Reddit buttblasted lmao.
What do you hons have to say about this?
I agree with the person that said it's not so much about being 'scared', but rather, that because the only transgender people pre-transition people tend to 'see' are non-passing/visibly-trans ones, they get this idea that no matter what, they aren't going to pass, and are going to look freaky to the rest of society (and themselves).
Some hons are still fucking terrifying, but that's more because they're creepy people in general than because they don't pass.
Watched this interesting interview with Sophia Lamar.
She starts talking about transsexuality at 4:40, and goes on talking about how peoplçe nowadays just want to become a women becuase it's like a trendy commodity to some people.
Reminds me a lot of the cases I see on 4chan, especially the ones obsessed about "passing" desu.
>passing isn't important, desu
you didn't just imply that, did you?
>Not wanting to be abused and harassed when walking down the street
>Wanting to be employable
>Wanting to have a chance at a relationship with someone who isn't a hon
>Wanting to not have body dysphoria
It's not even the case.
You are obviously one of those people obsessed about the "passing game", and I don't believe I listened to what Sophia talks about.
I'm saying you can be still be a total men with a fetish who thinks your case is more convincing because you "pass" (in your opinion).
I have literally seen people here saying they transitioned just "because".
Not to the mention how common is seeing people in this board that can't properly tell if it's a fetish of them or not.
To me, Sophia seems right. Anyone can get what is avaliable for transsexuality treatment, it doesn't mean that person is actually trans, the same way you can have a trans person not transitioning.
It's not about going to the shop and buying a women mask and a dress and making a "passing scene".
what the fuck are you talking about?
i didn't transition "just because" -- that's probably more the forte of the people on the reddit thread. i'd have rather jumped under a bus than kept living as a guy, and similarly, i'd have rather jumped under a bus than lived as a visibly-transgender freak.
You are a freak. You can try and hide and pretend you are above the others if that's what gives you some satisfaction.
Anyway, the "passing" is not even the issue, but everytime it's mentioned around here people can think about anything else.
It's that many people calling themselves women beucase they can afford some surgery or pills aren't really women at all, they literally just fetishe about looking like one.
You can see that a lot at r/transtimelines
When before you have very nice looking, well groomed, defined abs, successful life with a girlfriend.
And then "ok I wanna be a girl now cus I can!".
I won't believe that you can manage successful male life with GID.
I dont pass to a lot of people but im cute enough to pull off dressing fem and i pass to black people 99%, plus i doubt i will pass much better than i already do so im full time
Does this make the closet trans girls here mad?
There is only one purpose of transitioning:
To go from male to female, or from female to male. You do not transition from male to tranny, or female to tranny. Passing is important as it is the ONLY goal of transitioning. Visibly trans people terrify people away from transitioning because it tells them one thing: transitioning fails at its only purpose.
If you don't pass, you aren't living as a woman and your entire transition was pointless.
I agree. There are so many straight transbians on reddit that nuked their families and their reputations cause "at 32 I realized I was trans, repression cry". No one believes you hon. We all know you just sit around jacking off in womens clothes until it drove you over the edge and you had to live out and be validated for your fetish
Fuck, lol. This is how it actually went for me. Lived 22 years of my life as a male, no problem at all. Found out I had a fetish for women's clothing and looking/being fucked like a woman. I then had to live out my fetish.
I don't get what you are saying, but I do feel you care more about edgyness than logic.
>No biological males are women
I'm quite sure I see some claiming they are around here, yes.
Exactly what some 4chan professed "passing" people here do.
Emulate an old ideal of womanhood with surgeries, pills, and dressing up, expecting that some straight guy would eventually fuck them so they don't feel so gay.
It's very mainly desu.
i agree, go out as girl if you look a gir lnot like a fucking monster, its ppl like that,ugly hons and tranies that dont put effort, that gives all the ppl on the world the image of trannies being gross freaks, and i hate it so much.
i'm 19, started hrt at 15, and pass literally 100% of the time. i'm also only attracted to men.
yeah there are creepy 32 year old hons out there, but you're so out of touch with the current demographic of these websites.
...i think. is anyone here a 32 year old hon?
That's not was I was talking about, but the motivaitons behind it. I'm surprised that you are that shallow, but I can see why would call anonymous people "retarded" as you just said something really smart.
