>>28668260 If you accept that it would take energy output on the scale of the Tsar Bomba to seriously affect more than a quarter of the country with temporary effects (EMPs do not permanently destroy more than a very small portion of ICB applications, and even that requires ridiculous power output) and also accept the simple fact that all US defense and nuclear forces are EMP hardened, meaning no power executing such an attack can do so and not expect swift and terrible reciprocity, and then further accept that it would require multiple massive warheads (currently beyond the limits anyone has mounted to any ICBM or SLBM ever) plus several dozen other missiles with penaids to be sure of saturating missile defense above the CONUS, sure. It could totally happen.
Meanwhile, in the real world, this concern is pretty far down the list of realistic scenarios.
Outside of entertaining fiction, this scenario was little more than Newt Gingrich's attempt to scare the shit out of people and ride that shit wave into the White House.
1. yes our power grid is vunerable, but not as bad as most post apoc stuff makes it out to be, the carrington event and the starfish prime shot are the most 2 reffered to events when considering effects of EMP. Keep in mind that though our infrastructure is vunerable to EMP and we can build better protections against it, we cannot protect against something like carrington.
2. regarding EMP, if your shit isnt plugged in or attached to antenna at the time of an event then it will most likely be fine.
3. most cars will be fine, yes even new cars with computers
4. If you are prepared for other, much more probable emergencies, like a fucking snowstorm, or hurricane, you will be much better off if EMP happens. You should prepare for most likely emergencies FIRST then worry about fantasy shit much much later.This isnt the kind of thing you really plan or prepare for and trying to is an excercise in futility. Literally EMP and Nuclear war should be just above "Alien invasion" at the bottom of your "prep for" list.
>>28668469 Maybe, but the stock exchange itself is mostly a show - most trading occurs at other buildings around the city or elsewhere, using dedicated fiber optic communications and software bots doing the trading.
>>28668465 Oh, well you better go and tell the Russians and Chinese to stop making and mounting penaids, then. Clearly, thanks to your knowledge and expertise, they are no longer required.
Meanwhile, in the real world, missile intercepts are a thing. While not hugely effective at stopping any sort of large scale attack, a significant portion of warheads would be intercepted. This means that your massive, super expensive and super secret EMP warhead missile (of which you need over a dozen to even temporarily hiccup the US) can be intercepted, requiring you to build even more of them to be assured of full coverage, plus penaids.
Only an idiot plans for 100% success rate, especially when the enemy has publicly tested systems which can intercept ballistic missiles.
>>28668469 Such a weapon detonated at ground or airburst level would destroy New York long before any EMP was worried about. EMPs are high altitude detonation nuclear weapons, and while you can simulate one with enough power and infrastructure, the idea that someone can detonate one anywhere close to an inhabited area without the infrastructure and power draw being noticed is fantasy. Furthermore, the pulse range of such a thing at low atmosphere is abysmal.
>>28668537 I'm sure they're very heavily insulated against external wear - keep in mind that these are billion dollar companies that are having fiber custom installed (with permission from the city) to be as direct as possible to trading hubs - because everything's digital and automated, microseconds of advantage matter.
>>28668427 >Meanwhile, in the real world, this concern is pretty far down the list of realistic scenarios. http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-01-07/russians-have-learned-how-to-hack-power-grids
Not an EMP, but comes pretty close in terms of potential damage that can be received. The only reason those grids went back up is because terminally disabling them wasn't an intention.
>>28668601 >http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-01-07/russians-have-learned-how-to-hack-power-grids >Russians temporarily bring down a small portion of the Ukrainian power grid >which was designed at the basic level to be almost identical to their own >in a neighboring country >which they have fully penetrated with human assets and technology for decades
And this equates to the Russians bringing down the entire US power grid how?
