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With all our soldiers getting body armor,...
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons

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With all our soldiers getting body armor, how is it that any of them are dying? Legit question, especially with the coverage they're giving these days. Are they all getting shot in the face or are they bleeding out from minor wounds?
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>>28431981
I.E.D.s
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>What are explosions?
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>>28431981
>what are explosives for $500
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>>28432003
>>28432009
What about in firefights?
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>>28431981
>Soldiers now effectively immune to small arms fire
>detonate 1-7 tons (2000-14000 pounds) of artillery shells under them instead
Were you born in 2004 or later?
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>>28431981
Legitimately, this board is for adults. I refuse to believe someone who has achieved adulthood can be this stupid.
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>>28431981
body armor isnt the end-all be-all of protection in a warzone. if a round impacts a plate, great, maybe some broken ribs. but if a round impacts anywhere else outside of the plates, now ur fucked.. also, IEDs and suicides play a large role
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>>28432050
Body armor only covers your chest vitals. You have all sorts of arteries and squishy parts that can be fucked up
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>>28432050
Fewer than 200 US servicemen have been killed by bullets combined between Iraq and Afghanistan in 12 years.

Almost all of them got shot in the face or neck, which is effectively impossible to armor.
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>>28431981
mortar rounds and IEDs
haji kids with russian grenades
blue on green attacks
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>>28432110
Whoa
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>>28432097
to add to this, most plates worn by our service members are rated to stop at least one 7.62mm round, mostly because of the popularity of the AK weapons being used by most enemies. they fragment on impact and are not designed to withstand constant impact from subsequent rifle rounds. even then, if you get hit by an AK round while wearing plates, you're ass gonna fuckin know it and its gonna fuckin hurt
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>>28432154
Dont listen to this dumbass.

Even the original SAPI plates from 2003 were 7.62x51 NATO multihit rated. ESAPI plates came out mid 05 and were 100% issue by early 2006, and those were .30-06 (7.62x63) AP multihit rated. The newest plate, the XSAPI, is .50BMG rated.
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Because they government won't spend the price of a new Bradley on buying power armor for all the infantry.

We could have power armor right now.
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>>28432253
>.50 bmg rated
holy hell
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>>28432253
nigger, shoot an issued SAPI in an issued plate carrier today with an AK and it'll fragment with 1 round. 5-year Marine here dude that's how they work
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>>28431981
Why does korea have a m16
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>>28432097
Well then I suppose its a good thing people who suffer injuries that dont immediately kill them have about a 95% of surviving long term thanks to the wonders of CLS, tourniquets, and modern CASEVAC.
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>>28432296
11.5 year Army vet here who took 23 consecutive 7.62x39 rounds to a SAPI at less than 5 feet.

Plate stayed together.
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>>28432306
>>28431981
Also why dosent the gulf war and iraq war guys not have ALICE?
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>>28431981

>no cover on the rev war soldier

>marching at port arms

dafuq man
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>>28432154
>>28432296
I'm pretty sure they are tested to withstand 3 rounds, not 1.

>>28432322
Although that sounds like bullshit to me.
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>>28431981

Body armor is not infallible, especially at close range, and it does not provide cover for all body parts.
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>>28431981
You can tell they had to have at least half black and half white for that photo, but didn't want to have every other person be a nigger so they cleverly clumped the negroes in
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>>28432322
5 year Marine? I meant 35 year SOF and over 300 confirmed kills
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>>28432322
9 year army vet.

I took one x54r round to the chest plate and it shattered. This was back in 2005. I had a bruise the size of a bowling ball on my chest for a month.
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>>28432341

Technically, it's entirely possible that a proper suit of armor (I don't know what SAPI is, but I'm assuming it's proper) would fail to work as tested due to an unrecognized defect or perform beyond its tested capabilities.

23 sounds like bullshit, but someone could have mag dumped on him and missed most of the shots.
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>>28432341
They're tested to survive AT LEAST a certain about of rounds from a certain caliber, it's not unheard of or even unlikely to see them take far more than the minimum amount. So that anon's story is likely true.
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>>28432341
ya i read that too. Idk man every SAPI i've seen thats been impacted has been shattered. It's a ceramic plate, it simply doesnt have the durability for sustained impacts
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>>28431981
Gun shots usually are not the thing that kills in modern war. Explosions in the last century have always been the main killer. Hence why artillery calls itself "the King of battle". Soft armor was issued to help with shrapnel, not bullets.
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>>28432341
They do.

Chunks come out of them and idiot marine up there is parially correct in that they work by having a small area crumble out, but the plate doesnt fucking shatter like everybody's implying.

