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Space Warfare
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons

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So, I've been watching too much Gundam cartoons recently, and amidst all the full retard "giant people robots in space," it's had me wondering about the more believable aspects of the show - the space combat.

So how would space combat in the near future occur? In a world where people have just started to colonize the space immediately around earth, how would a war play out? What would spaceships look like?
>>
It'd be like extremely long ranged submarine combat.

Fighting from enclosed containers in three dimensions in hostile environments.
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We wouldn't be doing it. Too soft and squishy, too slow. It would be all drone combat. No need for slow maneuvers, no need for atmo, no need to wait for the grey matter to start reacting.
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>>23164566
I understand your point there, but in LEO, it seems like it'd be a bit more two-dimensional.

Especially in the Gundam scenario mentioned in the OP, it seems like you'd have most fighting occurring along a single plane, as all of the colonies exist in the Earth-Moon Lagrange points.

When you get closer to earth, you'd start running into issues of being able to hide behind the horizon, as well as not being able to descend too low without risking re-entry.
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>>23164657
Play KSP. Learn orbital mechanics.
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>>23164684
I've played it. Aerospace engineering major as well. I understand how fucking hard things are to manage, even in something as simplified as KSP.

The reason I say it'd be more two-dimensional (at least with orbit further out) is that because the moon and the Lagrange points all exist on the same plane, you'd have the majority of travel (and consequently majority of combat) occur fairly close to this plane.

Designs like pic related, with all armament concentrated upwards and forwards, of course are about as well thought out as Gundams themselves, but it doesn't seem like you'd have equal likelihood of attack coming from any direction.
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>>23164734
>you'd have the majority of travel (and consequently majority of combat) occur fairly close to this plane.

You do raise a good point but that only works in a pitched battle where fleets and their respective ships are tethered logistically or are forced into defending key strategic points.

However, this does not prevent ships or even drones packed with analogous to modern day anti ship or cruise missiles from loitering off the plane or in an 'empty area' so the attack comes from an unexpected direction. Depending on resources, it would certainly be a worthwhile strategy to implement.

But like others have said, drones and missiles would rule the day. Especially drones carrying missiles that can park itself in space for an extended periods of time to activate when a conflict arises.
>>
Here's what would happen
You're in your windowless barebones ship, which is for some reason not remote controlled.
Your radar picks up a target 2000 kilometers away. The ships gunner fires a missile or railgun projectile at the target, while the pilot tries to change trajectory to confuse the enemy targeting computer which has almost certainly also locked on and fired upon you. Hopefully the countermeasures take care of any incoming projectiles, but if they dont, the only thing separating the entire crew from instant death by what will probably be a nuclear warhead is roughly a half hour of waiting.
If you manage to take out the enemy, congratulations, the blip on your radar is now gone. Mission success.
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>>23164684
KSP doesnt have lagrange points because the devs are incompetent mexican fucks who are too busy sleeping to do a single line of code.
So using "play KSP" as an example of a way to learn orbital mechanics just makes you look like a fucking dumbass.
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>>23164891
The only issue I see with loitering out of the main plane of operations is that it wouldn't really be "loitering" (at least not efficiently).

You'd have to shift your plane of orbit, meaning that you'd have something more akin to a polar orbit. So any "surprise" attack would have to be carefully coordinated with your orbit for your out-of-plane vehicle to be close enough to actually launch its weapons.
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>>23164734
The ecliptic and surrounding space will be the place where much of the action happens, yes, but polar orbits are also common. Using really eccentric, wacky, energy-inefficient orbits will be the domain of the military.
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>first atmospheric/extra-atmospheric superiority craft confirmed
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>>23164989
>the YF23 will never enter service
why even live
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>>23165000
>yiff
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>>23164518
Depends on the method of travel.
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>>23165004
What?
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>>23165000
>implying it wasn't too much weapon for the time
>implying we didn't push it into service then because the world wasn't ready
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It will be just like Lensman. Which none of you underage b& faggots have read.
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>>23164917

Someones read The Forever War I see
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>>23164518
One thing everyone forgets but I appreciate a lot in Gundam is.

