I'm just learning to use waterstones. I think I do ok but I go from 1k to 6k and I think I accidentally dull it sometimes. after the 1k the knife will cut paper half decent. I use the 6k and polish the bevel but it doesn't cut paper as good.
I'm thinking the 1k is actually easier to use because one or two strokes puts an edge on it if its half decent. So a mistake could be undone quickly. With the 6k I make a mistake with my bevel angle on one or two out of 10 passes and don't notice, or my last 3 passes arn't enough to fix it. Or something...
You saying you go from 1k to 6k just like that? No other stones, or stropping? Also you using a marker to see where on the edge you're hitting?
I love using stones, it is some thing that does take practice. If you're not gonna practice with them, getting some thing like a lansky system is best....In fact a lansky or lansky type clone system is just all around good. Always on that set angle, simple as fuck to use.
Also if you use stones, make sure the edges are smooth and not jagged, or else it'd fuck your shit up.
>>28894398 yes 1 to 6k is that too big a jump? and yeah I used a marker to get the hang of it but Ill use it more even when I got to the 6k. Yeah I have a 220 that I use if its all chipped and fucked up.
>>28894654 Strop? Like with leather? I don't have that yet. I'm trying not to do this thing where I get interested in something so I just spend $1,000 online getting shit for it lol. I'm gunna get a flatening stone next and I'll grab a strop and a lens to look at the edge next.
>>28894920 >>28894960 i do good with stone, and the result on my cheap knife is fine. but i still finding some way to sharpen that bayonet without fuck up the edge geometric i just kind want to get that sharpening tool because it look neat and fast
>>28895066 yeah good for quick sharpen. I tried my kabar and it turned out ok. Edge is sharp but not like benchmade factory sharp (which used to be dangerous sharp). I ended up polishing and honing the edge a bit prolly so I'll play with it when I go to the cabin in a few weekends see how the edge does.
get yourself one of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4w_v8aPo6I
>works on a huge range of angles >maintains a constant angle across all the stones >easy to use once you've gone through the ordeal of setting it up and matching the sharpener's angle to the blade's bevel >shit tonne of different ceramic/diamond stones for it online since this design has been copied by a few manufacturers and they all use the same stone attachment method, search edge pro stone
takes SOME practice but it's extremely precise and does an amazing job once you're familiar with it
>>28895702 Yeah waterstones are not some magical system for making stupid sharp knives haha. The simple modern systems are much better. I just like the tradition of it. Very relaxing enthralling process too.
I have a shit-ton of stones, diamond paste, micron sand paper and stuff from Japan Woodworker. I went way overboard sharpening my woodworking/carpentry edged tools, I need to bust them out and have a go with some knives.
>>28894287 Going from 1k to 6k is a pretty big jump. You most likely have some burr going on after the 1k, giving your edge some bite, but once you remove that burr on the 6k, it will take quite a bit of work to get it down to as fine an edge as the 6k will allow. If you don't use the 6k at all, the same thing will happen relatively quickly just by cutting things.
>>28898017 it is a bit different though, when sharpening chisels and plane blades you need a holder that keeps the angle set as you hone, so the blades are locked into their bevel angle, much much easier than free hand.
>>28897928 Powered sharpeners tend to remove a lot of material. Repeated sharpening will eventually make a knife's performance decrease due to working the edge down past a decent taper, varied hardness, and change in blade geometry. My grandad used to use pocket knives until they were more like toothpicks, so they can be used beyond the points that I had mentioned, but they won't be nearly as good a tool.
I've got a 5-stone Lansky set and another I sort of built with 3 of their diamond stones and 2 fine/ultra fine ceramic stones. I use a Gatco clamp with them since it's a bit sturdier and has more angles.
I used them freehand on some smaller knives and got them surprisingly sharp so I'm thinking about picking up some sharpening rods or stones.
