>>5515624 >Lesbian Most older studies include a currently disproportionate number of late transitioners (led a mostly heteronormative social life, married, have adult or near-adult children).
And even their sexuality, on later review, has tended to broaden into some subset of more masculine partners.
As time marches on, and surveys include more young (teen-twenties) transitioners, heterosexuality becomes more common, with some degree of bisexuality most common. The rate of bisexuality in the general (adolescent and young adult) populace actually seems to be catching up with us.
It could be we're growing more open about our often less rigid sexualities as a culture, with those on the outskirts being quicker to embrace it for lack of censure. (How much more stigmatized can you get than trans, without opening up the intersectionality, or pedophiles?)
I personally conjecture that if the MtF condition is a result of the prenatal hormone exposure of the brain, and a similar theory exists on the origin of homosexuality, then it should be entirely possible that an MtF would be far more likely to have an attraction to women (which in a world of "everything functions perfectly," is an exclusively AMAB trait that all AMABs have) than the average cis woman would, because they were after all, "intended" for lack of a better term, to come out with all "ideally exclusively" male traits.
Women (cis women were probably the only participants in the related studies) are also often said to be more bisexual or more fluid in their sexualities than men. So assuming trans women have the same moldability to their sexualities as their cis counterparts, it can be postulated that trans women use this to take the path of least resistance against society's expectations that AMABs should be heterosexual. That is my second hypothesis, and there's no reason both can't be right, even within the same individual.
The AGP theory is humorous, but I admit it can't be ruled out entirely since I have read some posts by people claiming to be FtMs with AGP.
>>5516838 This, but maybe also lesbians are all around and more women would be lesbians now but because it is seen as less socially acceptable for cis women than it is for trans girls, that creates the seemingly large disproportion.
>>5515624 Now don't freak out at this post. Most MtFs aren't actually MtF, some are, but most actually have hyper body dysmorphic disorder that prevents them from approaching or being with men/women. They transition, thinking that the most opposite thing from their bodies, in this case the other sex, will solve their issues. They then feel some comfort in reaching out.
>>5515933 yeah intersectionality could do most people a real favor, even the pedophiles because it's intersectionally related to homosexuality. At least a high amount of my gay fuqqbuddys are kinda pedo but it doesn't appear to bum anyone out
>>5520842 There's having BDD from being trans, but then there's just plain having BDD. Mainly from things like being a loser, molested, spoiled, daddy/mommy issues, bullied - which mostly always are present for these trans folk in question.
>>5520770 Speak for yourself. You have absolutely no proof that those of us who are still attracted to women are not true MtFs.
God I hate this board and how much you demonize us for having an abnormal sexual preference in relation to our gender identity.
It's fucked up. I thought this would be one of the few places I could go without having to deal with being shit on or invalidated by my peers but I guess bigotry is even present within the lgbt community. Who'd have thought.
>>5520936 Funny thing, I actually kind of stand outside of the usual abuses some folk find. For instance, I always felt the way I am. I didn't really get the chance to explore it because of lack of information. Parents and I dismissed it as crossdressing for years and that was that. It was only while I was in the military that the words were found. I am a self made person though and actually have a decent relationship with my family. I was well liked enough and don't suffer from chronic depression or anything. The trans issue was only addressed by Army doctors as a part of the fallout from a disaster I was involved in.
I might be an exception though. I suspect that a lot of trans folk have had more or less normal childhoods but we kind of get drowned out by the woe is me types...
>>5522940 Yeah, not me. When I was 6 my camp counseler put a tiara and some lipstick on me and had e sit on his lap in the back of a minivan. He then proceeded to put his hands down my pants and rub my penis back and forth. So yeah, I know where my crossdressing and trans-status come from. Just goes to show you how much child molestation can ruin your life.
>>5523015 At the cost of ruining your endocrine system and being on aynthetic hormones for the remainder of your life. Yes, it's wrong. I'd say that to anyone that wanted to undergo extreme cosmetic surgery really.
>>5523025 I'm sorry to hear that Anon. If you ever wanna vent, I occasionally lurk... I increasingly wonder if the point in which people become trans is a case by case. I always just kind of... knew. I never hated my male body so much. But it wasn't right somehow. The word I was told was dysphoria. I was asked if I ever tried taking hormones on my own and I actually answered yes because I wanted a more girlish body (And I only went off what little they brought up in school. Testosterone for guys estrogen for girls).
I wonder if it really is that molestation causes homosexuality or transgender identity. I think it's just that child molesters somehow know on some level which kids are trans or gay and may be unknowingly attracted to those signs. It could be instead that since molesters pick off isolated children, it's just more likely that they will end up picking children who don't fit in completely because they're hiding their trans or gay status.
