What would it take to modernize the USS Constitution in order to return it to active service? Here's a thought - it sails under wind power and is made out of wood, meaning it makes no electrical noise (meaning can't be detected by sonar) and the wood means it can't be picked up on radar. Stick some vertical launch tubes for Tomahawks and what we have is a stealth destroyer that can't be detected by modern navies.
I suppose its better than hysterical "the sky is falling" threads about supreme court judges.
but then threads about Argentine Special forces Container Ship invasions of the Falklands are better than that.
It's just a shitty 40-gun frigate, m8. It'll get rekt by a proper warship like the HMS Victory.
>40 gun frigate
>with fucking 24 pounders
>built as a cut-down third rate, so excellent sailing qualities, cause muh razee mothafucka
Against your shitty British frigates with their 24-36 12 and 18 pounders, it was a monster. Now go back to sleep Britania, and dream of when you used to rule more than a bathtub.
Just checked a little research again, and it's even worse than I thought...
>30 24-pounder long guns
>20 36-pounder carronades
>2 24-pounder bow chasers
Not even actual third rate razees (actual cut down 64s and 72s) could touch her, and she was fast enough to run down any frigate, much less run away from any liner big enough to actually put her on the bottom.
The six original US frigates changed the way the British thought about shipbuilding - after Trafalgar (when Victory was actually already an old ship), even the British shifted away from large 3 deckers, started cutting down all their old 64s and 72s and started building larger frigates (for them, this was 32-36 guns, 18-pounders). The Constitution and her sisters were one of the main reasons the line of battle started going away, especially after 1812-1814.
Sure, but it wasn't until after 1814 that the Admiralty fully absorbed and started planning around what younger post captains and flag officers had been quietly insisting since just after Trafalgar in 1805 - the age of massive three decker battle lines was ending, and two-three large frigates or cut down third rates were far more useful in protecting British interests than the single equivalent three decker as far as utilization of manpower, cannon and most crucially timber.
30 18 or 24 pounders on a fast frigate with excellent sailing qualities was a potent weapon, hitting well above it's weight class. This was made even more effective with the British and American use of heavy throw weight carronades - a 36 pounder carronade weighed a little less than a 12 pounder long gun, with shorter range being the only drawback. The US and British armament mix of heavy long guns on the lower deck and carronades on the weather deck/spar deck meant that especially in close action a frigate like the Constitution could fight like a 64 but still sail like a 24. The United States, Constellation, Constitution and President (and to a lesser extent the Chesapeake and Congress) had the further advantages of being laid down like a two decker/third rate (instead of cut down or razeed), timbered like a second or first rate three decker (18-21" thick hull, and all of it excellent Live or White Oak, a timber quality not seen since the razing of the Kentish Oaks in the mid-1700s for the British fleetbuilding) and armed like a 72, with 24 pounders on the gun deck.
Initial engagements with the French in 1799-1800 and later the British served as a pretty rude wake up call to those dismissing US sea control on the East coast and Caribbean as just "a bunch of brigs, a couple sloops of war and a handful of overweight frigates".
Well, if the Barbary/Algerian pirates hadn't been so intent on pirating our merchants and selling their crews into slavery while the British and French spent every encounter impounding cargoes and ships suspected of heading to one or the other (if they weren't pressing merchant crew right off our own decks), the US might not have been so gleeful at the chance to get some of our own back against the Mediterranean pirates, then French in 1799-1800 and then British.
Fuck with our merchants and trade, and you should expect yours to get fucked with right back at the earliest legal opportunity for letters of Marque and privateering, if not outright commissions to ill.
Fuck. Nice. Commission to Ill.
Someone photoshop me pic related into an alternate Beastie Boys album cover for License to Ill, but Commission to Ill?
Yeah, planned maintenance is a bit different.
Yet couldn't stop the Brits from mounting an overseas campaign and burning down the White House. Like I said, USN was a piracy operation, not a proper navy that could control the oceans or even its own coasts.
