Is this "rule" still being taught to police and MP

>>28670450

>its fuddlore

>links to video proving there is merit in the 21 feet rule

grab a gun prop, or unload your gun, toss it in your holster, go in your yard, have your friend run at you from the opposite side of the yard. when he sets off see how much ground he can cover by the time you have your weapon trained.

you cant live the 21 feet rule all the time, but its something to keep in mind.

>post video that disproves my assertation
It's bullshit, right guys?

>>28671009

1) videos can be staged to meet an agenda
2) it's 30+ years old

>>28671021
>Video starts with "unscripted or unrehearsed"
>"FAKE"
How retarded are you?

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>>28670450
Hey it's serious business

>>28670450
It's still being taught, but, a reasonably fit 23 year old can cover the 21 feet in less than 1.5 seconds. The new way it's taught moves it to 30 feet.

>>28671039
>>Video starts with "unscripted or unrehearsed"

You've never seen "reality" TV?

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You don't let the niggers get you is essentially what he's saying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anjrgxb4K0k

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>>28671021
What agenda? What possible agenda could they be trying to push other than "Distance is your friend"? You just saw multiple demonstrations at full speed, you can do this yourself.

>It's 30+ years old
Tell me about the major advances in those thirty years that have changed the nature of "Drawing a gun"

>>28671063
>it's +30 plus years old
>reality tv
>anything I disagree with COULD be faked. Better disregard all training videos ever
What agenda would there be in cops teaching cops to be careful and not be stabbed?

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>>28670450
No, it's not fuddlore. If you don't believe the video, grab a buddy and try it for yourself, as the attacker and the defender.

>>28671021
>it's 30+ years old

Not relevant. Humans can run just as fast, draw just as quickly, stab just as efficiently, and conceal a weapon as well as they could 30 years ago.

>>28671225

It is relevant but in the opposite way. As >>28671058
said people have gotten stronger and faster in the last 30 years so the rule is 30 feet now, not 21.

>>28671257
>people have gotten stronger and faster in the last 30 years

I'd like to see the peer reviewed study that has come to that conclusion.

Don't go saying things on the internet that you can't prove.

>>28671291

As an informal confirmation, just look at olympic records

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>>28670487
>>28671009
>>28671021
>>28671039
Master Zero has proven that it's all bullshit.

anyone have the link for the remix

>>28671304
>Olympic records should be used as the standard to prove that most humans are faster and stronger than they were 30 years ago

Please

>>28671306
sick trix m80

>>28671306
Telling your friend "run at me and I'll see how fast I can shoot" is not the same as having someone surprise you while your gun is holstered. Which is the whole point of keeping distance

many times our gun community overestimates how effective CCW is.

>>28671291
Why do cops carry .40 instead of .38spl?

>>28671306

I like Zero, but that wasn't even close to realistic. That is straight Krav Maga tier.

The knife guy didn't commit to the attack and as soon as Zero does his Ranger roll out of the way the guy is just "oh ya got me".

1 That's not what a knife attack looks like.

2 The 21 Foot "Rule" isn't a training exercise for a very specific scenario that is somehow super common, it's a general rule of thumb for when you should be ready to engage, is meant to show how easy it is to lose to a knife if you don't commit, and is supposed to be an exercised used to train the initial response to be to engage the knife and retain your side arm until you can safely draw

>>28671545
>Why do cops carry .40 instead of .38spl?

The same reason they carry magazine fed semi autos instead of revolvers.

>>28671306

>rehearsed tacticool roll

>guy with gun was within stabbing distance while he was doing his barrel roll

>coulda just stabbed him in the gut while he was practicing his carthweels for the cheer team

>>28671306
Zero is a top level instructor with decades of training and real world xp. A rookie cop is simpky not at his level. Saying he can do something is like saying you can play ping pong with nunchucks because you saw a vid of Bruce Lee doing it.

Tldr: Zero is a badass and not a standard cop

>>28671306
I think this "Master Zero" played too much Dark Souls.

You don't get invincibility frames in real life. Guy with a knife could easily stop and stab him mid-roll.

>>28671738

this

also even if he pulled that off, most cops, and for the purposes of this board, most concealed carriers dont have that repsonse time

>>28670450
21 foot rule was a CYA invention by police trainers who didn't want to be disgraced by rookie asswipes jumping the gun and blasting nig-nogs too early. Now they have it in the curriculum so they can go "SEE?! IT'S WHAT HE WAS TRAINED TO DO!!" later when the shit hits the court system.