>>28898489 Depends on budget and preferences, really. I've gotten quite into Japanese synthetics over the years, but I learned on Arkansas stones, and as some of my synthetics are wearing down, I'm thinking about getting some Arkansas again. I remember them being slower and not having as much of a responsive feel, but a combo of nostalgia and appreciation for natural stones has me considering it again. The soft ones are cheap even for good quality, and I know the hard ones have a nice compared to synthetics, so it won't be a big deal for me to replace a few stones if I decide I prefer synthetics again. Norton makes some pretty good synthetics that are good with water or oil like Arkansas stones, too. I'm not a huge fan of rods.
THANK YOU FOR THIS THREAD! I've been meaning to ask /k/ about this stuff for a while.
So, I do a LOT of cooking at home. I have a set of Wusthof Classic knives. About the only ones I really use a ton are a tiny paring knife, a 7" Chef's knife, and a 5" Santoku. The thing is, I used to have an old guy next door to me that would sharpen them for me in exchange for a meatloaf or something but I've moved away. Getting them sharpened professionally adds up quickly so I've been trying to do it myself.
I bought a Smith's Tri-hone thingy from Bass Pro and have been practicing on some shitty Kitchen Aid knives to keep from ruining my good ones. I can get a decent edge, I guess but I feel like I'm not getting anywhere near what the pros get. Any tips on how to get better edges? Tutorials or anything?
Also, would it not be better to go from handle to tip sideways? Everything I watch says to sharpen like I'm trying to cut up thin slices of the stone but I feel like that's making it uneven instead of going along the entire blade in a single stroke.
And what's the consensus on honing steels? A lot of pro chefs use them before prep but I've never been a huge fan. They feel like they grab and burr the edge to me.
>>28898835 I did some quick reading and decided water stones seem like what I want, at least initially. Norton's got a pretty nice set that looks to have everything I'd need to start, so I'll get that one soonish.
I use Sigma Power Select II waterstones for shaping my edge bevels (1k -> 6k normally, 1k -> 6k -> 10k -> 13k if I feel like doing a freehand mirror polish).
I like the SPS II stones because they are silicon carbide stones with minimal binder, giving them an extremely high cutting speed (so much so that I sharpen "super steels" nearly as fast as simple steels).
I them set my apexes with a Spyderco Sharpmaker using the F rods (a few grams of force, oil the rods, 5-10 passes per side).
This approach makes it quick and easy to get an apex that will trivially push cut newsprint with and across the grain.
That depends on the scope of work you want the knife to be able to do, whether you need high push-cutting sharoneaa, and how much edge retention you need between touch ups.
Basically, I look at it the other way around from you: what is the thinnest edge geometry, highest push-cutting sharpness apex I can run for my EDC uses without it chipping/rolling or getting dull too fast?
The knife in that video will have no trouble slicing double walled cardboard, zip ties, clamshell packaging, and doing food prep, so it works for me and I get to enjoy the extreme cutting ability.
Not worth it, in my opinion. Way too slow compared to freehand and the precise angle control doesn't matter at the edge-bevel shaping stage anyway. Freehanding and then using a strop or .micro-bevel would be waaaaayy faster and easier to avoid burr formation/retention.
>3/4 to 100 and no one has posted the best answer one of these with a selection of appropriate grits and a leather belt to finish is hands down the best option for sharpening your knives OP. You can put any shape and any desired polish on in about 5 minutes flat.
You'll want to grab a handful of knives from the dollar store to practice on but you'll never go back
>>28899263 actually a finely honed edge will stay sharper longer. basically under a microscope the edge is serrated by the grit it is honed to. the smaller the serrations the less likely they are to be broken off during use, which maintains the sharpness longer
Unfortunately, finish grit and edge retention are inversely related: A coarser edge will last longer precisely because of the larger microscopic serrations, as it will take longer for the points to be worn down to the scallops.
