is being a ftm and a feminist contradictory?

>>5688256
No.

Next!

>>5688256
No.

I believe in women's rights, I just have dysphoria that makes me feel happier as a guy and deeply uncomfortable having female sex characteristics.

This stupid argument has been debunked by tons of people for as long as "trans (corner of the) internet" has been a thing. Their posts are easily findable. Go read some existing shit and stop asking it again and again.

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The movement is contradictory enough without ftm bullshit added on top

just because i didn't enjoy the experience doesn't mean it has to be shit for others

/thread

>>5688270
>feminism
>womans rights
Pick one you mentally ill degenerate

FTM Terfs are the best.

>>5688297
people are still confusing woman's right movement of ~100 years ago with gender marxism of today's feminism

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>>5688256
Yes, but only a little.

Mainstream ideology around trans does't really interfere with concrete feminist goals, but it does contradict a lot of feminist theory (and therefore harms abstract goals of feminism).

A lot of feminist theory revolves around the notion that female and male brains are pretty much the same, and that most of the differences between men and women are due to socialization. Trans messes this up, because most people (outside of /pol/) believe that MtFs and FtMs are born trans, not socialized to be trans (that they have a male brain in a female body or visa versa). How can this be true if there's no such thing as a male or female brain? That's where trans conflicts with feminism.

Most feminists believe that the fact that fewer women pursue careers in computer-science than men (in developed countries), and more women pursue careers as kindergarten teachers than men; is entirely due to gender norms, socialization, and institutional sexism. Trans hurts feminism, because it supports the possibility that men and women chose different careers because women are biologically inclined toward social/nurturing work and men are biologically inclined to analytical work.

>>5688436
>Most feminists believe that the fact that fewer women pursue careers in computer-science than men (in developed countries), and more women pursue careers as kindergarten teachers than men; is entirely due to gender norms, socialization, and institutional sexism.
The education thing varies highly even in developed countries.

There are vastly more female engineering students in places like Canada or Sweden than in the US.

>>5688256
Having a brain and being a feminist are contradictory.

>>5688276
this to be honest family

>>5688256
Not at all. FtM are usually pretty crazy to begin with anyway.

>>5688256
No, but it would be kind of stupid to associate yourselves with the anti-trans feminists (who are a minority, but get a lot of attention and like to act like they're the true to voice of feminism)

>>5688391
>calling everything you don't like [x] marxism

>>5688436
The two aren't really contradictory. Feminists realize that there ARE biological differences, just that they're not enough to justify double standards and that there's enough variation within a sex that it usually doesn't make sense to bring them up unless talking about averages. Trans people are just an extreme case of that individual variation.

And the fact that gender identity is influenced by biological differences doesn't really prove that career choices are determined by biology. For one there may be some social component to gender identity in addition to the biological, so it's not entirely one or the other (this is the general rule for MOST things), and additionally they're really completely different things.

>>5688600
gr8 b8 m8

>>5688673
It's usually the mtfs who are said to be the crazy ones, unless you're talking about the weird tumblr ftms, but those are really better classified as non-binary.

>>5688256
Nope, ftms are attention seeking women.

>>5688889
>It's usually the mtfs who are said to be the crazy ones
Mad because people are starting to realize how bat shit ftms are?

>I wanna be pregnant!
>I wanna dress in girl clothes!
>I don't want to take male responsibilities!

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>>5688256
>FtM
>a feminist
>in women's spaces
>goes to women's college
>has exclusively pre transition female friends
>wears makeup
>dresses like a girl
>is totally, absolutely, definitely a guy

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>>5688935
Oh and I forgot

>gets pregnant
>doesn't abort it
>feels happy to carry it
>couldn't POSSIBLY be bigger guy than this

I don't get ftm's. I know one pre-hrt ftm who is very shy/submissive, carries around a stuffed animal, and loves children's books. Do not get.

>>5688911
>>I wanna be pregnant!
>>I wanna dress in girl clothes!
>>I don't want to take male responsibilities!
Again, I've never really heard ftms say that outside of tumblr (or rather, strawman arguments to characterize tumblr "ftms" who as I said before are actually nb). If anything, there seems to be a tendency of ftms to overcompensate and act more masculine then they really want to be.

>>5688935
I'm a cis guy feminist with almost exclusively female friends and would dress like a girl if it was more acceptable. Most of that stuff has little to do with gender. The only one that doesn't make sense is going to a college exclusively for women even after transitioning, since that basically means they're intentionally misgendering themselves.

