Red dot guy here
I'm bored again so I'm going to spend various parts of the night talking about micro red dots.
Unlike standard T-1 sized red dots where every company at every price range had something to offer you, Micro Red Dots seem to have a lot of quirks
So I'm going to cover all the similar brands as last time, plus a few more that make dots in this category that don't have a T-1 sized red dot.
One thing to keep in mind is to ensure 100% compatibility with your mounts. On the whole, there is roughly two different mounting styles: Doctor Style, and Trijicon RMR Style. Sometimes bases don't mesh with some dots, but this isn't exactly common. Always confirm a mount is 100% kosher to go with your optic
Pic semi unrelated
Unlike in the standard T-1 category where I could have a lot to say about the Bushnell TRS-25, with it's nice dot, rugged history, cheap pricepoint and just half decent sex appeal, the Bushnell Trophy First Strike comes out as a disappointment.
If for no other reason than the mount for the Bushnell is proprietary. It's only for the Bushnell. Which means you are limited to what you get - a little weaver/1913 base that has a fairly decent height when mounted.
Given the primary benefit of these dots is to have them mounted on rifles, scopes or handguns and have the smallest footprint possible - having this comparatively large, non-QD mount is really a major setback.
Since you can't reasonably mount this to a pistol without having brain damage, it gets beaten by it's bigger brother. The Bushnell TRS-25 has a nicer dot, a more rugged housing, a simillar-ish size, and a mounting system that can be upgrade to QD
And most importantly the Bushnell TRS-25 is cheaper than the First Strike. There is really no reason to look at the First Strike.
Uhhhh its Bushnell
Can be had for under 100 dollars
The Bushnell TRS-25 literally does everything it does, but better, for less money
The dot also regulates its own brightness, so if for some reason you want it a tad brighter, you are fucked
/k/'s favorite meme brand when it comes to normal red dots. Unfortunately it doesn't really hold up here. While the Primary Arms dot actually does have a compatible red dot base that will fit Doctor style mounts, Primary Arm's themselves advises against mounting this on a pistol slide or a shotgun. Which, uhh, doesn't leave much else.
It also has automatic brightness adjustment and a 5 MOA dot just like the Bushnell offering. But it's also cheaper than the Bushnell by about 10 dollars.
So if you are looking for a dot for your .22 that's less than 100 bucks, this is probably it.
>forgot the picture
A little bit too much to drink for me tonight
>Burris FastFire 3
See, NOW we're cooking. Welcome to the realm of amazing fucking red dots.
The Burris Fastfire 3 has to be, by far, one of my most favorite dots I own. It's super light weight, built by a great company with a great reputation, has remarkably clear glass compared to some of the other dots in it's category. You can get it with a 3.5 MOA dot, or an 8 MOA dot.
Brightness is controlled by a push button on the left side of the optic. First push puts the thing into automatic brightness mode where a sensor cranks or reduces the brightness depending on ambient light. You can keep pushing it to cycle through 3 manual levels of brightness.
The battery, unlike some micro dots (Including the Bushnell and the Primary Arms) where they are changed by removing the base from it's mounting platform to reveal a battery underneath the optic - the battery is changed on top.
Compared to some of the higher end dots which I'll go over later, this is my personal favorite. It's got a sweet dot, has a great warranty, mounts on fucking everything and doctor style mounts, Burris also makes great mounts for it like a shield mount to protect it from bumps. It's everything you could ever want in a dot
Well, everything *I* could personally want in a dot.
-Clear glass, crisp dot, manual brightness
-Burris even throws in a protective hood, so you can make it an enclosed dot
-Top changing battery
-Will actually survive the firearms you want to mount it on
Not as cheap as it could be, a sub 200 dot would have been nice
3.5 MOA and 8 MOA are great options, but a 5 MOA dot might have been a better option than 8
Included thumb screw mount is kinda poop, requires an upgrade to something better
I just bought a FF3 a couple weeks ago, worked for a couple days, turned it off, put it in my safe and took it out the next day and it wouldn't turn back on. Tired 3 different batteries and still wont work just shit out. Its now day 4 waiting on Burris CS to respond to my email I sent asking to return...
I really liked it when it worked
So there are two dots offered by Vortex. The economically priced Vortex Venom, and the more expensive Vortex Razor
First and foremost, if you are even considering the Razor, just be advised the best place for it is in the trash. It's a proprietary mount and the thing is like 400-500 bucks. No reason for this. Period.
Now the Venom? The Venom clocks in actually a bit cheaper than the Burris FastFire in sub250 range. The Venom features a doctor compatible mounting platform, and a wide field of view glass, which would make finding the hot on a horizontal axis just a tad easier.
