Ignorant, Oppressive CIS here. When did "Transvestites"

>>3021158

Well then are transsexuals who are pre-op and not on hormone therapy technically transvestites for that matter?

bump for confusion

They didn't, I promise you there are still plenty of transvestites. As far as there being more transsexuals, better availability, safety and quality of hormone treatments and sex change operations has probably helped, as well as the existence of the internet making self-diagnosis and self-medication easier.

>>3021158
Transexuals made a distinction between themselves and transvetites. Transvetite has an image of just being people that like to dress up in the opposite sex's clothing. They started calling themselves Transgender and Transexuals because it's more than just dress up to them, they see themselves as the opposite sex. They don't see themselves as men or women dressing up as the opposite sex, they "are" the opposite gender - at least in identity.

>>3021158
people wanted something to get angry about so they made labels that only lunatics can keep perfect track of.

>>3021160
That depends on what kind of clothes they're wearing (though I'm not sure which gender's clothes would count as transvestitism in that case).

>>3021158
>What happened?
Times change.
Slang changes.
Definitions change.
Language changes.

Get used to it.

>>3021180
>implying self medication is ever good

>implying this is the kind of shit that de-legitimizes us even when the science is on our side

>>3021190
>we're here
>we don't always make sense
>get used to it

O-okay, gay nationalist anon. pls don kill

>>3021188


how so ?

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>>3021158
hey, youre clearly an old person.

when did "hippies" en masse become "yuppies"??

who, what, where, why, and how did that happen?

the same way as everything else

shit happens dude

though in this case, i would blame it on the internet. everybody found each other that way, without ever having to leave their houses, and formed bonds and groups that way. THEN came out into the open.

like you said, you were in the "club scene" so you saw that crowd.

maybe a few transvestites realized they were transexuals, and maybe a few of them just decided to become drag queens, and maybe a few of them just died of overdoses or untreated STDs.

its like asking what happened to beatniks... the ones who didnt die became hippies or junkies.
well what happened to hippies? the ones who didnt die became yuppies or moved to california and became eco terrorists. lol

shit happens, are you planning on writing a book?

>>3021180
Castro is still full of em, I'll tell you that.

>>3021158
Transvestite has nothing to do with transsexuals.

Well, I mean... MtFs wear grill clothes, male transvestites wear grill clothes... That's as far as it goes...

>>3021199
So you're saying that transvestites no longer exist because transexuals evolved out of them,

and you're comparing politically right and economically spoiled yuppie Reaganauts to their politically left and economically spoiled hippie parents.

I didn't think this was a generational issue. I mean, homosexuality has existed for a long time. So has transsexuality.

But so has transvestitism. It's a question of whether transvestites were all fetishists on one hand and legitimate transsexuals on the other, and denying that transvestites have any stake in equality and any sort of biological propensity that makes them justified in their actions, or it's that they're all transsexuals in some way or another.

It just seems so confusing

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>>3021208

nothing is confusing, human beings are simply not robots or clones, we are all unique and individual human beings
we are not meant to exist in any special perfect uniform way, there are meant to be variations

whats confusing you, is that you want to judge everyone as being more or less valid in their expression of their own unique individual humanity

so stop doing that, come at this from an entirely different angle(if youre even still interested at this point), and you wont be so confused

>>3021192
I wasn't at all saying that self diagnosis or self medication are good, I was saying that they probably are contributing to the number of people presenting themselves as transsexuals.

>>3021198
A transsexual can wear male clothes or female clothes; presumably wearing clothes from one of these sets makes them a transvestite, I just don't know which set or if that changes over time or what.

>>3021246
No. You made trans and transvestite out to be apples and oranges like you made out hippies and yuppies. I'm saying that's bullshit and it's offensive to both parties, and I'm still left wondering what happened to change the demographic shift.

when people realized it was okay to have a gender identity that didn't match with your biological sex, it stopped being a "costume". transvestite and drag queen imply costume

>>3021158


Just as a thought experiment:

Can a sexually male person with no hormone treatment and no operation who chooses never to wear female clothes and never goes through with any changes to their life by choice still be a transsexual?

