>>28482851 We did it out to 650. It is probably the most accurate AK OOB, I shot sub-MOA with mine.
But I don't think the RK is all that good as a military weapon compared to other AKs or ARs. It is WAY too expensive and slow to produce.
It is one of the best AKs for range use, but I think a regular AKM would be better suited with production, compatibility and logistics. An AR would be even better, considering we are getting buddies with NATO.
>>28482895 With modern CNC machinery, they could be cranked out fast enough. The brunt of the high cost came from material development and SAKO's obsession with quality control.
If they were used like russia utilizes their AKs, a cheaper, throw-away gun would be the better choice. 10-15 years of conscript abuse, then off to the scrap heap. The -62 and the -95 on the other hand were developed to the requirement that the gun be usable for multiple decades.
I used an RK62 for a year during my conscription. Compared to my own Saiga M3, the RK was by far superior. Better accuracy, better overall feel to the weapon system. Of course the 62 had the tube stock etc whereas my Saiga has collapsible stock and soon a quadrail. But comparing the two in original condition, RK is better.
>>28482868 you still see those claims like "hurr AK's useless past 300 meters, because huge bullet drop". Like >>28482895 mentioned, with a decent optic the RKs can easily hit past 600m.
>>28482895 >An AR would be even better, considering we are getting buddies with NATO. Wouldn't touch an AR with a meter long pole. If we gotta have a NATO toy, then use the SCAR-L the FDF adapted just now for the SFs. For a typical conscript and reservists, a 5.56 AK like Galil would be the better pick; everyone already would know how to use and maintain it as well. Than new VZ rifle looked pretty boss too.
Speznaz operator in training. A-tacs and an AR. In some speznaz units they can actually influence on what their rifles are. In those units ARs seem to be the norm. In every other unit the operators are making their AKs as AR-ish as possible.
>>28482359 I have the civvie model and she's the best AK I've shot, and I've tried Russian, Bulgarian, Chinese and East German AKs. Sako just feels better, and is unparalleled in the accuracy department.
>>28483656 And after going to all that trouble to find the best rifle, they adopted some other piece of shit, forcing state troopers to jump through many unnecessary hoops to maintain and use their weapons.
>>28483869 >Lol no. Lol YES. Seriously, fuck ARs and their dozens of tiny bits and pieces. You trip over and fall on your gun, and it's pretty much broken for good.
>Both can freeze shut if you use wrong oil. The difference is, that you can fix the frozen AK/RK with a one strong stomp on the charging handle. Had to do that myself after sleeping in a tent when it was -30 celsius outside, and I left the gun lean on the tent's metallic pole through the night. I never cleaned my rifle in the woods.
>>28483869 >When will the >>ARs are unreliable and complicated >>AKs are inaccurate and simpler >meme die? Probably never, people love simplistic comparisons of dubious accuracy. >>28483357 Ive left my BCM lightweight middy out overnight when we had a nightime low of -48°c, it worked just fine at -43° when I went to shoot it.
But battery powered optics don't work at that temp, which is why I changed out my dot sight for a 1-4x scope.
>>28483889 You put a boot on the charging handle and stomp the buttstock into the ground, careful to control the muzzle so you aren't risking a Curt Cobain.
You might break the latch, but that doesn't affect the rifle's functioning. The charging handle material has yeild strength of 275 MPa, and its got a cross section approaching 40 mm2, so it should take any blow you can deliver, at least a couple times.
>>28483987 I practice 3 gun shooting (Practical), and our club only has ARs and Glawks. Got to try a chink AKM just recently for the first time, and I greatly prefer the feel and style of it. It's hard to put my finger on it, but AR15 really feels like a toy, with an audible spring going "sproing!" inside it when you fire. The only reason people (=Yanks) push AR and .223 as a standard is because they adapted it, and can't be assed to replace it with anything anymore.
>>28484079 >did you notice coming off target more with the 7.62x39 recoil compared to the .223? Not really, no. I haven't tested either gun beyond 100m though, most often we're at around 50-75m tops at the range. AK had no problems hitting those roughly A3 paper-sized targets of ours. Some people seem to also hate the AK's "open" sights, but I actually like them more than peep sights. Gives you a better view of the surroundings or something.