...the battle is still in Earth Space.

I mean, its not out there needing WARP & SLEEPER SHIPS but on some objects close by and around earth.

That said: being infantry in Gundamverse sucks massive shit-smeared dick.
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>>23165040
Oh wait, this isnt a mecha/gundam thread

Please direct me to a dick to suck.
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>>23164987
The issue I could see with polar orbits is that they'd still be fairly predictable, but with the added downside of having a very short window of opportunity for deploying weapons.

Just look at the polar orbits that spy satellites use. They're so predictable, and with such a short overhead time, that you can fairly easily schedule things around their orbits.

>>23165040
Which Gundamverse? There's like 4 or 5.
>G Gundam is best Gundam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1UuEHmxG0U
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Depends on how advanced you're talking

Early combat will probably revolve around using gravity wells to your advantage in low to mid orbit, either to escape pursuers or as a slingshot, or capital ships at standoff range blasting at each other with super dense projectiles. The winner would be the one which detected and identified its opponent first, and which was ablt to get a successful firing solution first.

Deeper space combat will be very much like defeat in detail- coordinated fleets using FTL to outrun distress transmissions of their previous target and get the drop on the next with overwhelming force.

In the long run it could boil down to ships clandestinely torpedoing each other with nanomachine warheads, letting the nanomachines proliferate throughout an enemy's docks and orbital habitats before going active and mass replicating, basically grey-gooing an enemy's capability to wage war.
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Lots and lots of turret shooting at kilometers away object
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China was found to have placed explosive in their satalites. These explosives were lined with thousands of ball bearings.
>if exploded the ball bearings would quickly destroy all satalites orbiting earth, and make leaving earth impossible for oh say 80 years until all the debris falls to earth

The chinese plan to "scrub space" if the west used it against china
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>>23165059
>G Gundam
>best Gundam
>tfw
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>>23165059
Contrary to the popular adage "no stealth in space," spy satellites (which can be larger than the Hubble, btw) are rumored to apply some forms of optical/infrared shielding.
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>>23165070
OK this is horrifying.
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>>23165000
It lives on in our memories and on one of my shelves. Never forget.
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>>23165075
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>>23164518
read this nigger
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewarintro.php
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>>23165075
Oh god yes. It's so ridiculously over-the-top, yet it takes itself completely seriously.

>>23165077
Well "stealth" in space does seem feasible - just making sure your IR signature is as low as possible. The further out you get, the harder you're going to be to track, and without a good heat signature, you'd be very difficult to find.

One thing that's always bugged me about the space combat in the Gundam universe, however, is the amount of manuevering they do.

I mean, I can suspend disbelief for all of the crazy robot stuff, but I can't understand how they aren't running out of fuel with all of this inefficient use of thrust.
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>>23165088
It's so brutally efficient
>No round eye gunna drop in on us from orbit, or use no ion cannon neither, hehehe newage-chinese secret
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>>23165101
Minovsky Particle Fusion Reactors.

Minovsky Particles pretty much the equivalent of magical fairy dust.
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>>23165101
This, stealth in space is way easier than stealth on earth. Just apply thermal and EM shielding, turn off all the lights, and paint it black.
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>>23165070
except that is fiction
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>>23165142
no faggot, there is not stealth in space. anyone with thermals will pick you up.
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>>23165000
whats so good about it?
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>>23165137
Maybe in the Universal Century universe, but in the other ones I've watched it isn't explained.