The plus side to a higher grit apex is being able to make cuts with less force and less of a draw.
fuck all that slicing jazz. sharpening is the process of removing metal from the edge until you hit the apex of your final bevel. think about that rather than slicing or any other retarded metaphors. I personally find it goes quickest if i make fast small circles as I go up and down the stone, but the downside is you get a swirly looking end result that takes a lot of polishing if you want a clean look.
the tristone is the best way to start. start on the rough stone and DONT USE OIL just grind that edge until a burr forms and you're happy with the angle. you should be able to shave hair (not well) after the rough stone. try going really shallow, 12-15degrees to set that initial edge. go to medium stone and repeat the process but you you're polishing out the rough scratches here. once you have the burr, finish on the arkanasas stone. spend as much time as you like getting it polished up, and then strop it with white rouge and that should be well past shaving sharp
I've been learning how to freehand sharpen as well over the past month. I'm a broke sunovabitch and I use a 6 dollar combination stone I got at wal mart coupled with a honing steel I got from a flea mart. My knives cut paper well enough for my liking. The only one that I managed to get scary sharp was my opinel. that thing is like a razor now.
hard black arkansas respond to technique more than anything else. you can easily get well past the polish available on waterstones on one if you practice. they're about on par with the coarsest grade of rouge, although IMO the strop is easier at that point
cuts about 50% faster and lets you be more precise. this has been studied. people use oil because it keeps the stones from loading up, but you can clean the stones out with soap and water in about 3 seconds.
Until you are experienced at it, I would start with the coarse until you have a burr on one side, flip the knife over and sharpen until you have a burr on the other side, then move to the medium and fine to refine the apex.
in industrial applications this is always true, although water is the better lubricant Freehand, you are not capable of generating swarf at a pace that justifies oil or water on the coarse stone. on the medium and fine stones its up in the air- result were inconclusive. This is only for knives and only for hand sharpening. But that dude I replied was having trouble getting results, so switching to dry grinding will get him to a tangible result faster
don't need it on the belts and the stone wheel has a water tray. I wouldn't use the wheel unless I was radically reshaping a knife anyway, making a replacement pocketknife blade or a broken tip or something. In the case that you ruin in the edge while reshaping and then take off the burnt edge with the belts.
>>28899519 It may sound counter intuitive but it's true, finer micro serrations will last longer, the blade isn't any thinner the serrations are just smaller. As they get smaller it approaches a single unserrated edge that wont have the a bunch of small edges to break off (dulling)
>>28899752 I get that, I sharpened an okapi, which is 1055 carbon, and a mercator, which is some sort of high carbon (this one got pretty sharp) and my leek, which did get pretty darn sharp with little effort, but the opinel is just miles ahead of the others, I've been using it for food prep the past few days and it glides though shit without even a hint of resistance.
In the chart, TCE measures edge retention (higher bars are better).
Again, the logic supports the same conclusion: A serrated knife retains its ability to slice well after a plain edge has dulled, and for EXACTLY the same reason that microscopic serrations increase edge retention: The points protect the scallops.
Also, the microscopic serrations of a coarse edge tend to promote wear by micro-fracture of the apex, which tends to partially re-serrate the apex in use.
Honestly, as someone who used to use diamond plates, waterstones are waaaay faster for mid to high grit results.
Basically, diamond plates are all effectively coarser than their grit ratings because of the deep and well defined scratch patterns they leave, whereas waterstones tend to leave a finer scratch pattern relative to their stated grit.
This basically means waterstones will get to higher levels of polish much quicker than diamond plates. They also have the advantage of minimizing burr formation/retention, leaving a cleaner apex before moving to a strop or micro-bevel.
I just use an oil stone with a fine side, and a rough side. I use the matchbox technique (not official name ) where i sweep upwards with the blade facing upwards as well, slanting it at a 35-45 degree angle for each side
Unless you have zero reading comprehension, it should be obvious from the study results that initial sharpness and TCE (edge retention) are strongly inversely correlated.
