Is this "rule" still being taught to police and MPs today or not? It always seemed to be on the level of Fuddlore to me.
>links to video proving there is merit in the 21 feet rule
grab a gun prop, or unload your gun, toss it in your holster, go in your yard, have your friend run at you from the opposite side of the yard. when he sets off see how much ground he can cover by the time you have your weapon trained.
you cant live the 21 feet rule all the time, but its something to keep in mind.
You don't let the niggers get you is essentially what he's saying
What agenda? What possible agenda could they be trying to push other than "Distance is your friend"? You just saw multiple demonstrations at full speed, you can do this yourself.
>It's 30+ years old
Tell me about the major advances in those thirty years that have changed the nature of "Drawing a gun"
>it's +30 plus years old
>anything I disagree with COULD be faked. Better disregard all training videos ever
What agenda would there be in cops teaching cops to be careful and not be stabbed?
No, it's not fuddlore. If you don't believe the video, grab a buddy and try it for yourself, as the attacker and the defender.
>it's 30+ years old
Not relevant. Humans can run just as fast, draw just as quickly, stab just as efficiently, and conceal a weapon as well as they could 30 years ago.
>people have gotten stronger and faster in the last 30 years
I'd like to see the peer reviewed study that has come to that conclusion.
Don't go saying things on the internet that you can't prove.
Master Zero has proven that it's all bullshit.
Telling your friend "run at me and I'll see how fast I can shoot" is not the same as having someone surprise you while your gun is holstered. Which is the whole point of keeping distance
I like Zero, but that wasn't even close to realistic. That is straight Krav Maga tier.
The knife guy didn't commit to the attack and as soon as Zero does his Ranger roll out of the way the guy is just "oh ya got me".
1 That's not what a knife attack looks like.
2 The 21 Foot "Rule" isn't a training exercise for a very specific scenario that is somehow super common, it's a general rule of thumb for when you should be ready to engage, is meant to show how easy it is to lose to a knife if you don't commit, and is supposed to be an exercised used to train the initial response to be to engage the knife and retain your side arm until you can safely draw
>rehearsed tacticool roll
>guy with gun was within stabbing distance while he was doing his barrel roll
>coulda just stabbed him in the gut while he was practicing his carthweels for the cheer team
Zero is a top level instructor with decades of training and real world xp. A rookie cop is simpky not at his level. Saying he can do something is like saying you can play ping pong with nunchucks because you saw a vid of Bruce Lee doing it.
Tldr: Zero is a badass and not a standard cop
21 foot rule was a CYA invention by police trainers who didn't want to be disgraced by rookie asswipes jumping the gun and blasting nig-nogs too early. Now they have it in the curriculum so they can go "SEE?! IT'S WHAT HE WAS TRAINED TO DO!!" later when the shit hits the court system.
In actuality, if you don't see the knife your assailant has just as much delay as you do because he's gotta whip it out. If you respond to a call and see a knife, you should already have your gun out before you approach.
TL;DR - Trusting cops on appropriate use of force doctrine is like trusting women about college rape statistics. You're just gonna get an earful of gobbledegook.
Not to mention you could only try this if there is enough space, which might not be the case. As far as I know robbers prefer confined and isolated areas.
The truth is that if someone has a weapon and is willing to attack you, you are at his mercy unless you can somehow distract him.
But if someone jumps at you with a knife from 5 feet away with no warning at all? You will most likely end up dead or crippled, even if you manage to take him down with you. A gun and training can only help so much.
>But if someone jumps at you with a knife from 5 feet away with no warning at all? You will most likely end up dead or crippled,
Knives aren't really deadly anymore in the modern age senpai
>In actuality, if you don't see the knife your assailant has just as much delay as you do because he's gotta whip it out
>implying reaction is just as fast as an action
And even if what you said would be true, you would both end up dead.
>tfw health care is so good it makes you knife-resistant
My mom was a nurse in the inner city, pretty much if you get to a hospital >10 min of 80% of incidents you will be fine.