>>5688297
>lol there are lots of stupid "feminists" so real feminism doesn't exist

You spend too much time here bucko.

>>5689142
>I'm a cis guy feminist
Kill yourself

>>5689174
no u

>>5689142
>cis guy feminist
I think you might be the most pathetic person on the face of this Earth

>>5689142
>I'm a cis guy feminist
I'm sorry.

>>5689174
>>5689202
>>5689208
The fact that you're quoting the "cis" part rather than just "guy feminist" implies you think it's okay for trans men to be feminists, but not cis men. Wouldn't that seem to indicate you don't think of trans men as actual men?

>>5689217
trans men aren't men, they are retarded faggots

>>5689221
>they are retarded faggots
Takes one to know one :^)

>>5689217
I just quoted it starting from "I'm", "cis" got caught in the crossfire.

>>5689221
Calling them faggots implies they ARE men, or at least not women. Generally women aren't called faggots.

>>5689217
Trans men aren't men. They're over privileged girls and products of misandrist feminism.

If a woman is deluded enough to call herself a man, then I think she's deluded enough to call herself anything.

>man
>feminist
>queen Anne
>mountain lion

Feel free to call yourself any of these, I, and most people, will just smile politely and leave you to enjoy your mental illness by yourself.

>>5689502
Trans men have existed longer than feminism has.

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>>5689142
>>5689217
You're the same radfem guy who said that antidiscirmination laws protecting lgbt were really a ploy to rape all your white women, aren't you?

What makes you think you belong in a place like this?
>>5688256
There are many people who call themselves feminists and do nothing but vilify lgbt and anyone who's different. They've collaborated with other parts of the religious right to that end and from the looks of it, libfems either don't care about what the radicals do to others or they tacitly approve.

I don't know why you'd want to be a radfem or Christian when there's large fundie wings in both of them who literally want you dead and they've worked together in recent elections.

No, but I get kind of suspicious when trans guys are REALLY into feminism/woman's rights stuff. It's kind of creepy.

In my experience a lot of trans men are pretty far on either side of the extreme; some are super misogynists and hate women, some are really supportive of feminism. It makes sense, they hear all these things about women and just think, "that's not me though" and (before realizing they're trans) either get mad at incorrect stereotypes, or think they're special snowflakes for being different.

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>>5688436
I'm always shocked to find insightful, well thought out posts on 4chan.

Doubly so for /lgbt/, so thanks for that anon.

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>>5693638
They outright said that having crippling body dysmorphia and needing meds to get by is some evil betrayal of women.

Like it or not the dysmorphia is some underlying bio condition that science traces back to the womb. There shouldn't be anything political about other people's suffering but our friendly feminists have gone again and started talking about how it's a ploy to enslave women. >>5688436 is just natsoc propaganda wrapped up prettily.

I can't believe I ever beloved in a movement that dehumanizes and vilifies others for daring to seek an end to their pain. If people being different makes them monsters in your book then maybe you shouldn't be here.

>>5693459
>You're the same radfem guy who said that antidiscirmination laws protecting lgbt were really a ploy to rape all your white women, aren't you?
No, not at all. I'm very much in favor of transgender anti-discrimination laws.

>>5693990
Does it really matter if you weren't him? One way or another, all your ideology does with anyone who doesn't fit in is use them as a scapegoat for everything that's wrong and you've done that too.

You're not a preacher so you can help others, you're just thumping your religion so you can claim moral superiority over whatever minority you've gone and turned into you boogiemen.

How fitting that a straight guy like you thinks going to lgbt sites and condemning others for needing meds makes him more righteous than all the sick freaks.

>>5694047
>How fitting that a straight guy like you
Why are you assuming that I'm straight?

>condemning others for needing meds
I'm not, though. I consider myself supportive of trans people (and not in the way TERFs and the rest of the anti-trans crowd are, you know, "we're supportive of you and that's why we won't let you transition, because we know what's best for you and enabling your delusions will only hurt you")

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>>5693889
>They outright said that having crippling body dysmorphia and needing meds to get by is some evil betrayal of women.

No they didn't. They just illustrated a couple of contradictions between popular mainstream feminist mythos and popular mainstream transgender mythos. The poster themselves didn't even inject their own opinion into the matter.

>>5694081
>why are you assuming
Mostly because >>5689142 and you're answering a reply to it.

But whatever, I'm getting a headache just by thinking of it I don't want to stick around for this argument.

