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If cops already have a bullet & bullet...
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons

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If cops already have a bullet & bullet casing from your gun that they can track.

How would you go about changing your gun so it can no longer be tracked?

Does shooting a bunch of rounds change the barrel enough to not be traced?
or
Would you purchase an entire new barrel( and probably ejector/firing pin)together
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>>28458204
Use a shotgun
>>
use file on rifling and on pin
buy new barrel
buy new pin
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>>28458204

the entirety of matching a bullet to a barrel/gun is complete horseshit and only retards believe that its traceable to a gun. My father was a Fed, and all his friends were. They would constantly make fun of those TV shows when this shit happens.

The only thing remotely possible is matching calibers.
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>>28458240
but that's wrong.
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>>28458276
No, it isn't. Not him, but you can research it if you like. Ballistic fingerprinting is largely horse shit. In perfect conditions they can match a gun to a fired bullet, but there are no perfect scenarios when it comes to solving real crimes.
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>>28458276
But it's actually right. At the very least the margin of error is high enough that we shouldn't be sending people to prison based on matching a bullet to a gun.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a4548/4325797/
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>>28458312
yes, it is.
>the only thing remotely possible is matching calibers
is blatantly stupid and wrong.
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>>28458334
>we shouldn't
the real concern for someone in OP's pedicament isn't what we should be doing it's what we do.
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>>28458348
And what exactly is this picture supposed to show?
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>>28458442
you're not actually this stupid, right?
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It's a reasonable question if you came across a firearm with a dubious history...
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>>28458459
I have no idea what this is showing besides rifling marks.
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>>28458204
nice bait
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>>28458204
They're more likely to pull your fingerprints off the casing than ballistic fingerprinting. That shit would barely hold up in Court
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>>28458636
notice how the right and left look very similar?
that's two bullets fired from the same gun. Rifling isn't perfectly identical in any two guns, so when a bullet is fired, the unique pattern is engraved onto the bullet. Obviously it's not 100%, and it definitely shouldn't be used as the only basis for incarcerating someone, but it's not impossible to link two bullets to the same gun with some degree of accuracy. If the grooves left over on two bullets is basically a perfect match, there's a pretty good chance they were from the same gun.
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>>28458734

What about shell matching?
How accurate and how often is that used compared to bullet matching?
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>>28458668
people have been convicted on less

as far as OPs question, tracking is only getting more and more difficult with 3D printing. but a lot more can be done with basic machining knowledge and welding.
>>
Shooting enough will change the signature of the barrel. Or buying a new barrel since they're easy to change on many guns.

Replacing the extractor and firing pin will change those too. Maybe taking a file to them would change it but then you have file marks and questionable reliability.
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>>28458734
Which works if your bullets are captured nice and whole in ballistic gel, not when they're broken up into tiny bits and scattered in multiple directions because they bounced off a guy's collar bone.
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>>28458204
Hi Mr. ATF man!

This is why you use revolvers for work that you don't want traced back to you! The casings don't go flying willy nilly!
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>>28458741
New York spent something like 3m trying to match casings to guns to solve a crime and they didn't solve jack shit.

Beyond matching calibers, ballistic fingerprinting has never aided in solving any crime ever committed.
>>
Side note: How do you know if your gun microstamps its casings : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microstamping
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>>28458801
no shit. I never said they could do it all the time and it worked flawlessly like they pretend it does on like csi or whatever.
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>>28458855
If it's new and legal in the state of California.

Which means none of them do, because nobody's going to waste millions of dollars turning firing pins (which are easily replaceable) into miniature stamping punches.

Your average firing pin would go from somewhere in the $5-15 range to $75-120.
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>>28458893
>Which means none of them do, because nobody's going to waste millions of dollars turning firing pins (which are easily replaceable) into miniature stamping punches.
unless they want to sell guns in the state of california.
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Extractor/ejector marks and firing pin impression placement can be used to determine make and model of gun.
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>>28458909
We'll know when a company decides it's worth it when something new is added to the list in CA.
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>>28458950
I'm pretty sure it would have to be implemented to keep current guns on the list.
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>>28458909
Come on guys, firing pins are esoteric technology blessed by the machine spirits. Its not like any idiot with a lathe can make one, right?
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>>28458940
>>28458855
>>28458815
>>28458668


Kids, this is why revolvers make for superior murder weapons
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>>28459018
or just buy one for 20 bucks.
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>>28458801
I imagine using something like a glaser safety slug would completely fuck up any usable marks on the bullet
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>>28458855
You can see the stamping on the primer after you fire a round. It isn't that "micro"
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>>28459058
or just using a shotgun.
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>>28458240
Yet this is constantly used in courts as evidence. So it requires a that your defense councilor is aware that it's bullshit and can get the jury to acknowledge that. Jury by peers seems like a good idea for many reasons but in these modern times it starts to be more of a liability since your "peers" are more likely than not going to be total idiots.

