Why is femininity so humiliating for a guy to engage in? I've heard people try to rationalize it as just being due to the incongruity of someone of one sex looking like or behaving as the opposite sex, but I don't think that's the real explanation since the phenomenon is a one way street: feminization of males is humiliating while masculinization of females isn't.
The answer is simply that either gender going into the role of the other was a one point considered very humiliating and in bad taste. Women fought for decades to engage in masculine behavior without stigma so that now most women feel no pressure to feminine. Men never fought for the right to be feminine and have simply retained their ancient duty.
Men have a patriarchal structure inherent to their socialization where the weakest or most diminutive members are regarded as having the least status. After men are organized in this fashion women and children typically follow. Women can bypass this to a degree by attaching themselves to a higher status male, though once that male is gone their status usually reverts.
Masculine females can ascend this rudimentary ladder by dominating other males. Males who emasculate themselves slide down the ladder in social standing. The idea of humiliation stems from men being the dominant force, thus dictating the norms for both men and their dependent women and children.
Girls will dress a guy up in a dress, put makeup on him, and they all have a good time. It's some dude that's going to call him a faggot and make him look like an idiot. It's all about size and strength and confidence. It doesn't even particularly concern genitals, except that due to mammalian sexual dimorphism human men are typically larger than human females.
>being a woman is worse than being a man
See, I don't see it that way at all. In my opinion, the reason femininity is humiliating when males do it is simply because it looks ridiculous. Men don't fit into dainty clothes, their body shape, body and facial hair, and muscles don't look right in it. Feminine movements don't look right with the male frame either. To have the right flow, they need to have a feminine body shape. To me, it seems like it's more of a "haha, you'll never be small, refined and pretty like a woman you damn giant monster".
Your thinking is one sided.
Both genders set up hierarchies based on their adherence to their idealized gender form. A masculine women is look at by other women as lowly and a feminine man is viewed by men to be lowly.
Your thinking also doesn't make sense since traditional societies would view very feminine women much higher than moderately effeminate males.
The idea that there is one hierarchical gradient from feminine to masculine simply doesn't account for social realtiy.
I guess it's cause when women wear makeup and dress in cute ways people think of them like pets that need to be taken care of and protected. So when a guy does it it's demeaning since he's giving up his independence and strength.
We humans are creatures very focused on the physical; physical expression is reality, anything else is "a fabrication of the mind", or so they say.
The male body is great at the manipulation of the physical due to its physical strength. A female body can incubate and birth more humans.
When a female wants to do the "man" thing it's cool because they're helping out with stuff that's relevant to the physical. A male however doesn't have a womb; and when it they want to do the "girl" thing they're "not helping" according to this physical based focus, and the behavior is shamed to prevent any possible survival snafus or whatever they feared in girly boys.
Sure, but that could easily be explained as a masculine woman not fitting the female reproductive strategy. If females are operating in the interest of males in a traditional patriarchal arrangement then females with less sexual attractiveness are going to be lower status. This is independent of the status males attribute to them in the nonsexual context for being more masculine. This is of course a matter of strategies, and doesn't preclude the possibility of enhanced masculinity leading to success in reproduction as an alternative strategy.
Men would view very feminine ( code for beautiful in most cases for historical documents I would say ) women as being more valuable than middle or low status males because they were potential mates. If the king or alpha male mates with a woman or takes her as a wife, the males under him have to respect her because she becomes an extension of that male - a part of his sphere of influence if you will.
>simply because it looks ridiculous
Pretty much this. People without weird fetishes don't want to see hairy, buff men in dresses. There's really not too many "masculine" clothes. Anyone looks fine in a shirt and jeans.
>Sure, but that could easily be explained as a masculine woman not fitting the female reproductive strategy
Trying to explain complex social concepts with simple evo-psyche almost always ends in failure.
>Sure, but that could easily be explained as a masculine woman not fitting the female reproductive strategy
So other women are removing themselves from being competition. They should encourage this behavior if they're approaching it from a purely selfish perspective.