Again, those surgeries are avaliable for anyone that can afford, edgyfag.
The only people who don't think passing is important are thise who cannot pass and have to delude themselves into thinking they don't want to pass.
Enjoy living as a linebacker in a dress hon
Honestly, that depends on the definition of "hon". The traditional one (an exaggeratedly femme-acting mtf who puts little thought or care into her appearance, and does not pass) gets you few results. The more modern "hon" (non-passing mtf) has some presence on this board.
There's a layered attraction to passing that pretty much ensures everyone who isn't already out to the universe as trans aims for it, with varying degrees of perfectionism.
It gets you treatment faster (and cheaper). It lets you blend into the world as a man or woman, rather than as a living flag for transgender issues. It shelters you from irrational hatred. It makes other people around you more comfortable. It reduces social anxiety and dissatisfaction.
Passing not only affirms your gender identity, but smooths interactions with other people.
I don't intend to hide being trans from anyone I have more than casual interaction with, but I still aim to pass. I don't want to have to fight dysphoria and social norms all of the time. I'm not strong enough for that. Sometimes, I just want to rest on the bus ride home. Or have lunch with a friend. Or attend theater. Or all kinds of stuff that not passing adds an edge, and impediments to. It's a luxury, sure, but one I cherish and feel is worth putting some work toward.
I'm sad not everyone can achieve that, but from what I've seen, most can (even if it takes serious doing).
I'm transitioning to live my life as a woman. A trans woman, to be sure, but if I don't pass, my experience of "woman" is much less robust than my experience of "trans".
Passing isn't everything. It shouldn't be. But saying it doesn't matter at all is just as wrongheaded in our world of gender binaries.
I want to tell 4chan a story. A story about the first trans person i ever met.
So i worked retail when i was younger, at what was basically a second hand shop that more or less bought and sold everything.
One day a trans person came in, who was basically a well sized overweight guy - probably around 50 or so - in a pink floral dress. I was polite anyway, called her by the appropriate pro-nouns, served her and bought the many many games and dvds she was selling, and had a chat to her as well.
So turns out she was in the army, back when she was a
guy. Worked as a minesweeper, and we talked for a little while about the spaniels she used to work with while i checked the stuff she was selling was okay and tested the electronics.
So she came in pretty regularly, and it became increasingly obvious she was in absolutely no way 'all there'. Mostly because the only thing she talked about other than mines were her dresses, which she was buying with the money we were giving her for all the stuff she was selling. Which was actually quite a lot of stuff, we noticed. Maybe it was PTSD or whatever - certainly she didn't seem to talk about any of her friends or colleagues in the present tense - but it was pretty clear she was barmy.
This continued, her coming in every couple of days for like two weeks. Selling blu-rays and games and DVDs and electronics, and talking about her dresses and how happy she'd be when she had... i dont know, the 'right' amount of dresses she wanted i guess.
So eventually, she stopped coming in. I noticed this and was actually a little sad. She'd been obviously not there in the head, but had served her country with distinction and had seemed pretty harmless and - at the end of the day - had been a friendly, well-spoken and polite face in a place which was usually frequented by drug dealers and the lower class.
So a couple weeks later, some guy comes in to ask about some stuff that's been sold to us. And describes pretty much perfectly the customer that had come in. Not that that was hard, given that former army officers in bright dresses weren't that common a sight.
So yeah, he'd been her room mate or something. And he'd left the country for a month or so to come back to find:
A) His entire apartment had been ransacked for anything even remotely valuable.
B) Where had once been his stuff, there was now dresses. Everywhere dresses. Of all types and brands and costs, from summer to wedding dresses.
C) His roommate dead in her room. He didn't explain by which method.
So yeah. Not much of a story as far as morals or life lessons go, but i wanted to tell it. Can't say it really coloured my opinions of trans people. It was just sad. But i wasn't the only person to meet that demolitions expert turned dress fiend. She walked around dressed like a saucy grandmother, flogging this guys stuff to anyone so she could buy dresses and die happy(?). So i hope most people just saw her like i did, and didn't let it colour their opinions of trans people.
Only that she killed herself and had been there for a while before he got back to his place.