>>28484113 >Jesus Chrsit, the Finn love for saunas begins to make sense. Even if it was +30 outside, we'd still grave for Sauna at the end of the day. It's kind of a relaxation and cleansing thing as well, plus a form of socializing with friends.
>>28483985 Cool, now I want an AR just so I can see how satisfying it is to kick-start compared to a RK. >>28483987 Please do, although I don't think I'll be very convinced until I get one and do some first hand experimenting.
>>28484179 >now I want an AR just so I can see how satisfying it is to kick-start compared to a RK. The more proper procedure is called "mortaring", where you grab hold of the handguard and the charging handle latch, pull down on the charging handle, and smack the buttstock of the gun into the ground
>>28483987 You are free to believe what you want, dear, but that doesn't make it true. AKs simply can deal with more abuse and ARs are more finicky. Doesn't mean that AKs are overall better rifles, but they are better in some respects. The rest is opinions.
>>28484334 >So I believe that AR is a better weapon system, but I use an AK as my main reservist rifle, if that makes any sense. >Same story with my Dragunov. I think that AR10 is a better rifle, but I chose an SVD because I like it more. This is a very respectful and respectable opinion, thank you.
Now convince someone to sell RK kits to us Americans so I can build one to keep my Polish AKM kit built rifle company in a safe full of otherwise American guns (several ARs, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1898 Krag-Jorgensson, Kimber 84M, Mossberg 590). It could probably even help with the Swedish Mauser's loneliness.
>>28485233 Thanks. I saw one of these Aimpoint T1 / H1s (or their knockoffs) go for fairly cheap just now, so I might bite and make it my first red-dot. Guess I'll get a cheek-rising wrap for the rifle's butt too.
The RK62/95 are overhyped as fuck. No mass military besides Finland bought them, and Valmet stopped producing them years ago.
It had some good elements to it, but not enough to justify the costs. Anything good about it was copied by the jews into the Galil, which was a very successful rifle for both military and civilian sales around the world.
>>28483429 Why does everyone thing an AR would fair poorly in the cold? There's parts of the US that are colder than anywhere in Europe. I don't understand what exactly is going to fair badly in the cold? Proper lubrication won't freeze and an AR has tight chamber tolerances that keep things out of it.
>>28485934 It's a unit that uses ARs on the reg. Tjose pics are from a training session with another Russian agency. They were competing in an agency compeuition measuring shooting skills and soldier knowhow.
>>28484487 >>28484514 The milled receiver and the sight placement on gas block and rear of the top cover is 95% of the 'magic' what makes those rifles accurate. Don't know the specifics, but I feel that both of those two attributes are easily archivable without a specific kit from what is already on the market in the US
>>28485904 Valmets were pretty much made foremostly for the local needs (=for FDF), the company being literally the "Government's Metal" (Valtion Metalli). This was to make the Finnish armed forces more self-sufficient and also bring more work into the Finland. The export thing was a very late idea, which unfortunately wasn't given enough attention in the end either. Some theorize that the fragile "neutrality" of Finland kinda wanted Valmet as well to minimize sales to either side of the Cold War.
That being said, Valmets and Sakos are more robust than Galils, no matter that they copied the overall design.
>>28485924 You literally gotta look them up used pieces nowadays. No new RK rifles have been made since the 90s, and the ones floating around do cost a lot. You do get a total Cadillac model "AK" though.
>>28485960 >Why does everyone thing an AR would fair poorly in the cold? Because numerous tests, official military ones and civilian magazine ones like >>28483656, say just that.
>There's parts of the US that are colder than anywhere in Europe Things can get just as cold in Finland during winter as in northern Alaska.
>I don't understand what exactly is going to fair badly in the cold? Metal mechanism literally freeze shut. Tighter fit only makes things worse.
>Proper lubrication won't freeze An AK does not need lubrication. And in case of extreme cold temperatures (like -30C or less), FDF literally uses kerosine. >and an AR has tight chamber tolerances that keep things out of it. Yet if and when something DOES get into the gun, it's gonna fuck it up hard.
Like said, AKs and RKs are made to be as simple as possible to use and maintain, and that's the exact type of rifle a conscript military lurking in the woods many weeks at once needs.