>few frigates expected to hold off the entire British navy
Yeah nah m8. The US navy in 1812 struck on their terms like capturing cargo ships or when lone ships were sighted. They knew they couldn't stand up to the ship of the lines so they went gurrila basically.
And the only reason you were able to accomplish that was a temporary peace with France.
A more recent analogue would be the USN needing to take a breather from WWII to pacify the South African Navy.
I can't imagine what comes out of a childhood like that.
Pic related was my childhood, and it is clearly the superior choice for an excellent foundation to build a productive member of society.
Kids are going up severely fucked up these days.
>the age of massive three decker battle lines was ending, and two-three large frigates or cut down third rates were far more useful in protecting British interests
Now if we could get the same idea through the thick skull of that anon who posts 3 battleship threads every day.
It's not reeds, and it's not the font, because there's no writing, so I have no idea what you mean.
A complete reconstruction out of 100% new materials to make it seaworthy. And a non combat role as some sort of spy-bote or matybe just a propoganda piece.
There is absolutly nothing you can do to make it suited for combat in any regard. Probably not even against speed boat pirates since a few rpgs would probably wreck it.
>go in, reinforce hull with some light steel to make it watertight again
>take out cannons, replace with small arty pieces for ease of use
>gps and shit of course
>reinforce captains quarters
>backup high torque, low speed diesel motor to run it when wind power is not possible
>water filtration and shit to make the thing livable
>btfo commie PT boat faggots with true freedomship
>18th century battleships
She could basically just shit all over any enemy frigate.
But shes still just a frigate. A ship of the line would obliterate her. With the possible exception of maybe some old dated undergunned 4th rates, which is essentially what she and other 'superfrigates' were considered the equivalent to, 4th rates. 4th rates did not exist as anything but depricated relics at the time though, everything was 3rd rates with a few 1st/2nd for admirals to ride around on.
The US did make proper ships of the line later, using the same ridiculously overpowered materials we build the constitution out of. It was basically god mode. We never had cause to use them though, a shame.
so we can't get the constitution modernized.
we've already done it to a few Iowas for Desert Storm, so I kinda think that's out.
So anons, could we take the Montana Class and modernize it? make it a fighting ship? CIWS, modern FCS, the whole 9. can we do it? how would we do it?
No. She was a frigate armed with 24 pounder long guns and 32 pounder carronades plus 21" of old growth Live and White Oak hull timber when British or French frigates of the same day were armed with 12 pounder long guns, or at best 18 pounders with maybe some 24 pounder carronades on the British frigates. Oh, and salvaged/scrapped/repurposed/new growth 10-14" hull timber.
Connie was built like the French or British built a 74-gun liner (3rd rate), what is called a Razee or flush deck frigate. Basically means she was laid down and designed like a ship with twice the armament, then they removed an entire deck and the poop so she sails much better, and carries far bigger guns than any other frigates. The only British or French ships to match here in capability were old 72 or 64 gun third or fourth rates which they actually cut down.
If you want to learn something, start here:
If you want to learn things while having fun, read Patrick O'brien's Aubrey/Maturin series or Alexander Kent's Bolitho series. Horatio Hornblower works as well. Or just go join a sailing club.
>Gut Some of the cannons, replace with small ASHMs (think Exocet)
>Fore and aft SEARAM
>Strengthen the main mast, put a multifunction Radar
>Generator in the basement to power it all
>Add Kites for extra sailpower
4th rates were the old British 64 gun liners, which were the Constitutions of their day (mid-1700s).
The original six frigates, for all their boom, were still 5th rates. Even cut down 4th rate 64s, or 3rd rate 72s, of which there were several at the time, became 5th rates. Just goes to show you the rating system was flawed for not taking into account weight of broadside, only number of guns.
Battleships are way too fat. The kinds of weapons that exist now, and what you can plausably defend against, would warrant an entierly new design philosophy.
A big ship with some ciws and some guns on it for shore bombardment might not be a bad idea, but a battleship.. we just dont have the capability to make something that would actually be worthy of being called a battleship in the face of modern weapons. A battleship is designed to slug it out with the most powerful naval weapons, vs other ships also with the most powerful weapons. It is designed to take direct hits from such weapons and continue functioning.
