With all our soldiers getting body armor, how is it that any of them are dying? Legit question, especially with the coverage they're giving these days. Are they all getting shot in the face or are they bleeding out from minor wounds?
body armor isnt the end-all be-all of protection in a warzone. if a round impacts a plate, great, maybe some broken ribs. but if a round impacts anywhere else outside of the plates, now ur fucked.. also, IEDs and suicides play a large role
Fewer than 200 US servicemen have been killed by bullets combined between Iraq and Afghanistan in 12 years.
Almost all of them got shot in the face or neck, which is effectively impossible to armor.
to add to this, most plates worn by our service members are rated to stop at least one 7.62mm round, mostly because of the popularity of the AK weapons being used by most enemies. they fragment on impact and are not designed to withstand constant impact from subsequent rifle rounds. even then, if you get hit by an AK round while wearing plates, you're ass gonna fuckin know it and its gonna fuckin hurt
Dont listen to this dumbass.
Even the original SAPI plates from 2003 were 7.62x51 NATO multihit rated. ESAPI plates came out mid 05 and were 100% issue by early 2006, and those were .30-06 (7.62x63) AP multihit rated. The newest plate, the XSAPI, is .50BMG rated.
Well then I suppose its a good thing people who suffer injuries that dont immediately kill them have about a 95% of surviving long term thanks to the wonders of CLS, tourniquets, and modern CASEVAC.
Technically, it's entirely possible that a proper suit of armor (I don't know what SAPI is, but I'm assuming it's proper) would fail to work as tested due to an unrecognized defect or perform beyond its tested capabilities.
23 sounds like bullshit, but someone could have mag dumped on him and missed most of the shots.
They're tested to survive AT LEAST a certain about of rounds from a certain caliber, it's not unheard of or even unlikely to see them take far more than the minimum amount. So that anon's story is likely true.
Gun shots usually are not the thing that kills in modern war. Explosions in the last century have always been the main killer. Hence why artillery calls itself "the King of battle". Soft armor was issued to help with shrapnel, not bullets.
Chunks come out of them and idiot marine up there is parially correct in that they work by having a small area crumble out, but the plate doesnt fucking shatter like everybody's implying.
Also, having seen how little x39 actually does to armor I fully believe 23 consecutive rounds wouldnt penetrate an ESAPI. Theyre slow and light compared to pretty much any other 30cal.
Proof US military is better than any other wanna be faggot army. ie Russians, chinks, mudhuts, beaners, slavaboos, britbogns, australians(c.u.c.k.istania), whoever I left out is because they're not even worth typing.
To be fair, we generally dont get shot at all that much.
In 12 years we've lost a little over 10,000 servicemen (2950ish in Iraq, 6100ish in Astan, the rest to suicides and accidents at sea or in adjacent but not openly hostile countries).
Of that 10k, about 7200 are directly from enemy action (thats pretty sad actually, we kill ourselves about a third as well as the enemy does). And only 200 are from gunshots. The remaining 7000 are from RPGs and IEDs and mortars.
>rt as a source
When presented with a plethora of credible information that supports your side, why the fuck do you faggots still insist on using the shit that with discredit you?
I have had the unfortunate luck of seeing a fellow soldier get shot through his IBA soft armor. 9mm pistol from 20 feet away at most. he died because it destroyed one of his kidney's and he bleed out before he could get to the CASH in Balad.
X39 to the plate I didnt even notice. Went to pull a fresh mag a few minutes later and came up with just the baseplate. Looked down and the front of my vest was completely shredded.
Adrenaline is a hell of a thing. I dont know where the other 7 rounds went, he got the whole mag off, but they werent in me or anyone else. He kept the whole thing other than those 7 on a size medium ESAPI.
I got sore as shit through the collar bone and shoulders the next day but I think that was stress and adrenaline as much as it was impact.