You still fail to explain why a women being masculine and acting like a man doesn't accrue them higher social status. You're making a bunch of weird post-hoc justifications.
this mentality has been slowly but surely changing. Alot of males crossdress for comedy like British comedy, and some crossdress for fun like the hipsters you'll see in NY, others for their fetish.
Drag Queen events like RuPaul's Drag Race have applauded men who could dance as seductively/gracefully as a woman could and there are currently companies out right now who sell dresses and feminine lingerie for men.
Reminds me of the time when Kurt Cobain iconically put on a black dress and his female friend described him as beautiful. Shit, that look made the cut in Gus Van Sant's loosely adapted biopic of Cobain.
So femininity for men is slowly but surely changing into something that's acceptable.
What I mean to say is men have two different ladders. One for men, which grades them based off their strength, confidence, or competitiveness - another for women and children in terms of their beauty, reproductive potential, supportiveness etc.
A woman can effectively opt out of the second definition by being very masculine and asserting herself in the first. This is where those "one of the guys" type girls come from. They aren't really viewed as relationship partners or sex objects ( though men being fairly opportunistic about sex it could still happen ) but rather as peers, dependent on their overall abilities.
If you change your POV to the woman POV though ( I'm speaking as a man ) then your most attractive and valuable qualities are your attractiveness etc. Women who are masculine don't fit your primary pecking order which is established by sexual attractiveness, as the result of that being your primary means of survival. ( in a traditional society ) There could be a sort of womanly equivalent of the masculine woman on the female side, such as your gay friend or effeminate friend - a guy who is less masculine and more feminine, one who poses little reproductive competition and isn't typically regarded as a potential reproductive partner.
It's all very generalist anyway.
>What I mean to say is men have two different ladders
Which is all I asserted from the beginning
>A woman can effectively opt out of the second definition by being very masculine and asserting herself in the first. This is where those "one of the guys" type girls come from.
See I think you make a historical error there. A masculine women being masculine would have been just as frowned upon as a feminine male by both genders. There would have been absolutely no possible way for a women to be "one of the guys". Any sliding downward on any of the gender ladders would mean a lowering of the social standing. Which seems to be both more correct and more symmetrical/elegant/simple.
In fact in your explanation it almost seems like women have the advantage since they could either be masculine or feminine and still attain higher social standing while men are forced into one path.
>In fact in your explanation it almost seems like women have the advantage since they could either be masculine or feminine and still attain higher social standing while men are forced into one path
For this day and age? Bingo.
I think that would largely depend on the exact point in time you're looking at, and the culture. For sure there are some pretty tragic examples of women being abused for expressing themselves in a masculine fashion. I'm thinking here of Joan of Arc as probably one of the most well known figures occupying this space. By French standards her crossdressing and doing masculine things was accepted and elevated to the point of heroism, whereas by English standards it was deemed heresy worthy of death.
I do think women have advantages that men don't have in the patriarchal format. That's why I think even butch chicks typically will have more power outed than gay men. I could be wrong.
>I think that would largely depend on the exact point in time you're looking at, and the culture
If we're talking about patriarchal organic culture then we simply can look at those traditional cultures before feminism. Every society and every period that fits with that definition I know of would deeply shame masculine women. The idea that a normal, average women could achieve higher social status by simply acting masculine would have been completely beyond the pale in the minds of traditional society.
>I'm thinking here of Joan of Arc
Think of something else. The Joan of Arc myth is one of the most convoluted and misunderstood myths in history.
>By French standards her crossdressing and doing masculine things was accepted and elevated to the point of heroism, whereas by English standards it was deemed heresy worthy of death.
That's really not true. Neither had anything to do with cultural standards, or religion for that matter, it was all politics and war.