The glass is also crystal clear. The winner here would be the Vortex optic is covered under Vortex's no questions asked warranty. If you fucked it up, even on purpose, Vortex has your back.
I haven't spent as much time with it, but it could be even better than the Fastfire.
-10 levels of brightness!!! that can be adjusted up or down on the fly up / down instead of cycling - has auto brightness but fuck that
-top mounted battery, doctor base, all the good stuff
-Wide FOV glass for better dot acquisition
-14 hour automatic shutoff to prevent battery rape
-Only sold in 3 MOA dot
-Mfg in China, so despite amazing Vortex warranty it's still something that could die one day
Aw dude that sucks. I have 3 myself and I have nothing but good things to say about them. I'm going to buy a Vortex Venom in the future to spend some more time with it, but I really think between the two you can't go wrong.
I mean I knew a guy whos Trijicon RMR just died one day, it can happen to any optic, but yeah still sucks man.
Hopefully the next one they send you isn't a pile of shit.
>Bushnell First Strike
Quoted 50,000 hours
Unsealed unit - battery mounted underneath
Unsealed unit - battery mounted underneath
>Burris Fastfire 3
Top loading battery
Top loading battery
Trijicon likes to feel relevant and important by making their dots the only ones that use a mounting platform. While everyone else is content with using the Doctor style mount, Trijicon demands you use an RMR only mount for their red dot.
But enter the Trijicon RMR. Which is actually a product line featuring 3 different dots - A "dual-illuminated" unit, a fixed brightness unit and an adjustable LED unit.
The "Dual Illuminated" RMR is powered by both Tritium and Fiber Optics. Meaning no batteries, ever. However the Dual Illuminated RMR suffers from some very practical issues - over time the tritium lamp for the RMR will decrease in brightness. The sight has a practical gap in usability at times where it is too dark to give a dot with the fiber optics, but not dark enough to see the tritium. Over time that gap will only widen. To accomodate the illumination method for this sight, the glass is much more heavily tinted than any other dot with a deep blue hue. This unit has dots (and triangles!) ranging from 7 MOA to 13 MOA in Amber and Green
That said, the dual illuminated version is the cheapest of the 3, and if you can find one at a good price it would make a really great range toy that would never require batteries.
With the two LED based versions, you receive two different units with two different purposes.
Trijicon makes an LED unit that is always on. All the time. Forever. It's brightness automatically adjusts to the ambient light level and it stays on forever. When you pull up your dot, it's on and ready to go. Always.
The Adjustable LED unit is the same, but has power buttons that can cycle and adjust the brightness to the users preference. It is the best out of the 3, but the most expensive. The dot sizes range in the 3 and 6 MOA territory, but the adjustable LED has a fucking 1 MOA dot (!!!!!!!!!!), so that's cool considering not even Aimpoint can get down below a 2 MOA.
-Super rugged, top tier dots
-Multiple options for power, brightness or tritium for what you want
-Good selection of dot choices
-Adjustable LED unit has 1, 3.25 and 6.5 MOA dots
-Good glass on LED based units
-Battery life on Tritium is 70~% illumination @ 6 years, 50% at 12, and 25% at 24.
-Battery life on other units quoted at "2 years" "4 years" and "5 years" depending on use and brightness settings, so assume roughly a 30,000+ hour battery life
-Tritium / fiber powered unit has practical issues regarding intermiddent light levels
-the dual illuminated unit has heavy tinted glass and large, large dots
-Price is like $600 dollars for them
-Use special snowflake Trijicon RMR only mounting solutions so they can milk you for $$$
-It's really, really expensive for what it is
Yeah but you could do that with a more rugged optic that's also not 100 dollars of hot garbage
Even the cheaper, less rugged Primary Arms dot's they sell that are T1 mount compatible would work with pic related. You'd have a better, more durable dot that wouldn't blow up on you. And it's sealed to the elements in a better capacity. And they are the same price as their reflex, have a better dot and manual adjustment of brightness.
It really sucks because I'd love to have a nice micro red dot / reflex sight in the 100 dollar range, but it seems entry level into these sort of optics is the Burris / Vortex line at $250~
Ya forget to mention how burris have same warranty as vortex.
Burris also have no question asked lifetime transferable warranty.
I could literally take off my burris scope and use it to drive in nails until it break then send it in and see new or it repaired when it get back.
Dat trip confirmed burris as good shit!
Oh although its far from micro size.
I have utg reddot that i brought last year for $35 as short term optic until i decide which optic i want on my L1A1.
It was burris ff II. However before i got burris the utg survived about 500rounds on L1A1 and still worked flawlessly when replaced for real scope.
It moved to my psa build and for about 600rounds it held up perfectly until i found old pa md-09 and replaced utg with pa.
