? That way there's fewer cases of people regretting their transition or detransitioning?
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Are people really this retarded? Do we have to have these threads all the time? Come on people...
Biology is sex.
Feeling is gender.
Recognize others for their gender.
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>>5715615
You need to remember that the distinction between sex and gender was developed as a concept to let us distinguish between things that culturally were very closely intertwined.
That is, it was not intended as pertaining to biology per se at all.

Here's a simple example of why the distinction was drawn:
imagine these two statement
1) she can have kids b/c she's a woman
2) she can't be a doctor b/c she's a women (just suppose were in Saudi or the 19th c or something).

The statement "b/c she's a woman" looks the same in both sentences, and historic cultures have therefore tended to assume they mean the same thing.
But in fact, 'b/c she's a woman' in statement 1 means something like 'she has a womb etc.' whereas in statement 2 it means 'we don't let ladies do that around here.'

this is relevant, b/c people conflate the two kinds of 'b/c she's a woman' all the time. In the 19th c., people argued that being a doctor was biologically impossible for women, b/c they didn't have the nerves or something. It was hard to talk about this stuff clearly, so the distinction between sex and gender was invented to help clarify.

So don't think about yourself having a male sex and a male gender. They aren't things to have. But fathering a child pertains to your sex, while behaving in a manly fashion pertains to gender.

This may not help you re: transgenderism, but it's good to know where concepts come from.
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Also other question:

So
>1: people here often argue that hormones decide gender/sex above about all else
>2: second to that brain sex or dimorphism decides gender/sex
>3: trans people need hormones they don't naturally produce
>4: much of brain sex and the dimorphism develops that way because of hormones, oxytocin being a big one for females
>5: but if a trans person lacks these hormones does that mean they lack the female brain

Also what of cis gay men having more similarities with the female brains?
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>>5716263
Nah trans folks now trying to say they're biologically female and saying otherwise is transphobic.
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>>5716290
>Also what of cis gay men having more similarities with the female brains?
They don't actually have that, because those areas on of brains can be like a cis males for females, if they're lesbian.

Your other questions aren't actually questions, you're just staying statements.
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>>5716250
Because to my knowledge you don't observe the BSTc in MRI scans. You cut the brain up and look at a certain section of it in a microscope.
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>>5716300
>They don't actually have that, because those areas on of brains can be like a cis males for females, if they're lesbian.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080616-gay-brain_2.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/study-says-brains-of-gay/

Also fuck me I mean to make 5 a question. How is it that a trans person can say they need hormones because they have the whole brain of the opposite sex when in order to have the whole brain of the opposite sex you need hormones.

I can get it if you say you have parts of it, some mentality or just dysphoria that would make you happier in a more feminine or masculine form and that's why you need hormones. But to say you have just the entirely same opposite sex like brain (like if I were to take out bruce jenners brain and compare it to any other woman I wouldn't see any difference) doesn't make sense because you lack a large number of the hormones that make up the whole of the brain.
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>>5716374
Nobody said the whole brain, especially because a lot of the brain is plastic and completely dependent on the hormones.

I really can't take you seriously any longer, you get all these weird ideas, and your english is just too annoying to read.

Gay men and women don't have brains of the opposite sex, since those areas aren't what decides your sex, as a woman can have a brain that looks male in those regions.
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>>5716195
>>5716263

This seems to be the consensus of most medical, sociological and psychological articles and peers and discussions/studies. I only see otherwise in either super pol shitposting kind of places or super tumblr special snowflake places.

Weird how those too would agree.
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>>5715615

When people use "gender" they mean men and women.

When trans people use "gender" they mean brain sex. When they say "genders" they mean men, women, non-binaries - basically "genders" means social categories. Other times, trans will say "genders" or "gendering" which is assigning "woman/female" or "man/male" to people, things, etc. To radical trans activists, male and female are also "genders," that is, social categories or social constructs, that are, most importantly, permeable and defined by individuals.

When feminists use "gender" they mean the process of social conditioning that pressures females to be feminine/hetero and males to be masculine/hetero. This is why, when trans people say they transition because of "gender," you have feminists mocking them with statements like "liking pink doesn't make you a woman you tranny freak." Since some feminists try to get along with trans people, you'll see "gender" used in several different ways, but I think I've got the basic definitions here.

"Sex" is usually intercourse or everything about the body that isn't "brain sex."

I hope this helps. If you're already at a point where you realize "brain sex" is a farce (no one actually gets brain scans as part of the transition process), then I think you'll see how stupid the trans reasoning is.
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>>5716267
>But in fact, 'b/c she's a woman' in statement 1 means something like 'she has a womb etc.' whereas in statement 2 it means 'we don't let ladies do that around here.'

but this just begs the question that to 'being a lady' means something different than 'has a womb'.

which is precisely he conceptual split that's being debated.

as in, for most of the world statement 1 and statement 2 are referring to the same thing

1) she can have kids because she is a woman and therefore has a womb
2) she can't be a doctor because she's a woman (and women have wombs)
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>>5715615
Sex is what's in your pants. Gender is the kinda pants you wear. Sexual orientation is what you with what's in your pants when those pants are off.
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