Hm. Without trying to move the goalposts, I wonder how much of this is related to socioeconomic positioning. Things like women working are considered a feminist achievement, but clearly in the lower class and impoverished areas women were working all the time throughout history. At the lowest level there isn't a lot of risk to the social order by women asserting themselves more actively. This compared to say a more high profile relationship. It could be there is some kind of cutoff where people stop caring at all about masculinity/femininity held just due to someone's irrelevance.
Maybe this is why I'm a sissy-faggot-bisexual-tranny thing. I was never a feminine kind, and still not very feminine now, but my camp counselor forced me to wear a dress in front of all the boys for 3 hours, as punishment for breaking a trophy. I was about 7 years old.
Sometimes I feel like I fetishize femininity so much. It's so embarrassing. If it wasn't so embarrassing, I don't really think this fetish would interest me, but there's nothing I can really do to eliminate the shame because it's pretty deep inside of me.
Have ya noticed femaleness is an insult?
"Ya throw like a girl"
"Stop crying ya fucking woman"
"Hit me back pussy"
"You gossip like a bitch"
"You dress like an effeminate queer"
From day one females are told they are lesser than in nearly every freaking sphere of life, so much that judge their masculinity not by having sperm, but by how UNLIKE women they are while also exploiting the living fuck out of women.... Then the few men who pretend to be women judge their transition from how well they embrace the gender roles that oppress women, telling real women their biology isn't actually a thing...
>my camp counselor forced me to wear a dress in front of all the boys for 3 hours, as punishment for breaking a trophy. I was about 7 years old.
This kind of makes me want to conduct a formal study where 7 year old males are forced to dress up as female and made to undergo the humiliation of going to school that way in front of their friends, after which they're left to live out their lives without interference so we can check back when they reach adulthood to see how many of them ended up as trannies.
because girls are weaker than men and cry more than men due to how they are biologically constructed and their estrogen levels respectively
pussy is an insult, and so is calling someone a dick.
bitch is reducing someone to less than human. i don't think people like being called pigs, either.
that seems more like queer bashing than women bashing.
>Things like women working are considered a feminist achievement, but clearly in the lower class and impoverished areas women were working all the time throughout history
You can't analyze the traditional after the steam engine. Industrialization changed EVERYTHING about the social order to the point where every action after it is a reaction to it.
First off in traditional society all women did essentially the same job as the man but in a different capacity. Even in the higher castes, craftsmen, merchant, warrior, noble, women would be very involved in her husband's work.
So the idea that in higher classes women working was considered bad wouldn't make any sense since depending on your perspective none of the upper class worked or they did the same work as their husbands.
It was only in the World Wars period where industrialization and modernization became so advanced that only the husband's labor was required and the women's labor was almost pointless. Then women started clamoring for the ability to gain their own separate jobs once again.
Keep in mind that one of the big effects of Industrialization was in separating men and women's labor from one another. Where before they would have been working in the same place for complementary purposes (for example: men reap the wheat while the women gather them into sheaves) now they go off to completely separate locations to do completely incongruent jobs
I mean, it's a really interesting fetish, but an unfortunate one when I really think about it.
I can still fear that fear and the breaking of my soul in that situation, but it's that deep-rooted fear that fuels my arousal. By trying to prove to the world that I'm not a sissy, I'm slowly becoming more of a sissy.
I know other people didn't have an experience like mine when developing the fetish, but it really can't be a coincidence in my case. Can't really do anything about it now though.
Well, we're carrying the same instincts as we were back then. I don't think we've necessarily evolved in time with our technological advances. While the industrial revolution and the specialization of workers into specific tasks has changed how we express these themes, I think the themes are still largely the same.
It could be that masculine women or women succeeding in male roles really is a fairly new development. I don't think it is, but I don't have any compelling evidence that it isn't. Technology has certainly skewed things though, so it all becomes muddied.
For example, we've increased the wages and positions available to women. At the same time, our technological developments in the realm of sport haven't done much to exceed the natural limits of the human body. By maximizing returns on diet, supplement, and exercise we can get peak performance from men and women in professional sports - which comes with a disparity. Prior to these advances in science and technology the playing field would be slanted towards men, but theoretically things like food availability or medical care were more randomized.