In actuality, if you don't see the knife your assailant has just as much delay as you do because he's gotta whip it out. If you respond to a call and see a knife, you should already have your gun out before you approach.

TL;DR - Trusting cops on appropriate use of force doctrine is like trusting women about college rape statistics. You're just gonna get an earful of gobbledegook.

>>28671765
Not to mention you could only try this if there is enough space, which might not be the case. As far as I know robbers prefer confined and isolated areas.

The truth is that if someone has a weapon and is willing to attack you, you are at his mercy unless you can somehow distract him.

But if someone jumps at you with a knife from 5 feet away with no warning at all? You will most likely end up dead or crippled, even if you manage to take him down with you. A gun and training can only help so much.

>>28671844
>But if someone jumps at you with a knife from 5 feet away with no warning at all? You will most likely end up dead or crippled,

Knives aren't really deadly anymore in the modern age senpai

>>28671842
>In actuality, if you don't see the knife your assailant has just as much delay as you do because he's gotta whip it out
>implying reaction is just as fast as an action
And even if what you said would be true, you would both end up dead.

>>28671842
Implying shooting nuggets with knives early is a bad thing

>>28671883
HAHAHAHA niggers autocorrects to nuggets.

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>>28671866
>tfw health care is so good it makes you knife-resistant

>>28671866

>trolling is fun!

>>28671866
My mom was a nurse in the inner city, pretty much if you get to a hospital >10 min of 80% of incidents you will be fine.

Someone tried charging a cop with a dirty needle after biting a nurse and was shot 4 times with .357 center of mass, he's getting raped in regular jail now and that was medical care 10 years ago.

>>28670450
I'm in the Australian Defence Force and have done a military self defence course - we've had live demos of the 21 foot rule and it was absolutely correct with the exception of one guy who knew what was going to happen.

Guns are scary when they're pointed at you, but knives are fucked (mainly due to how subtle and unexpected they can be) - we were simply taught that if they're close enough to use the knife (and we're not already firing at them), we're going to get stabbed or cut, even if we did everything correctly - our tactics were basically just a means of limiting our injuries to non-fatal ones and ensuring that we're the last person they get to attack.

>>28670450
It's not a rule, it's a drill.Based Ayoob lays it straight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og28YV8DUxw

>>28672240
Wouldn't just running the fuck away be the best option then?

Not even talking about escaping, running away should give you enough time and distance to use your hangun properly. I doubt the attacker will chase you unless he's completly nuts.

>>28672342
You're an idiot.

>>28672342
Definitely - it's a bit different for us though, because we're weighted down with kit and in most of the scenarios that this is meant to apply to, you can't run away, either because you're guarding something or because you're on a ship. In both those circumstances you can definitely run a bit, but I wouldn't think you'd have enough space to get far enough away.

In the live demo for example, every single person (defending) was running backwards as fast they could without tripping backwards. Turning and running would have got them a little further away, but the turn->run-while-unholstering->turn->aim->fire would have been pretty messy / inefficient - missing your first few shots could buy them the time required to catch up.

>>28672341
>It's not a rule, it's a drill.
The Tueller Drill led to the 21' rule

>>28672342
absolutely, running will create distance and time to deploy your firearm

>>28671291
No, athletes have.

>>28672449
He says that the 21 foot rule is more or less a misnomer becasue the original drill is to present that the distance that can be closed is faster than a layman would know but that the trained person does. The 'rule' implies that if there is a distance slightly greater than that the extra fractions of a second could allow for peaceful running away or 'maiming' shots, which is bullshit but still pushed to this day by prosecutors.

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>>28672342
There's a reason why people stand their ground when approached by a threat.

>>28672424
Would you rather get cut in the face?

Your reaction time and draw speed sure isn't going to beat that of an action and knife draw. Better to turn your back and get a few cuts there if you ask me, better chances of actually surviving.

>>28672442
>Definitely - it's a bit different for us though, because we're weighted down with kit and in most of the scenarios that this is meant to apply to, you can't run away, either because you're guarding something or because you're on a ship. In both those circumstances you can definitely run a bit, but I wouldn't think you'd have enough space to get far enough away.
The thing is running away will probably confuse/delay the attacker enough to give you a better chance since he will need to decide what to do next, well unless he's 100% set on chasing and killing you no matter what, but in that case there really isn't much you can do.

And even if you guard something, running guard is better than a dead one.