>>5688889
you might as well have just said "yeah buts it's just an extreme case" in all of your replies

>>5694194
cis =/= straight

>>5688966
autism

>>5689532
That's how most normal people treat gays & pedophiles

>>5688966
It's a sexual fetish, turned emotional attatchment to the idea that they are actually male, just like the males who fetishize being female. Lol @ thinking that ftm's aren't going to have a shy/submissive personality unless they were a butch lesbian, without the fetish pre-transition

>>5694700
Right, so do you want to tell us how not finishing high lets you know more than the doctors and their consensus?

>>5689149
>no true feminists
It's nice to know that THE TRUE FEMINIST frequents this board.

>>5695749
a lot of gay ftms bottom like the girls they are. Have you ever seen Bonus Hole Boys?

Can't unsee the bio girl faces as they open up their vaginas for a dick pounding.

>>5695853
Right and that's different from femboys how? Asides from the fact one of the two has their tits from estrogen use.

Some guys are just faggots through and through

>>5695912
femboys don't have vaginas dumbass and they can't get preggers.

>inb4 T stops you from getting pregnant
not always the case

>>5688276

T H I S
H
I
S

>>5695936
They're swallowing estrogen, look like unpassing FtMs and still insist they're guys.

How are guys who take testosterone any less men than that?

Damn, there's so many unsupported conclusions and shit being tossed around in this thread. Are the ones of you who apparently don't believe FtMs are real also as skeptical/critical of MtFs? Just wondering.

>>5688966
Congratulations, you know a shy, emotionally immature person. She's probably on the autism spectrum, as are many "gender non-conforming" people.
>>5689136
This T B Q H F A M
>>5689502
>over privileged girls
It is such a privilege to be trans, yes.
>>5694700
The FtMs I know definitely aren't all "shy/submissive," nor were they all butch lesbians pre-transition. I'm not turned on in any way by the thought of myself being a man, and I lived my life as a straight woman up until my late 20s.

>>5695936
>femboys don't have vaginas dumbass
Some do though.

Feminism is an open ended idiology that has no real specific goals.

There are groups of feminisim that may or may not be trans friendly, however most the groups tend to be idotic and claim things like not real feminsim to dismiss the historical shit that has been done in the name of feminism.


Can you be a ftm and feminist? sure, but recognize that the feminism movement has a lot of valid criticisim against it from men, women, transwhat evers.

This is why people hate feminsim, because they dont recognize any criticism as valid, like their historical effect on the medical treatment of transpeople

>>5696679
You were definitely turned on by the fantasy of yourself as a man at one point, you might not even truly remember it, but something about that fantasy clicked into your feelings. All previously straight girl ftm's were. You probably romanticized WAY too much yaoi,

>>5696862
Femboys do that too. You're just giving the deranged twinks a pass for stuff that you scrutinize in ftm.

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>>5688276
Basically.

And while initially gender issues were what opened me up to feminism, the inconsistency (libfems were mostly nice, but kinda fetishizing, TERFs were...well, TERFs), condescension and being treated like a traitor in training drove me right back out.

nah cos you're still a girl at the end of the day

>>5689149
>>lol there are lots of stupid "feminists" so real feminism doesn't exist
Feminists have become about as believable as communists with their insistence that there is some REAL type of feminism that's totally fine and nice and loves everyone and totally isn't against men and trans people.

>>5695853
>a lot of gay ftms bottom

what do you expect them to do? stick their vaginas into your butthole?

>>5698178
What do you think straight ftms do?

>>5698178
>what do you expect them to do?
Get bottom surgery?

>waah it's hard
>waah it's not perfect
>waah it doesn't work exactly like I imagined

>>5698181
whats the point of using a prosthetic if one of them already has a real dick

>>5698198
Because the one that has a real dick is a bottom?

Somewhere feminism and Marxism mated and created a new religion called "Kill everything western and white"

Feminism died a long time ago.

>>5698208
well i don't see why you wouldn't in that situation.

but i don't imagine that's very common, i always assumed gay ftms would pair with tops exclusively, just because it's easier

>>5698185
So kind of you to pay for a series of surgeries that span over a year to complete and disfigure a chunk of their bodies and for you to work for them while they have to spend weeks in recovery losing income since work men's comp doesn't cover 'elective' surgery. All for a non-ejaculating, non-erectile pump up phallus with sexual stimulation only really at the base.

That is if there are no complications.

>>5698231
Your assumption is wrong. Sexuality don't hinge on what's "easier." People like what they like regardless of what's easy or difficult. And just because a trans man has a vagina doesn't mean they're okay with using it. Lots of gay FTM bottoms I know only do anal.

It's also really not that difficult or time-consuming to just put on a harness.