As a side note I bet all these interesting tidbits of data are compiled somewhere in a politically toxic way (if they ever got exposure).
advance party to Camp Taji in early 2005. First time going to the gate where the locals get on base to work. checking over a truck so this guy and his retarded sons/brothers/cousins can fix up the building to be our future BN hq. 3 cars over someone goes all durkadurka and pulls out a tariq pistol and shoots one of the soliders that was supposed to escort him on base.
once we heard the gun shot we chambered weapons and had all our iraqis laying face down on the ground. The attacker gets a few dozen structurally superfluous holes put into him by so me other soldiers.
lots of screaming and cursing as they got medics and called for dustoff.
Goddamn. That sucks man, but still. IBA soft armor is supposed to be IIIA, his vest was either a dud or was in horrible shape.
Did you guys not get fresh guts for your vests at RFI?
>spent 04-05 in Tallafar, 06-07 in Mosul, 10-11 in Mosul again
because we only had a clinic there and the Balad has a CASH. So the helicopter in the air ambulance company lifted off from the flightly near by. Then sets down right there at the gate. Less than five minutes from the shooting. Then it is 15 minutes or less to Balad.
Rifle plate inserts only cover the vital organs in the torso. There are still plenty of other spots that you could get hit that could leave you bleeding out. It also doesn't discount taking a hit to the vitals if the shot comes in at the right angle. Or if you get nailed square in the chest with a long burst from a PKM (since the plate will likely break).
TLDR: Modern body armor doesn't make you the robocop/terminator able to just walk through rifle fire
One round of 7.62x51 ap, or 30-06 ap, or 7.62x54 ap. Depending on who's giving the test. That is lvl IV protection. Will stop a second shot 60% of the time
Will take plenty of fucking x39 you retard
You're wrong devil-douche. esapi's are lvl iv all by themselves, and sapi's are lvl iv with soft armor which the MTV and iotv have.
damage in a section does not mean the rest of the plate is a no go, nor does it mean it can't take more damage in the weakened section. You are a waste of oxygen.
Hopefully moving forward we learn from our mistakes.
>posts well known, public domain and easily verifiable specs
Yep he sure is an idiot huh.
You will notice the only people saying hes wrong are claiming to be Marines. So either yall are fucking morons like the stereotype or fucking liars like another stereotype
3 consecutive hits from 7.62x51 m80 ball @ 2750fps when backed by Interceptor soft body armor or similar
3 consecutive hits from .30-06 M2 AP (blacktip) @ no stated velocity when backed by Interceptor soft body armor or similar
No confirmed threat defeating capability, mission goal and all defense and congressional briefs say it will stop "more" than ESAPI while being appx. 0.4lbs per plate lighter (for a size med). One recorded brief to congress stated a prototype XSAPI could reliably stop a single hit from .50bmg M2 hmg (ball ammo, round designation not specified) at 50m. US mil has purchased 120,000 XSAPIs but they have not seen combat use according to any source I can find
I doubt XSAPIs would stop a .50 BMG or 12.7x101 round at all but the most extreme ranges.
ESAPIs are venerable to SLAP rounds (AP sabots) which I would guess is what XSAPIs were design to one up.
XSAPIs have also changed a lot.
At one point during testing and eval they were these humongous, 2"+ thick, 12lb+ monsters. Those might have actually been able to stop a .50bmg. But someone realized that was a bad idea and they evolved.
>prototype XSAPI could reliably stop a single hit from .50bmg
Interesting. I hadn't seen that, but the .50 requirement doesn't appear to have made the final spec. I was going off FQ/PD 07-03D, Section 1.1 "the insert will provide ballistic protection from specific 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm rifle rounds."
But the threats are not clearly defined, as you indicated.
Assuming the energy transfer doesnt stop his heart Id imagine just fine.
Hard trauma plates dont have any appreciable backface deformation (at least when hit by "normal" rifle rounds) so if a .50bmg can be shoulder fired, the impact being evenly distributed over a roughly 10x12" area shouldnt be unsurvivable.
far as I heard XSAPI's stop 2 AP 7.62x51mm
and they're far from 0.4lbs per plate
So wait if government soldiers are immune to small arms, and we're guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms that are able to defend against tyranny, then we need explosives to do so.