Someone tried charging a cop with a dirty needle after biting a nurse and was shot 4 times with .357 center of mass, he's getting raped in regular jail now and that was medical care 10 years ago.
I'm in the Australian Defence Force and have done a military self defence course - we've had live demos of the 21 foot rule and it was absolutely correct with the exception of one guy who knew what was going to happen.
Guns are scary when they're pointed at you, but knives are fucked (mainly due to how subtle and unexpected they can be) - we were simply taught that if they're close enough to use the knife (and we're not already firing at them), we're going to get stabbed or cut, even if we did everything correctly - our tactics were basically just a means of limiting our injuries to non-fatal ones and ensuring that we're the last person they get to attack.
Wouldn't just running the fuck away be the best option then?
Not even talking about escaping, running away should give you enough time and distance to use your hangun properly. I doubt the attacker will chase you unless he's completly nuts.
Definitely - it's a bit different for us though, because we're weighted down with kit and in most of the scenarios that this is meant to apply to, you can't run away, either because you're guarding something or because you're on a ship. In both those circumstances you can definitely run a bit, but I wouldn't think you'd have enough space to get far enough away.
In the live demo for example, every single person (defending) was running backwards as fast they could without tripping backwards. Turning and running would have got them a little further away, but the turn->run-while-unholstering->turn->aim->fire would have been pretty messy / inefficient - missing your first few shots could buy them the time required to catch up.
He says that the 21 foot rule is more or less a misnomer becasue the original drill is to present that the distance that can be closed is faster than a layman would know but that the trained person does. The 'rule' implies that if there is a distance slightly greater than that the extra fractions of a second could allow for peaceful running away or 'maiming' shots, which is bullshit but still pushed to this day by prosecutors.
There's a reason why people stand their ground when approached by a threat.
Would you rather get cut in the face?
Your reaction time and draw speed sure isn't going to beat that of an action and knife draw. Better to turn your back and get a few cuts there if you ask me, better chances of actually surviving.
>Definitely - it's a bit different for us though, because we're weighted down with kit and in most of the scenarios that this is meant to apply to, you can't run away, either because you're guarding something or because you're on a ship. In both those circumstances you can definitely run a bit, but I wouldn't think you'd have enough space to get far enough away.
The thing is running away will probably confuse/delay the attacker enough to give you a better chance since he will need to decide what to do next, well unless he's 100% set on chasing and killing you no matter what, but in that case there really isn't much you can do.
And even if you guard something, running guard is better than a dead one.
I should mention that when I say "definitely" I did mean escaping (somehow glossed over the "not even talking about escaping").
If you're a civilian and not trying to protect something, just fucking run; there's no cowardice in not getting stabbed for no reason - if they're well trained or just lucky, you could die within a few seconds of being stabbed (heart, subclavian (collar bone) or carotid (neck) arteries).
Also, as >>28672546 points out, running is also only a good idea if you think you can actually run faster and longer than your opponent - you can probably outrun a drunk bum, but probably not a regular sized guy high as fuck.
Running to get time to get your pistol out could be a good idea, but we're just told to confront them, either with firearms if you've already aiming at them / they're >21 feet away, or with empty hand disarming techniques (basically get a hold of their wrist (by first blocking their arm) and go for face control; get them to the ground and hurt them until they let go of the knife).
>implying standing your ground would work out better for that dear
I'm not saying it will save you without a fail, but it might make your slim chance of survival a little better.
Standing your ground works if you can fight, and being ambushed makes it impossible.
>unless he's 100% set on chasing and killing you no matter what, but in that case there really isn't much you can do.
moving will create distance and time to pull your own weapon or get to one
Sure, I'll turn around and run. Hoping that I am faster or that the criminal doesn't want to chase me. Fuck, you can draw with one hand. Learn some basic self-defense. You just need to keep the knife away from you long enough to draw and shoot.