Her hull doesnt go as far down in the water as a razee, since she was never designed to carry the weight of extra guns. This is where she gets her speed.
The razees other countries produced in responce to the US superfrigates were sluggish, whereas the constitution was also extremely fast.
Superfrigates, as well as the largest armed merchantment, were considered to be effectively the equivalent of 4th rates during that era by naval thinkers. I read it on like, wikipedia or something, m8.
The rating system was flawed however, because ships did not even have standard guns.
Its best to think of things as 1, 2 and 3 gundecks decks, particularly in this era with superfrigates built with such sturdy construction.
in this way, one gundeck for goings fast, two for being not a stupid idea, and 3 for stroking someones ego.
>Her hull doesnt go as far down in the water as a razee, since she was never designed to carry the weight of extra guns. This is where she gets her speed.
The hullform itself is suited for and bears a very close resemblance to a 74 hullform. You are correct that she was never designed to be a full 74, nor actually cut down, but she was not laid on frigate lines just the same. Early reports of her, the United States and Constellation in the Admiralty and passed to British captains all describe her as a Razee frigate. It's the easiest shorthand way of describing both her armament and sailing qualities.
>The razees other countries produced in responce to the US superfrigates were sluggish
They had vastly improved sailing qualities from the removal of topweight alone, could stand closer into the wind and usually gained significant speed. If they weren't as fast as Connie and her sisters, that is because they were often 20+ years old (usually long past due for the breakers yard in age of sail terms) with the limitations that imposes, plus slightly less modern/efficient hullforms and sailplans for being older designs.
>effectively the equivalent of 4th rates
Yes, effectively. But still rated as 5th rate and documented as such. Furthermore, no US captain or British/French 44-gun Razee captain would wade into a fight with a 64 and expect to do well unless they had very advantageous circumstances (wind gauge and enough wind to really take advantage of it + total surprise, for instance).
>The rating system was flawed
No argument there, especially with the advent of British and American carronades.
>Its best to think of things as 1, 2 and 3 gundecks decks
Which is still flawed when considering the Connie as a 4th rate, as she had a gun deck and then the spar deck (which does not count, otherwise 3 deckers would be 4 deckers). Meanwhile 64s and 74s were two deckers, hence the ability to cut them down by removing forecastle, poop and a gun deck.
>in this way, one gundeck for goings fast, two for being not a stupid idea,
It was much less of a "going fast" absolute and more of how efficient the hullplan was in conjunction with ballast trim and sailplan and stays/rigging in dealing with the topweight the ship was expected to carry in armament. Less topweight or a more efficient balance for it means better sailing qualities means sailing closer to the wind and in general going faster in many but not all of the various winds (direction from which the wind is coming).
I guess the easiest way to explain it would be:
>Take a Ticonderoga class design, with the Spruance hull form
>Give it largely the armament and mission of a Perry class frigate, but keep a single 61-cell Mk-41 VLS pack and most of the aviation facilities, but no AEGIS.
>Keep the Tico engineering bay, but gear it higher for the much reduced displacement, so much faster top speed and endurance
What you end up with is a massive ASW/AA/SW picket, patrol and detached duty ship with a huge armament for it's mission and faster with longer legs than most everything else out there. Covers more ground for a Navy without the resources to build a lot of ships, and doubles as a capital ship/flag ship for a Navy without real cruisers and destroyers in a modern sense. You're not going toe to toe with the big boys, but you definitely aren't getting pushed around by any of the smaller guys. That's the basic concept.
You can also think of it like someone took a WWII Fletcher, built it on a bigger hull, traded the single 5" mounts for single 8" mounts but one or two fewer of them, added enough armor to make it worthless to try and hit it with destroyers, but still vulnerable to cruisers, and significantly upgraded the engines, enough to outrun any CL, CA or BB. Then cut it lose as a commerce raider in a bizarro world where there are no submarines or aircraft. It would be a royal pain in the ass.