>>3021256

not to say that transvestites and drag queens dont exist just a lot of people who would have used to stick to those things are now trans identifying

>>3021251
Oh. I see what you're saying. I thought you were refering to some brand of panties or stockings that delineates transvestitism versus transsexualism haha

>>3021259

yes technically :) how can anyone say they can define a person more than that person

there are MTF trans who dress and present pretty dykey

>>3021252
a lot of "hippies" grew up to be yuppies. they didnt just give birth to them.

im saying that everyone is human, and humanity evolves with time, its just a simple fact that any history book can prove.
and i put forth my theory that the recent shift was caused by the internet.

IMHO, youre over-thinking all of this to an absurd degree.

>>3021270
By looking at science.

>>3021273
What will transexuals evolve into?

>>3021273
I suppose. It just seems infuriating that one moment someone decides to be something and the next something else, when there seems to be a serious movement behind both ideas.

>>3021277
Blastoise.

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>>3021277
cat people

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>>3021280
It's super effective

>>3021277
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_dysphoria#Definition_and_symptoms

>>3021281

lol

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>>3021279
why should it make you angry that human beings have the free will to change their own opinions?

>>3021293
Because these "opinions" are supposed to be conditions. Things people are born with and fight to be able to be accepted as.

Take, for instance, a gay man suddenly deciding he's been straight all along.

To me it seems a bastardization of all the various rights' movements associated with gender and orientation.

>>3021286
>this alarmist bullshit

There's never going to be a trans-species what have you. Just like there won't be any pedo shit. God damnit, the kek is strong with this one.

>>3021296
Just keep telling yourself that, your special deviance is okay but a pedo is evil, surrre.

>>3021296
> there won't be any pedo shit
at least let us dream

>>3021303
What are you talking about. There's no correlation of LGBT to fucking pedo. There never has been.

>inb4 nambla

They tried to cash in on everyone else's work and they were mostly republishit rapists

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>>3021295
all people are born with a condition
the condition is that they are born into a world full of people that have no idea what they are
and every person struggles to figure this out
some are mostly(but almost never fully) comfortable believing what the majority believes, and they are the lucky ones.
the rest just cant make it work, some are aware enough of their differences to not even try to fit in, and they all come up with their own ideas of who and what they are instead.

its sad and unfortunate that "lucky people" who feel they have themselves so figured out, should react to those who don't with such hostility.

>>3021306
The rights organizations wouldn't allow it.

We've all been against abuse since forever. What are you talking about?

They've all said they're against it. That's why we get mad when people compare us!

>>3021308
It's not that. It's a matter of trying to resurrect something out of nothing and claiming its as valid as stuff that has been proven by science and years of study and oppression.

By your logic, transsexuals might be confused transvestites all along the same.

I don't really mind what people think or do, but when societal foundations are on the line and millions of people fall in line risking their sacred honor for something, it ought to be for something legitimate and true.

I'm not arguing either are illegitimate, but the outliers seem to give fodder to the "mental illness" versus "equal and beautiful part of human collage"

>>3021306
What do you mean?

>>3021158
>people becoming more confident and willing to be open about their gender and the fact they are transsexuals now
>who weren't confident in the 1980s because of all the hate
>BUT WHERE DID THEY COME FROM!?

Are you dump OP?

>>3021158
In the early 2000's you could hear about transsexuals, it was just very rare (like documentaries). Why transvestites overshadowed transsexuals was probably because there are like 100x more transvestites than there are transsexuals.
It wasn't until like 2010 or the late 2000's that more transsexuals appeared, on TV or documentaries (with non-hons, as in they were actually quite young), and the word become known and more commonly used (before if a transsexual committed suicide or were murdered, they'd call her by male pronoun and call her a transvestite, in 2010 the change slowly changed to transsexual).

>>3021316
Like a sizable fraction of the people that visit 4chan, I'm a (non-exclusive) pedo. I make do with lolicon, and am completely against the abusive way that underground child pornography, but if it were legal to view images of naked preteens taking selfies or videos of pubescent couples that decide without coercion to let the internet watch them mess around, would I? Of course.

>>3021331
>lets exploit children's naivete, thats totally not a bad thing to do

>>3021322
>hate

You mean lack of knowledge that it existed? I'm sure there were transsexuals back then but you can't hate something you don't know about. Societal consciousness was trained on other things.

>>3021324
other anon here...Exactly. It's a normative change. But what pushed it? Was it academia in their changing understanding of the psychology and biology? Politicians? Lobbying? Popular culture "conditioning?"