As for what her life might have been like, i didn't ask. To be honest it felt impolite to question the guy who's roommate had just stolen all his stuff and killed herself. Though honestly i got the impression he didn't really know much more than me about her (i dont know why, he just didn't speak about her as if they were friends or particularly close. Or maybe he was just being flippant because of the whole 'dead person in my house'-thing. He and i were both too british to determine emotions).
>and didn't let it colour their opinions of trans people.
...and yet this, as well as that poor disturbed man living as Haruna Yukawaand working in Middle Eastern conflict (clearly looking for the end), these are part of a common pattern we see where men crack under some sort of pressure and reject their gender as a part of rejecting life.
Post-op tranny suicide rates aren't high just because of society's attitudes and treatment of them, and they aren't mentally unstable just because of the social pressures they face.
The Eleusian Rites used to let a man stressed by his life get drunk and crazed by drums, step up, cut off his dick-n-balls, then throw them at the first house he came to, who would have to clothe him as a woman for a year. Ancient Greece i know, but they had a social way fo rpeople to deal with a not uncommon problem. Thais have ladyboys as part of the culture, there was even one who fought as a kickboxer then went into politics.
Our western social attitudes are primitive and corrosive, yes, but some men who want to be women are just unstable wheels-on-fire headed for the bottom.
Yet if you mention that an older transitioner will likely have worse results from surgeries than a lung transitioner, these sites will completely surround you and swear you off...
Doesn't seem like much of a safe space than it is a delusional old transitioner space
>implying /lgbt ain't a hugbox in that sense.
It's mostly pictures of non passing people telling each other they pass.
If you want to go outside your "safespace" you'd leave the house.
have you even seen the transpassing reddit board.
like, holy shit, at least some of the people on lgbt are honest. you could be a 40 year old man, wearing a dress for the first time with some bad make up (and no hormones), and legit
someone will say "wow you really pass. nothing male about you".
Ya but at the same time the transpassing board has higher traffic so they have a lot more cuties than the likes of mtfg overall. They just have a lot of hons as well which is fun to see
I don't understand how people can tell themselves and others anything different. Yes I'll accept that they're a woman, but I'm not attracted to them, I'm not going to forget the fact that they're trans. They are women, but they transitioned physically to Trans.
My plan from the start was to stay as an attractive man if I couldn't pass, get a mastectomy and maybe stay on hrt. Why would anyone WANT to be visibly trans, how could anyone not delusional be happy that way? And if you didn't want to be visibly trans, how is that somehow better than being a man? Why accept that? Just be a man on estrogen who shaves his body and sometimes acts "feminine."
to be honest I don't really care, it's frustrating seeing what looks like delusion but it doesn't actually affect me in any real way. I'm happy I turned out good, they can do what they want as long as they don't try to drag me down with them.
well think about where the transition is. If you just take some pills, what did you transition to? A man who is on pills?
the only real transition is a sex transition. I guess you kind of do change on hrt, growing breasts as male or body hair as female. Men with low T can grow boobs, just like a person on hrt, but nobody would say he somehow transitioned.
It's considered a medical transition, but not a social transition. Some transition socially but not medically. A lot of detransitioners are "social detransitioners", since hormones really are a serious quality of life boost all on their own.
please tell me what movie this is from.
Anyway, it's totally true. Hons are a bane on the trans rights movement. but I will continue to assert that being a late transitioner does not necessarily make one a hon. Many late transitioners can live perfectly happy, normal lives if they just accept that they are not conventionally attractive women. I say conventionally attractive because I have met plenty of people who not only don't mind the hon look but actually prefer it.
Hons are the ditzy, mannish trannies that take every moment to act like a bitchy diva, talk about partying wit her girrrrrls, and act overtly creepy towards cis women and talk way too much about sex.
Dat tumblr-style repeat-this-line-three-times-with-different-text-decoration tho
Not at all. Specially in other boards, like /soc, where you can see the most obvious trans "passing", because they are doing sterotypical girl things, so people just gender them female. Even delusional people using make up apps "pass". Just but a pink bow in your head and crop your shoulders.
On /lgbt things don't look much more honest, you see a bunch people hiding their frames as much as they can while talking about ffs.
and people call them out on it. "hey ugly ho, why are the only pictures of you on here taken from weird angles with an instagram filter applied? bet it's cos you can't pass for shit without ffs"
Now ask for a full body shot of the ones that had ffs too.