You do have other plot-armor like
>gundanium alloy
>phase shift armor
>neutron jammers
>neutron jammer cancelers

>>23165142
So are you saying that this was actually the most realistic gundam?
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>>23165160
Did you not read the part where I said themal shielding? Or were you really too dense to read half a dozen sentences in?
>>23165172
No because it has giant golden eyebrows and probably doesnt have effective EM or thermal shielding either
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>>23165059
UC Century.
>>
back to more realistic, super-short term thinking:

What about "spaceplane fighters" like the MiG-105 and Dyna-Soar? Would they be a viable idea?
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>>23165180
No such thing.
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>>23165166
It was way faster, much stealthier, and had better proven computer tech. The only reason NG didnt get the contract is because they already had the B2.
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>>23165189
Not really no. A remote satellite with a few guided missiles would be far more effective.
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>>23165180
where will the heat in space go exactly? will it disappear magically? you are a fucking idiot
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>>23165195
Well "thermal shielding" could be done through heat pumps pulling heat from the exterior and dumping them to a part of the ship either on the interior or shielded from the observer.

Very difficult to do, but not impossible (at least in theory)
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>>23165220
Heat will dissipate in the direction opposite to the shielding.
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Guys guys. How about, we weaponize the Space Shuttle.
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>>23165246
there is not convection in space faggot.
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Self guided missiles launched by rail guns.

Launch in general direction of enemy, travels set distance without engines and very minimal electronics for stealth then passive radio turns on to find target and compressed air adjusts course, once target is within a km it goes loud, radar and rockets kick on for the kill
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>>23165255
Look at my radiators, you dumb fuck. I said look.
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>>23165220
I never said it had to dissapear magically, but there are ways to hide a thermal signature. Don't be such a fucking toddler.
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>>23165276
lol what happens when someone shoots your radiators
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>>23165255
I think the idea is this:
>"shielding" on exterior
>heat pumps pull heat out of shielding
>pull heat to insulated "heat dump" away from observer
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>>23165282
well they wouldnt bloody shoot the radiators if they don't know it's there you vapid cunt
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>>23165282
As I said previously, they are in the direction opposite to the shielding. What are you, retarded? Why do I have to repeat everything?
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>>23165220
just one example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlLqdFsMnCE
You dont have to magically get the heat to disappear, you just have to hide it.
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>>23165279
if they can spot voyager 1 they can spot you
http://txchnologist.com/post/61492589701/did-you-know-we-can-still-spot-voyager-1
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>>23165305
Voyager One was a 20th century exploration probe, not a military grade stealth satellite, you fucking moron. Seriously, read a fucking book.
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>>23165000
>000
Trips confirm YF-23 god-tier
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>>23165305
But you see, we know exactly where V'Ger is because we have models that predict it. When you start zooming into the sky, it becomes exceedingly HUGE.
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>>23164935
You learn how orbits work asshole.

Untill you have made a game similar to KSP including the L points, then you can call them incompetent. Otherwise, keep to your dayjob of sucking cock for a nickel a piece.
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>>23165336
>hurr durr you cant do better since you cant do it yourself
I do however play games made by people that actually have done better, for example Orbiter.
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>>23165329
Rd = ( 17.8E6 * sqrt( Ms*As*Isp*(1-Nd)*(1-Ns) ) ) * (sqrt(0.04 * π))

where:

Rd = maximum detection range (kilometers)
Ms = bogey spacecraft mass (tons)
As = bogey spacecraft acceleration (G)
Isp = bogey drive specific impulse (seconds)
Nd = bogey drive efficiency (0.0 to 1.0)
Ns = bogey "stealth efficiency", i.e. fraction of waste energy which can be magically shielded from enemy detectors. (0.0 to 1.0)
π = 3.141593...

sure nigger
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>>23165358
You cant do the math, but NASA can with computers that know most of those variables, so they can.
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>>23165358
from here
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php
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>>23165329
takes about 4 hours the scan the entire sky
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How accurate/efficient would guided missiles be in space? Since they can't use fins, they'd have to spend extra propellant every time they change direction, wouldn't they?
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>>23165618
You'd need to have a vernier system for the missile to maneuver and it would require a pretty fair amount of propellent. On the bright side...no limit on payload weight.
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>>23164935
Learn2mods faggot. Kerbal Space Program is just the skeleton, you get the rest of the experience from the countless mods made for the game. Fuck, they even have a link to the download site on the game's main menu
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>>23165635
If the missile is to be practical, their is a payload weight.

