Let's have a HANDGUN caliber thread discussion (note - I said discussion, not argument) about the pros and cons vs each other?
Let's first concede that
>10 millimemer is hard to beat, but is still a meme round
>.40 is shit
All handguns are underpowered and the real world differences are negligible.
There are many instances of crackheads getting shot in the head with every single caliber and still cracking out
.22lr fired from handguns by far still holds the record for most non military related deaths.
and this is why you don't carry 147gr 9x19, especially with short barrels.
With a small number of exceptions (mostly magnum cartridges and the .357) All handguns are too weak to cause hydrostatic shock, and must get their killing power by causing massive bleeding, or by striking major structures (arteries, organs, spine, etc). The only benefit of caliber that you'll see in real life usage is increasing the diameter of the bullet, increasing the chance of hitting those structures. With modern hollow point rounds that expand reliably and to a large diameter, there is not much difference in real world lethality between say a 9mm and a .45. As a result, by far the most important aspect of handgun lethality and stopping power is the accuracy and skill of the shooter.
Watch this video for a detailed explanation of bullet trauma, including footage of people taking handgun rounds to the chest and simply walking away 2 minutes later.
For a given safe level of performance (IE same CUP readings for chamber pressure) the load with the heavier bullet (which will by necessity be slower) will have better penetration performance.
But while we do want an exit wound because people bleed out of two holes faster than one, the slower velocity, especially out of short barreled pistols, of the heaviest bullet choice can limit expansion, and there's no points for retained velocity on exit, a 124 grain JHP that fully blooms and barely exits is going to perform better than a 147 grain JHP that only partially blooms but exits with authority.
Granted you put a car windshield between him and you and you might find yourself wishing you'd had the better penetrating round, but most of the time it's just street clothes between you and him.
It is momentum, frontal area (expansion counts), and sectional density that matters, not bullet weight.
Heavier bullets carry more momentum for a given CUP chamber pressure reading, everything else being the same, but you can add momentum by adding velocity too.
APFSDS is the king of frontal area and sectional density, which is why it is so effective, but the slower American ammo actually performs better than the faster German ammo, because of the weight factor.
More granez = more kinetic energy. However, this is trumped by biology. None of the common handgun rounds (except magnums) deliver enough energy to rupture organs, create a large permanent cavity, create hydrostatic shock, etc, like rifle rounds easily do. So even though a .45 has more energy then a 9mm, it's not enough of a difference to matter against an actual, living target.
Without that kind of massive energy trauma, all thats left is the direct wound. That's why HP ammo is designed to mushroom as large as possible. Larger bullet=more likely to hit something vital.
"Stopping power" is thus largely myth, or at least vastly misunderstood. It relies on either hitting something critical (get good aimz) or the psychological shock and pain of being shot. Since in a self defense situation, the perp may be high, drugged, or just full of natural adrenaline, you can't rely on pain to stop them.
End of story is get the gun and caliber that you, personally, have the best results with, and practice the fuck out of it. Caliber matters, but it's completely trivial compared to aim and proficiency with your firearm of choice - whatever that may be.
What is a good SD round for Euros, seeing as HPs are legal only for sporting purposes? Sadly kebab removal is frowned upon as a sport.
What would one carry? A flat nose soft point with as much powder behind it as it gets?
Large diameter FMJ. Flat nose might have more crush, but it probably isn't that big of a deal.
.44 special, .45 ACP, etc.
Consider soft point, poly tip, or smash head, if hollow point is banned by name.
If you load .45 ACP really hot, you get .45 Super.
.45 Super can be fired in almost any .45 ACP pistol with a spring change, and it's just as powerful as 10mm.
.45 ACP is the only pistol cartridge to shoot down a plane.
It has more to do with "has a cavity in the tip of the projectile to increase wounding potential". Which itself is bullshit rooting back to two sources, the Hague convention and people making laws knowing fuckall about the subject they decide upon and being hurrrrtards in general. You know, assault shroud clipazines etc.
If you don't hit a big blood vessel in the lungs, or break a bunch of bone, that dude can fight for like an hour.
Less than you think, I've shot deer with the 230 grain .45s and the 124 grain JHPs, the .45s do a better job of breaking bone and do end up about 30% larger in diameter, worst case.
147gr HST out of a Shield here, looking forward to trying pic related once it's released. (pray there are 50rd boxes, 20rd boxes are always overpriced)
Nigga, shut the fuck up. In your idiot hypothetical, you'll need to make the decision on whether or not to eat a proverbial dick for fear of possibly harming someone else.