Personally, I have never been molested. However, it's possible that I narrowly escaped being molested. When I was out with my father one day, we went to the house of a couple who were friends of the family who were hosting a party at that time. According to my father, we were there just a short time, because he just went for a quick talk (though I am sure it was longer than he remembers it). There was a guy renting out the basement apartment who I didn't know, but I thought he was cool because I thought no one near the party would be dangerous. He called me over to show me something, maybe Spider Man 2. So he told me to wait in this room and not leave while he was gone. But there was a boy in the basement with us, and when the guy left, the boy called me over into the adjacent room to show me something. Maybe this was the Spider-Man 2 I came in search of, I don't recall. Whatever it was the kid showed me on the TV, it was cool. Then the guy came back and he was flipping out. He told me that I was supposed to stay in the other room and pushed me out. Then he slammed the door shut. I thought, "He didn't have to be a butthole about it."
I never even realized he might have wanted to touch me until I told my father this story last year because I wanted to know who he was. The possibility didn't even occur to me until my father suggested it after listening to my story.
Regardless of the fact I was lucky enough to never be molested, I'm a bisexual tranny.
>>5524604 I don't know why but I wondered if it might've coloured his thought process in thinking the guy was a kiddie fiddler, like concern for daddy's little girl that kinda thing? I don't know, I'm dumb.
He has asked me throughout childhood if I had been molested. Presumably because of my (to him) unexplained eccentric behavior. Strangely enough, I wrote an evaluation of myself for one of the administrators of my school in 12th grade. After reading it, he asked me if I had been sexually abused as a child in a concerned way, because only victims of abuse think so badly of themselves, he said (I called myself cowardly and worthless, and possibly stupid). I was shocked to hear that, and I said, "Oh, no, I didn't mean to imply anything of the kind."
While >>5515704 might have truth to it too, my favorite theory so far goes...
Disclaimer: I do not doubt the existence of sex dysphoria, I am for health care providing transitioning, I am against any sort of violence towards transgendered individuals and everyone else, I'm willing to speak out against discrimination and all sorts of asshattery against transpeople.
The culture we live in insists on a strong correspondence between biological sex, and gendered personality traits. This insistence is wrong.
(If anyone wonders how it can be that most cultures around the world are the same in this regard, http://www.aroomofourown.org/gender-is-socially-constructed-upon-material-reality-by-umlolidunno-2/ has a good explanation.)
So fairly arbitrary sets of personality traits are being called "feminine personality" and another fairly arbitrary sets of personality traits are being called "masculine personality". These groupings have pretty much no logic at all behind them. Any random person you choose might have, in their nature, any combination of personality traits of which some might fall under masculine and some feminine. These categories of masculine and feminine traits are entirely arbitrary, made up, with no logical connection between the personality traits found within each category. There's also no logic behind putting some personality traits into such a category, and leaving some personality traits out of both categories.
Despite the arbitrariness, society insists that people who are biologically male must have predominantly "masculine" personality traits, and people who are biologically female must have predominantly "feminine" personality traits.
For most people, it's possible to manage to live half-way sanely by forcing oneself to fit these stereotypes.
For some people however, the result is devastating, because their natural personality is in total contradiction with the stereotype associated with their biological sex.
And now the thing is, these people could somehow make this in-depth analysis concluding that all of society is deeply fucking wrong about the whole categories, but that's a difficult idea to conclude.
What's a lot easier on the human brain, subconsciously, is to conclude that e.g. a male whose personality is strongly in line with the "feminine personality" stereotype somehow REALLY IS a woman, in terms of personal identity, and just happens to have a male body by error.
It's a very simple step to take. It's not nearly as difficult to understand as "the whole categories are lies and all the groupings of personality traits are arbitrary". Especially when everyone in the society in some way conforms to the stereotypes, causing them to seem justified and true.
And quite plausibly, the devastating situation of one's personality ("gender") not fitting to one's anatomy ("sex"), which is something that even a child can intuitively understand from comparing himself/herself to other children, leads to a deep sex dysphoria, a strong belief that their brain does not just sport a personality which has been dubbed e.g. a "woman's personality" (assuming an MtF), but also desires the female anatomy. After all, everyone including these people believe strongly in a connection between biological sex, and some arbitrary group of personality traits ("gender").
Now, there's studies finding that trans brains have certain characteristics which suggest that their brain really is a "woman's brain" or "man's brain".