Guess how many of them actually look like a total cis woman in a real life setting, and how many of them just like to assume they do on anonymous boards?
To me most of them are deluded about passing, even if it's a totally fair goal. It's just really hard to be a total pass, and it's rare to see these kind of people.
Also, I don't meant to imply that not totally passing in that sense is actually being a total failure, wich seem to be the usual logic of the person desperate to convince others to be a pass by pictures.
This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This.
As a redditer, I have to agree with 4chan on this. Even at 15 months hrt, no fucking way am I going to present as a girl until I'm certain I can pass. Boymode has to constantly fail until fulltime. If not, I'll fucking detransition.
It's true I'd say. I never figured transitioning can actually do something for me until it was too late. I always thought trannies = drag because that's the only kind of trans I had seen until an internet friend introduced me to passing trannies. I started a bit late due to this I guess, I don't blame the hons I blame people for not telling me trannies can pass in the first place (with pictures)
>Many late transitioners can live perfectly happy, normal lives if they just accept that they are not conventionally attractive women.
Late (read, not young) cis women are not conventionally attractive either.
They are afraid of criticism and the supposed "culture" of this forum.
>Really the thing that scares transgirls off from transitioning (IMO that is) is the way people treat visibly trans women not visibly trans women themselves.
I don't understand why this comment and comments like this get 5 or more upvotes, don't they understand first impressions matter? That most communication is non-verbal. This "I don't care, this is all about me, RESPECT ME AND CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE" Stuff isn't practical in the real world.
>4chan /lgbt/, in general, is actively hateful towards any trans girl who isn't young and pretty. They've even coined a slur for older trans girls ("hon"/"hun"). Don't pay attention to them.
>tfw people doubt your dedication and that you're really trans
>play video games everyday have thousands of hours in some games
>realize I spent at least two hours crying or self mutilating every day about being trans and suffering my white life
>735 hours a year
>16,790 hours of my life AT LEAST have been spent in pain over this
>mfw anyone brings it up now
It's a body Dysmorphia condition. I highly doubt all the fifty year old men who went through life without it could be anything other than wankers
Especially not if they're psychotic, over the top versions of an aged Pink Flamingos lead.
I mean take Miranda Yardley, leaves his family in his forties, creeps around real women by barging in like that and insists younger transitioners are fake and shouldn't have access to meds till their late 20s. Tell me that isn't just a fetishy man who hides under some superiority complex.
I used to reddit back in 2009 and the asktg sub was actually pretty good. There were a lot of younger transitioners and about 90% of them were cool with self medding. These days all of the younger ones have moved on to 4chan or tumblr and reddit is just Susans light.
Children, sure, not adults and even with children they will still never really be anything but a freak
You cannot change from male to female or vice versa. You are what you were born. Inventing pseudo science to support your delusion wont change that
It's a mental illness
What kind of body automatically = nonpassing with a passable face. If you are taling 6+ big framed people then ya I agree. But most males like 5'8"-5'10" 17-18in shoulders, small hips. I mean is having shoulders over your hips masculine? Yes. Does it make you "unpassable". I don't think so.
Maybe I am projecting. I think its not hard to get your body to passable as long as you aren't wearing a bikini or are like 6'3" or have super broad and wide boney shoulders and rail thin hips.
If you want to wear binkinis get some body sculpting done like Carmen, thats the only way to get a truly passable body.
21, late relative to puberty at least, all the damage has been done and I'm just hoping I didn't get fucked too badly aside from my height
This. I was scared back into the closet because I thought it was totally hopeless. It wasn't until I saw examples of passing transwomen on television that I stopped. Role models are important.
>basic molec genetics and endo are pseudoscience
But uh Isn't the whole reason meds and surgery work on on nonhons exactly cause they alter sex traits? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2269003/
So then all this stuff about how hormones control what genes make it to product and how that controls phenotype is all a lie?
Cool senpai, look forward to you telling the professors how natural laws are pseudoscience.
The biggest problem is a complete lack of education on the subject.
It should be mandatory that information on cross-sex hormone replacement therapy and how it works be taught during those sex-ed classes they put you through in middle school. It would solve so many problems and prevent so much misery. And all the non-passing hons who creep everyone out would cease to exist.