That's an easy decision for me. I know I would rather live with a little regret than fucking die. If you aren't willing to make that same choice, you should probably just acknowledge that you only consider your firearms as toys.
And, besides, any bullet really worth shooting someone with will "over-penetrate."
A single lung shot with no other trauma, ie heart or spine, is going to take several minutes to incapacitate the threat.
A lung hit will still be quicker than a stomach shot, unless you are counting pain induced incapacitation. Allegedly being gut shot is incredibly painful.
There are several other targets which are more effective at incapicitation than the lungs, such as the brain, heart, spine, liver, several arteries, and the pelvis. Conveniently, several of these targets are colocated with the lungs so you usually get a couple of major systems hit per shot, assuming you place them in the upper thoracic cavity.
If I'm shooting a target who is wearing body armor, I will at least consider a pelvic shot.
The brain is legendarily hard to hit. Only consider that a legitimate target after considerable practice, at short range, and only if absolutely necessary.
I don't know what to tell you. If you refuse to defend yourself when lethal force is appropriate, you're an idiot.
And your hypothetical is still as fucking stupid as you. Not only do you need to be perfectly in line with your attacker and autistic child, but you also need to be at the correct, improbable height to shoot through the center mass of your assailant and your retarded incest kid.
>Ciara Meyer stood directly behind her father as he raised a .223-caliber rifle and pointed it at the chest of a constable who'd come to serve an eviction notice at their apartment.
The constable responded with a single shot.
That bullet went through the arm of 57-year-old Donald Meyer and into his 12-year-old daughter, Ciara, killing her.
And that was just a .40
Can someone more knowledgeable than I educate me on .357 sig? I've always understood this to be Sigs answer to .40 when the FBI wanted something other than 10mm and that it penetrates very well when using the right loads. Federal Air Marshals apparently use .357 sig which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because I thought penetration was a issue in aircraft.
Tons of penetration, but otherwise it's just a pistol with a small bullet.
The Russians invented it so they could reuse tooling that was designed to make .311 pistol barrels, not because it was deadlier than 9 mm.
Being better at defeating WWII era helmets is literally a side effect of cost cutting.
I can tell you about the ballistic performance but I know fuck all about the history or intended purpose other than what I've read on Wikipedia. Whatcha wanna know?
It's fun as shit to shoot and is wicked loud.
Most .311 diameter hollow points are built for use in .32 ACP, which is much lower velocity. What this means to you is that they will break up in the target and not penetrate far enough, making a gruesome but shallow wound. Heavier jacketed bullets meant for these velocities have the same drawbacks of other hollow points, you trade penetration for a slightly better chance at hitting something important. Thankfully you've got a lot of penetration to trade.
Tl;dr, make sure you buy good ones.
The reason why this ammo is a 150 grain is that they thinned the jacket and used a softer lead alloy in the body of the bullet, so it will expand more reliably at lower velocities.
Not really the frame and slide must be quality made (high quality forging and heat treatment) then barrel must be rated for the pressure wuther having proof pressure higher than 45 super or actual 45 super barrel.
The brass has to be 45 super or it will fail.
How is the recoil impulse when shooting? I assume it has more "snap" to it, which I actually sorta enjoy. Do you carry a .357 Sig?
That makes sense. I just figured that they would want to mitigate over penetration as much as possible, but I suppose the potential collaborate damage is of less concern than stopping the assailant as quickly as possible
Stopping power in handguns is a myth. Autists on this board probably think their .45 is going to be like a 12 ga slug to the chest. Its not. Shot placement is key. Get what you are most comfortable shooting. I daily carry a 9mm because of ammo cap, price, and thats what im best with.
what if the person is wearing body armor? Would any rounds fired out of a G17 (for example) be able to penetrate?
fair enough, but are any 9mm round capable of penetration? Perhaps FMJ?
I carry a large part because I want to stop a mass shooting. If the person was well prepared they would have body armor.
(this is stuff I actually think about)
That reminds me another pros for whwwlgun i can handload a sabot'd rifle bullet lets say blacktip or ss109 for ap performance and not having my reliability affected.
no, a normal 115gr fmj will not defeat soft armor, let alone a plate. it's mostly all about velocity when it comes to defeating armor, soft or hard, something normal handgun rounds do not do. there are some special rounds that are designed to defeat soft armor, but they are scarce and expensive.
