I think gender on the whole is really dumb. Creating mandatory social roles for people based on their biology is unfair for one and I don't think it's good for anyone. When people say toxic masculinity they don't mean it's toxic for the people around them, what they really mean is that those ideologies are like brain poison and they kill a part of the man's soul in a way by disconnecting them from their emotions and ability to connect with others.
>>5567452 ugh I'm a fucking transgirl and even I think the idea of toxic masculinity is dumb, it also completely ignores the fact that transboys and masculine girls exist
there's nothing wrong with people who don't conform to gender roles, but there's nothing wrong with people who do either. there's nothing inherently bad about masculine traits, just like there's nothing inherently bad about feminine traits. different people have different personality types, and that's okay. just don't try to force other people to act the same way as you, or the way you think people of their sex/gender should act.
>>5557270 I've beat the shit out of actual straight people for acting too straight, and attempted to kill two or three. I don't want to hear some Starbucks sipping motherfuckers try to dank a meaningless meme. Especially not when they're actually just straight cis trolls who sip Starbucks and try to dank memes.
>>5568643 Yeah, I was gonna say that at least SJWs haven't tried to legally restrict our rights... but then I remembered that radical feminists actually support anti-trans legislation right alongside conservatives
>>5568632 >[toxic masculinity] also completely ignores the fact that transboys and masculine girls exist How exactly? Toxic masculinity doesn't say you can't be AFAB and masculine, it's more about society's attitudes towards masculinity.
>>5570952 Because it still says there's a problem with masculine behaviors in general. I've never been a masculine person at all, even back when I still identified as male, but that's a ridiculous attitude to take. I know transmen and masculine cis women and masculine cis men, and masculinity has been as natural for them as femininity has been for me.
The only problem with masculine traits is that men are unfairly socially pressured to have those traits, just like the only problem with feminine traits is that women are unfairly socially pressured to have them. It's not the attitudes themselves that are the problem, or even their (IMO fairly arbitrary) association with a specific sex/gender, but the idea that everyone within that sex/gender needs to conform to them.
And no, 'toxic masculinity' doesn't just refers to the social pressure for men to display masculine traits. If it did, how come no one ever talks about 'toxic femininity', even though the social pressure for women to display feminine traits is just as strong and potentially harmful?
>>5570968 >th-they're not real feminists! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
>>5568637 Wow thats the edgiest thing I think I've ever heard. Good job man! Keep it up maybe they'll throw you in prison and you can try to kill all the cis men in there before they rape your asshole inside out.
>>5571309 >Because it still says there's a problem with masculine behaviors in general. I've never been a masculine person at all, even back when I still identified as male, but that's a ridiculous attitude to take. I know transmen and masculine cis women and masculine cis men, and masculinity has been as natural for them as femininity has been for me. Sure, that's how some people interpret toxic masculinity. The "anti-masculinity" attitude seems to be pretty common in the social justice community. But that's not the only definition of toxic masculinity that's used, others use it to refer to the idea that to be masculine you must be aggressive, competitive, sometimes even violent, and the idea that men who fail to meet the standards of masculinity deserve to be shamed.
>If it did, how come no one ever talks about 'toxic femininity', even though the social pressure for women to display feminine traits is just as strong and potentially harmful? I think to a large extent it's because that was addressed before the term "toxic masculinity" arose. As I understand it, the idea that women are forced into restrictive gender roles is one of the main focuses of 2nd wave radical feminism. Toxic masculinity seems to be mainly a third wave notion explaining how restrictive gender roles also harm men. Though calling it toxic masculinity may not be the best term, because as you point it it makes it sound like the problem is with masculinity itself.
>>5571309 >th-they're not real feminists! I didn't exactly say that. No true Scotsman arguments aren't even really applicable to feminism, since there's so many different branches of it. I merely meant that their attitudes differ strongly from other branches of feminism, even some forms of radical feminism.
>>5571369 >The "anti-masculinity" attitude seems to be pretty common in the social justice community Then you see my problem with the term and the way it's used, and more broadly with SJWs in general.
>others use it to refer to the idea that to be masculine you must be aggressive, competitive, sometimes even violent Even those traits aren't inherently bad. Yes, it would be bad if everyone was hyper-aggressive and hyper-competitive all the time. But society needs some aggressive and competitive people in order to function. Not to a psychopathic degree, obviously. But we would never have advanced as much as we have without ambitious, competitive, innovative risk-takers to drive progress. I'm one of the most laid back, pacifistic, "live and let live" people you'll ever meet (except maybe when it comes to internet arguments), and even I can admit that.
>>5571470 >Even those traits aren't inherently bad. Yes, it would be bad if everyone was hyper-aggressive and hyper-competitive all the time Yeah, I didn't say those TRAITS are bad, it's more the idea that they're pushed on people - and some end up thinking pointless violence is a GOOD thing, rather than being able and willing to use it when and only when it's necessary.
>>5571314 You try to meme a dank about your Nazis and your trolling every day, so why aren't you afraid of going to prison? Don't you think you're projecting a little?
Oh, but you might say something like, "Yeah, but they'll never catch me, 7 proxies muhfucka!" Well, I did this shit and got away with it, so maybe that just means I've braver than you. Why don't you try to make some of your dank-a-memes a reality? Why don't you go attack a gay person, instead of worshipping pies and Morgan Freeman's voice and Japanese hentais in Nazi outfits? You're not making your Hitler proud, or your Jesus Christ.
>>5571485 >and some end up thinking pointless violence is a GOOD thing, rather than being able and willing to use it when and only when it's necessary Yes, some. A fairly small subset of the population, at that. There will always be a few people like that, regardless of gender roles. Some people are just naturally inclined to violence, some have impulse control disorders and/or an innate lack of empathy, some were just raised in shitty environments. Blaming the masculine gender role (which also emphasizes restraint and control of one's emotions) for violence seems rather baseless to me.
>>5571570 Yeah I'm not saying the GENDER ROLE is the problem, it's the harmful way that some people seem to regard it. And it's different from lacking impulse control, it's impressionable people who get the idea that being violent and aggressive, on its own, is something to aspire to. It's the idea of the masculine gender role being taught WITHOUT including the parts about restraint and control.
>>5571841 Alright, I'm sure that's a legitimate problem in some cases, but I don't think it's as common or as pervasive as you think. And 'toxic masculinity' is a piss poor way to describe it at any rate.
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