Once again, the logic behind why is quite straightforward:
Blunting of a cutting edge occurs through a combination of microscopic chipping, microscopic rolling, and the slow wear (and thereby thickening) of the apex.
Microscopic serrations protect portions of the apex from these wear modes because the microscopic points protect the scallops, and where wear occurs by microscopic chipping, the edge self-serrate in use.
The effect of points protecting their scallops in extending edge retention is a well known phenomena in macro-scale serrated edges.
The same knife was used (eliminated geometry induced bias), multiple runs were done on each stone, the abrasive media used were random sampled to minimize systematic bias, several sharpening stones were used, and a consistent pattern with well contained standard deviations were recorded.
This is more work put I to bias elimination than I have seen anyone else put in outside of published research literature.
I don't mean to sound hostile but I have seen far too many people in the online knife community who are primarily interested in obfuscation rather than open discussion.
>>28900597 Fair enough. That obfuscation exists for the very reason that the variables exist. Unless conducting extensive tests using wide ranges of techniques and materials, there hasn't even been an attempt made at getting optimal results for each sharpening media tested under various conditions on various blades. All that shows is results on a narrow retention test with a narrow sharpening technique applied the same to various sharpening materials on one blade. There's extremely little in the way of comprehensive results.
>>28900631 Oilstone and mineral oil. Ask your grandfather/father for one of their ones or get a $20 one on amazon. My pop even made me a wooden case for mine. http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Crystolon-Combination-Oilstone-Coarse/dp/B0001MSA5Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455331285&sr=8-1&keywords=Oilstone
Slicing cardboard is the primary testing methodology to test edge retention because it is an abrasive medium that can be random sampled, can be cut without a cutting board biasing the results, and is readily available in the volumes required for multiple runs at each grit.
The purpose of the test was merely to observe this effect of grit finish on edge retention when slicing abrasive media, not to optimize anything.
The results, however, should not really surprise anyone: more serrated edges last longer slicing soft abrasive media than less serrated edges.
The test results show this so well that they actually rank the stones in a more representative grit order than the labelled ratings. For example, a Spyderco M ceramic is supposed to be coarser than an MXF DMT, but anyone who has used both will tell you that the ceramic is much finer. The test results correctly who a higher iSharpness and lower edge retention on the ceramic.
>>28900701 >I would hope that it should be obvious that using this type of cutting and similar slicing cardboard doesn't give a complete picture of edge retention, it basically only shows half of it. On this type of cutting the rule seems to be obvious that :
>-edge retention is inversely proportional to grit size
>However in general not all knives are used for just slicing and so in general the 120 Sigma Power isn't always the best choice even though it dominates the above. If these knives were used for carving hardwood then the push cutting edge retention would like invert completely hence why chisels and plane blades don't tend to be sharpened with such a coarse finish.
I have a 2 sided stone for my pocket knives, and use a steel hone for my kitchen knives. It does the job, however my kitchen knives lose their edge pretty fast on my cutting boards, so im thinking of investing in knives with a higher rockwell. If that happens, ill need to buy a new hone steel too.
>>28900794 >the effect of grit finish And there's the rub. Grit finish will vary quite a bit depending on the technique used on different sharpening media. If edge retention is going to be tested, then various techniques need to be applied to different sharpened blades with different edge characteristics and retention tested on various materials, even if just to test the effect of micro serrations on edge retention. Continuing the earlier large to small scale allusion, there is a reason different types of serrated blades exist. Some do better than others under different conditions. Again, all this shows is a limited result which does not mean the presence of micro serrations always equates to better edge retention.
Yes, because edge retention in push cutting primarily depends on the apexes resistance to microscopic deformation through rolling or chipping (e.g. push cutting wood, plastic, cutting board contacts in push cutting food or rope).
The overwhelming majority of push-cutting tasks involve little-to-no slow abrasive wear, so you cannot really talk about edge retention in the same sense with those tasks.