>>28668594 I'm sure, my only issue with fiber being, if you take more than 10% give or take of the strands from a bundle then the whole system cuts out, say you've got 1500 strands in a large bundle, take 200 and crack them and suddenly miles of cable become completely useless. Not to mention how heat sensitive they are. I'm not complaining, just hoping to shed light on how delicate fiber is. Plus even a temporary hiccup in trading effectively ruins massive company's. Hell walking into the stock exchange with a bomb could cause some damage I'm sure
>If you accept that it would take energy output on the scale of the Tsar Bomba to seriously affect more than a quarter of the country with temporary effects (EMPs do not permanently destroy more than a very small portion of ICB applications, and even that requires ridiculous power output)
it could be done with as little as 5 megatons. The bomb isnt what is affecting electronics, its the electrons being knocked out of the ionoshpere and collecting anywhere that it can thats the problem.
>and also accept the simple fact that all US defense and nuclear forces are EMP hardened, meaning no power executing such an attack can do so and not expect swift and terrible reciprocity, and then further accept that it would require multiple massive warheads (currently beyond the limits anyone has mounted to any ICBM or SLBM ever) plus several dozen other missiles with penaids to be sure of saturating missile defense above the CONUS.....
not all of our defenses are hardened and currently to much of our defense communications infrastructure depends on unprotected civilian equipment.
AT&T longlines no longer exists. It would be a real problem but you're right about a full scale attack on the US being improbable and extremely difficult.
>pretty far down on the list
I agree, people worry about this shot when there are much more pressing issues
>newt gingrichs attempt
incorrect, the report which you are reffering to came out the day before 9/11
that wasnt even an election year, and although newt did the forward for forstchens book, it was hardly enough of a hot button political issue to propel newt into the whitehouse, though he did use it as talking points to batter congress for doing nothing to get the civilian infrastructure to harden their assets
>>28668738 >http://www.activistpost.com/2014/05/congress-learns-emp-could-kill-90-of.html >Dr. Peter Pry, a member of the Congressional EMP Commission, testified that an EMP event whether from a rogue state or the sun could wipe out 90% of America’s population. >“Natural EMP from a geomagnetic super-storm, like the 1859 Carrington Event or 1921 Railroad Storm, and nuclear EMP attack from terrorists or rogue states, as practiced by North Korea during the nuclear crisis of 2013, are both existential threats that could kill 9 of 10 Americans through starvation, disease, and societal collapse,” Pry told the committee.
Uh huh. I read the actual report and it certainly said that.
>>28668803 It's only irrational if the finger can be pointed at you. You can let a third party do the actual deed. "Oh they stole that nuke we didn't give it to them we're so sad this happened." You can have large rockets launched from container ships, after all.
>>28668698 I'm not the guy you were replying to, but I have an honest question.
Are you a pathological liar, or are you just dumb? Did you post this source, having read it, hoping that no one would read it; or did you just not read it?
The only reference to casualities from an EMP event is in the preface, where the authors say "many people may die" due to the destruction of infrastructure. No allusion at all to that 80-90% statistic you parroted earlier.
>>28668866 Gee I'd love to see some sources to back up this claim of yours that this doctor testifying to Congress is just some fringe whacko. You know, since he's got his scientific doctorate, and is an expert chosen to research this matter, and you aren't.
>>28668899 The simple fact that NONE of his testified views made it into the consensus report to congress, and of all the doctors that testified at that hearing, he's literally the ONLY one running around like chicken little.
It's pretty goddamn obvious to anyone with half a brain he had a hobby horse.
>>28668636 All power grid networks are organized in fundamentally the same fashion, and share exactly the same software and human vulnerabilites. All it takes to monitor their operational status is just one breach, all it takes to shut one down is one coordinated attack. The point of the matter is, such an attack has been unprecedented until now, so it's entirely within the realm of possibility.