Short answer: Inertia is a bitch.

Long answer: If you have the motor to sustain a great enough acceleration as a smaller payload would give, sure. But it will pobably not workout that way.
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>>23165618
SM3 Kinetic kill vehicle, (its in japanese but you'll get the idea)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pViLbVTY0z0

It's n interesting point though because it suggests that guided missiles in space will be ball shaped rather than tube shaped to allow them to alter course in any direction.
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Once you are trackable you are dead. Evasive maneuvers wouldn't work due to the limits on your reaction mass. And if you are not trackable you are probably no danger. Preparing a powerful laser requires a huge reactor output. Your enemy just needs a satellite that scans the sky for miniscule changes in radiation. And your high proper motion would make you look fishy.
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>>23165732
Given that evasive would be hard as a bitch in space, as long as you could get enough initial Gs worth of thrust a few short bursts plus the vernier system will allow for pretty stupidly high relative velocity, then a combination of kinetic kill payload and HE would do the heavy lifting, a delivery system about the size of a tomahawk would probably be more than adequate.
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I suppose it all depends on angle of attack, and if you think about it all fights will be either head on or chasing from behind, after all there are not that many places in space to go and at some point you are going to have to close the distance with the enemy.

So if you think about it its not 3 dimensional at all, its a two dimensional game of battleship, ships move up, down, left and right as they fly towards each other at high speed. The trick then is to guess which square they will occupy when your weapons fire reaches them.
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>>23164518

Space Warfare in Space Operas only works because they all bend the laws of physics.

1. All ships in any space combat scifi story use practically reactionless drives. They all have incredible accelleration without large proppellant tanks.
2. They all have magical heatsinks. They have superpowerful reactors yet no radiators.
3. Inertial dampeners prevent the crew getting squished to jelly.
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>>23165618
they would probably work more effectively in space than on earth, however railguns fired at mach 30 would work way better
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>>23164518
I think you should first think about what the goals of your space warfare would be. Why would anybody even bother to use spaceships in the first place? A2/AD with kinetic guns would be king.
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>>23165997
>thinks railguns would work better in space than rockets
You're very stupid unless you're ok with your railgun shooting in two, completely opposite, directions at the same time.
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>>23164917
>blip on your radar
We better have a fucking 3d holographic rendered radar by then, but otherwise id say you're pretty spot on.
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I remeber watching anime that had some of these ideas.

Spaceships/crew dead becouse incoming fire caused systems to overheat.

Stealth ship was detected just by shooting tons of missiles inside know target range until you saw the shadow infront of explosion.

And as in all animus, there needs to be some superpower/other shit and in this case it was the fact that the ship could fucking turn and accelerate fast enough in space and it could fire more than once in cerntain timeframe the laser/energy/whatever weapon before long recharge.

Otherwise it was pretty crap.
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>>23165997
There's no sound in space so no such thing as mach speed. You men to say about 30,000 km/h, which, if a ship in earth orbit and moon orbit were to fire at each other the projectiles would take 10 to 15 hours to reach their target.
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>>23166047
Railguns would be cheaper and harder to evade, which would be very important in orbital warfare, considering ammo would be very limited. Also I dont think you know how recoil mitigation works.
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>>23166044
Well in the context of the Gundam series, space warfare generally seems to center around attacking spacecraft going to and from the colonies, and trying to destroy the colonies.
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>>23166075
>there's no such thing as mach speed in space
do you have any idea how retarded you sound? Mach is the speed of sound on earth.
Also rockets would probably have way more trouble getting to that speed in space than railguns, for more energy consumption.
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>>23166098
The only people to ever fuck with the colonies were zeon, the purported champions of the colonial peoples. Not saying the federation were saints, no one in the OYW era is, but the zeons were far worse.
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Quick question -

For space combat, wouldn't something to the effect of a cannon-sized shotgun be most effective? Why do shows/movies always use single-beam lasers or missiles that can miss?

