/g/ here. Why are so many mtf trannies programmers? Is it just that you basically need to have the mental capacity of a male to get into programming so that the only female programmers you ever see are just the trannies by default?
>A lot of MTFs are shut-ins.
>Shut-ins spend a lot of time on computers.
>Realising they need a career at some point, they choose the only thing that's always been there for them: computers, whether IT or programming.
It has nothing to do with them being trans and everything to do with how much time they've spent of their life on the computer.
>I don't think there's a difference between the mental capacity of a male or female body
How do you explain the extreme lack of women employed in technical jobs?
Nah. You're not really considering the fact transgender people have experiences both as their sex and as a transgender person.
ftm scem major from the south and it took years before I realized I was allowed to go into scem fields. I literally had to wean myself from 'easy' sciences up to what I really wanted to go into. For all the 'female empowerment' shit felt really shallow and forced. Like it was something everyone says but most people don't really believe.
I can't speak for mtfs or cis dudes but same thing with boys and arts or nurturing fields. All the people telling you you can do whatever sounds like bs. To go against the grain you need confidence and strength 95% of kids dont have, let alone transgender kids who feel like they're fucked up and dont even know why.
Plus SCEM is safe for weird people and introverts. Minimal on socialization, and when you do socialize it's usually with the same people or at least the same kind of people. Which as a transgender person- ESPECIALLY someone who might not pass- is really appealing. Not to mention you have quantifiable evidence of your abilities so you don't have to sell yourself the same way someone in advertising would. And its harder to discriminate against you when your qualifications are right there in numbers and publishings.
tl;dr trans life is fucking brutal and programming is safer than the majority of other professions on multiple levels
There just has to be some sort of difference between the average male brain and the average female brain. I have no evidence and the "evidence" available for us right now is awful, but some day we will find out that there are indeed different neurological differences between people of different wthnicity and gender.
No idea, although I know lots of cis female programmers (mostly through CS department). I actually don't know if there are any trans people in our department besides me (still fulltime boymode), if they are they either pass really well or are still closeted boymode like myself.
Even as someone who has a strong distaste for the company of women, that's not how fucking brains work. No one would even pretend to say that's how intelligence works.
Look at your own image. Are you implying elephants are smarter than chimpanzees?
There definitely are differences between the average male brain and the average female brain, this is well studied. There's huge deviation within individuals as to how much various structures and functions happen to match the male or female averages, however, to the point any randomly selected brain is likely to be 'intersex' in that there will be some male typical and some female typical traits. Exactly what it is that makes specific people trans hasn't been worked out well; there is some evidence that trans brains tend to be more like the identified sex than the birth sex, maybe, but it's not clear exactly how the various things come together to produce the symptoms of trans-ness.
Elephants are pretty fucking smart, I don't know how you would objectively decide if they or chimpanzees are smarter but they're definitely some of the most intelligent mammals.
I was originally going to get into programming but I got told out of it by my parents, who said there would be no market by 2010 and said my job market would be outsourced to india
Now I basically hate myself for listening to them, I could be fucking making 60k a year and know multiple pc languages and not just bits of java and ruby
I surely can't answer you that question because not even scientists found out an answer yet.
We have a huge offer here for women, trying to convince them to study in the STEM education grouping. We have so called Girl's Days where girls can do an internship in male-dominated technical jobs.
I work as a trainee in a company for information technology. In my class, there's exactly 1 woman (besides me but im ftm.) out of 23 students. I guess there's no huge difference in the other classes.
I suggest the problem (yeah here they call it a problem) is a society thing, telling girls have to love the pink princess stuff and boys the blue builder stuff.
Probably has something to do with the reason why so many MtFs do prostitution and the reason why so many cis people who'd have trouble getting a normal job for different reasons go into programming.
MTF here. As a guy, I was expected to do a lot of hard work, and it has ALWAYS been on me to do the hardest work, where I've been an unskilled laborer at a construction company and a hired hand on the boat. I want a desk job, or a job where I can sit down and think, because I'm tired of being among guys. Really, a programming job would be awesome, but I don't have autism, and I'd like to write, or work in graphical design or music. Video game development would be awesome, but like I said, I'm not apt for the programming that a lot of autisms are.
>mfw changed my major to CS this spring and the transformation is almost complete
Am I going to wake up with blue hair soon?
It's pretty hard to change what you know after you've done it for most of you life. Transition doesn't give you a flurry of friends and a social life or manage to fix the years of social retardation from sitting a PC for all the time.
