If human bones are harder than steel and concrete, and swords are able to cut through those, how come master swordsmen can't slice steel? Checkmate
Shit cant find the gif but there is another one where they reverse it and he cuts the katana in two with the longsword.
Germanfag here too. He made both swords. His name is Stephan Roth or so and he is in the something sword art or heritage society where they try to preserve old smithing techniques my using them. So apart from beeing new his katanas are authentic and katanas are just an overhyped compensation for decent steel.
I get that people hate katanas for whatever reason. Yeah they're probably hyped up by weebs, but they're still good swords. It's not like you'll walk off a good cut from a longsword or katana.
Should look at the circumstances of the two weapons. What types of armors did they have to defeat? What weapons were they comonly used against? How were they used in combat? How limited were resources in the region they came from? Who among their respective forces primarily used them?
>What types of armors did they have to defeat?
Both mostly cut up peasants but the japanese used plate armor too even if their armor simply cant compare.
>What weapons were they comonly used against? Both used the same weapons simply optimized for the armor they were up against.
>How were they used in combat?
Both as a backup weapon.
>How limited were resources in the region they came from?
Equal but the japanese could get their steel pure/clean enough.
>Who among their respective forces primarily used them?
Anyone who could afford one.
Nah, Katanas are objectively shit. Uchigatanas, however, are very good swords for the material that they had and especially in the time period where they were first conceived.
They compare fairly well against earlier European swords, ie when they were first conceived.
Later European swords are superior because their designs advanced while Japanese designs mostly remained stagnant.
There is but one weakness.
not just katanas, but I recall reading from somewhere that during the invasion of Korea, Japanese bladed weapons in general had problems getting through Chinese and Korean brigandine. The blast furnace steel plates were much harder than the laminar armor in Japan
No, there was another test where they used a European sword in the same test. The one held down broke and the one being swung only had a chip in it. I'd post that gif but my desktop is on the other side of the state.
So if my understandting is correct, bones developed over the years to carry weight efficiently, so they have honeycomb-like structures inside. So if you push really hard on each end of a femur, it could possibly resist more than a ductile/flexible metal which has a crystal structure that is more ordered and able to bend. Someone correct me on this please.
Wait, found it. Thought it was in a different folder.
It's definitely an argument of hard vs soft steel. Soft bends and can wig the fuck out while hard is more brittle and thus more likely to snap like that.
By chance you got one where he's got a katana strapped to the table? Want to see what happens when the extra motion is not available.
Weight, length, and blade shape.
The uchigatana has a blade shape that makes it easier to draw and is lighter than a katana, making it better as a backup or defensive weapon.
The entire idea/art of striking from the scabbard came about with the uchigatana. And the lighter weight makes it faster which is almost always good as long as the sword doesn't physically break.
So, because of how swords are realistically used, the uchigatana is much more useful.
Might as well ask here
Do any of you buy swords for display or use? I've been interested in buying a uchigatana or katana lately, and I'm not sure where the most reliable place to get one is.
Hardness and toughness are different material properties. Hardness refers to ability to scratch or hold an edge. Toughness refers to ability to absorb impact energy without breaking. Glass is hard but not tough. Soft steel is tough but not hard.
Kult of Athena is a good place to start. Besides that there would be more specific sites.
Really look at reviews and anything <$200 is super sketchy for any sword, especially for anything that traditionally has a bisteel blade. That is, if you want something that's not just a wallhanger.
Try this site http://www.ryansword.com/
I bought a katana from there are few years ago, Still just as a wall hanger, but it uses some decent steel at least so in theory it could be used
Unrelated to the thread, but what stainless alloy would you recommend for applications where thermal cycling (very hot to room temp), ablative wear resistance and regular wear resistance are important?
not sure, metallurgy wasn't my thing. composites were. i can tell you the basics of laser diodes and shit but that's because the degree is like 75% functional materials at my school.
Yes, it is retarded.
It takes all of your bones out of alignment and makes it basically impossible to actually block effectively.
Please don't comment on things you don't understand.
I seem to have caught a bout of autism and have no idea if youre trolling but I suspect you are.
I honestly couldn't explain it without a sword in my hand.
And yeah, your body just isn't set up to be strong when you're cocking your wrist and shit like that.
But even if you could block strongly with the flat, you'd still have the problem that you don't have any fucking quillons there.
I imagine that also depends on the sword in question for the crossguard issue. Beyond that the particular style you're using as well. Some are almost certainly better suited to such a thing than others.
Honestly, I would figure the goal would not be "blocking", but deflecting the blow.
>Honestly, I would figure the goal would not be "blocking", but deflecting the blow.
Eh, nah. With the kind of angles we're talking about you can't really "deflect" shots into a different direction.
Of course, if you can keep their momentum going a bit in a direction other than you then it definitely makes a riposte a bit easier.
And I really doubt that there are any swords on the planet where it's better to block with the flat, but since I only know shit about euro swords I can't say for sure.