>>28486322 I did look at those, and the problem isn't the mount itself- it sits pretty low on normal AKs. Problem is that the rail on Sako sits higher than on normal AKs, so even a low rail will be high on the Sako. The side rail itself is also different, requiring some machining to make it fit.
And AK handguards don't work at all, there isn't a rear sight block on Valmet/Sako pattern rifles, and the gas tube contacts directly with the dust cover.
>>28486032 >Why does everyone thing an AR would fair poorly in the cold? >Because numerous tests, official military ones and civilian magazine ones like >>28483656 #, say just that.
That test only studied one specimen per rifle. Also it is not known if the lubricants used were gun specific or not.
Canada found the Diemaco ARs just fine in cold. So does the US military in Alaska where they do cold training.
The older US military tests were skewed to make the gun look bad. I'm talking back when there was still a lot of support fir the M14.
>There's parts of the US that are colder than anywhere in Europe >Things can get just as cold in Finland during winter as in northern Alaska.
Yes. And ARs run just fine alongside AKs.
>I don't understand what exactly is going to fair badly in the cold? >Metal mechanism literally freeze shut. Tighter fit only makes things worse.
Not exactly. It't not really the tolerances that are the problem, it's got more to do with form of the carrier and the bolt. RKs have rather tight tolerances (at least they used to have when they were new) and they run fine. Both AKs and ARs do good as long as you don't put fucking motor in there in the cold.
"Muh reliability" is not an excuse to have a loose gun. Look at Suomi KP/31. Tightest open bolt SMG ever created but also reliable.
Getting your rifle frozen shut is as likely with both. All you need is to be a retard and bring it into a warm tent with you. Both can be fixed easily: mortar clearing or stomping.
>>28486032 >Proper lubrication won't freeze >An AK does not need lubrication. And in case of extreme cold temperatures (like -30C or less), FDF literally uses kerosine.
Any usable cold-temp lube is good for ARs, too. Not using lube at all in the cold is a mistake, but using too much isn't good either. This applies to both rifles. A really thin layer will make sure ice doesn't form too easily and if it does it'll be easy to break off.
>and an AR has tight chamber tolerances that keep things out of it. >Yet if and when something DOES get into the gun, it's gonna fuck it up hard.
If something gets inside the goddamn chamber your gun WILL malfunction no matter what. Shit in the actual action of the gun, I'm talking locking surfaces, will also cause a malfunction. Unless your gun is very, very much out of headspace. Sprinkle some sand or shit on the actual locking surfaces and you'll see.
>Like said, AKs and RKs are made to be as simple as possible to use and maintain, and that's the exact type of rifle a conscript military lurking in the woods many weeks at once needs.
I don't see how an AK is that much simpler compared to an AR. The part count on field strip isn't that much different especially with captive pins. The maintenance procedure is about the exact same already taught in the FDF.
>>28486497 >That test only studied one specimen per rifle Are you seriously trying to imply that out of the 12 rifles tested, 4 AK derivates worked 100% flawlessly and all the other eight (8) had unlucky defective models send to the test. What are the odds... >Also it is not known if the lubricants used were gun specific or not. You didn't even read the article then, did you? No lubricants were used, the whole point of the test was to asses how the rifles could stand up to the extreme cold combined with the worst case abuse that officers tend to put their raifus through
>>28486965 Hmm.. I gotta try that on my shotguns. Goddamn Auto-5 stops cycling at -20c with regular oils.
Forgot to add here >>28486932 that I am not claiming that the AR is more reliable in cold. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it's reliable enough to the point where it doesn't make a big difference. If only the performance in cold was to consider, the AK has the upper hand. Here's a quiz: why is this? :D (pro-tip, it has nothing to do with tolerances).
But in practical terms both rifles are reliable enough in cold, given that you don't freeze them up (this can ve resolved with both rifles in seconds, though).
In overall reliability AR and AK are the same. I'm talking all the mud, grit, sand, warer, cold.. Due to their characteristics both weapons have some advantages in different areas (AR fares better in mud and soggy shit, AK in sand) but both have a usable degree of reliability in all of them.
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