>>3021331
Fuck you. Why are you on lgbt?

>>3021324
I care about the people not the labels. Was it a mass consciousness shift or what?

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>tfw didn't realise transsexualism was a thing until i was 22 because media representations made me think transvestites were the beginning and end of the expression of femininity in male-bodied people
>tfw once i figure it out, i realised that i'm both transsexual and already too old to transition successfully

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>>3021314
>t's not that. It's a matter of trying to resurrect something out of nothing and claiming its as valid as stuff that has been proven by science and years of study and oppression.
why should art and self-expression not be valid? the study of science has evolved along side of the study of the humanities for all of human history, in fact science evolved from OUT of it.
>By your logic, transsexuals might be confused transvestites all along the same.
yes, by my logic they might.
i dont see why a few human beings being confused about themselves is an issue.

>I'm not arguing either are illegitimate, but the outliers seem to give fodder to the "mental illness" versus "equal and beautiful part of human collage"
everyone has a "mental illness" as far as understanding their own identity, because no one knows what "being human" actually means.
whether or not you find the "human collage" beautiful, is entirely up to you.

>I don't really mind what people think or do, but when societal foundations are on the line and millions of people fall in line risking their sacred honor for something, it ought to be for something legitimate and true.
speaking of mental illness... you might want to see a mental health doctor if you are getting this stressed out about a few people wanting to behave contrary to the norm.

>>3021345
>22
>too old

Stop that.

>>3021341
Because I'm LGBT?

>>3021338
Trans was well established by the 80s. Heck, Blanchard's typology is a study from the 80s, and you can't type something if you don't already have that thing established.

And yeah... you can hate something you don't know about. Have you ever even been to Britain!? But I didn't mean it like that, I meant it from the trans perspective, even if there wouldn't have actually been hate, the confidence of trans people - especially in the 80s when treatments weren't as good and they were still taking horsepiss tablets for E - wouldn't have allowed them to go anywhere out of fear of potential hate.

Transvestitism stuff is very counter-culture, people hated it at the time. They thought it was about homosexuality and gay panic and hate ensued. It's not hard for a transwoman to make the connection that

>guy in girl clothes
>people dont like him
>why would they like me since I am male too and in female attire

Societal consciousness wasn't what the OP was asking, he was asking where did all the trannies come from, and we were always there is the answer, we just didn't get out much and press etc refused to give us any press because they knew their readers would hate it out of gay-fear.

>>3021345
>transitioned at 21
>look pretty damn good

You know if you spent less time being a pussy faggot, you'd have more time to invest into your appearance.

>>3021348
A few people are all it takes to change the norm. And since all norms are objectively subjective and rooted more in grouthink than determinism, I would hope the norms would be objectively legitimate.

It's splitting hairs, but I think it's important.

>>3021353
Because you're pedo. That's not an initial in lgbt

>>3021357
> implying there aren't lesbian pedos
> implying there aren't gay pedos
> implying there aren't bisexual pedos
> implying there aren't transsexual pedos
Apparently finding people under the age of 18 attractive is something that only occurs in cis heterosexuals, good to know.

>>3021355
you seem stuck on this idea of "legitimacy" when it comes to human behavior

what norms do you consider "objectively legitimate" for humans?

>>3021360
It's not about under 18 its about prepubescent and adolescent..well what amounts to children, taking them, sexualizing them, and abusing them.

>>3021354
>You know
You know if you spent less time being a douche then maybe more people would like you.

Seriously you always come off as a smartass and that kind of personality makes people not want to be around you.

>>3021372
Fuck you, Sage is nice. Go take your grill pills and stop hating.

>>3021354
>transitioned at 21
>look pretty damn good
>still posts regularly on 4chan

>>3021376
>Fuck you, Sage is nice
If you say so hon.

>>3021380
>chan

>not chin

reddit confirmed

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>>3021376
>grill pills

Sigh...

>>3021372
That would probably be a big deal, if I cared about people liking me on 4chan.

Take my advice or hate on me for saying it. idgaf dawg.

>>3021376
<3 D'aw thank you

>>3021380
>you can't look good and post on 4chan

Are you sure?

>>3021385
>nobody likes you because you're meeeaaaan
>no i like sage, sage is nice
>NO YOURE A HON

hahahahahahahahahaha hilarious.

>>3021367
Who said anything about abusing children? I'm very much against that, I'm neither a sadist nor a child molester.