>>28672546
It would've if that dog didn't beef it.

>>28672442
>>28672342
I should mention that when I say "definitely" I did mean escaping (somehow glossed over the "not even talking about escaping").

If you're a civilian and not trying to protect something, just fucking run; there's no cowardice in not getting stabbed for no reason - if they're well trained or just lucky, you could die within a few seconds of being stabbed (heart, subclavian (collar bone) or carotid (neck) arteries).

Also, as >>28672546 points out, running is also only a good idea if you think you can actually run faster and longer than your opponent - you can probably outrun a drunk bum, but probably not a regular sized guy high as fuck.

Running to get time to get your pistol out could be a good idea, but we're just told to confront them, either with firearms if you've already aiming at them / they're >21 feet away, or with empty hand disarming techniques (basically get a hold of their wrist (by first blocking their arm) and go for face control; get them to the ground and hurt them until they let go of the knife).

>>28672546
>implying standing your ground would work out better for that dear
I'm not saying it will save you without a fail, but it might make your slim chance of survival a little better.

Standing your ground works if you can fight, and being ambushed makes it impossible.

>>28672598
>unless he's 100% set on chasing and killing you no matter what, but in that case there really isn't much you can do.
moving will create distance and time to pull your own weapon or get to one

>>28672598
Sure, I'll turn around and run. Hoping that I am faster or that the criminal doesn't want to chase me. Fuck, you can draw with one hand. Learn some basic self-defense. You just need to keep the knife away from you long enough to draw and shoot.

>>28672671
Might not be enough if you are already cut and the attacker will try to stop you (grabbing etc.)

But in that case you are not dealing with an ordinary criminal but a psycho who wants to kill. Still, it probably gives you a better chance of survival, even if it's still very slim.

>>28672708
>You just need to keep the knife away from you long enough to draw and shoot.
Sure, just that? Sounds easy as fuck.

The attacker will be all over you way before you will be able to do that. As I said before, reaction+ handgun draw speed< action+ knife draw speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9pbQclU9JM

>>28672779
Fine, fuck it. Don't learn any self defense then. Hell, don't bother carrying a damn gun either. A fucking knife is now the god tier weapon because if you surprise someone with it the OBVIOUSLY will not be able to defend themselves before you are all over them.


Fuck you are retarded.

>>28672807
>don't bother carrying a damn gun either. A fucking knife is now the god tier weapon because if you surprise someone...

we're talking about defense you psychotic piece of shit

>>28672342
>I doubt the attacker will chase you unless he's completly nuts.

Outside of self defense, under what circumstances can a someone attack another with a knife and not be nuts? If they are motivated enough to harm someone with a knife chances are they are motivated enough to sprint a short distance, which is all that would be required.

For the same reason you probably wouldn't be able to draw a firearm a engage before the attacker reaches you, you probably wont have time to turn around and reach your top speed before he closes on you. Remember, he is already close top speed before you're turned, and will practically on top of you as you accelerate.

Running might work. It might not. In the event that it doesn't work you have given your attacker your back, which is something you never want to do in a fight, never mind one that involves a knife. If you're facing him you have the option of using your arms and legs to keep him and his knife as far away from your vitals as possible. If he has your back you can curl into a fetal position to try and protect your face/neck/gut, but nothing will prevent him from stabbing you in the head/side abdomen/back/ect.

Knife attacks are nasty business and basically you have to pray that your attacker makes serious mistakes or is weak willed in order to escape unharmed.

>>28672807

Just because you don't have time to draw on him before he reaches you doesn't mean you wont be able to shoot him dead before he kills you.

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Some reminders about what knife attacks are like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AcpGJooT54&feature=youtu.be&t=23

Pic is also fairly representative of what a half-decent slash from something like a box cutter can do.

>>28672844
>I don't know how to read and I have no idea what the hell quote chains are!
Fucking idiot.

>>28672850
>can still kill them
That's what I'm getting at. The other fucker keeps saying that you should run because "bro, knife is too good, can't stop the knife bro". Get some self-defense training, not just for your carry gun but hand to hand also. Then if someone charges at you with a knife you should be able to keep the knife away long enough to draw your weapon and start shooting.

>>28672807
Yes, a knife is a god tier weapon if you want to ambush someone at close range.

Training can help you only so much. All the "knife defense" techiques you might have learned should be used only when you have abso fucking lutely no other options and can't run away.