As far as I know people tried to avoid blocking with their sword during the bronze age because their swords were far more prone to damage, perhaps there were some styles which involved blocking with the flat.
>Please don't comment on things you don't understand.
NIGGA YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BLOCK WITH THE FLAT OF THE BLADE. This not only keeps your sword from turning into a wood saw but it makes it harder for the opponent to simply angle his sword into a way that allows him to simply slide it past yours and thrust it into you. I bet you think spin attacks are effective or something retard.
Why do people collect antique guns when AR-15s with 50 magpuls and surefire taticool attachments are better? Why do people collect stamps when email or text is better? Well its because these people are obviously not going to use their $500 stamps for sending letters or their 1872 revolvers for conceal carry
>I bet you think spin attacks are effective or something retard.
No, I have several years of HEMA and SCA experience. You clearly take your opinions from faggots like John Clements and Skallagrim.
>but it makes it harder for the opponent to simply angle his sword into a way that allows him to simply slide it past yours and thrust it into you
Please elaborate on this.
Double points if you manage to use the word "quillon" in your answer.
Well if someone was doing a horizontal cut then and you HAD to block it, if you used the edge of your blade to do so then both blades would bite into each other. Not only this but it would be possible to simply use that edge as a slight pivot point for their blade, it's not much but they could use it to angle their blade into a position to thrust while pushing your blade to the other side.
It's not the biggest change but its definitely worse then moving your wrist slightly to block the incoming attack with your flat, and if the opponent doesn't have very good edge alignment then their blade might just slide down into your quillion which is a good benefit for you.
Sorry my explanation may be a bit off I am still learning english...also who is john clements?
>then both blades would bite into each other
Yes, this assists you in the bind. It's hard to realistically test it in a sportive setting, but it's been tested with real swords in controlled conditions.
>Not only this but it would be possible to simply use that edge as a slight pivot point for their blade,
>it's not much but they could use it to angle their blade into a position to thrust while pushing your blade to the other side.
Have you ever tested this? Please tell me about your testing process.
No, watching Lord Of The Rings on repeat is not "research".
John Clements is the head of ARMA (a HEMA group which is somewhat closer to a cult) and he's the sole proponent of blocking strikes with the flat of your blade.
Literally nobody else who has ever trained with a sword and is well-known in the community has ever proposed this, so my only reasonable conclusions are that you're either a student of his or you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
>It's common knowledge
Translated to "I really really think this, and I don't have a single source to back it up".
HEMA and to a lesser extent the SCA are the sole sources of European swordsmanship left on the planet.
If you aren't in one of those groups, you simply aren't qualified to comment on it.
Your LARP committee wasn't around then. It's not like swordsmanship evolved into that, it came about waaaay after the fact and is in no way an accurate portrayal of how things were actually done. European and Japanese fighting styles are also totally different.
Deflecting with the cutting edge is a modern concept and a cinematic one at that.
Not him/them but I think the issue is you may be under the mistaken belief that it's all like european swordsmanship everywhere.
What you're saying is that it doesn't happen in european swordsmanship which you have experience with, but it may be different in swordsmanship from other cultures you are not experienced with.
I already agreed to this point.
Right. So apart from our ability to block with the edge (as is shown in every single treatise ever written, with a couple of very specific and situational exceptions)...
What other problems do you have with HEMA?
And from where do you draw your expertise?
HEMA isn't a reliable source of information for how things were. The records that we do have are at best incomplete and often misleading.
Swords were pretty universally the equivalent of a modern day sidearm. Even at their peak, even made from modern materials and techniques, they're not durable enough to to clank together with the force of a killing blow and keep going like nothing happened. Parries were the result of an "oh shit" scenario.
1) Happened rarely and
2) Was avoided on account it could easily leave someone unarmed
The reason the records just really aren't there is two people going at it with swords was pretty fucking rare, especially in Europe.
I got no problem with you enjoying what you do and taking part in it, but don't try to pass that shit off as historically accurate, because it isn't.
Sure, but I'm betting they're assuming you're still talking about all, not just euro.
Personally I can understand the possibility of flat blocking with favor towards deflection with a katana. The tsuba is basically a small 360 degree crossguard instead of a longer one favoring the edges. The sword itself is flexible and should be just fine taking that hit on it's broad side provided the wielder isn't a table and actually knows how to deal with it. I'm not really an expert by any means when it comes to japanese swordsmanship, but what I've seen usually has more of a flow to it lending to the possibility of deflections rather than outright blocks. Considering the katana was also apparently quite highly valued last thing you want to do is damage that edge if you can avoid it.
It makes perfect sense that a european sword with a crossguard aligned with the blade would block with the blade. The crossguard is blatantly built for it. I'd imagine sword and board would also be a fair bit more common than just sword on sword.
My only "experience" was Belegarth for around a year, and I mostly did spear so yeah, not an expert.
So do you think that we're misinterpreting the treatises, or that they were just wrong to begin with?
>Swords were pretty universally the equivalent of a modern day sidearm
Yup, meaning they were often used without armour or other accompanying weapons.