>>3021376
Sage is mean to most people from what I've seen.

>>3021392
>equating preteens with pubescent couples

please stop

ebebophiles are not the same as pedophiles

>>3021391
>if I cared about people liking me on 4chan
Just because it's the internet is no excuse for acting like a douche.

>>3021396
Yeah that person is always starting drama on here probably because they have nothing better to do.

Best advice is to ignore all trips.

>>3021399
Being on the internet isn't an excuse to be a retard either, but look what happened here >>3021345

>>3021391
>D'aw
<3

>>3021399
This^

Lots of kids like to be assholes and act tough on the internet.

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>>3021412
>if you start transitioning at 21 (or 22 by the time you can actually get hormones) you can reverse a decade of male pubescent skeletal development

>>3021412
That's not retarded that's being realistic. Most mtf's that start after puberty don't pass very well. If anything you should feel sorry for them not insult them and make them feel worse.

>>3021419
That's not what was implied by anyone, it was implied you'd never look good if you started hormones at 22 and that's just bullshit quitter talk.

If you spend less time whining about how ugly you are on the internet and instead put that effort and time into your appearance, I guarantee you'll look a lot better by the end of it. Don't be a faggot and make it out like I was saying something mean or something that I wasn't even saying.

Sorry for being a winner.

>>3021431
you're an egotistical asshole AND you're an idiot

#winning

>>3021431
How do you know they haven't already out time and effort into their appearance? You're assuming they haven't.

>>3021398
Sorry, I didn't mean to equate pedophiles and ebebophiles, I just happen to be both. Adults should probably not be in sexual relationships with those that aren't physically or mentally mature, in any case; there's too much of a risk of coercion or abuse. I don't think there should be a huge taboo about children messing around with others in their age group, though, and as long as there isn't coercion or abuse I don't see any serious issues with them choosing to share what is a normal part of life and shouldn't be stigmatized like it is. At the very least, kids / young adults shouldn't risk prison time for sharing nudes with their romantic partner, that's particularly moronic because not only does it not protect children, it actively goes out of its way to potentially ruin the rest of their lives by branding them sex offenders.

>>3021431
>If you spend less time whining about how ugly you are on the internet and instead put that effort and time into your appearance, I guarantee you'll look a lot better by the end of it

but you'll still have massive manshoulders under your cardigan and vneck

some people are just fucked and this attitude of "work harder, you're not trying enough" from more fortunate people is bullshit

>>3021435
Agreed sage has about as much compassion as Adolf Hitler.

>>3021431
You should probably take your own advice and put more effort in because sorry to tell you this but you don't pass that well sage and that's being honest.

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>>3021431
>convince other people that i'm a woman by stretching my voice unconvincingly, caking on makeup, always using an inherently limited set of hairstyle-outfit combinations that minimise the appearance of my shoulders and mid-torso and also flare my hips, and never ever having sex ever again until neovaginas are both approved for humans and 100% covered under OHIP because i'm poor
>tfw success

>>3021435
I know I've got a big ego, I really don't know why its such a big deal though.

>>3021436
I'm not assuming anything, the fact they're currently on the internet whining about it with a defeatist attitude implies they've given up before its even began. That's retarded.

>>3021444
nyet.

My shoulders are smaller than my gfs, my arms are kinda muscley and big still, but I'm working on changing that - instead of whining about it on the internet.

This is why I am a winner.

https://unsee.cc/budigoza/

>>3021458
That's the spirit.

>>3021451
Yeah, but that still means my advice is golden and totally not mean at all.

#winning

>>3021458
Um, I'm pretty sure neovaginas have been approved for humans for quite some time, did you maybe mean stem cell neovaginas or some other kind of futuristic improvement on what is currently available?

Anyways, just remember that it's only going to get harder the longer you wait. This is coming from a 28 year old, I wish I had had the courage to start transitioning when I was 22.

>>3021463
>nyet.
>My shoulders are smaller than my gfs

i didn't literally mean you, dumbass. "you" as in the hypothetical person whining without doing anything to fix their appearance. there's nothing they can "work on changing" about their shoulders (apart from dressing to minimise the appearance of them)?