>>28668934 >>28668934 anything i prefer nonfiction as of late as far as books go but ill read anything interesting like the last book i read was voices from chernobyl and roadside picnic International politics, nuclear shit is always fascinating to me, maybe military stuff as well or history especially
On Thermonuclear War By Herman Kahn On Limited Nuclear War in the 21st Century by Jeffrey Larsen and Kerry Kartchner The Evolution of Nuclear Strategy, Third Edition by Lawrence Freedman Russian Strategic Nuclear Forces by Pavel Podvig Nuclear Statecraft: History and Strategy in America's Atomic Age by Francis J. Gavin Eating Grass: The Making of the Pakistani Bomb by Feroz Khan Prevention, Pre-emption and the Nuclear Option: From Bush to Obama by Aiden Warren Nuclear Deterrence in the 21st Century: Lessons from the Cold War for a New Era of Strategic Piracy by Thérèse Delpech Analyzing Strategic Nuclear Policy by Charles L. Glaser Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb by Richard Rhodes Nuclear Strategy in the Modern Era: Regional Powers and International Conflict by Vipin Narang Building the H Bomb: A Personal History By Kenneth W Ford
>all these idiots in this thread on both sides of the argument arguing about shit they don't understand and making bold claims without any proper citing of sources >worse than fucking watching people argue about climate change
I have read that entire thing. Among the highlights: >only 10% of vehicles Made after 2000 and currently operating would suffer malfunctions requiring driver intervention >0% of vehicles not turned on would be disabled >of the 10% of newer vehicles that malfunctioned, only ~20% would be permanently disabled >traffic lights would be almost universally disabled (meaning 99.9% of the driving population of kentucky would die at the first intersection they got to. Seriously, these people are 9999x more retarded behind the wheel than they are normally)
>>28668260 If you think that is scary then don't read Alas Babylon by Pat Frank. If you are looking for a good post apocalypse series i recommend starting with Going Home by Angry American. Just be ready for the mean old fuck that goes by the callsign "blanket"
>tfw no one will ever write a book about grunts in Cold War Europe after the nukes go off Everything will always be waaah, my civvies. What about the poor shits that have to fight Soviet tanks driving through a radioactive ashcloud?
>>28672531 Yes that is the one. Like i said I highly recommend the A. American book. My second recommendation is James Wesley, Rawles. While i did not enjoy these books as much as the A. American they were still ok. Rawles series follows different characters in the same universe so you don't have to read them in order. Patriots was my favorite with Liberators being a distant 2nd. Expatriates was... ok i guess. I have not read Founders yet
>>28672599 There's not a whole lot of factual documents to base the idea off. Nobody has actual experience with it, obviously, and similarly there's zero real-world experience on the use of tactical nukes. You can run the numbers and the theory for fourty years, but if the European theater had gone thermonuclear hot, I suspect the reality of tactical weapon usage would have been a lot different than expected.
What I personally do know is that on the NATO side of things, tactical weapons were almost wholly left to the discretion of the theatre commanders, so if you wanted to make a semi-accurate story, you'd have to pin down an exact time and do a lot of research on who the commanders were, and what their thinking was. Some might use direct strikes in preparation for counter-offensives, some might target rear echelon logistics, some might just open up with fucking everything, to prevent losing them in pre-emptive strikes, some might hold back to use on targets of opportunity.
>>28672891 On the contrary, I've read a lot of books in the genre and it's one of the best, along with Collision Course by Crawford.
Among the worst are Patriots by Rawles and Lights Out by Crawford which both go completely into the realm of absurd wank-fest. Anything Rawles writes should be understood through the lens of his family being property salesmen in Idaho and the surrounding states. The whole "American Redoubt" concept he loves to push is literally to get rubes to buy land/houses where his family can sell it to them.
if an emp could actually do that much damage, it would be over. no point in survival. just go kill people you think will resort to extreme degeneracy until you get taken out yourself. try to give the people actually prepared a little help by taking out the trash.
we can only hope emp's and nukes are not real because the elite have fucked us into submission by making us so reliant on fragile infrastructure. we really need to start this civil war BEFORE the economy collapses or the grid is compromised. hopefully fema camps are actually real and all the degenerates get rounded up so we dont have to deal with them.
>>28673009 Am I the only one that actually hates the survivalist wank session style books?
>Dr. Mohammed M. Mohammed is a nuclear scientist with nukes and stuff at a secret government lab, when one day he gets a new assistant from Australia, whose pet kangaroo accidentally trips onto the nuclear launch button! Government breaks down, the economy crashes, oil prices rise, and other things like that we just copy-paste from Amazon pages about similar themes, and all seems lost! That is, unless retired Col. Steele Bronzeman, ex-Navy Delta Seal Ranger, who conspicuously carries a backpack full of MREs around with him at all times, can weld together a working .50-cal from his kid's braces and save the Western civilization in this idyllic cookie-cutter apple pie portion of America!