Those aren't insults to women, no man is going to insult a woman for being feminine, femininity is only an insult when used against males, who unlike women are forced into following a very strict gender role.
>From day one females are told they are lesser than in nearly every freaking sphere of life
what a load of shit. males are treated as if they are worthless in society. Women are treated like they matter and are desired, whereas males are expendable.
>Then the few men who pretend to be women judge their transition from how well they embrace the gender roles that oppress women, telling real women their biology isn't actually a thing...
I'm not even going to dignify this hot garbage a response
Stop crying ya fucking woman.
Masculinity is valued and femininity isn't. Especially in the achievement oriented society we live in today.
Femininity is still and receptive whereas masculinity is forward moving and imposing. This is often associated with achievement and being able to compete and make things happen. When men engage in femininity, it threatens their sense of capability and ability to progress.
You act like women don't have ears. And you act like women don't feel extreme disappointment when they want to do something and are told that they can't. It's terrible how self-centered you are.
When a man or a woman crossdresses, ideally you shouldn't see anything unusual about it. For instance, a man wearing a Vneck or a woman wearing a pair of slacks. You'll notice that you actually already associate those things with those genders. It's acceptable.
When a man or woman crossdresses in an obvious way, there's a difference. Men crossdress for comedy - drag queens or just plain to have fun like when Jimmy Fallon gets people like Channing Tatum to put on wigs and makeup and have a hilarious time, or like in that doritos commercial. Their dress is obviously feminine, but they prominently display their masculine traits and wear the clothes awkwardly and without grace, playing up the unexpectedness and contrast. Women crossdress for sex appeal - reducing the overall size of the costume to reveal more skin, having perfect makeup and hair despite dressing as a male, etc. Their dress is obviously masculine, but it only serves to draw attention to their femininity.
I'm not sure how to crossdress for sex appeal as a man, and I'm also not sure how to crossdress for comedy as a woman. It's just not sexy and it's just not funny. Something something culture blah blah blah.
I hate women who act too feminine.
I think it's the ditzy, I'm stupid, I just wanna suck cock lol be a slut do what you want, may I have a mocha frappuchino with no whip, I'm vegan, and a dash of nutmeg wait no lemme instagram this, bullshit that girly girls seem to have nowadays.
That post believes that every insult to femininity is solely an insult to men. Who is that stupid? It's like calling someone a faggot- not jokingly, but with the intention of hurting them, calling them a disgusting faggot. I can tell you not to be offended because I'm not insulting gay men, I'm just insulting this one individual by calling him a disgusting gay man.
>When are women told they can't do something?
It's crazy. It's like you've never been a woman or something.
Yes, people generally don't like being called something they're not. Women don't particularly care for being called butch or dykes a lot of the time, especially if they're not, you know, gay.
>It's crazy. It's like you've never been a woman or something.
I've been a woman my entire fucking life, actually.
Men toughen one another up to make themselves as a group stronger. This is why they insult each other non-stop and don't take offense. To take offense is weakness. So is being overly assertive. They attempt to strike a balance.
It's why men orient themselves towards both competitive and cooperative games that have a measuring goal in mind.
Its in men's nature and has plenty of good and bad aspects.
Femininity is not tough. So its shunned.
>the reason femininity is humiliating when males do it is simply because it looks ridiculous
right, and the anon was explaining why people think it looks rediculous. all this "right" and "not right" pairings youre making are cultural. and the effects are subliminal, cause surprise most of our brain processing isnt conscious. subliminal thoughts are "feelings", and we are feeling creatures that make decisions based off of them
It's not cultural
Men's frames look bad in femmy stuff. The hairiness, the muscles, the V shape. Of course, there are some exceptions, but typically. A masculine man is always going to look stupid wearing dainty jewelry and frilly skirts and tops. It's reality.