I've heard that some countries have dealt with this problem by making the jury a part time profession. Don't know how that's worked out but I could imagine it having some perks.
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>>28459094
You can hide a revolver behind your nutsack much more easily than you can a shotgun
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>>28459171
How the fuck is this still allowed? If its been established as bullshit, but people still believe it, why not just rule to make it not count as evidence or some shit like that
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>>28458909
Wait, so is it just gun manufacturers who have to microstamp? Did the morons in Sac-town seriously not know about after-market pins?
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>>28459428
They know. The object is harassment of people who predominantly identify as ideological enemies. Like the lead ammo hunting ban, and the drop list, and the recent ban on open carry. This is not idiots making public policy -- this is blue-state fascists waging lawfare. Get that through your fucking head
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>>28459450
>This is not idiots making public policy -- this is blue-state fascists waging lawfare.
You are giving them too much credit, they aren't doing one or the other, they are doing both.
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>>28459428
I doubt any of them even know what a firing pin is. and there's nothing california legislation can do to prevent you from ordering a firing pin from elsewhere and dropping it into your gun.
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>>28458459
I dislike people like you.
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>>28458204
>ITT: retards replying to bait and pretending to know anything about forensics
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>>28459510
people that are aware current technology exists and goes beyond
>hurr they can only match caliber and that's it
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>>28458459
>bullet comparison
top fucking kek go back to CSI

every bullet fired from a barrel with the same type of rifling utilizing the same twist rate ballistically looks exactly the goddamn same.

all "ballistic science" can prove is that a recovered bullet was fired from a gun with the same twist rate, number of rifling grooves, and rifling type.

IE arrested over the corpse of a dead fellow drug dealer with a glock 19 in your hand, the partial 9x19 bullet recovered from his gut that happens to have the same rifling twist rate of every glock 19 in existence is one peice in an overwhelming amount of evidence that you murdered him.

48 hours after a homicide it is essentially unsolvable.
ballistic fingerprinting pretty much only exists to A. stack the deck with evidence of someone's guilt since by itself it's fucking useless and B. to pay the salary of expert witnesses to get it thrown out.
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>>28458204
just get a new gun from the chinese restaurant after use.
but don't shoot the waiter
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>>28459058
except when they make you eat a truncheon a block away and your gun is found with a mag full of glaser safety slugs

or when the guy gutshot with a glaser safety slug goes "DAT DA NIGGA RIGHT THERE THAT SHOT ME!" because you shot him with a glaser safety slug

>>28458855
because in reality that shit doesn't exist and is only being used by commie states to fuck with gun companies.
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>>28459558
This is probably the most retarded post I've seen all day.

/k/ and law enforcement do not mix at all, apparently.
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>>28459558
if you just look at them side by side with your naked eye, yeah. But if you look at them under a high powered microscope, you can see incredibly fine grooves in a bullet that are unique to the gun.
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>>28459597
>this mad that you're wrong

>>28459601
>a thing that literally changes between shots
yeah, every major crime lab to use this "tech" to solve crimes solving no crimes definitely doesn't mean it's a bullshit soft science with a ridiculous rate of false or useless results.

if your court has a ballistic scientist on staff to "solve" muh firearm homicide then your county has a very well paid expert witness whose one job is to say "let me tell you why that is bullshit" in any case that manages to hit trial but is relying even partially on angels dancing on the heads of pins like the 30% match between microgrooves of two rounds fired from the same model of firearm.

"but he owns a glock 19 and the murder shot the guy with a glock 19... or glock 17... or glock 43!" is the real extent of case and recovered bullet "science" barring a hail mary like a thumbprint or DNA sample.
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>>28459536
>muh microgrooves!
>that exist even partially relevantly on FMJ bullets recovered from uniform ballistic medium

twist rate
polygonal v conventional rifling
number of rifling grooves
case markings
DNA
Finger Prints

thats it, deal with it. It's useful for finding out that the gun found in tyrones pants when he was picked up by police the same night of a shooting is one of the makes and models of pistol that could have fired the same type of bullet recovered in his guns magazine.
>>
so, does anyone on /k/ ever actually like, y'know, do research before posting about things they don't know about?
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>>28458204
Hey just dropped in to let you know that I hated that movie.