.45 nets you a significant increase in fully expanded JHP diameter, and superior bone breaking capabilities
Is it worth the reduced capacity? Debatable.
I carry .45 because I am better with my .45 than I am with my 9, but I don't buy a 9 in the same platform as my .45 because I don't think one more shot is worth trading down.
I've shot deer with .45 and with 9mm (thank you any centerfire bigger than .220 law), the performance difference is noticeable if you hit a rib.
A +p+ fmj should penetrate level 2 body armor but will most likely be stopped by level 3a and higher. Mass shooters have a mixed record of wearing body armor, however. If they aren't, then you will need high quality hollow points. I wouldn't carry any fmj at all.
You should carry a hollow point because you are much more likely to have to use your firearm against treyvon than against achmed or some spoiled attention whore, and if you do use it against a mass shooter, he is as likely as not to be unarmored.
Also, shooting at the pelvic girdle to stop a threat in body armor is a thing.
A strike to the major load bearing structures of the body is no laughing matter. Also, there are major arteries and pain centers In the pelvis, legs, and groin, which will make stopping your target much easier. This makes carrying fmj for the unlikely event that you will ever be unlucky enough to engage an armored shooter, (while also being lucky enough that he is only wearing level 2,) seem pretty stupid. The pelvic shot really should be taught more.
I have an old star PD in .45. I have a Sig mk25 in 9mm. I am far more accurate with the .45 than the 9mm and it cost way under half the price. Plus with hand loads the .45 with xtp bullets is amazing and smaller. It holds 6+1 where as my mk25 holds 15+1. I would rather use my Star PD any day against an assailant.
I'd like to know more about different 7.62x25 HP as well. Privi and Wolf are all I've seen, though I usually just shoot pic related, since it's cheap as hell ($12 for 70).
Let me put it this way:
My CX4 will not defeat any sort of common soft armor with FMJ, and it has considerably greater velocity than a handgun.
There are a few snowflake rounds that will od the job, but they're rere as shit.
If i'm shooting someone and they're wearing armor, i'm firing at the face and legs.
S&W 500 isn't that under powered.
I am pretty sure a center mass hit from one shot will drop most people
.357 sig is another gimmick round seemingly designed solely for people who want to shoot people on the other side of things, ie windshields, doors, seats, other people. i dont get that round.
>comparing magnum rounds to standard handgun loads
I've seen what both do to the ribs of a live deer. A 230 grain +P HST will shatter the 4th rib of a 200 lb live weight doe, transit both lungs and the aortic arch, coming to rest against the far side of the rib cage, cracking that rib and causing a bleed that kills the deer in about 30 steps. A 124 grain +P HST will break the 5th rib of a 180 lb live weight doe cleanly, transit the left lung, and come to rest having nicked the aortic arch and not having touched the right lung, causing a bleed that takes about 20 minutes to kill the deer. If it had been a mm lower on the deer, the deer would have lived for hours, and I probably would never have found it.
Both shots under 30 yards, both shots out of 5 inch barrel handguns. The fourth rib is thicker than the 5th rib.
I don't hunt with the 9 anymore.
The greater momentum of the .45 lends it better ability to break bone.
The first time I broke the scope on my slug gun mid season and wouldn't have been able to re sight in the fun without cutting into my hunting time.
Then I tried 9mm the next year in the name of science.
I've also killed deer with my 5.56 AR, mostly for science, but both the AR and the .45 worked well enough that I made my AR my main rifle zone woods gun (I've got a Swede Mauser for hunting in open fields), and I carry the .45 when I'm pushing thickets, leaving my long gun in my stand.
I work at a manufacturer of PCCs, and two rounds that seem most intimidating in my daily test firing are 10mm and 7.62x25. Wouldn't want to get shot with anything, but especially not those rounds. They fuck every target up royally in comparison to others
>different sectional densities,
Yes, that is one of the chief advantages the .45 has in this scenario.
What's your point? This is like complaining that the faster car has better tires. Yes, that is one of the ways that it is better.
> sample size of 1
I've killed 3 deer with my .45, and while I know that 9mm would still kill the deer, and even do it quickly if I didn't hit a rib, the fact is that I can count on .45 to take the deer humanely from a wide variety of broadside angles, where with the 9mm, because of substandard performance after hitting bone, honestly the only humane angle is quartering away so I can go for the liver or heart without having to go through the ribs.
None of my other .45 kills have been directly comparable to a 9mm shot like the above anecdote, so I haven't told their story.