It really is our educational system and the same people who think trans people are freaks who are the ones responsible for creating the freaks. They breed more freaks by keeping young trans in the dark when they could be stopped from being freaks if only they were given proper information before it was too late.
I want to be a little girl at 900 like in my vietnamese radio dramas
>This "I don't care, this is all about me, RESPECT ME AND CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE" Stuff isn't practical in the real world.
This so much. Every retard saying "the solution is for people to raise their children tolerant" or some shit like that is basically saying "I want to remove people who disagree with me or at least their freedom to raise their kids after their own head, because totalitarianism is a small price to pay for me to feel good." That's a totally disproportional fucking psycho idea and it makes us all look like obsessive/delusional fucking psychos.
Essential human respect for a rare medical condition isn't "totalitarianism". Empathy is something that people should teach their children. Child raising isn't a right. Some people are just shit at it, and the kid grows up maladaptive, causing problems for others and themselves. That's not a big secret. It's not a radical idea. It's why for most of human existence, all the kids in a group were raised by just a couple people. We still see that in tribal groups.
>Essential human respect for a rare medical condition isn't "totalitarianism".
Yeah it is. The very fact that it's rare means that it's totally rational for people to not waste time on it even if it makes us feel bad. We're not the center of the cosmos. If you had kids, would you waste a shit-ton of time teaching your kids to respect non-Hodgkins lymphoma, rickets and gigantism? No you wouldn't because you don't think those matter. You've just inflated the general importance of transsexualism in your head because of how important it is to *you*. But that doesn't mean shit on a social scale.
>Essential human respect for a rare medical condition isn't "totalitarianism".
No, but forcing people to TEACH it is. The fact that you think it's something people should teach their children, is a political opinion and a moral value, and in a free nation people have the right to transmit their own values, including to kids. Wanting to take that away is totalitarian, particularly when it's just for the sake of forcing everyone to agree with you (which empirically, isn't possible even with hard propaganda and which causes huge backlash eventually).
>Empathy is something that people should teach their children.
This on the other hand is just wrong. Empathy can't be taught. Empathy is a faculty, like smell, or reason.
>Child raising isn't a right.
Yes it is, you're factually wrong again. Maybe you think it shouldn't be, but those same human rights conventions that defend the rights of sexual minorities also defend child raising as a right, in fact even harder. So this standpoint is theoretically fine, I guess, but be aware that it puts you on the same level as other people who want to repeal human rights legislation.
Good news is parents don't need to teach their children to respect every condition individually. They just need to teach them that when they meet someone that looks weird, not to stare and not to be rude.
If they look weird because they're trans, were born without arms, or are just really fucking ugly, doesn't matter. Same lesson for the child to learn.
>Wanting to take that away is totalitarian
No, it's not.
Do you even know what totalitarian is?
Preventing parents from brainwashing kids isn't totalitarian, and forcing parents to teach their kids about biological functions and basic life stuff isn't totalitarian either. It's not the government that's taking control, it's the government making sure that parents don't get to abuse their kids.
>But that doesn't mean shit on a social scale.
Hope you have fun in your computer free world, since you obviously aren't using computers, since that was heavily developed by a trans woman.
>Yes it is, you're factually wrong again.
No, it's not a right. What the hell do you think child services is for?
According to you, I'm sure you think that we live in a totalitarian countries because child services exist.
I like how you apparently completely missed or disregarded the "us" part.
your argument doesn't make a damn lick of sense. I'm not sure I believe your claim in the first place, but even if it's true that would have to be long enough ago that trans women were pretty universally shunned and reviled. Which just goes to show exactly what I said, that respecting it doesn't mean shit on a social scale.
Think of it this way: if computers were heavily developed by a man with severe rickets, would making fun of people with rickets make computers go away, or him unable to invent them? Of course not, it's sheer nonsense.
Not killing off that trans woman meant we got computers.
What you're advocating is killing off undesirables, through social exclusion. That goes against developing a society, and should mean that you don't take part in modern technology.
By not teaching your kids to accept people as people, and to respect others, you're working towards a society that won't accept people who are different, which will often or usually lead to death of that specific group.
You're teaching your kids to kill off "undesirables", like you've been doing, and thus you shouldn't partake in modern technology, since it was brought up by people you don't like in society.