>Parries were the result of an "oh shit" scenario
Yeah, a good example of an "oh shit" scenario is someone swinging a sword at you.
And remember, no part of the sword was created by accident. Quillons are there for a reason.
I don't know much about Japanese swordsmanship or culture, but from what I've read it seems that they had a weird aversion to blocking in general. Their style seems to revolve around going for big, one-hit-kill strikes and not really giving a shit if you die.
Some honorabru shit, I don't know - it's just speculation on my part.
>I'd imagine sword and board would also be a fair bit more common than just sword on sword
Eh, it depends on the period. SCA is earlier period stuff when swords were a more common battlefield weapon, and when you have shields you'll also have armour. Sword+shield in mail is really different to a single sword without armour.
HEMA's later period stuff when swords were carried by civilians, so it's mostly unarmoured stuff without shields.
Figure that'd be more duel related.
If you die in the field you are not serving your daimyo anymore because you are dead, and if you went like a bitch (without putting up a good fight) your family might have issues for it depending on your position.
Setting up for that strike that ends the fight requires you live long enough for that opening. If you don't block or deflect the other guy's strikes while making your own you die instead of him.
Dying poorly is worse than dying.
I have that .gif in my >mfw I have no face reaction folder. Here's another! :3
The whole thing (German, but you can activate English subtitles)
and his website:
..the video mainly shows the traditional Japanese forging process, very little scientific data...
I read in some of the youtube comments with different sources that he used phosphorous steel, like you'd get from bog iron ore using a late medieval refining process.
Hardness is not the same as strength. Compared to many steels bones may be as hard if not harder but they are also far more brittle than steel.
Ceramics are far harder than steel but they are not nearly as strong
To be fair of course the krauts will favor the kraut weapon.
>constantly trumping up very specifically the "german longsword"
>treating kill bill as claims that all katanas can do what the main character's supposedly super special one can
>calling it a legend instead of the hollywood dumbfuckery that it is
This is basically dick waving man...
Honestly, I like the mythbusters video best. Blades are free to react to the impacts and the machine takes the possibility of intentionally cheating with a lighter or harder strike out of it.
Actually cuts the rapier, which to be fair is a small thin blade. Nothing else gets that treatment though.
To clarify, it's not the best test of course since they're not exactly sword experts and some of these could be total wallhangers, but the setup is perfect.
Get a consistent machine like that, lock the swords like they did with the blades free to react properly to the impacts then, finally, use some quality swords from for sure good sources with neutral experts to grade them and how they perform.
>Katana hits longsword so hard it turns into a claymore
According to who you faggot? Because according to the leading experts in the world in studying and recreating medieval Martial arts, blocking with the edge happened.
Katana were mostly used to fight unarmored opponents. When facing armored fighters, which implies war, samurai would primarily use pole weapons (yari, naginata, etc.) and bows (or muskets for commoners). The real secondary weapon would be either the wakizashi or the tanto. This is because samurai would try to close the distance, grab/throw their opponent and stab him with a short and maniable weapon through gaps in the armor. The katana is too unwieldy for that purpose.
Eskrima blocks with the cutting edge. It is the strongest block.
"Gloss: Mark, the Wrath-hew breaks all Over-hews with the point, and is yet nothing other than a simple peasant strike, and that drive thus: When you come to him with the pre-fencing, if he then hews at your head from above on his right side, then hew also from your right side from above, without any parrying, with him wrathfully on his sword. If he is then Soft on the sword, then shoot in the long point straight before you and stab him to the face or the breast. So Set-on him."
One of the most common and clear cases of using a cut of your own to strike into the opponent's cut. This happens edge-to-edge. You'd know this if you actually studied historical swordsmanship.
"Mark, when you stand against him in the guard From the Day, then hew him boldly above to the head. If he then springs from the hew and he means to come Before with the Thwart Hew and strike you therewith to your left side to the head, then fall in with the long edge on his sword. If he then strikes with the Thwart around to your other side, then come Meanwhile before, also with the Thwart, in front under his sword on his neck. So he strikes himself with your sword."
Again, he is doing a cut, and you "fall on it with the long edge [the 'front' edge of the sword in line with your knuckles]". Edge-to-edge contact.
Really, it's as simple as looking at sword design. Crossguards are aligned with the edges. Crossguards are designed to protect the hands. If binds occurred on the flats of the sword, the crossguards would be shitty at protecting the hands.
re: the katana - it's a japanese sabre. Single-edged, hand-and-a-half design, no complex hilt, slightly curved (usually), and primarily used by horse-mounted soldiers, although also became a common sidearm in general.
It's a fucking sabre. It doesn't deserve any more worship or scorn than any other single-handed single-edged sword.
But cleavage sometimes causes hardness, amirite?
wrong thats /tv/ bullshit simply by the fact that he strikes the long sword with a more heavy sword god damn just look at the fuller,if they didnt fuckig test tho same swords this is rigged, you can do what ever bullshit and present it as fact, bad tempering, bullshit tests and soo on