Might not be enough if you are already cut and the attacker will try to stop you (grabbing etc.)
But in that case you are not dealing with an ordinary criminal but a psycho who wants to kill. Still, it probably gives you a better chance of survival, even if it's still very slim.
>You just need to keep the knife away from you long enough to draw and shoot.
Sure, just that? Sounds easy as fuck.
The attacker will be all over you way before you will be able to do that. As I said before, reaction+ handgun draw speed< action+ knife draw speed.
Fine, fuck it. Don't learn any self defense then. Hell, don't bother carrying a damn gun either. A fucking knife is now the god tier weapon because if you surprise someone with it the OBVIOUSLY will not be able to defend themselves before you are all over them.
Fuck you are retarded.
>I doubt the attacker will chase you unless he's completly nuts.
Outside of self defense, under what circumstances can a someone attack another with a knife and not be nuts? If they are motivated enough to harm someone with a knife chances are they are motivated enough to sprint a short distance, which is all that would be required.
For the same reason you probably wouldn't be able to draw a firearm a engage before the attacker reaches you, you probably wont have time to turn around and reach your top speed before he closes on you. Remember, he is already close top speed before you're turned, and will practically on top of you as you accelerate.
Running might work. It might not. In the event that it doesn't work you have given your attacker your back, which is something you never want to do in a fight, never mind one that involves a knife. If you're facing him you have the option of using your arms and legs to keep him and his knife as far away from your vitals as possible. If he has your back you can curl into a fetal position to try and protect your face/neck/gut, but nothing will prevent him from stabbing you in the head/side abdomen/back/ect.
Knife attacks are nasty business and basically you have to pray that your attacker makes serious mistakes or is weak willed in order to escape unharmed.
Just because you don't have time to draw on him before he reaches you doesn't mean you wont be able to shoot him dead before he kills you.
Some reminders about what knife attacks are like:
Pic is also fairly representative of what a half-decent slash from something like a box cutter can do.
>I don't know how to read and I have no idea what the hell quote chains are!
>can still kill them
That's what I'm getting at. The other fucker keeps saying that you should run because "bro, knife is too good, can't stop the knife bro". Get some self-defense training, not just for your carry gun but hand to hand also. Then if someone charges at you with a knife you should be able to keep the knife away long enough to draw your weapon and start shooting.
Yes, a knife is a god tier weapon if you want to ambush someone at close range.
Training can help you only so much. All the "knife defense" techiques you might have learned should be used only when you have abso fucking lutely no other options and can't run away.
It is fudd lore. In reality, assailants are rarely fast or clever enough to ambush a leo faster than a leo can react. If some retard is attacking a cop with a knife, he's not smart enough to brandish the knife only to stab. People usually brandish without actually stabbing anything. Normal people have a difficult time engaging.
In real situations, officers DO have time to draw their gun. Guns beat melee in almost any situation. Don't kid yourselves.
bet we aren't talking about brandishing, we're talking about being charged by someone wielding a knife. that's like pointing out that most guns that are drawn are never fired when discussing shootings
Have you ever crossed a road before? You ever think that the driver would accelerate and run you over randomly? Getting run over by a 1000 kg car is far more lethal than getting poked at by a pointy metal stick. A concealed weapon won't protect you from a dangerous driver. Why don't people worry about these kinds of things? Why do you worry about crazy maniacs with knives?
The reality is, knife attackers don't engage with suicidal aggression. Criminals brandish knives without fully committing to an attack. Reasoning and fleeing works wonders against a crazy person with a knife. For leos, a sidearm is more than adequate.
The videos you posted indeed represent how most police vs. knife wielders go, but they do not in any way represent the scenario set up in OP's video.
In your videos the police officers were already aware of a threat and had their gun out and trained on the suspects.
The hypothetical situation is having your gun holstered when someone begins to charge at you with a knife.
I think you're retarded and have no fucking clue what the fuck you're talking about.