Not disagreeing there in the slightest. It definitely is enough I don't think the conclusion is instantly obvious. I would say on things like patterns (and math by extension) apes pull ahead. On a social intelligence level, I'd compare elephants more to bonobos. Which to be fair, I like bonobos and elephants more than chimpanzees anyway/.
dude I'm not even saying you're wrong. because it is a possibility. but to make the conclusion that greater neuron populations / synapse/synapse density causes intelligence is just a monumental leap of information NOBODY has. And I dont give a fuck about women being equal or women in general but pretending we can make those jumps I DO take issue with.
Firstly: Human brains aren't like the computers we use on the day to day. Examine your own metaphor. How would you define the 'smartest' computer?
Is it the computer that can do the single most complicated arithmetic one step at a time?
Is it the computer that can do the same amount of work on multiple different, lower complexity operations at the SAME time?
Is it the upper threshold of complexity or quantity?
Is it the maximization of whatever relationship exists between the two?
On a more tangible, structural level: Do more connections automatically make something stronger or more efficient? If you add 500 extra intersections to a city, does traffic move faster? Do the location and activity of instersections not matter?
And ALL these things mean nothing, because at the end of the day if you need the computer to say "Fish" and you've got one machine that has five trillion the computing capacity of the other, and the other says "Fish" then the 'smartest' one is the one that can say "Fish".
gonna have agree with >>5522430
I had a computer gifted to me when I was 4
I've basically never had any friends, including elementary school
I've always holed myself up in my room
computers are the one thing in my life that I've been sort of good at since I regularly spend 6+ hours a day on them, I suck at everything else I try to do
Transitioning is just about going from one gender to the other, not changing your entire life.
Wanting to spend 16 hours a day on computers pre-transition, why would that change post-transition?
These anons nailed it. Two of the three transgender adults I know IRL are programmers. They both tell me they spent a lot of time messing around on their computers when they were younger because it was safer and more comfortable for them than socializing offline. Meatspace is a scary place when you don't even feel comfortable in your own skin.
Biological women are usually idiots. Even FTMs are smarter, literally every study I've ever seen has shown that FTMs have more "masculine" brains and are smarter by a lot on average. Same sort of goes for MTFs but we're usually pretty mentally unstable.
Cis females are raised with the stigma that programming is for low-life shut-ins. Same with most STEM jobs. Trans women are raised as boys, so for them STEM jobs are easy prey, while they are being discouraged from stereotypical female jobs (anything involving care for others).
Also programmers work in the back end of a company, e.g. as far away from customers as possible. No one in their right mind would present an MtF - no matter how competent in her job she might be - to a customer. So MtFs have more chance to be hired for back-end jobs than front-end one (more in touch with customers).
Can confirm/ FtM majoring in CS minoring in Graphic Design, probably the reason trannies all like anime too.
I don't feel like females are discouraged from going into STEM though, i never felt discouraged growing up as a girl, but maybe that's because i don't internalize messages directed towards females.
My personal theory:
Being an intelligent/mathy person intersects with being a very sensitive person.
Sensitivity is culturally attributed to femininity by the patriarchy.
Men who cannot stand the thought of being effeminate men decide that they must be women.
I do not doubt the existence of sex dysphoria, I am for health care providing transitioning, I am against any sort of violence towards transgendered individuals and everyone else, but I do believe that transgenderism is a symptom of a cultural disease and not a personal disease.
Our culture quite possibly induces sex and gender dysphoria in some people who do not conform to constrictive gender norms.
I'm a computer scientist. (I've taken part in the standardization of the Scheme programming language.) In the past I would often joke about being a lesbian woman in a man's body. Briefly, I more seriously considered that I might be transgender. I can imagine feeling fairly good in a female body, flaunting a "feminine" personality, but ultimately I see nothing wrong with the combination of my body and my personality, and love myself as a gentle, sensitive, loving boy who sympathizes deeply with women, including during sex, is sometimes submissive and sometimes dominant, preferably simply equal, and always sincere and empathic.
Newest, cutting-edge research (links to actual studies found in the articles; they sum up the results fairly well):
And even older research says you're full of shit:
>I surely can't answer you that question because not even scientists found out an answer yet.
There's consensus in sociology that the patriarchy is a real thing, although they might not always call it that.
It's like history and politics 101.
Research suggests that gender stereotypes may be the driving force behind occupational segregation because they influence men and women's educational and career decisions.