Also, having seen how little x39 actually does to armor I fully believe 23 consecutive rounds wouldnt penetrate an ESAPI. Theyre slow and light compared to pretty much any other 30cal.
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>>28432110
Proof US military is better than any other wanna be faggot army. ie Russians, chinks, mudhuts, beaners, slavaboos, britbogns, australians(c.u.c.k.istania), whoever I left out is because they're not even worth typing.
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>>28432365
That I believe.

But x54r is typically both a true AP round, you had an original, probably end-of-life SAPI instead of ESAPI, and x54r has about 4x the energy at 100m as x39.
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>>28432439
hurt like hell too. was already dragged behind the m113 before I got my wits back. medevac to Balad's CASH. Then a week in my trailer eating percocets.
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>>28432420
To be fair, we generally dont get shot at all that much.

In 12 years we've lost a little over 10,000 servicemen (2950ish in Iraq, 6100ish in Astan, the rest to suicides and accidents at sea or in adjacent but not openly hostile countries).

Of that 10k, about 7200 are directly from enemy action (thats pretty sad actually, we kill ourselves about a third as well as the enemy does). And only 200 are from gunshots. The remaining 7000 are from RPGs and IEDs and mortars.
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>>28432043
a felony
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>>28432127
>rt as a source
When presented with a plethora of credible information that supports your side, why the fuck do you faggots still insist on using the shit that with discredit you?
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>>28432517
mostly because the military thought they could use humvees as combat vehicles, baka
And now that Iraq/afghanistan is done, they'll be using JLTV's as combat vehicles.
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Academic material:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbyUQUBinvs
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>>28432110
I have had the unfortunate luck of seeing a fellow soldier get shot through his IBA soft armor. 9mm pistol from 20 feet away at most. he died because it destroyed one of his kidney's and he bleed out before he could get to the CASH in Balad.
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>>28432517
any idea how many of those involved helicopters?
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>>28432482
X39 to the plate I didnt even notice. Went to pull a fresh mag a few minutes later and came up with just the baseplate. Looked down and the front of my vest was completely shredded.

Adrenaline is a hell of a thing. I dont know where the other 7 rounds went, he got the whole mag off, but they werent in me or anyone else. He kept the whole thing other than those 7 on a size medium ESAPI.

I got sore as shit through the collar bone and shoulders the next day but I think that was stress and adrenaline as much as it was impact.
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>>28432576
If I werent on mobile I could look it up.

Its a fairly large number but ultimately nowhere near a majority.
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>>28432552
Wow, that is shitty.

His vest must have been in terrible shape, ive personally seen IBA soft armor stop multiple hits from 7.62 tok from a pps43.
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>>28432576
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and_accidents_during_the_Iraq_War

As a side note I bet all these interesting tidbits of data are compiled somewhere in a politically toxic way (if they ever got exposure).
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>>28432639
advance party to Camp Taji in early 2005. First time going to the gate where the locals get on base to work. checking over a truck so this guy and his retarded sons/brothers/cousins can fix up the building to be our future BN hq. 3 cars over someone goes all durkadurka and pulls out a tariq pistol and shoots one of the soliders that was supposed to escort him on base.

once we heard the gun shot we chambered weapons and had all our iraqis laying face down on the ground. The attacker gets a few dozen structurally superfluous holes put into him by so me other soldiers.

lots of screaming and cursing as they got medics and called for dustoff.
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>>28432296
Fucking marines.
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>>28432698
Goddamn. That sucks man, but still. IBA soft armor is supposed to be IIIA, his vest was either a dud or was in horrible shape.

Did you guys not get fresh guts for your vests at RFI?

>spent 04-05 in Tallafar, 06-07 in Mosul, 10-11 in Mosul again
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>>28432698
Maybe I'm just reading your post incorrectly, but why did you need a dustoff if you were already on Taji?
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>>28432836
my Bn got all new IBAs with SAPI plates at RFI.

If I remember correctly. The guy that died was 1st Cav. 1st Cav aviation units had been there in iraq more or less since 2003.
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>>28432325
And couldn't they rustle up a couple of k-pots for them, too?
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>>28432871
Oh, he wasnt with you then. Sorry, guess I read too much into it.

Yeah, sweat does terrible things to soft armor.
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>>28432845
because we only had a clinic there and the Balad has a CASH. So the helicopter in the air ambulance company lifted off from the flightly near by. Then sets down right there at the gate. Less than five minutes from the shooting. Then it is 15 minutes or less to Balad.
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>>28432050
Face, especially neck (carotid/air), hips, thighs and axillary area.
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>>28432898
Its just like that "IJR army uniforms since 1776 " shit
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>>28432253
Holy shit you're an idiot.

Sincerely former 0321/8427.
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>>28431981
Are you the same kid that was asking about rifle round proof helmets?
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>>28432989
Army dude here; how does that work for the Force Recon Corspman? I thought all your Corpsman came from the Navy.
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>>28432050
Rifle plate inserts only cover the vital organs in the torso. There are still plenty of other spots that you could get hit that could leave you bleeding out. It also doesn't discount taking a hit to the vitals if the shot comes in at the right angle. Or if you get nailed square in the chest with a long burst from a PKM (since the plate will likely break).