I've worked in an adult daycare centered around middleagish mentally deficiant people for volunteer hours for my nursing degree, these were 200 pounds of tard that were well medicated and monitored and even then they had the ability to go from playing with a Connect Four to charging at the nearest orderly do you really think that there is NO chance that the person who pulled a knife on you might be a bit off in the head? Are you sure the person can be talked down? Are you sure you can out run the person? Are you sure you can unholster at full sprint? Are you willing to bet your life
>ib4 no someone will call the cops
wow it's almost like you bought a shit ton of variables into thisyou fucking didn't meed to.
I'll just leave this here.
Can confirm its still taught and can confirm 21 feet can be covered pretty fuckin quick especially when someone really wants to get at you.
>It's faster to draw a knife and stab someone lethally than draw a gun and shoot
This is not so much about losing the fight, its about the officer never getting stabbed in the first place.
ADF guy again - it's not about the officer never getting stabbed, but about the officer not dying - it's basically about telling officers (those that have been trained in disarming and self defence) to not bother reaching for their pistol at that range, but to instead keep their hands empty so that they can properly intercept the knife. There's a very high chance that they'll still be stabbed, but if they can get control of that wrist, at least they'll be able to limit the damage to some stitches on their arms, etc.
Not really, 21 foot rule is dead fucking serious if you are using weak calibers like .38, 9mm and .40.
If you have a .45 or 10mm the 21 foot rule doesn't apply since you will drop them right away.
>Man starts to run with knife at 1:15
>Policeman begins to fall over before knife man is in the frame.
Please be b8.
>negligible difference in velocity and energy within 50 yards
>same bullet weight and size
>now apply this to 21 feet
Because apparently .40 is "weak" and 10mm will stop the guy no question...
Your goal is to block their knife arm and get control of their wrist - if you can do that (you need to train for it though) then you're either now on even footing or you have the upper hand.
If they have *two* knives, you're fucked unless you're Bruce Lee reincarnate.
>It always seemed to be on the level of Fuddlore to me.
>Posts video that shows otherwise
>Apparently hasn't bothered looking for anything else
Adam is able to unholster the gun, turn off the safety, rack the slide, and fire his gun before Jamie reaches him from 20ft. There are some flaws with this simulation, most notably that Adam knows what's going to happen and Jamie already has his knife in hand, but I still think it's a good approximation of a real situation.
It's reasonable to say that someone with a knife has a decent chance of overcoming someone with a holstered gun provided that they're, at most, about 20ft away.
Here's a real knife attack against multiple officers. Take note of the first guy being slashed once and the blood going absolutely everywhere. Then notice the attacker stabs more people AFTER being shot. Knife > gun in melee.
Tasers have way too many hang ups, they're best used on people who are non-aggressive which defeats the stated purpose. Ever notice police use tasers on non-violent people but grab a gun against any form of violence?
>that fucking dance and music at 2:00
Every fucking time
Obviously the best course of action is to not get stabbed/ cut but the mentality of 'Okay this is something I can work through' and at least trying to do the motions instead of thinking 'ohshitohshitohshitohshit' and freezing up is important.
>In actuality, if you don't see the knife your assailant has just as much delay as you do because he's gotta whip it out. If you respond to a call and see a knife, you should already have your gun out before you approach.
>Implying one cant hide a knife in ones hand.
You are literally retarded if you're taking a bullshit video where:
A) The defender knows exactly what is going to happen.
B) The attacker goes along with that plan.
C) The whole thing has been rehearsed multiple times.
D) The guy does a FUCKING ROLL.
Seriously, kill yourself.
Your fucking hands you dingus.
Or is it better to just let someone repeatedly fucking stab you while you try and draw your fucking Nagant from your $5 holster that you stenciled "Hand Nugget" on in crayon?
That's assuming you can draw in time. You could carry a deagle brand deagle and get stabbed 20 times before you draw it