I sweared to perform abusive torture test on utg and i did it was driving in nail to repair my wobbly backyard shooting bench with utg mounted on gooseneck mount for carryhandle on ar. After i was done to my surprise the dot is still on and after remounting zero seem to be intact and i try the function of both zero adjusting turrent and they worked flawlessly.
Im goddamn impressed very good for 35 goddamn buck
I have the primary arms one that is pretty much a rip off of the bushnell I got on clearance. It's a little lighter than the trs25 that was on my buckmark before, but the lack of adjustment and fuckhuge dot size bums me out. Also the glass is pretty small and the rear blocks your view through quite a bit... Would not buy again...
And today OP proved he was a not only a fag, but a poorfag too. The only pics you provided were of the PA optic, and used stock photos for the rest proving you dont own them. Also you ignored Doctor Optik even though you bring up their mounting pattern repeatedly. Thank you OP for being entirely useless and making a thread just so you could brag about your poorfag optic.
>-Price is like $600 dollars for them
no, pic related
And if anyone is wondering about Doctors, I have one on my FNP45T. I like it for what it is and that it came with a cover. My handgun fell off my bed, and of course there had to be a wrench on the floor, and optic landed on it, taking a small chunk out the rear. Stills works fine, its be replaced by a RMR just because I want the adjustable LED functionality.
Also OP was a fag for ignoring the Leupold Deltapoints.
This thread really reads like the OP doesn't own any of these, or maybe the absolute cheapest of them.
I have various handguns with RMRs, Deltapoints, and Fastfire 2s and 3s. I like all of them. They all are handy. You pay more for ruggedness and piece of mind. I do stuff with the RMRs that would and does cause zero to shift on the burrises in short order. It's not a big deal or anything, though, because I just know not to do those things with the burris optics- like clearly jams by ramming my RMR into a bench to clear the gun.
They're all good and handy and I feel they do increase accuracy at extended ranges, but inside of 25 yards I generally have faster splits with good quality open sights than with the RMR... especially the first shot.
And in case anyone is wondering what the tint difference is between a RMR and a Docter, pic related. The Doctor's lens is dirty from shooting 225 rounds, but isnt as dark as the RMR. Strangely the RMR when looking at it straight on doesnt give the appearance of a tint in the center of the lens, but has a strong tint along the edges.
>but inside of 25 yards I generally have faster splits with good quality open sights
For someone who says OP doesn't own what he's talking about, you dropped some pretty big bullshit right here
Pic related, not mine though.
I have a Doctor Sight II on my M305. It works flawlessly and has really made it a lot more fun to shoot. People either think its really cool or super fudds think its stupid as shit, can't win.
>Thank you OP for being entirely useless and making a thread just so you could brag about your poorfag optic.
You are a fucking idiot because if you even read anything I dismiss the Bushnell and the PA
I fell asleep at the computer last night, which is why I never got around to: The Doctor and the MRDS, & the Deltapoint / DP Pro
I realize now that micro red dots are a little less interesting to compare because there are really broken down into unbuyable shit, good cheap stuff, amazing expensive stuff. They all pretty much do the same crap. It's all fucking dots.
It's sort of like if you were to compare short dots - there really isn't much difference between a 100 dollar Bushnell and a Trijicon Accupoint other than the basic key points - which focal plane, reticle illumination, what reticle, which has better glass, and is it a pile of fucking shit that will break or not? Aside from that, you don't need a multi-paragraph post about this garbage
I think I'm going to work on some basic infographics that will just breakdown the points, slots things into categories, and provide referential information. That way they are easier to share in the future.
>I fell asleep at the computer last night, which is why I never got around to: The Doctor and the MRDS, & the Deltapoint / DP Pro
And still havent more than 24 hours later...
>It's sort of like if you were to compare short dots - there really isn't much difference between a 100 dollar Bushnell and a Trijicon Accupoint other than the basic key points - which focal plane, reticle illumination, what reticle, which has better glass, and is it a pile of fucking shit that will break or not? Aside from that, you don't need a multi-paragraph post about this garbage
That is a lot of difference, if it wasnt there wouldnt be a huge price disparity between them.
>I think I'm going to work on some basic infographics that will just breakdown the points, slots things into categories, and provide referential information. That way they are easier to share in the future.
Oh great, sharing information on optics you dont have first hand experience with. What an epic contribution.
At least I was able to post side by side pics of optics worth getting. And describe the differences in tint. How about you try doing that.
How well does that work with the front sight in the way? It doesnt look like they're on the same level, and that the hood would get in the way. Albiet a bit hard to see for sure from that angle. Pissing off fudds is always a good thing.
>Oh great, sharing information on optics you dont have first hand experience with
Yeah I don't own every optic I talk about and I admitted it last thread. But I have first hand experience with all of them and used them plenty. It's literally part of job. Next time I'll take photos just for you since you are the only one who gives a fuck.