Space is huge with no resistance. Wouldn't a giant expanding cloud of 1oz steel BBs moving at thousands of meters/sec utterly devastate anything, rather than a missile which might take out a deck?
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Heavily armed battleships with their own compliment of fighters. Fighters and bombers will have their place in space. Just as they have shown to be incredibly effective on sea so will they also be in space. Every capitol class ship will have some extra fighter or bomber support. You'll have a carrier which will have most of the wings then battleships supporting the carrier, destroyers and corvettes supporting the rest. Fleets will have to be fast as hell to cover the distances and then be able to slug it out in close combat with full wings. Everything will be just as chaotic as it is in a real naval battle when two carrier fleets meet.

Piracy will be rampant. Shipping will need to exist to support colonies and other settlements and that shipping will be subject to piracy. The pirates will have faster ships than the military, less armed most likely because they're looking at getting in, disabling a ship and stealing the cargo then getting out instead of engaging in armed conflict. Pirates will exist and may even be sanctioned as Privateers by certain governments.

Navigation will be the most critical thing of all so you don't end up in the gravity well of some star and get pulled in. Mapping the systems and the courses will be the highest priority within the first decade of star travel assuming you can go faster than light.

As people get further and further away from Earth they'll have less and less support with the home planet and may even break off into confederacies.

Your basic Up/Down orientation won't work. You'll need to have an XYZ orientation. What's your up may be the enemy's down. You could come in at any angle and so could they. That's why battleships need to have guns pointing every which way. This is also why bridges or CIC's won't be visible and will be inside the ship for protection.
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>>23166104
Mach speed means breaking the sound barrier, the speed is different at different altitudes (~1050km/h at sea level) but is generally approximated to about 1000 km/h.

Since sound cannot travel in space there is no sound barrier to break, thus no mach speed.

You also seem to suck at physics the energy required to get a rocket or bullet to any speed is function of their mass.
>>23166086
Again, basic thermodynamics tells us that every action has an equal and opposite reaction if you're going to fire a 1 kg projectile at 10,000 km/h out of a 10 kg railgun then the railgun is going to move in the opposite direction to the projectile at 1,000 km/h.
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>>23164518
>Mass Effect
>Fights typically happen from thousands of Kilometers away
>Close range is 10 Kilometers or less, referred to as knife fights
>The majority of battles battles end with one of the parties "jumping" away before anything happens

That last part is pretty important. Space battles would in reality be a pretty boring waiting game unless someone "jumped" right on top (within a few kilometers) of someone else, at which point shit would get intersting.
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>>23166183
Why would it spread?
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>>23166183
Why hit something with a few small projectiles that do relatively little damage when you can destroy something completely with a single well aimed shot?
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>>23166205
Real life is not a space opera, anon.
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>>23164518
It wouldnt. For space colonization to occur, there would have to be one world govt, or soon would be. It would require collaboration of most first world nations and the resources from many third world countries.

But, thats not gonna happen, see the thing is, its more than likely true that we are already colonizing another planet. The powers that be, would not tell the common people, because after they left, they dont want the threat of savages coming to ruin their utopia.

See Elysium. The rich and gifted go to their new paradise world, and leave the others to rot and fend for themselves on a dying planet.

tl;dr: its either Elysium, but without it being common knowledge, or
it is a UNSC one world govt.
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>>23166231
You could easily engineer that into the sabot if you wanted. I just assumed a giant spreading cloud of death would work a lot better than a single cannon shell, especially since "shields" do not and can not exist outside of heavy hull plating, which is easily negated with mere velocity
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>>23166209
There was a Russian short story I read back in college about that. The space battle was a giant standoff until someone jumped into the enemy fleet. They had their navigation right, they were going to come in directly behind the fleet and pound them but the enemy moved two kilometers behind their position and the ships jumped in only to suddenly collide with the enemy. Most of both fleets were lost in a half a second. The main fleet which was still a distance away raced in to gather survivors. It was all in Russian and called Aurora or something like that.
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>>23166207
What fucking ever sperglord, most of the engineering community refers to mach number as a solid measure of speed regardless.
Also, you dont have to have a railgun firing in the opposite fucking direction in order to mitigate the recoil, just have good dampeners with some RCS adjustment.
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>>23166273
The entire reason shotguns and sabots spread is because of air resistance. Fire it in a vacuum and there's no spread.