No, I think it was Lynn Conway, or it was somebody else, who was also fired after all their work for coming out as trans.
Stop being so autistic.
Turning cracked codes, and helped a great deal in winning WW2, he didn't invent computer technology.
holy shit kek
This is one of the stupider arguments that you see all the time. Old cis women are not conventionally attractive, but they are in fact women, and don't get their T clocked left and right
I've seen a 40+ year old transitioner on here a while back.
She passed really well. Only issue was when she smiled. Complete and utter manface.
Gay face makes it easier to transition because your muscles and wrinkles are formed from imitating female faces.
b-but at least i have "small" 16in shoulders? right?
i mean...could be worse. but when you have bright pink hair I think you end up in a category where it's easier to "pass" as whatever. still weird, but it's kind of expected in that case
>Child raising isn't a right
remember that if you establish something like this, it can be used in ways you disagree with. this is one problem with the whole SJW crowd
>Child raising isn't a right
Uhh it's a natural right. Like in a hypothetical "natural state" human parents would certainly have the right to raise their kids. Is free wifi a natural right? No.
>b-but at least i have "small" 16in shoulders? right?
Are you me?
How convenient that your random cultural standards that have existed for only a few short generations must be the one natural state of a human being. There's a reason we take kids away from abusive parents, cuntbaskets. It's only one step back to stability.
Not everyone has the attitudes or abilities necessary to protect and raise children. Letting everyone have a go, and isolating those children as much as possible (the nuclear family is inherently damaging to a child's development into a functional and social adult with many role models) has made a pack of immoral and short-sighted adults spazzing constantly about shit that does not effect them in the least.
Like your two posts here.
"Muh SJW" is such a mark of fucking retardation, it's laughable that you make it so obvious. Consistency is the most essential part of a philosophy, faggots. And as "radical" as you think it is to have kids not grow up fucked and immature, I've at least got consistency in my views, and really don't give a shit if my own children were taken from me into the brood pool or whatever ridiculous farce you're imagining.
180cm 15" shoulders. If I lost like 1-2 more inches I think I could be happy.
>HRT 13 months and pass daily
>Always haunted by the idea of being too huge and looking like an obvious boy with tranny voice
never did anything for passing than lost weight, just changed clothes from boys to girls and yawned to find correct position for larynx to speak normally
anyway as far as the topic is concerned
i think the hons shudn't hide themselves but really just learn how to use a proper voice and dress/make-up appropriately. also they could stay out of the spot light to not make some 14 year old's want to kill themselves or closet for the next 10 years completely because of those people.
for me, i always wanted to be more or less girl but that option wasn't ever there, could just wish to turn into that or imagine it. and when i learned about it when i was 13, it was either in form of some 45 year old transvestite guy sucking a dildo with make up and wig on or deep voiced bearded drunk looking guy walking in a miniskirt at the local store. If that hadn't happened i would have probably started hormones earlier or just lived a much less distressed life until starting to get help for the problems professionally because it wouldn't have been such an embarrassing thing.
That depends solely on how deformed face you have got so far.
At that point age doesn't matter anymore, it just redistributes your fat better than for some 40 year old.
Also if your shoe size is 48 and you are 185 cm tall you will have problems.
I dunno how to judge my face to be honest... I think my chin and forehead are really big but maybe I'm being overly hard on myself
Pretty sure my mouth and nose are more on the feminine side though
I'm tallish (175cm) but thin as a rake (140 pounds) and smallish feet (size 10 womens)
Are you me? I'm 185cm tall, slightly thinner and slightly smaller foot but other than that I'm you. Nose and mouth feminine, large-ish forehead and chin all that stuff
6 months of thoroughly wasted selfmedding (spiro doesn't work for me and I havent been eating enough to let fat distribute and boobs grow), ran out of pills now I'm holding my breath here while the 10 trillion holidays are stalling the mail
>spiro doesnt work for me
Iktf, 200mg barely works on me.
I know my T levels are lower but also know that at thr beginning with spiro they were lower for a few months. Then my body fought it off somehow.
Shud get cypro but from where? Ihp doesnt deliver here.
I'm euro so I buy from QHI and I just recently found out they sell cypro despite it not being listed on the front page so that's what's in my next shipment. I was on 200mg spiro and had ~1 month period in the middle where it had any effect.