Would be better and more readable if the book was just about some average fuck who gets caught up in a bad situation at random and learns to survive by trial and error—or more realistically, by watching others around him fuck up and die in preventable ways.
>>28673112 That was around a long time before this book was ever published. Hell, they only mention ammo a bit and it's that the smaller calibers were more useful in the long run (but .17hmr is also mentioned) since all the big game was killed quick. Which is how it went in the Great Depression.
But that idea was in books published long before it too.
>>28673276 You'd love Collision Course by David Crawford then. The drunkard average Joe main character gets pulled to help out his neighbors and put down the bottle so that he can step up and do the things needing to be done. Meanwhile the other main character, a kommando with his bug-out ATV who's been waiting for shtf and to bug out to his stash, just fucks things up for everyone around him and himself as well. (He's not stated to browse /k/ but he'd fit perfectly among the friendless mall ninjas here.)
There's no epic battle at the end, there's no ex-Delta member saving the day, hell it doesn't even say what the shtf going on really is, just that things are getting expensive quick and people's ugly sides are coming out. The main protagonist isn't a survivalist nor does he have some rare amazing skill, he's just a poor white trailer-dwelling drunk who raises some tomatoes and knows how to do basic shooting and fixing of things.
>>28668636 Proof of concept. It's like using a Chevy to test spike strip effectiveness. You can extrapolate that the spike strip will work on most car makes, until manufacturers add run-flat tires as standard equipment.
>>28668673 North Korea, maybe. You can bet ISIS would give their collective left nut for the capability to do something like that. Figure that a disgruntled nuclear state provides ISIS with back channel tech support and maybe even a turn-key set up. Ideally, one that allows plausible deniability.
Figure a couple of Scuds, couple of EMP-optimized warheads, whatever telemetry/control gear is necessary, and load it all on some POS freighter. Sail into the Caribbean, unmask, launch, and collect 72 virgins.
>>28674572 >>28674572 Yeah North Korea is sane as heck despite what the media says. They are all about regime survival. If they could one-shot the US without nukes plastering them they'd probably do it but their typical threats are just so that they can followup by playing nice and asking for food aid.
reminder that the EMP that a system receives is entirely dependent on the antenna length that it possesses, which is to say the total continuous length of wire connected to said electronics. most modern electronics don't have sufficient wiring to be hit by any meaningful pulse, which is why power grids are so badly affected. your phone would be fine, and so would your car and your computer if it's not plugged in, since the total wiring length in them is usually well under a meter. power grids have miles and miles of conductive antenna to receive EM flux, and thus are the worst affected. tl;dr most things would be fine
>>28668260 Nuclear war ? yes, around 2030, Israel will perform a false flag attack on Europe and maybe the eastern US coast. NATO and Russia will follow, misguided by the false provenance of the missiles. This is to get rid the old white occidental empire, suppress any Christianity left and go to global government backed with a gold based currency. Consequences ? Bronze age for everyone. Why ? All grids are controlled and maintained with cost efficiency in mind : a single element can cause a failure. Every major function and nodes are in big cities. Logistical chains are stretched, just-in-time. This will get us to medieval times, but the problem is that all easy to get resources : iron, gold, minerals are already gone, without highly efficient industry it's impossible to get the left-overs.
"As a scientist, I judge the nuclear winter theory to be sloppy piece of work, full of gaps and and unjustified assumptions. As a human being, I hope fervently that it is right... since I am a scientist dedicated to truth, I will criticize nuclear winter theory as harshly as I would criticize any other half-baked scientific theory."
- Freeman Dyson's book Infinite in All Directions
Nuclear winter is a concept touted by uneducated humanities majors. No one is willing to invest or properly model nuclear winter because no one wants to be responsible for proving it wrong. Its better for fags in urban environments if humanity believes nuclear winter is real.
>>28679393 Understand most of these books are written by New Yorkers. When they say things like "nationwide EMP" understand that NYC is their entire world. NYC is their nation. William Forstchen was born right next to NYC.
>>28668469 It's funny that you say that, because I was cleaning out some boxes, and found an old Popular Mechanics magazine with this article. I guess it's not really a matter of if, but when. Pic 1 of 3
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