How will the grit of the finish vary depending on the technique used?
Also, if your later standard is to be applied we cannot meaningfully talk about knife performance at all since none of the existant testing out there meets it.
And again, if micro serrations don't equate to better edge retention when slicing abrasive media, then why do macro serrated knives show better edge retention in slicing abrasive media, and why does the same mechanism not apply at the microscopic level?
>>28900950 I work in a kitchen and I've found that by using a hone two or three times over a 2-3 hour prep intensive period I can get the knives to retain a workable edge (good enough to cleanly slice a ripe tomato with a chef utility knife) for months before it needs to have a new edge put on it.
The knives are like ten dollar sam's club specials, just plain jane stainless nothing special.
In the kitchen, the hone is your best friend. learn to love it. get in the habit of doing it the first time you pick up your knife every time you start cooking and you will be amazed how long an edge will last you.
ALSO I've seen a LOT of people using hones that really bear down on their strokes, and put a lot of force on it. By using only the weight of the knife, and feeling for the edge bevel you can touch up an edge in just a few strokes.
>>28901388 Yup, seen a butcher/taxidermist do this a lot. I thought he was a pleb but I researched it and found its the basic way to keep your edge with a daily ritual. Instead of dropping it off at your local ninja shop.
Also, pic related >a rich anon offers to buy all this junk for me
What makes you believe that test results obtained using cardboard and hemp could not be generalized to all draw cutting?
Obviously push cutting is a different animal because it doesn't involve much if any slow wear of the apex, it is more of a test of apex stability (resistance to microscopic rolling or chipping) than of wear resistance and edge retention.
>>28901638 >I want all my blades to be non serrated people get way too anal about things being serrated. I have a feeling people that bitch about it the most don't even use their knives much, and don't know why you would or wouldn't want serrations
>>28901712 "Lifetime Warranty. Victorinox AG guarantees all knives and tools to be of first class stainless steel and also guarantees a life time against any defects in material and workmanship (save for electronic components 2 years). Damage caused by normal wear and tear, misuse or abuse are not covered by this guarantee."
>>28897881 They demolish knifes. Saw a few blokes out at work who used them daily, and their knives disappeared after a few months.
I've had a go at a lansky system, or similar, and wasn't too impressed. Slows the process down a lot for me, but I was working in an industry where you use a stone at least once a day, maybe more. So you get quick or lose your job haha.
1) It allows you to run a lower edge bevel angle since the micro-bevel is at a less extreme angle.
2) It separates the shaping of the edge bevel from setting the apex, and allows it to be done in very few passes.
This is good for getting a clean, straight, burr-free apex. It's basically way easier than getting the same quality of apex straight off a stone.
3) It allows you to take max advantage of very muddy waterstones that cut fast and automatically minimize burr formation (from the mud slightly rounding over the apex) since you set the apex as a separate step on a solid abrasive or a strop anyway.
4) it makes it possible to keep the knife touched up for an extended period by regularly making a small number of passes on the micro bevel or strop.
As for angles, I have a ZDP-189 Caly 3.5 that I thinned out the primary grind on to ~0.010" thick behind the edge, and run a ~7.5 degree per side edge bevel and 15 degree per side micro-bevel on.
I have a couple old pocket knives and carry at least one every single day. Most of the time they get used for cutting cardboard, stripping wires, or opening letters so I make sure everything I carry gets a couple passes on the kitchen knife hone every Saturday. Occasionally I'll use a knife as a screwdriver, for chopping wood, or carving up some hard phenolic so I take the notches out of the edge with a finishing file, a couple passes on the stone (not really sure of the grit... 260 maybe? I've had for years) then smooth it with a hone. For axes, hatchets, mower blades, ice picks, and shit like that I just do with the 150 grit wheel on my bench grinder and call it good. You sure can't shave your face with any of my knives, but they are all kept in useable shape for everything I want to do.
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