>>28672949

see

>>28671866

It is fudd lore. In reality, assailants are rarely fast or clever enough to ambush a leo faster than a leo can react. If some retard is attacking a cop with a knife, he's not smart enough to brandish the knife only to stab. People usually brandish without actually stabbing anything. Normal people have a difficult time engaging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTU2pdY2ukU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoB0PTWrLWU
0:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx2iQnYMQfM
0:46

In real situations, officers DO have time to draw their gun. Guns beat melee in almost any situation. Don't kid yourselves.

>>28672973
Totally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IygiK5g88I

>>28672988
bet we aren't talking about brandishing, we're talking about being charged by someone wielding a knife. that's like pointing out that most guns that are drawn are never fired when discussing shootings

>>28673033
Have you ever crossed a road before? You ever think that the driver would accelerate and run you over randomly? Getting run over by a 1000 kg car is far more lethal than getting poked at by a pointy metal stick. A concealed weapon won't protect you from a dangerous driver. Why don't people worry about these kinds of things? Why do you worry about crazy maniacs with knives?

The reality is, knife attackers don't engage with suicidal aggression. Criminals brandish knives without fully committing to an attack. Reasoning and fleeing works wonders against a crazy person with a knife. For leos, a sidearm is more than adequate.

>>28673105
Why do people bother learning how to use rifles and pistols other than for fun or scaring people away?

>>28673105
I don't live in fear of cars, or guns, or knife wielding maniacs. but fear isn't the topic of this thread, the Tueller drill is.

>>28672988
The videos you posted indeed represent how most police vs. knife wielders go, but they do not in any way represent the scenario set up in OP's video.

In your videos the police officers were already aware of a threat and had their gun out and trained on the suspects.

The hypothetical situation is having your gun holstered when someone begins to charge at you with a knife.

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>>28673105

I think you're retarded and have no fucking clue what the fuck you're talking about.

>Captcha 420

>>28673105
I've worked in an adult daycare centered around middleagish mentally deficiant people for volunteer hours for my nursing degree, these were 200 pounds of tard that were well medicated and monitored and even then they had the ability to go from playing with a Connect Four to charging at the nearest orderly do you really think that there is NO chance that the person who pulled a knife on you might be a bit off in the head? Are you sure the person can be talked down? Are you sure you can out run the person? Are you sure you can unholster at full sprint? Are you willing to bet your life
>ib4 no someone will call the cops
wow it's almost like you bought a shit ton of variables into thisyou fucking didn't meed to.

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>>28670450
I'll just leave this here.
Can confirm its still taught and can confirm 21 feet can be covered pretty fuckin quick especially when someone really wants to get at you.

>>28671310
http://youtu.be/FYBWGCFF88s

it is not fuddlore

>>28671225
>why you start downloading mods in Arma

>>28670450
yes it is still being taught, no it is not BS

>>28671257
I would argue against that. Maybe the top performers have gotten stronger but with the decline of physical labor jobs I'd wager that people got weaker on average.

>>28673641
You started downloading arma mods because of canadian natives having a stand off with the cf?

Weird but ok.

>It's faster to draw a knife and stab someone lethally than draw a gun and shoot

uh no
This is not so much about losing the fight, its about the officer never getting stabbed in the first place.

>>28675914
They are not natives, nor canadian, m8
They are injuns

>>28670450
It's that Dan Inosanto guy, I believe he's friends with Bruce Lee, an actor. I guess it's just an act, fuddlore if you will.

>>28675922
ADF guy again - it's not about the officer never getting stabbed, but about the officer not dying - it's basically about telling officers (those that have been trained in disarming and self defence) to not bother reaching for their pistol at that range, but to instead keep their hands empty so that they can properly intercept the knife. There's a very high chance that they'll still be stabbed, but if they can get control of that wrist, at least they'll be able to limit the damage to some stitches on their arms, etc.

>>28671043
A, yes, the Mexican sacatripe, used for gutting sheep and other warm-blooded mammals.

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>>28670450
>fuddlore
Not really, 21 foot rule is dead fucking serious if you are using weak calibers like .38, 9mm and .40.

If you have a .45 or 10mm the 21 foot rule doesn't apply since you will drop them right away.

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>>28670450

>Man starts to run with knife at 1:15
>Policeman begins to fall over before knife man is in the frame.