TLDR: Modern body armor doesn't make you the robocop/terminator able to just walk through rifle fire
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>>28432154
One round of 7.62x51 ap, or 30-06 ap, or 7.62x54 ap. Depending on who's giving the test. That is lvl IV protection. Will stop a second shot 60% of the time

Will take plenty of fucking x39 you retard

>>28432296
You're wrong devil-douche. esapi's are lvl iv all by themselves, and sapi's are lvl iv with soft armor which the MTV and iotv have.

>>28432388
damage in a section does not mean the rest of the plate is a no go, nor does it mean it can't take more damage in the weakened section. You are a waste of oxygen.

>>28432517
Hopefully moving forward we learn from our mistakes.
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>>28432517

>those wack numbers


"As of October 1, 2015, there have been 2,326 U.S. military deaths in the War in Afghanistan. 1,856 of these deaths have been the result of hostile action."
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>>28432989
>posts well known, public domain and easily verifiable specs
Yep he sure is an idiot huh.

You will notice the only people saying hes wrong are claiming to be Marines. So either yall are fucking morons like the stereotype or fucking liars like another stereotype
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>>28433121
By bad. Was going off memory.
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>>28432253
Going to call BS on the .50 BMG requirement. Look up the PD for XSAPI. Even if you could stop it, the BFD would ruin your day.
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>>28433122
Some of his numbers are bad. esapi was the one that jumped out at me. 100% for the first shot, 60% of the time for the second. Anything else was too heavy.
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>>28433169
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arms_Protective_Insert
>SAPI
3 consecutive hits from 7.62x51 m80 ball @ 2750fps when backed by Interceptor soft body armor or similar
>ESAPI
3 consecutive hits from .30-06 M2 AP (blacktip) @ no stated velocity when backed by Interceptor soft body armor or similar

Various sources
>XSAPI
No confirmed threat defeating capability, mission goal and all defense and congressional briefs say it will stop "more" than ESAPI while being appx. 0.4lbs per plate lighter (for a size med). One recorded brief to congress stated a prototype XSAPI could reliably stop a single hit from .50bmg M2 hmg (ball ammo, round designation not specified) at 50m. US mil has purchased 120,000 XSAPIs but they have not seen combat use according to any source I can find
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>>28433291
No, his numbers were not since he simply said "multihit rated" which they are.

Also all sources I can find say they have to stop 3 rounds in a row.

Wikipedia agrees.
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>>28433328|
I doubt XSAPIs would stop a .50 BMG or 12.7x101 round at all but the most extreme ranges.

ESAPIs are venerable to SLAP rounds (AP sabots) which I would guess is what XSAPIs were design to one up.
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>>28433363
XSAPIs have also changed a lot.

At one point during testing and eval they were these humongous, 2"+ thick, 12lb+ monsters. Those might have actually been able to stop a .50bmg. But someone realized that was a bad idea and they evolved.
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>>28433328
I wonder what the guy under the plate would look like after it stopped that .50 BMG hit
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>>28433328
>prototype XSAPI could reliably stop a single hit from .50bmg

Interesting. I hadn't seen that, but the .50 requirement doesn't appear to have made the final spec. I was going off FQ/PD 07-03D, Section 1.1 "the insert will provide ballistic protection from specific 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm rifle rounds."

But the threats are not clearly defined, as you indicated.
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>>28433563
Assuming the energy transfer doesnt stop his heart Id imagine just fine.

Hard trauma plates dont have any appreciable backface deformation (at least when hit by "normal" rifle rounds) so if a .50bmg can be shoulder fired, the impact being evenly distributed over a roughly 10x12" area shouldnt be unsurvivable.
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>>28433328
far as I heard XSAPI's stop 2 AP 7.62x51mm
and they're far from 0.4lbs per plate
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>>28432079
So wait if government soldiers are immune to small arms, and we're guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms that are able to defend against tyranny, then we need explosives to do so.

Don't give me none of that hippy shit, they let people own cannons back in the day that could destroy entire ships and houses. Neighborhoods even. Don't bitch that an "assault rifle" should be a restricted destructive device. But let's discuss whether or not explosives should be restricted.

I mean, look at the k/d ratio over in the sandbox. Those hadjis don't stand a chance just armed with rifles alone.
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>>28433354
>when backed by soft armor
The mistake is found, my bad. I was looking at lvl iv standalones
I also failed to realize how different the standards between military and nij

>>28433825
The products and know how create most explosives is out there, if you want to.
I'll stick to my guns
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>>28433802
Well considering ESAPIs stop THREE armor piercing rounds from a more powerful cartridge I rather expect it'll stop more than two. Unless youre referring to saboted tungsten AP, then I have no idea. That shits nasty.