Don't give me none of that hippy shit, they let people own cannons back in the day that could destroy entire ships and houses. Neighborhoods even. Don't bitch that an "assault rifle" should be a restricted destructive device. But let's discuss whether or not explosives should be restricted.
I mean, look at the k/d ratio over in the sandbox. Those hadjis don't stand a chance just armed with rifles alone.
>when backed by soft armor
The mistake is found, my bad. I was looking at lvl iv standalones
I also failed to realize how different the standards between military and nij
The products and know how create most explosives is out there, if you want to.
I'll stick to my guns
Well considering ESAPIs stop THREE armor piercing rounds from a more powerful cartridge I rather expect it'll stop more than two. Unless youre referring to saboted tungsten AP, then I have no idea. That shits nasty.
And theyre not 0.4lbs, theyre 0.4lbs lighter than a same size ESAPI (6.4lbs vs 6.0lbs).
>Hard trauma plates dont have any appreciable backface deformation
Have to disagree with you. Assuming you mean ESAPI when you say normal rifle rounds, the published spec for max backface deformation (BFD) is over an inch and a half, which I would consider appreciable. At launch, the forces may be spread out, but not at impact.
Wait I'm fucking retarded. We can just get armor ourselves to even the odds, from armories/dead guys if necessary. But we live in enough comfort that we can buy them ahead of time, and they're cheap so why not have them?
It is perfectly legal to make and use explosives (at the Federal level anyway, there is a patchwork of state and local laws I cant predict).
You cannot store it more than 24hrs or transport it on public roads without a FEL though, and you cannot turn it into a "bomb" (device intended to inflict injury) without a form 1 for a destructive device (which is a hell of a paper trail and almost never granted to individuals).
But yeah, if youre willing to make it on site you are perfectly legal if you go make a million pounds of RDX out in the desert and blow it all at once. Youd make every agency on the globe shit themselves but they couldnt do anything to you.
Compared to the max backface deformation of soft armor its pretty small, but I get your point. I suppose it was a poor choice of words.
Do keep in mind that military plates are designed around the idea of a soft armor backer, despite the fact theyre often used as standalone.
>Do keep in mind that military plates are designed around the idea of a soft armor backer, despite the fact theyre often used as standalone.
Yes, true. And how they are actually used in the field probably varies a lot (standalone, w/soft armor, duct taped to the outside of a humvee door, etc.) from the design intent.
>What are head related injuries for $1000?
Underage, please go.
Rounds do not really break bones etc through armor. Think about it. If someone can shoulder a gun, and fire it without breaking their own bones, then the same bullet hitting a plate on someones shoulder will have impact the same as the recoil from firing it (a little less actually since it loses power over distance). The acception to the rule would be a gyrojet tround or similar rocket propelled which gets faster as it moves on.
uhh, gr8 b8. The force is spread over the entirety of the rifle firing the bullet, and it needs to exert more force to push on the rifle. When it's whizzing through the air, it's all that energy over a much smaller area.
>So wait if government soldiers are immune to small arms, and we're guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms that are able to defend against tyranny, then we need explosives to do so.
Congratulations, now you know why the 2A Shall Not Be Infringed
100% correct, so the plate breaks and dissipates the energy not only in the fracturing process of the plate but the spreading the energy out across the broken plate, leading to less overall recoil than the rifle it was shot from
l2 highschool physics
Could something like the tech in the link I just posted, be applied to small arms technology in order to defeat these amazingly effective body armor's? This is a very interesting subject as I am a guy obsessed with piercing armor. It's pretty obvious that typical small arm ammunition has reached its maximum effectiveness. Hell, even SLAP ammo is defeated by these body armors.
Perhaps we will see a new "wonder" material that is both more effective AND cheaper than Tungsten and DU? Or maybe an early implementation of railgun like technology that can give a boost in velocity to a standard propelled bullet?