>>28676982
Please be b8.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/10mm-vs-40-summary-and-ballistics/

>negligible difference in velocity and energy within 50 yards
>same bullet weight and size
>now apply this to 21 feet

Because apparently .40 is "weak" and 10mm will stop the guy no question...
Uh huh

>>28671738
Or just kick him in the balls then leisurely slit his throat.

>>28671291
>>28671304
>>28672486
Lel, this made me think of this
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epstein_are_athletes_really_getting_faster_better_stronger?language=en#

>>28671731
My sides

>>28671564
>train the initial response to be to engage the knife
With what? Your intestines?

>>28671085
with glocks, they just explode, no aiming necessary.

>>28677249
Your goal is to block their knife arm and get control of their wrist - if you can do that (you need to train for it though) then you're either now on even footing or you have the upper hand.

If they have *two* knives, you're fucked unless you're Bruce Lee reincarnate.

>>28672633
Nigger do you not know what a dog looks like?

>>28677843
do you? watch it again Anon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wzAGE4quWU

>>28677037
yes it's clearly a joke anon

How about tazers?

>>28671304
Best way to see how much better steroids have got in the last 40 years.

>>28670450
>It always seemed to be on the level of Fuddlore to me.

>Posts video that shows otherwise
>Apparently hasn't bothered looking for anything else

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckz7EmDxhtU

Adam is able to unholster the gun, turn off the safety, rack the slide, and fire his gun before Jamie reaches him from 20ft. There are some flaws with this simulation, most notably that Adam knows what's going to happen and Jamie already has his knife in hand, but I still think it's a good approximation of a real situation.

It's reasonable to say that someone with a knife has a decent chance of overcoming someone with a holstered gun provided that they're, at most, about 20ft away.

this is why I never holster my problem solver, I just keep it in my hands the whole time I am outside

>>28671009
>>28671021
>>28671063
>>28671306
>>28672342
>>28672476
>>28672671
>>28672708
>>28672988
Here's a real knife attack against multiple officers. Take note of the first guy being slashed once and the blood going absolutely everywhere. Then notice the attacker stabs more people AFTER being shot. Knife > gun in melee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk

>>28677999
Tasers have way too many hang ups, they're best used on people who are non-aggressive which defeats the stated purpose. Ever notice police use tasers on non-violent people but grab a gun against any form of violence?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFUHrenEv7g

>>28678154
>muh 21 feet rule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_6bmrqIsP8
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4ed_1394220450

A knife attack is vicious in real life. I wouldn't feel safe with less than 21 feet of distance.

>>28671866
>time has made knives less effective at stabbing people.

>>28671306
that webm is some WWE tier horseshit and youre retarded if you think thats credible

How to survive a knife:
https://youtu.be/TFr30p0aZl0

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>>28679964
>that fucking dance and music at 2:00
Every fucking time

>>28671043
Here's the problem, sunshine: one hit or one cut may be sufficient to incapacitate or kill you. The fight is on, but you've already lost.

>>28680033
Obviously the best course of action is to not get stabbed/ cut but the mentality of 'Okay this is something I can work through' and at least trying to do the motions instead of thinking 'ohshitohshitohshitohshit' and freezing up is important.

>>28671842
>In actuality, if you don't see the knife your assailant has just as much delay as you do because he's gotta whip it out. If you respond to a call and see a knife, you should already have your gun out before you approach.

>Implying one cant hide a knife in ones hand.

>>28672598
>Turning your back on an attacker
>Sound advice ever?!?

>>28680112
>Not giving yourself that option
>Sound advice ever?!?

>>28671306
You are literally retarded if you're taking a bullshit video where:
A) The defender knows exactly what is going to happen.
B) The attacker goes along with that plan.
C) The whole thing has been rehearsed multiple times.
D) The guy does a FUCKING ROLL.

Seriously, kill yourself.

>>28677249
>With what?
Your fucking hands you dingus.


Or is it better to just let someone repeatedly fucking stab you while you try and draw your fucking Nagant from your $5 holster that you stenciled "Hand Nugget" on in crayon?

>>28677869
Thats a deer you moron.

>>28681749
you probably suck at find waldo too

>>28681749
when you see it

>>28673063
fuckin this>>28673063
>>28673063
>>28673063

>>28681973
>>28682012
Do you not see the fucking long outstretched neck you goddamn idiots?

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>>28676982

That's assuming you can draw in time. You could carry a deagle brand deagle and get stabbed 20 times before you draw it

>>28679869

It has though

>overwhelming police presence
>miraculous trauma care
>people are larger making knife attacks less effective