But given the fact you are defending the Trijicon RMR Dual-Illuminated as having like, no noticable tint, and using your Adjustable LED unit to justify your point - really says how much YOU actually know about anything.
Get the fuck out
And since you want my opinion
>L3 Insight MRDS
My favorite dot, rugged, super clear, easy controls - it's just retarded on a pistol because of power button placement if you still want a read sight behind it.
Was GOAT until they discontinued it, and started selling the Deltapoint PRO for 200 dollars more. There are better options than the Deltapoint, and since it's mounts on an RMR base you might as well just get an RMR
The original which has been surpassed by it's descendants. Only bought by scrubs who want to have the memename despite the Burris and Vortex options being better in almost every way
My favorite goes to the RMR Adjustable LED since it's really the only one thats NV compatible and it makes night pistol shooting fun. I really do like the Venom though.
For anyone looking to use an open topped sight on a rifle, I advise looking into a closed design given it is better against dirt / debris and all the TRS/PA MDS/Vortex Sparc/T1 Micro are all in the same price range as these dots ,more durable and in the end a lot more options on mounting and placement
There, now you have my thoughts. Get the fuck out of the thread.
>Yeah I don't own every optic I talk about and I admitted it last thread.
No one here lives on /k/ and reads every thread. So if you're going to bring this shit up, link it in your first post. And if you dont own them then shut the fuck up. No one cares about what you think about things you dont own.
>But given the fact you are defending the Trijicon RMR Dual-Illuminated as having like, no noticable tint, and using your Adjustable LED unit to justify your point - really says how much YOU actually know about anything.
The fuck are you talking about? I never brought up the tritium RMR. And I said the tint on my RMR was strange, when looking at it straight on, as if you would when you're shooting, there is very little tint in the center, but strong tint along the edges. The tint seems to even out if you look at it 10 degrees off center.
>And since you want my opinion
No one does unless you own it, and since you dont...
>And if you dont own them then shut the fuck up. No one cares about what you think about things you dont own.
To be frank, nobody gives a fuck about what you think even if you own it. If you are not qualified to do evaluations you shouldn't even offer to share your opinion.
>literally just placed an order for a bunch of T2's to replace all the departments eoPOIshiftechs and ship em back for a refund
Feels good bruh but I mean have fun with your outdated doctor sight and single RMR
>I dont understand internal ballisitics
>I dont think other sights have POI shifts over extreme temperature ranges
>I ordered some aimpoints because i'm a clerk in a police department
>this makes me qualified to review optics
have fun thinking your a badass because you're a house cat. also the department owns them, not you, so again no one cares about things you dont own.
>>I'm still better than you
thank you for at least admitting this, or proving that you're too retarded to understand green text. either way, i win, and you're still a poor welfare queen who can't find work in the private sector.
Red dot bro, maybe you can help me. I've got a Trijicon RX30 that a fellow has offered to trade me a (former military) TA31 RCO for. He mentioned it being in good condition, but the tritium is dead. You think I can I get Trijicon to replace it for free even if it's former military property?
So you really have to ask yourself two questions:
1) What do you use your RX30 for
2) How many years on that tritium do you think you have left before it's no longer useful to you?
I put the rough calculations of how long Tritium lasts (assuming the vial doesn't get a micro crack - Tritium is a very small atom and can escape easily, which is probably how the ACOG Tritium died). If you use it for low light shooting, or variable lighting, the gap from when fiber stops working to when the tritium becomes visible only widens over time.
>"Battery life" on Tritium is 70~% illumination @ 6 years, 50% at 12, and 25% at 24.
An ACOG is still fairly useful during the day as it's own standalone scope, but I would assume that if it's former .mil property you aren't going to be able to get Trijicon to do anything for it if you ever need them to, whereas you can pay Trijicon to top up your RX30 / have them do it for free under warranty, so the worry about the Trit dying is not as big,
The question really comes down to, do you want a reflex sight, or do you want a magnified optic you can use during the day time?
There are better red dots than the RX30 nowadays and Battery life on them is measured in years, so it really comes down to what you want to use it for. But the other side of that scope is you can get really good magnified optics for casual shooting for a lot less money, that have electronic reticle illumination as well.
There is no right or wrong answer here, it all comes down to personal preference and what you want to do. If you feel like you would be better off with the TA31 and are okay with it just being a daytime optic only? Go for it.
Every red dot in existence.
The Doctor isn't as good as the RMR, MRDS, Fastfire, Venom or the Deltapoint, somewhat more fragile than the RMR/MRDS/DP
It just costs too much for what it is. If the price dropped to 250~ it would be the best dot.