And theyre not 0.4lbs, theyre 0.4lbs lighter than a same size ESAPI (6.4lbs vs 6.0lbs).
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>>28433766
>Hard trauma plates dont have any appreciable backface deformation
Have to disagree with you. Assuming you mean ESAPI when you say normal rifle rounds, the published spec for max backface deformation (BFD) is over an inch and a half, which I would consider appreciable. At launch, the forces may be spread out, but not at impact.
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>>28433825
Wait I'm fucking retarded. We can just get armor ourselves to even the odds, from armories/dead guys if necessary. But we live in enough comfort that we can buy them ahead of time, and they're cheap so why not have them?
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>>28433967
ah ok yeah.
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>>28431981
Isn't it past your bedtime? You have school tomorrow.
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>>28433825
It is perfectly legal to make and use explosives (at the Federal level anyway, there is a patchwork of state and local laws I cant predict).

You cannot store it more than 24hrs or transport it on public roads without a FEL though, and you cannot turn it into a "bomb" (device intended to inflict injury) without a form 1 for a destructive device (which is a hell of a paper trail and almost never granted to individuals).

But yeah, if youre willing to make it on site you are perfectly legal if you go make a million pounds of RDX out in the desert and blow it all at once. Youd make every agency on the globe shit themselves but they couldnt do anything to you.
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>>28433980
Compared to the max backface deformation of soft armor its pretty small, but I get your point. I suppose it was a poor choice of words.

Do keep in mind that military plates are designed around the idea of a soft armor backer, despite the fact theyre often used as standalone.
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>>28434093
>Do keep in mind that military plates are designed around the idea of a soft armor backer, despite the fact theyre often used as standalone.

Yes, true. And how they are actually used in the field probably varies a lot (standalone, w/soft armor, duct taped to the outside of a humvee door, etc.) from the design intent.
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>>28432154
>>28432296
>>28432388
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9nsT05SsFU
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>>28434050
>without a form 1 for a destructive device (which is a hell of a paper trail and almost never granted to individuals).
Form 1s are easy
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>>28434211
Not for DDs. Those get the microscope.
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>>28432043
500? Shit I knew a guy in army selling gernades for 200 usd once,
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>What are head related injuries for $1000?

Underage, please go.
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Rounds do not really break bones etc through armor. Think about it. If someone can shoulder a gun, and fire it without breaking their own bones, then the same bullet hitting a plate on someones shoulder will have impact the same as the recoil from firing it (a little less actually since it loses power over distance). The acception to the rule would be a gyrojet tround or similar rocket propelled which gets faster as it moves on.
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>>28432253
>XSAPI being .50 BMG rated
Might stop the round but I have doubts how to prevent 2,800 ft/lbs of force making your dick shoot out your asshole
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>>28436540
uhh, gr8 b8. The force is spread over the entirety of the rifle firing the bullet, and it needs to exert more force to push on the rifle. When it's whizzing through the air, it's all that energy over a much smaller area.
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>>28436570
Until it hits the plate, which is the same mass (give or take) as a rifle. It is then spread out again.
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>>28436583
Plate isnt made with same material was rifle. Different materials respond differently to force.
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>>28433825
>So wait if government soldiers are immune to small arms, and we're guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms that are able to defend against tyranny, then we need explosives to do so.
Congratulations, now you know why the 2A Shall Not Be Infringed
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>>28436610
100% correct, so the plate breaks and dissipates the energy not only in the fracturing process of the plate but the spreading the energy out across the broken plate, leading to less overall recoil than the rifle it was shot from
l2 highschool physics
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>>28436583
>26 lb rifle stabilized with a bipod and fuckhueg brake
>6 lb plate
>same mass, give or take
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>>28436641
an M4or AK weight roughly 5 pounds, not 26, dumby
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>>28432306
>over four feet tall?
what does this mean?
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http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/WednesdayReunionDavidSmith.pdf

Could something like the tech in the link I just posted, be applied to small arms technology in order to defeat these amazingly effective body armor's? This is a very interesting subject as I am a guy obsessed with piercing armor. It's pretty obvious that typical small arm ammunition has reached its maximum effectiveness. Hell, even SLAP ammo is defeated by these body armors.

Perhaps we will see a new "wonder" material that is both more effective AND cheaper than Tungsten and DU? Or maybe an early implementation of railgun like technology that can give a boost in velocity to a standard propelled bullet?
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>>28436641
Loaded ar is 7.5 pounds
Loaded ak is 9 or 10

The force you feel is received through the stock, which has less surface area than a plate
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>>28432542
RT rarely has errors of commission, only errors of omission.
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