Studies by Michael Conway et al., David Wagner and Joseph Berger, John Williams and Deborah Best, and Susan Fiske et al. found widely shared cultural beliefs that men are more socially valued and more competent than women at most things, as well as specific assumptions that men are better at some particular tasks (e.g., math, mechanical tasks) while women are better at others (e.g., nurturing tasks). Shelley Correll, Michael Lovaglia, Margaret Shih et al., and Claude Steele show that these gender status beliefs affect the assessments people make of their own competence at career-relevant tasks. Correll found that specific stereotypes (e.g., women have lower mathematical ability) affect women's and men's perceptions of their abilities (e.g., in math and science) such that men assess their own task ability higher than women performing at the same level. These "biased self-assessments" shape men and women's educational and career decisions.
Similarly, the OECD states that women's labour market behaviour "is influenced by learned cultural and social values that may be thought to discriminate against women (and sometimes against men) by stereotyping certain work and life styles as 'male' or 'female'." Further, the OECD argues that women's educational choices "may be dictated, at least in part, by their expectations that [certain] types of employment opportunities are not available to them, as well as by gender stereotypes that are prevalent in society."
>There just has to be some sort of difference between the average male brain and the average female brain.
Im sorry dude, its common knowledge in science that men and women have regions of the brain that are larger or smaller depending on sex. Additionally, sexual preference is the same across cultures. You'll find that the average male is attracted to a woman between 16-25 who has a good hip to waist ratio. And the average woman is attracted to a man roughly 5 years older with a steady income. Obviously there are exceptions, I know, I know, but how do you explain that this is the trend in literally every culture, in every race, if there arent biological difference in human psychology?
Aside from which we know sex hormones have a great impact on human psychology.
My guess is the study referred to is deeply flawed. Small sample size, bizarre criteria for comparison, something like that. You are seriously not going to revolutionise neuroscience with a single study, sex differences in human psychology have been known about for several decades, there's mountains of evidence for it
Uh huh. So how do you explain the fact that men inherently have more spatial awareness and find it easier to think about and solve 3D puzzles, where as women are more gifted linguistically? You cant teach aptitude for these things.
Your pseudo-science ITT is laughable
>I know better than the most recent meta-analysis of thousands of brains
>men inherently have more spatial awareness and find it easier to think about and solve 3D puzzles
Uhm, let's fact-check that
>Metastudies show a male advantage in mental rotation and assessing horizontality and verticality and a female advantage in spatial memory.
>Performance in mental rotation and similar spatial tasks is affected by gender expectations. For example, studies show that being told before the test that men typically perform better, or that the task is linked with jobs like aviation engineering typically associated with men versus jobs like fashion design typically associated with women, will negatively affect female performance on spatial rotation and positively influence it when subjects are told the opposite. Experiences such as playing video games also increase a person's mental rotation ability. A study from the University of Toronto showed that differences in ability get reduced after playing video games requiring complex mental rotation. The experiment showed that playing such games creates larger gains in spatial cognition in females than males.
>the most recent meta-analysis of thousands of brains
Which still said their were male and female brain regions, but there is more overlap than previously thought.
Somehow you think that saying "brains are more varied than we thought" means "THERE ARE NO SEX DIFFERENCES ITS ALL A LIE!"
>Uhm, let's fact-check that
Oh no, a single study that contradicts every study up until this point!? You have bested me sir! Truly, your insistence to only use studies that agree with your point of view, ignoring literally hundreds of studies that dont agree- I have seen the light! Lordy lordy, I am saved! Thank you sir! Thank you! How lucky I am you showed me a single study that opposes a thousand others
You sir, are some kind of retard.
Ur full of shit m8.
>its common knowledge in science that men and women have regions of the brain that are larger or smaller depending on sex
That's a misrepresentation of facts:
>There are features that are more prevalent in the brains of women and features that are more prevalent in the brains of men. But human brains tend to have a highly individual mix of such characteristics.
>Interestingly, while hardly anyone has anything like the full set of mostly male features or the full set of mostly female features, by no means everyone with a significant collection of “female end” features is female, and vice versa. What’s more, many of these characteristics aren’t fixed. Environment and experience also play their part in shaping the brain, increasing its individuality.
>the average male is attracted to a woman between 16-25 who has a good hip to waist ratio
>the average woman is attracted to a man roughly 5 years older with a steady income
 on both first,
>how do you explain that this is the trend in literally every culture
Leaving aside that it's not *literally* in every culture, refer to
>Small sample size
>bizarre criteria for comparison
Fairly in-depth statistical analysis, from what I can tell.
You're simply flat-out wrong when you say "blah blah is common knowledge".
