I believe in women's rights, I just have dysphoria that makes me feel happier as a guy and deeply uncomfortable having female sex characteristics.
This stupid argument has been debunked by tons of people for as long as "trans (corner of the) internet" has been a thing. Their posts are easily findable. Go read some existing shit and stop asking it again and again.
Mainstream ideology around trans does't really interfere with concrete feminist goals, but it does contradict a lot of feminist theory (and therefore harms abstract goals of feminism).
A lot of feminist theory revolves around the notion that female and male brains are pretty much the same, and that most of the differences between men and women are due to socialization. Trans messes this up, because most people (outside of /pol/) believe that MtFs and FtMs are born trans, not socialized to be trans (that they have a male brain in a female body or visa versa). How can this be true if there's no such thing as a male or female brain? That's where trans conflicts with feminism.
Most feminists believe that the fact that fewer women pursue careers in computer-science than men (in developed countries), and more women pursue careers as kindergarten teachers than men; is entirely due to gender norms, socialization, and institutional sexism. Trans hurts feminism, because it supports the possibility that men and women chose different careers because women are biologically inclined toward social/nurturing work and men are biologically inclined to analytical work.
>>5688436 >Most feminists believe that the fact that fewer women pursue careers in computer-science than men (in developed countries), and more women pursue careers as kindergarten teachers than men; is entirely due to gender norms, socialization, and institutional sexism. The education thing varies highly even in developed countries.
There are vastly more female engineering students in places like Canada or Sweden than in the US.
>>5688256 No, but it would be kind of stupid to associate yourselves with the anti-trans feminists (who are a minority, but get a lot of attention and like to act like they're the true to voice of feminism)
>>5688391 >calling everything you don't like [x] marxism
>>5688436 The two aren't really contradictory. Feminists realize that there ARE biological differences, just that they're not enough to justify double standards and that there's enough variation within a sex that it usually doesn't make sense to bring them up unless talking about averages. Trans people are just an extreme case of that individual variation.
And the fact that gender identity is influenced by biological differences doesn't really prove that career choices are determined by biology. For one there may be some social component to gender identity in addition to the biological, so it's not entirely one or the other (this is the general rule for MOST things), and additionally they're really completely different things.
>>5688911 >>I wanna be pregnant! >>I wanna dress in girl clothes! >>I don't want to take male responsibilities! Again, I've never really heard ftms say that outside of tumblr (or rather, strawman arguments to characterize tumblr "ftms" who as I said before are actually nb). If anything, there seems to be a tendency of ftms to overcompensate and act more masculine then they really want to be.
>>5688935 I'm a cis guy feminist with almost exclusively female friends and would dress like a girl if it was more acceptable. Most of that stuff has little to do with gender. The only one that doesn't make sense is going to a college exclusively for women even after transitioning, since that basically means they're intentionally misgendering themselves.
>>5689174 >>5689202 >>5689208 The fact that you're quoting the "cis" part rather than just "guy feminist" implies you think it's okay for trans men to be feminists, but not cis men. Wouldn't that seem to indicate you don't think of trans men as actual men?
>>5689142 >>5689217 You're the same radfem guy who said that antidiscirmination laws protecting lgbt were really a ploy to rape all your white women, aren't you?
What makes you think you belong in a place like this? >>5688256 There are many people who call themselves feminists and do nothing but vilify lgbt and anyone who's different. They've collaborated with other parts of the religious right to that end and from the looks of it, libfems either don't care about what the radicals do to others or they tacitly approve.
I don't know why you'd want to be a radfem or Christian when there's large fundie wings in both of them who literally want you dead and they've worked together in recent elections.
No, but I get kind of suspicious when trans guys are REALLY into feminism/woman's rights stuff. It's kind of creepy.
In my experience a lot of trans men are pretty far on either side of the extreme; some are super misogynists and hate women, some are really supportive of feminism. It makes sense, they hear all these things about women and just think, "that's not me though" and (before realizing they're trans) either get mad at incorrect stereotypes, or think they're special snowflakes for being different.
>>5693638 They outright said that having crippling body dysmorphia and needing meds to get by is some evil betrayal of women.