However, is that really a "woman's brain" or "man's brain", or is it simply "type of brain more frequently found in women" and "type of brain more frequently found in men"?
(Note we partly contradict the first claim here, that feminine/masculine traits are entirely arbitrary. They might, after all, have some biological root; see the article linked in my first post again on this.)
So maybe this scientific evidence is not evidence for trans people "really having a woman's/man's brain", but rather evidence that they have a type of brain that's more *common* for the other biological sex, hence leading to their personality aligning better with the stereotypes put on that sex, hence leading to the sex dysphoria.
So maybe in a society where the notion of gender is abolished entirely, where people understand that every individual person has an entirely individual set of personality traits, we would see sex and gender dysphoria disappear.
TL;DR: People's personality is influenced by genetics and brain structure. Due to the insistence of societies that biological sex correspond with certain (fairly arbitrary) sets of personality traits (gender stereotypes), some people whose natural personality contradicts too much with their gender stereotype end up developing sex and gender dysphoria, feeling they were meant to have the opposite sex.
wow uh, i can't read that right now, i take a lot of meds; idk i feel more friendly towards radfems on here in light of the fact we deal with complete fascists right now and i'd rather we be united vs a common enemy rather than be vulnerable bickering of the minutia of how we see things. we should be critical of each other, and try to remind, as best as we can, when we think we're actually helping the fascists. we shouldn't treat the idea of "residual male priv" as unholy invalidating anathaema, indeed women should be trying to be critical of internalised misogyny whatever the source or history of. it's validating not invalidating.
i might reply relevantly later or i may not, i'm weird, i had problems when i transitioned young and left home because i was raised more second wavey left than right-wing. still my father, for all of those ways, of his is still the person i have the highest opinion of and the person i am closest to despite the fact we need to live alone to get along (economic circumstances of my gen and cost of living in canada literally would rationalise a 31 y o living with her parents)
in the end as crazy as trans women are, and as much sexual violence we grapple with in our communities--it's still safer than dating cis men, by a long shot. cis women and afab ppl have better options dating-wise and are usually irrelevant, unless you really have your shit together. they make good friends, but those friendships are better left unruined by awkwardness. a lot of our cis women friends have also been our friends for so long, it would feel practically incestuous. a lot of us only settled on feeling p clearly homo/gay because of our patterns with trans women--whether ppl want to see that as two men or two women dating i'd rather happily stay ignorant of debates of so i can function
>>5525501 At this point you're just transparently scrambling to reconcile your prophet words on transgenderism, and your desire to not reject trans people by accepting (the clinically avered, subjective feeling of) body dysphoria.
The proposed theory is unfalsifiable (thus trash-tier, epistemologically speaking), this because it cannot be meaningfully tested : whether this view is true, or the coventionnal view is, there would be no difference in outcome. (Eg : a person is trans - can always be explained as "too much gender role enforcement", as perfectly neutral upbringing is not possible - thus unfalsifiable)
Furthermore, Occam's rasor suggests we take the simpler hypothesis, in this case the one not necessitating all this convolution to make it fit with Dworkin views. It is simpler to assume that desire for anatomy is intrinsic rather than a consequence of not fitting into gender role. (Because some people are GNC but not trans, you would need another factor) Or generally that being trans is the result of a brain development error, rather than a complex "reasonning" made by a child as you suggest.
There's also no evidence body dysphoria is signicantly more frequent in "highly gender policed" community, which could be expected according to your theory.
On a more personal level, please be aware that your experience of being gender non-conforming yet cis, does not mean trans people are just misguided, and need to accept "androginy" (or whatever meme) in their heart to stop being trans, or that that they would be fine had they had a more "androgynous" upbringing like you probably had. As much as I dislike tumblrism, it's basically cissplaining.
Oh and the whole "lesbian trans girls are all agp meme" has been debunked so many times its not even funny.
>its totally ok for cis girls to be lesbian straight girls are gross >OMG ALL TRANS GIRLS HAVE TO BE STRAIGHT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE LESBIAN AT ALL OR THATS AGP THIS STUDY FROM 30 YEARS AGO THAT WAS DEBUNKED CONFIRMS IT
This is why /lgbt/ is the worst board on 4chan. Worse than /pol/ /v/ /tv/ and /mlp/ combined.
>>5531379 How was that theory debunked? As far as I'm concerned, it was the only valid, s ientific study I can find on Lesbian trans-girls that doesn't involve feel good science. Though stigmatizing by presenting it as a paraphilia, AGP seems like reality from the things I see posted all over the internet. There's practically a "fetish or trans?" thread every day here.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org with the post's information.