Hated it. A lot. Body horror shit. NTY.

oh, and you could probably fuck your barrel by getting it really hot and running a heavy steel brush through it on a jig saw rig. That'll add some wear quickly without burning ammo.
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>>28459953
HAHAHAHAHABABA
>>
HOW TO DEFEAT BALLISTIC FINGERPRINTING: THE POST

RIFLING
A: Fire a lot of FMJ. Very minor wear will be induced into the rifling, not enough to damage the gun in any way but enough to change the fingerprint.
B: Ask a gunsmith to re-rifle it for you with a slightly different twist rate. New rifling is quite obvious, but having it done is perfectly innocuous if you give the gunsmith a half-convincing, or even blatantly ignorant reason why you think it'll be better with a 1:9 instead of 1:10 twist.
C: Fire a few hundred tracer rounds. They will similarly foul the rifling and leave metal on the barrel that will completely change the profile.

EXTRACTOR MARKS
A: Replace the extractor. Replace it with the exact same part for that gun. Even better, buy a used gun of the same type and use that extractor. Fingerprinting works because the "same" parts aren't the same.
C: Tighten/loosen the extractor, then do some shooting and leave some brass lying around. They can loosen/tighten it themselves to get a match, but by then that is worthless as evidence and you have used brass to prove you haven't messed with it.
C: File down the extractor. This is obvious to the point of earning you a tampering with evidence charge if you have other evidence against you, but will completely change the profile.

cont
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>>28460182
CHAMBER/BREECH MARKINGS
A: Fire bad rounds through the gun. Weakened, deformed or split brass, hot loads, even an OOB detonation if you can manage it. All of these will impart significant wear to the chamber chamber & breech and change the markings it leaves on casings. Do it carefully and you won't destroy the gun in the process.
B: Detail strip it and take some grit sandpaper to the chamber parts. Don't overdo it or you'll damage the gun and it will be plainly obvious. Give it a good clean before reassembly so there's no actual grit left in the chamber.

RIMFIRE PIN MARKS
A: Dry-fire it. This will damage the pin and change the profile of the markings. Do it too much and you'll render the gun unusable.
B: Replace the spring, ideally with a heavier spring from a different gun. You may occasionally deal with FTEs but the profile will be quite different. Leave brass laying around shot from this configuration so you can contest you haven't changed it.

Any more questions?
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>>28458204
Get a new barrel, extractor, and ejector. Shoot about 300 rounds with the new parts.
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>>28458204
OP, if you're seriously thinking about shooting someone don't use a pistol. Buy a bolt action rifle in 30 cal. doesn't matter which one but you will need reloading equipment. Load a 22 bullet in a cal sabot. Use this, keep your brass. Problem solved
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>>28460273
I'm only interested in the science of it desu. Seems to me that OP already shot somebody and didn't really plan ahead.
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>>28460182
>>28460238
is this legit?
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>>28460281
Alrighty then. Still, if you ever need advice just come back and ask.
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>>28460182
I was under the impression that ballistic fingerprinting was done something like..
>shoot nigger
>cops arrest you
>pull mostly intact bullet out of nigger
>fire your gun into water/gel/whatever they use
>pull intact bullet out of bullet catching media
>compare bullets

it's not like there's a database of bullet "fingerprints". That would be pointless, because initial wear on a new gun would happen pretty quickly I imagine.
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>>28460357
>>compare bullets

Congratulations on missing the entire point of both posts.
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>>28460357
The whole idea is to change the markings on newly fired bullets/casings so that whatever they recovered doesn't match whatever they fire from your gun for comparison.

Seriously nigger?
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>>28459428
Or just taking a file to the end of your pin for a function reshape or fluf n buff
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>>28460182
You really can't change the twist rate unless you fill the old grooves and cut new ones, which is basically impossible to do and keep accurate, if do at all, unless you go to a larger caliber bore, which no local gunsmith is going to be able to do. Way cheaper to just buy a new barrel, off armslist or classifieds in forums for cash or money order.
>>
So ballistic forensics is laughable because it only really helps more concrete evidence which is like DNA or finger prints. The only real thing it does is find what type of gun the round was shot from and even then that is tricky because of things like polygonal barrels and the effects on casings the ejection port had on it.
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>>28458855
There are bigger concerns...
>>28458802
>work
Found the PMC
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>>28459953
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>>28460922
Something wrong with being a PMC?
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>>28458204
To match to YOUR gun, they have to suspect that your gun was used, get a warrant and test it. If theyre able to do all of that you're already fucked anyway.
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>>28458204
>I want to be able to shoot someone without getting caught
Everyone who is in this thread giving advice is the reason people don't want guns on the streets. If you intend on using your gun in a crime, go fuck yourself
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>>28460525
Someone did a study to see if removing the micro stamp from a firing pin would destroy the pin....it doesnt. You can actually remove a lot of metal before the firing pin starts to fail to strike the primer.