>sex differences in human psychology have been known about for several decades
It was never linked to biology, and never was there a clear "male brain" and "female brain" identifiable. People just assumed, as you do.
>mountains of evidence for it
I'm not seeing it.
I do know what meta analysis is as it happens, and no it doesnt mean "all studies" for a start. They still have to select studies. I'd have thought this would eb obvious with the fact it only looked at 1400 brains. Do you really think only 1400 brains have been scanned in decades worth of studies? You'd expect 1400 brains to be scanned by on team on one study. So youre wrong already
Secondly, they still have to select studies. You dont know what criteria they looked for in those studies, what they researched, what they scanned, what they discovered, or the methodology by which they got their data.
On top of that, you dont know if the brains were typical or atypical? If they were being studied in the first place, then its more than likely they were atypical in some way, as in 'not normal'
So do forgive me if Im not compelled by this when literally all research before this has pointed to clear sex differrences in neurology and psychology
>Somehow you think that saying "brains are more varied than we thought" means "THERE ARE NO SEX DIFFERENCES ITS ALL A LIE!"
Small differences in averages.
Do you seriously, non-ironically believe that small differences in averages can explain situations like there being more people named "John" in the top 500 compaines' CEOs than women in total, there being very few female politicians, or there being 20 fucking men in the IT company I work at and literally a single woman, who happens to be a graphic designer?
Denying the patriarchy's massive exaggeration of miniscule differences in *averages*, and how it pushes people into a binary when in truth everyone is a mosaic, is just conservative idiocy at this point. I'm also confused as to why you're so vitriolic in defending that outdated belief.
>a single study that contradicts every study up until this point!?
Literally wrong, it contradicts nothing that was found before.
>You sir, are some kind of retard.
I'm sorry that facts frustrate you.
Congratulations on the massive amounts of backpedalling.
"B-but it's not LITERALLY ALL STUDIES IN HUMAN HISTORY so I'm not going to believe it!"
It's simply the latest research (two different studies, by the way), with massive sample sizes, and disprove widely held beliefs THAT WERE NEVER SCIENTIFICALLY VERIFIED.
>That's a misrepresentation of facts:
No. No it isnt. Case in point, males have larger brains than females. How can their not be size differences in the regions if the brains are different sizes to begin with? Hmmm?
And again, men on average have larger regions associated with mathematical thinking, women have larger regions for linguistics, and remembering faces
Keep calling it "misinformation" all you like youre objectively wrong
> on both first,
All of evolutionary psychology
>Leaving aside that it's not *literally* in every culture, refer to
Except it is
>Fairly in-depth statistical analysis, from what I can tell.
No actually, it compared brain regions, but not functions. Even you should realise how retarded it is to compare areas of the brain that dont do the same thing
>People just assumed, as you do.
Except no, neuroscience , and indeed this study, found that there are regions and sizes of those regions more typical of males or females. What this study found was that very few brains would be considered completely male or completely female. That doesnt mean there arent sex differences, it means that its varied and brains are largely more masculine or more feminine, but rarely exclusively one or the other.
Youre talking complete shit
>Small differences in averages.
And small genetic differences can compound to make humans look completely different.
Sure, if there was a single solitary small difference, it probably wouldnt matter, but thats not what the study says. The study outright says there are sex differences but the degree of difference in individual regions varies.
>Denying the patriarchy's
No such thing as the patriarchy
> contradicts nothing that was found before.
Your conclusion (and several media outlets') that there arent actually sex differences however does contradict all evidence up to this point, and in fact the study youre quoting
How is that backpedalling? I stand by what I said, this study doesnt prove shit
>THAT WERE NEVER SCIENTIFICALLY VERIFIED.
This is an outright fucking lie.
How am I supposed to have reasonable discussion by someone who blatantly doesnt know the field of psychology or neuroscience?
Im fucking done with you. Whatever I say youre just going to lie. Go fuck yourself
>males have larger brains than females
Do you understand the concept of differences in averages vs. individual differences?
>men on average have larger regions associated with mathematical thinking, women have larger regions for linguistics
>All of evolutionary psychology
Nope, you'll have to link actual studies. 80% of evo psyche is making up theories that cannot be verified anyway.
6000 + 1400 = 7400 actually, thanks for reminding.
>it compared brain regions, but not functions
Earlier in this same post, you claim that different overall size must imply different sized regions, presumably must imply different functions. Make up your mind.
>Even you should realise how retarded it is to compare areas of the brain that dont do the same thing
The only thing I realize here is how fucking retarded and arrogant you must be to dismiss a pair of studies off-hand without even looking into them, because the facts they find make you uncomfortable.
