Is there a practical reason most shotguns still use tube magazines instead of box magazines or is that just not 'shotgun-y' enough?
Inertia. All the manufacturing equipment makes tube mags and guns that feed from them.
Potentially they're trying to avoid regulations because it's a lot harder to make a tube mag bigger than it is to just buy a bigger box mag, and as such scary 'salt scattergats are harder to pitch.
Gains in capacity when switching to box mags aren't really all that impressive unless you want a huge unwieldy mag that makes the gun harder to use, because shotgun shells have much greater diameter than most rifle cartridges.
Box magazines don't work the best with rimmed cartridges, and shells of varying length. There's also the inertia of people just making and using tube magazines for 100+ years.
Shotguns are also mostly used by fuddy types, who don't really care about large capacity or quick opr8r reload speed. For military use one of the big advantages of pump action shotguns is that they make a big boom, and are extremely reliable. A lot of mag fed shotguns have reliability issues.
You're average Saiga is nowhere near as reliable as a pump action scattergat.
>Shotguns are also mostly used by fuddy types
Any idea why?
>Because they make things dead real good without needing much skill.
That sounds like the exact opposite of what I expect from old fuddy-duddies. My experience of old people that love doing things "the old-fashioned way" usually means doing something a way that requires far more skill, effort, time and money than something that could be done quickly, cheaply and easily if they weren't so violently opposed to change, because it means they'd have to learn something new.
Is it that shotguns themselves obsolete as guns, but still popular simply because they keep appearing in games and movies, perpetuating their popularity?
How many fudds actually own one of those?
How many fudds even own Binellis?
because shotguns make executing fuddery simple and easy and shotguns have wood stocks and nice non threatening cosmetic features which appeal to fudds. basically fudds see shotguns as sporting equipment, that can be used for home defense. basically a loud baseball bat.
>kill a durr
>kill a duck
>kill a home invader
>kill your daughters boyfriend
all with out reloading
yes, in fact some people keep their home defense shotguns loaded with
>less lethal beanbag
so they can escalate with a threat (even though once you introduce a firearm you have to use it to kill someone because its deadly force)
>let's take a shotgun's reliability
>and move it somewhere else
The same reason no modern army uses shotguns as a service rifle.
You don't need a box magazine for a gun used to bust doors open.
A 12 ga cartridge is about 0.75" in diameter and is rimmed. The large diameter means that single stack box magazines become unworkably long before they reach meaningful capacity. They also vary greatly in length, something that means little in a tube.
The rim poses the risk of rim-lock, meaning magazines have a significant offset, usually forward. It also makes double stack magazines problematic, requiring something like the divider that Kel Tec uses in the PMR-30 mag. The cartridges are still fuckhuge and limit capacity.
>The large diameter means that single stack box magazines become unworkably long before they reach meaningful capacity.
But the capacity on shotguns is normally only 5 or a few more. And mags are reloaded damn fast if you actually have a spare with.
If you buy the short shells meant for tube mags and HD, then you've got a larger point.
I can safely say I can't go back again after using my vepr for skeet/trap the last few years. There's definitely some nice things about mags that would be tough to give up again.
>theres no box mag that will let you load 2 3/4,3, and 3.5 at the same time and still feed
Yeah, but almost nobody uses 3.5in shells ever. IDK if I've ever seen them in a store.
I can stagger 2 3/4 and 3in shells fine.
There is a lot more use of shotguns by police than the military.
Shotguns definitely have an advantage in terms of speed and avoid a lot of issues with over penetration, and in domestic situations the range afforded by a rifle or submachine gun is less meaningful.
My sporting gun is 13 rounds, on the left. Mag fed is awkward for formal competition with loading restrictions, such as per target.
The DP-12 on the right holds 16 rounds in two tubes.
They are usually upland bird loads, often loaded with steel or tungsten shot. They are carried here in North Dakota due to the number of goose hunters.
They are pretty terrible for self defense, with greater recoil and reduced capacity.
Neat. And yeah, 13-16rds would be an awkwardly long mag.
>Mag fed is awkward for formal competition with loading restrictions, such as per target.
That's why I have my pouch handy at my waist, each of 4 mags loaded up to whatever capacity I want it at and they're easy to load up sitting right in there. I reload them between stations as I walk or whenever I have time.
If you didn't have a setup figured out, it would be extremely awkward though.
In my state it's illegal to have more than 3 shells in the weapon when hunting waterfowl. Since that's the major use I'd imagine this is part of the reason. It's also cheaper to manufacture. Also shot shells are shorter and fatter, which makes a tube more advantageous versus a magazine which is better for narrow and long rifle cartridges.
>That flinch in the beginning
I only use the 930 for recreation. The tube is about 32 inches, which is pretty normal for overall length for trap guns. Skeet, which I don't shoot often, is sort of weird with it.
The pouch idea is interesting, though I would have to add a hold open for where I shoot.
>though I would have to add a hold open for where I shoot.
That's standard with the vepr.
And the pouch holds everything from up to 50 shells(I don't want extra shell weight in there if I don't have to though), to all my chokes.
I suggest you add a vepr to your shotgun collection at some point. It really is a nice piece of hardware just for just playing with if nothing else.
Doesn't the bolt close when the mag is removed? The only AK shotgun I have shot is the Catamount, though I plan to get one at some point after I get a few other things.
I nearly got disqualified when I shot a 105CTi II because no one could tell if the bolt was open. I shoot with a few fun sponges.
>Doesn't the bolt close when the mag is removed?
Nope, it opens when you run out of boolets or activate it manually. And it closes when you push the release, like the catamount, but actually positioned in a convenient place by the trigger since the trigger area isn't in the "sporter" location like a saiga. It'll also release if you rack the slide without a mag in, or with a loaded mag in.
Webm related quickly shows how easy it is to grab the mag out and that the bolt isn't closing. I basically just can't help but squeeze the mag release when I grab the mag.
I've held a catamount a few times, everything is just SO MUCH more conveniently and comfortably placed on the vepr IMO.
That could work. I have been told that the Vepr is much better made than the Catamount and would probably spring for the better gun. When I get closer to buying something, I plan to look into it more. I have a CZ 75B and a something in 308Win to buy first.
The Catamount I shot was fine, but had issues with lighter loads. It jammed before I finished the mag, but that was probably more the Estate shells I shot than anything else, considering that they don't cycle well in my Sportsman or 930. I traded off with a guy who wanted to shoot my DP-12, but we didn't trade shells.
So far I haven't found a factory load it won't eat.
I have very limited experience with walmart winchester though, only a box or two, been told not it's not good for semi autos in general.