And no cop is going to take a magnifying glass to your firing pin at the range. It would only be an issue if you shot someone and were a suspect. Plus the study also confirmed that the micro stamp will wear away over time...

Tldr: a few strokes with a file across your firing pin will remove the micro stamp.
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>>28458734
Also, can you get another bullet shot out of the same model of gun to compare? If it's also identical, the picture oroves nothing
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>>28461192
>He makes a good point
...but we also dislike stupid ignorant rules that do notjing to stop or reduce crime, but that do make the life of gun owners diffucult
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>>28461134
Nope. Just sayin'.
>Mfw I'll never make that kind of money while living muh cowadoody fantasies
Why even live?
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>>28458276
But its not.
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>>28459601
But what you're not mentioning is those very fine grooves are created by things that can be variable (a burr in the metal that wears away over time, a grain of sand or some particulate matter, etc.)
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>>28459597
Why don't you just do some research on the subject instead of getting angry? Yes, there are class characteristics and individual characteristics when dealing with etchings in bullets. The etchings that can pinpoint which exact gun it came from are very iffy and can change over time.
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>>28460290
It would work, yes.

But it is stupid, time consuming, and if youre ordering replacement springs and small parts online leaves a hell of a paper trail for curcumstantial evidence.

How to do it the easy way:
1. Fire lap the barrel.
Go buy the smallest container of valve grinding compound the local Auto Zone or w/e has. Wax a couple loaded rounds. Roll the whole fucking thing, brass and all, in valve grinding compound. Fire 1-3 of these. Voila, permanently altered barrel that should also foul less and be easier to clean. Since you had abrasive media on the brass as well you just microscratched your chamber too, altering it enough to fuck any matches.
2. Remove firing pin, take a fine grit knife sharpening stone, give it like 10 passes. Reassemble, dryfire with snap caps or empty brass a couple hundred times.
3. Unless you have a 1911/BHP, dont fuck with any springs, extractors, or ejectors. Modern designs have so little variance even a public defender should be able to prove the "perfect match" from those marks on brass could be a perfect match for a quarter of all of that model ever produced.
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>>28459428

Maybe they just think itll catch the stupid people.
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>>28458801
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>>28458204
>take out barrel, firing pin, extractor
>melt them into a solid piece of metal with thermite
>throw piece of metal into river
why would you cheap out on something that may get you charged with murder?
best bet is to throw away/burn/melt anything you wore or used during the crime
>>
>>28458204
>completely disassemble gun
>go to nearest major city
>distribute parts into as many trash cans as possible
Only tards keep guns they've committed crimes with.
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>>28458204
Change the barrel. This can be done on most firearms.
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>>28461217
Believe me I agree with you on this, but making your gun untraceable is useless unless you were going to commit a crime.
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>>28459033

Or simply ziptie have your semi-auto in a plastic bag that's zip-tied around your wrist, à la Kevin Costner in Mr Brooks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4euC3f4Gb_A
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>>28458218
/thread
>>
>place gun in plastic bag before firing
>or use a revolver

it'sfuckingnothing.jpeg
>>
>>28463079
>marinating your hand in gunpowder residue
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>>28463367

I'll take "what are latex gloves?" for £500
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>>28459953
Thank you for your service
>>
>>28459428
>>28459486
>replace the firing pin
>California passes a law requiring all gun owners to have their firearms examined yearly to check microstamping, makes it a felony to alter or remove microstamping
>become felon

>>28460357
>it's not like there's a database of bullet "fingerprints"
>what is the National Integrated Ballistic Identification Network
>>
Why can't you just pick up your brass after firing? Then burning the brass in a fire or disposal of the brass completely. Why wouldn't this eliminate all the issues here?
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>>28466983
Then you keep the original and put it back in the gun when the yearly examination happens, c'mon man, not even California lawmakers let loopholes this big exist.
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>>28467598
>fumbling around in the dark looking for brass after you just murdered somebody in cold blood

you have bigger balls than most anon. better off to just make sure the rounds go in clean without prints on em.

>>28458204
if the bullet is well preserved they can usually match the rate of twist of the rifle to the bullet.
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>>28468985
you mean like how people put straight pipes on their car, then put their stock exhaust back on when they have to get smog checks?
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>park car on empty, remote street, car hazards on
>wait for somebody to pull over/flag them down
>gun them down with revolver with them in car, don't touch their car, you standing outside their car window
>go home, put brass in fire and mash it
>scuff up revolver barrel just in case
>burn all clothes associated with murder
>have some reason or proof you weren't on that road

How could you get caught in this? Literally a fool proof plan of murder.

I'm probably on like 6 different lists by now.
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