As a rule of thumb, any civ not tainted by the Abrahamic religions. I would imagine at the rate we're shedding Christianity at the moment, our own could be the most tolerant in time, as long as we repel the tide of shitskin durka mohammedans who would kill us all and drag us back into the middle ages. /polgbt/ for life
>>5534782 Yep, but this godless society is kinda depressing desu, and lgbt is not openly accepted in the collective unconscious, it's just tolerated. It's not like ancient times where having orgies with handsome young guys was absolutely fine and encouraged by the status quo, and having male lovers was as normal as having female lovers, today you're looked upon even if you want to keep a moderated conservatist lgbt relationship.
>>5534756 Most religions were indifferent to homosexuality before judaism started to spread its monotheistic squams, except if you were a women or a male important to the clan, because you had to breed, but nobody cared if you were gay on the side.
>>5534756 Probably the american natives, many tribes here on south america regarded gay and trans people as special, so many ended up as leaders and spiritual guides (which in some cases were even more important than the chieftains). Being able to "tame" and take for himself one of those individuals was considered a great achievement.
Y'all are saying it's only Abraham's fault, but it's not as if any eastern religions really celebrated homosexuality as much as they were indifferent to it, usually leaning towards negative. And besides, conformity to expectations of lifestyle were more strong in most of these societies than any religious doctrine. Sure, no one might care if you go bum your m8 on the side, but in terms of contemporary ideas of LGBT relationships conforming to the same societal roles as heterosexual ones, you would, arguably, be MORE of a social pariah than today in the west.
>>5535036 Important. Confucianism emphasized family structure and obligations, especially the patriarchal role. Being gay rather than starting a family, which is serving your family in a way, was and definitely is still a taboo in East Asian cultures.
>>5535036 Most didn't give a fuck, on the greek mythology most gods were pansexual, on the chinese culture there were male "relationships" (on their weird way) on the american native culture it was either indifferent or worshiped, so no it wasn't negative.
And still you'd only get more shit thrown at you for it on most of the ancient non-abrahamic societies because on abrahamic societies you'd get fucking killed.
>>5535036 Being the alt-right trans noted above, I am completely fine with the notion of being considered a different social class. The problem of course is that to do so also allows one to be considered lesser, which isn't as nice. But this is the way I see it. The life experiences of trans women and cis women will always be intrinsically different. I know other trans women want to pass, go stealth and be considered ordinary women, and if they can do that they can go for it, but it hurts people like me when our trans-ness is called into question simply because we wish to acknowledge in how we live that transitioning doesn't make you cis, it entails its own experiences, and would be better considered different. I personally love the example set by south asian countries recently acknowledging the long-established class of Hijra as a legal third gender. That legal codification is really important IMO, even if Hijra are still socially stigmatized, forced into poverty and prostitution and treated like shit. I was born in a physically male body. I don't want to be a cis man. I am transitioning, but I don't want to become invisible or only be considered human if I can pull off being a cis woman. Growing up male gave me a fundamentally different life experience to them and I don't see why I should be considered sub-human and with less dignity for being openly trans.
TL;DR nonbinary isn't just for entitled tumblrina special snowflakes who just buy clothes from the other side of the store and insist everyone use their personal pronouns. nonbinary is also a life lease for dysphoric, physically transitioning hons-in-denial.
>>5535063 >Growing up male gave me a fundamentally different life experience to them and I don't see why I should be considered sub-human and with less dignity for being openly Yeah, but passing makes things convenient for most people. Like, I'm different from being raised male, but as far as I can tell that's just manifested itself as doing STEM instead of fashion. >nonbinary isn't just for entitled tumblrina special snowflakes who just buy clothes from the other side of the store and insist everyone use their personal pronouns. true.
>>5535081 Passing when you can pass might be more convenient, but trying to pass when you can't gets looks of disdain and people remarking on how delusional you are and how you shouldn't be trying to deceive people into thinking you're a woman. Being able to openly present as neither would be so much more convenient. Instead of having to explain to every person you meet who asks "so what ARE you?", it would be nice if people could take one look at me and note me as Hijra, not bother me and get on with their lives.
>>5535115 >but trying to pass when you can't gets looks of disdain and people remarking on how delusional you are and how you shouldn't be trying to deceive people into thinking you're a woman. >Being able to openly present as neither would be so much more convenient. yeah, true. I guess I was just saying that "passing" is the way for us to fit in in this society. Although I agree that it would be nice to have options.
>>5535115 You can't instantly change culture. It's like beer, it needs time after the ingredients are added before you can taste them. Pushing for transgender acceptance slowly makes it accepted. As people become used to it and understanding of trans issues, at least on some form, become more widespread, trans people will become normal. Just like you don't really notice a ugly person unless they're extremley offputting, and that's almost always because of smells/behavior than looks. There will be bigots that hate trans people, but they will be outliers. Just like violent racists and fundementalist christian activists.
>>5535063 >That legal codification is really important IMO, even if Hijra are still socially stigmatized, forced into poverty and prostitution and treated like shit. They're stigmatized and forced into poverty and prostitution due precisely to their legal status as lesser citizens. It's why many come to Western nations to be considered men and women legally (and in many places socially if they pass well).
>I don't want to be a cis man. I am transitioning, but I don't want to become invisible or only be considered human if I can pull off being a cis woman. You don't have to be a cis woman to be a woman. Legal mandates for trans people to relegate themselves to a third gender against their will is not going to fix bigotry, and it won't make people accept you more. It will merely justify bigotry on a legal level in the same way that Russia's anti-homosexual laws justify the public's preconception that gay people are inherently immoral and deserving of ridicule/abuse. I don't think that third-gender identification is bad, in fact I think it should be added for those who don't fall into the binary, but mandating it for everyone who isn't cis just legislates all trans people into compulsory underclass status.
>Growing up male gave me a fundamentally different life experience to them and I don't see why I should be considered sub-human and with less dignity for being openly trans. You shouldn't. That's the point.
>>5536737 Prior to being able to legally identify as third gender, trans indians could identify as the gender opposite to that assigned at birth. discrimination against them was a cultural carryover from the only legal discrimination to be enacted by them by us brits. there's a big difference between the law permitting you to identify as neither male nor female, and the law (that brits enacted) criminalising them off the bat.
>Legal mandates for trans people to relegate themselves to a third gender against their will
as with india, why if there were a legal allowance for identifying as third gender would existing allowances to identify as the opposite gender be repealed? nothing is legally stopping people identifying as the opposite gender if they want to do so, i'm only suggesting third gender as an option for those who would choose such of their own free will.
>I don't think that third-gender identification is bad, in fact I think it should be added for those who don't fall into the binary, but mandating it for everyone who isn't cis just legislates all trans people into compulsory underclass status.
and now i've read that i can see we clearly agree, so where did you get the idea that i was advocating all trans people be forced to identify as third gender only?
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