>it means that its varied and brains are largely more masculine or more feminine
>while hardly anyone has anything like the full set of mostly male features or the full set of mostly female features, by no means everyone with a significant collection of “female end” features is female, and vice versa
So in short, the whole thought of a "male brain" and "female brain" is unsubstantiated (which was the original claim made in >>5522459), and there's not even a proper correlation between having a brain with mostly "female" parts and being biologically female, and vice versa.
TL;DR: the whole idea of a sex-based brain binary is ridiculous.
You could divide people based on eye color and quite possibly find differences in average brain structure. Yet nobody is making social or occupational distinctions based on eye color.
>And small genetic differences ...
We're not talking about genetic differences though.
And the studies on function also find barely differences.
>No such thing as the patriarchy
That's just historical revisionism, it's like denying the Holocaust. Not going to drop down to that intellectual level.
>Your conclusion (and several media outlets') that there arent actually sex differences
There are miniscule differences in averages. Trying to base sex stereotypes on such differences in averages is very much comparable to concluding that slavery of blacks is natural and biologically justified because there's possibly a miniscule difference in average intelligence.
>This is an outright fucking lie.
Yet you have yet to provide any fucking studies.
>How am I supposed to have reasonable discussion by someone who blatantly doesnt know the field of psychology or neuroscience?
>Im fucking done with you. Whatever I say youre just going to lie. Go fuck yourself
My face when the delicious tears of a misogynist who can't stand getting crushed by science and logic.
It's basically because if you're a nerd, it's socially acceptable to be more fem. They don't have to try extra hard to suppress who they are because there's already an expectation for them to be slightly more frail. They cling to it like life support. Then they realize that they're trans and already have their previous programming ability so BAM. They stay programmers.
simplest answer: the internet's what rallied us together most effectively to help each other with means of living better, help securing access to hrt most obvi, but also obvi p much everything
who it rallied 1st were most proficient w computers, also a vocaction of the socially isolated. the already extant opensource culture of mutual sharing helped us apolitically skillshare marketable skills. we'r often not v employable in wage labour because w/o qualification, reason to hire us we seem just crazy, a risk. paying to pass a certification test on whatever and getting a job that way, or via networking amongst ppl who trust each others skills, has been far more effective
i AM interested in y so many trans women seem to have autisoid characteristics. i was myself diagnosed w aspergers at around the time the diagnosis was penned and still new. i dont like baron-cohen, and see men as more innately flawed and violence prone than women deficient in anything--a world of only women would hav accomplished more w a negligible fraction of the violence--mens destructive "naturally selective"/brutal eliminationist ways seems obsolete in a post-darwinian society. i AM interested how the idea of an "extreme male" brain might b drawn further inward, towards awkward vocations of the isolated; but also if that might trigger disordered compensatory measures in the brain, w/ the consequence of some parts of the brain activating what might cause someone to identify female
im not so for essentialism, as much as i see the pressure to identify as one or the other, esp in life defining stages like one's teens. seems to have prob encouraged mating, having a potentially obvi evolutionary basis. its just a disordered vestige we hav to accept that people still carry (and we must treat this vestige with respect to treat human animals fairly, who are uniquely self-aware)
humans r otherwise not v sexual dimorphic compared with other species, this likely key in our ability to cooperate
MTF here. Studied Computer science, then switched to Informatics. Currently working at IBM (horrible company BTW) and during my time at university I saw at least 4 other people start or come out as trans during my time.
But you sir >>5525146 sound EXACTLY like me! I have said and lived all the same things. The difference for me is I can remember wishing I was a woman for as long as I can remember. I felt I was always meant to be a woman, and now I am finally taking steps towards that.
I have many people ask me why don't you just carry on living as a soft male, or other similar comments after I tell them. For me its not about being a soft male though its about being a woman. I suspect that years from now you may be proven right by historians that this is a disease of our time. That doesn't make it less real for me though. I need to do this. I feel like an explorer at times, and scared shitless at others.
I have lost the support and respect from my parents but my friends and especially girlfriend fully support me and that keeps me going. I still think you are more right than many people realize though.
I don't think this is true. Out of the 80 people left in my CS program (originally 500)
9 are girls, and 1 transgirl who is completely passable. The weeaboo manly trannys and the tumblr gaymer gurls have all failed out.
This guy nailed it.
Also explains why it's such a prevalent profession on /jp/ and /a/.
Come to think of it I should be studying it because my health doesn't allow me to work a traditional job for long.
Also everyone that replied to that early bait post is fucking retarded.