>>3021468
my bad i meant those stem cell vaginas, you know the ones i mean

>>3021469
But you said you... ;=; why would you say you without meaning it? that makes no sense

>>3021340
>>3021343
>Was it academia in their changing understanding of the psychology and biology?
Transsexual has been "understood" for about 70 years, so it's not a new thing in academia.

I would think it's because of the loss of power feminists saw (2nd wave radical feminism died down a bit), and because people in general became more corious, as trans "activists" became more visible. It has nothing to do with different criterias or anything (or a slight shift, before pre-op or post-ops were called transsexual, and non-ops transgender, but this changed and now both are transsexual, and the word transgender has been hijacked), transvestites and transsexuals has always (or about 70 years) been ace medically understood as fundamentally different, it's not been a change where former transvestites are now diagnosed as transsexual.

>>3021477
>But you said you... ;=; why would you say you without meaning it? that makes no sense
LITERAL autism

>>3021478
What the hell does feminism have to do with your fantasy of gay oppression?

>yfw misoginy in action

>>3021480
you're autistic for not taking into account that i'm high. check your privilege.

>>3021481
They're talking about the sort of radical feminists that take a disliking to transsexuals, not all feminists.

>>3021493
What feminists hate transsexuals?

>protip: none

Most feminist thinkers are active supporters of the trans movement and gay rights.

I think this guy is just prejudiced.

>>3021502
Trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs). While they aren't close to the majority, they definitely exist.

>>3021528
Then they're a dying breed. Just like MRA shitstains who try to fuck over women and the republishits who try to stop love.

>>3021529
Hopefully you are right on all three counts.

>>3021537
Exactly. Fuck it man. Feminism is inextricably linked with the gay rights movement. Just like with the civil rights movement. Can't stand outlyers on either end who give everyone a bad name.

TO OP

Transsexual have been around since the early 60's and even before. Your ignorance on the situation and the fact you were only exposed to a small part of the LGBTQ society doesn't actually have any baring.

A lot of my freinds transitioned in before i was even born. Some during the 80's and 90's. I've been researching this since the 90's when GRS surgery started to become not just openly acceptable as a practice but the technology improving.


In the early 2000, the technology became widely available and known. People like myself who had always know the possiblity of transtion was something they could do. And the people who always had an idea that they would like to if given the chance, now had access to technology and medical care. previously unaccessible.

For me, in my youth, when i was 14 and i found out you could get boob jobs, and face surgey. that was my dream comes true. When i found out that you could have an operation to actually have a GRS to give me the genitals i felt comfortable with it was the happiest moment in my life.

some people are just fetishists and like to dress in womens clothes. and drag queens are just usually gay guys who like to be flamboyant because they like that kind of attention.

But for a transsexual nither of those things ever resonated with me. and probably not a lot of other transsexuals. And when some of them either had the courage or even their eyes opened that this was now possible to do. More transsexuals became known.

They're also less afraid of coming out now than they were before since most transsexuals usually either stayed hidden, or became fairly successful pron actors in the new ''shemale'' and ''chixwithdix'' porn industry to pay for all the surveys they needed..

you know bout as much about my history and culture than i do of straight men and womens culture to be honest.

Learn. or don't learn. But learn from us. About us. And why we are the way we are.

>>3021581

I'm not op but what exactly is straight people culture?

>>3021529
Yes, which is why transsexualism got more light on them and more info about transsexualism was spread. The TERFs hated trans and spread false information, and kept knowledge from being spread.

>>3021529
Yeah fuck MRA's. Little fedora shits. Complaining about jack shit and encouraging misoginy since 2010

isn't the correct term trans gender for someone who hasn't physically transitioned between sexes?

>>3021648
It's used now as an umbrella term that covers both people seeking medical transition (transsexual) as well as crossdressers, genderqueer people, etc.

>>3021591
I DONT KNOW!

that's exactly what i'm talking about. I guess in my mind it's the whole, going out, starting a family having babies and having straight sex? in a natural order of things.

A straight woman or man, doesn't really understand our life and the need to transition, anymore than i can understand them.

I understand the need for family and procreation. But for me, obviously as a trans woman, i will never get the chance in this life to have babies. And that's kind of sad. But so many natural women can't have babies either.

I guess i see, women go out and men go out and i've seen the kinds of games or whatever they play to be the best looking or physically fit etc to attract eachother.

And for the LGBTQ community, i think it's just less about physical stuff and more acceptance. rather than being the best or fittest to have the best sex and best children etc.