Like it or not the dysmorphia is some underlying bio condition that science traces back to the womb. There shouldn't be anything political about other people's suffering but our friendly feminists have gone again and started talking about how it's a ploy to enslave women. >>5688436 is just natsoc propaganda wrapped up prettily.
I can't believe I ever beloved in a movement that dehumanizes and vilifies others for daring to seek an end to their pain. If people being different makes them monsters in your book then maybe you shouldn't be here.
>>5693459 >You're the same radfem guy who said that antidiscirmination laws protecting lgbt were really a ploy to rape all your white women, aren't you? No, not at all. I'm very much in favor of transgender anti-discrimination laws.
>>5693990 Does it really matter if you weren't him? One way or another, all your ideology does with anyone who doesn't fit in is use them as a scapegoat for everything that's wrong and you've done that too.
You're not a preacher so you can help others, you're just thumping your religion so you can claim moral superiority over whatever minority you've gone and turned into you boogiemen.
How fitting that a straight guy like you thinks going to lgbt sites and condemning others for needing meds makes him more righteous than all the sick freaks.
>>5694047 >How fitting that a straight guy like you Why are you assuming that I'm straight?
>condemning others for needing meds I'm not, though. I consider myself supportive of trans people (and not in the way TERFs and the rest of the anti-trans crowd are, you know, "we're supportive of you and that's why we won't let you transition, because we know what's best for you and enabling your delusions will only hurt you")
>>5693889 >They outright said that having crippling body dysmorphia and needing meds to get by is some evil betrayal of women.
No they didn't. They just illustrated a couple of contradictions between popular mainstream feminist mythos and popular mainstream transgender mythos. The poster themselves didn't even inject their own opinion into the matter.
>>5688966 It's a sexual fetish, turned emotional attatchment to the idea that they are actually male, just like the males who fetishize being female. Lol @ thinking that ftm's aren't going to have a shy/submissive personality unless they were a butch lesbian, without the fetish pre-transition
Damn, there's so many unsupported conclusions and shit being tossed around in this thread. Are the ones of you who apparently don't believe FtMs are real also as skeptical/critical of MtFs? Just wondering.
>>5688966 Congratulations, you know a shy, emotionally immature person. She's probably on the autism spectrum, as are many "gender non-conforming" people. >>5689136 This T B Q H F A M >>5689502 >over privileged girls It is such a privilege to be trans, yes. >>5694700 The FtMs I know definitely aren't all "shy/submissive," nor were they all butch lesbians pre-transition. I'm not turned on in any way by the thought of myself being a man, and I lived my life as a straight woman up until my late 20s.
Feminism is an open ended idiology that has no real specific goals.
There are groups of feminisim that may or may not be trans friendly, however most the groups tend to be idotic and claim things like not real feminsim to dismiss the historical shit that has been done in the name of feminism.
Can you be a ftm and feminist? sure, but recognize that the feminism movement has a lot of valid criticisim against it from men, women, transwhat evers.
This is why people hate feminsim, because they dont recognize any criticism as valid, like their historical effect on the medical treatment of transpeople
>>5696679 You were definitely turned on by the fantasy of yourself as a man at one point, you might not even truly remember it, but something about that fantasy clicked into your feelings. All previously straight girl ftm's were. You probably romanticized WAY too much yaoi,
And while initially gender issues were what opened me up to feminism, the inconsistency (libfems were mostly nice, but kinda fetishizing, TERFs were...well, TERFs), condescension and being treated like a traitor in training drove me right back out.
>>5689149 >>lol there are lots of stupid "feminists" so real feminism doesn't exist Feminists have become about as believable as communists with their insistence that there is some REAL type of feminism that's totally fine and nice and loves everyone and totally isn't against men and trans people.
>>5698185 So kind of you to pay for a series of surgeries that span over a year to complete and disfigure a chunk of their bodies and for you to work for them while they have to spend weeks in recovery losing income since work men's comp doesn't cover 'elective' surgery. All for a non-ejaculating, non-erectile pump up phallus with sexual stimulation only really at the base.
>>5698231 Your assumption is wrong. Sexuality don't hinge on what's "easier." People like what they like regardless of what's easy or difficult. And just because a trans man has a vagina doesn't mean they're okay with using it. Lots of gay FTM bottoms I know only do anal.
It's also really not that difficult or time-consuming to just put on a harness.
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