>>23166268
It should be!
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>>23166273
Imagine shooting a deer from 50+ feet away with no.10 birdshot. then think about using a slug. the slug makes more sense at longer distances.
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Quantum computers will rule everything and control impenetrable defenses systems at all levels of combat. Fighting will be utterly pointless. Disputes will be settled with 12 sided die. People will still grumble when they lose.
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>>23164585
This right here.

You guys should play mission critical / read ender's game.

Conventional humans won't cut it up there.
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>>23165189
they make much better bombers than they do fighters
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>>23166104
And rail guns would have trouble hitting something 10h away that's why they need to be combined
>>23165273
But now I'm thinking the initial rail gun projectile needs to be a launching platform for a dozen guided missiles to overload counter measures
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>>23165358
you forgot a couple things
such as how sensitive your detector is and how big a solid angle it can image at once and how fast it scans
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>>23166343
>rail guns would have trouble hitting something 10h away
what are predictive trajectories
overall they would be more effective, though the sad thing is that none of this would even be practical in the first place, since a wet water missile destroyer with anti-satellite missiles would be far more effective at taking out orbital threats in every way.
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>>23166375
What is someone might be shooting at us let's make small course adjustments every 10 minutes
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>>23166291
The "engineering community" understands basic physics, which is how I know that you've had exactly no contact with it.
I'd advise you to check yourself before you wreck yourself but it's too late.

But hey, being a moron doesn't have to define you, your probably also fat and have no friends.
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>>23166396
Thats why targeting supercomputers would be extremely important
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>>23166323
I'm not sure you understand how space has no resistance, and how a cloud of small projectiles moving at a retarded speed will whip right through armor leaving massive numbers of unpatchable holes
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>>23166435
Why would he being a mormon not have to define him?
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Lightning based weapons in space, how do they work?
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>>23166445
Targeting super computers can't predict the 60 random course changes my ship will make between the time you fire your rail gun and the slug flies harmlessly past me 3 miles away
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>>23165075

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuLO1A857yE

>sphinx gundam
>windmill gundam
>mermaid gundam

oh shit nigger you weren't kidding
>>
>>23166568

oops, was listening to hotline miami soundtrack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YKTfXYMqBU#t=393
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>>23164518
OP, it's very hard for me to imagine why people who can settle in high orbit would STAY in high orbit
it's just a matter of patience and huge-ass sails to let the solar wind push your hab to pretty much anywhere you fucking want to go in-system
once you've already lifted gigatons out of the gravity well (or more likely, captured a few nice asteroids)... the sky is no longer the limit

this being said, in the immediate future space weapons will be kinetic-kill vehicles and lasers, with engagements _largely_ decided by detection ranges - the other important factor being usable mass/energy, which accounts for fire, maneuver and lugging shielding around

battles between solar yachts would look very different from battles between Orion spaceships!
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>>23166475
That was implied that there would be no resistance. I was comparing the relative amount of damage that each projectile would do if hit with an easily visualized example. If there would be no spread why use large amounts of low mass projectiles that expend their energy extremely quickly on a target and could be stopped or reflected? Why not use a single large projectile that would be able to keep kinetic energy as it hits the target?
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>>23166104
The only retard here is you. Mach number is your speed/speed of sound in a given fluid medium. Vacuum is not a fluid medium, hence has no speed of sound, hence Mach number has a divide by zero error.

"Mach speed" is not some tacticool faggot way of saying the speed of sound, it's a very specific nondimensional quantity used in ballistics and aerospace engineering.
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>>23166291
Uh, no, most of the engineering community isn't completely retarded like you appear to be. You have at least three people explaining why you're wrong. Take your autism elsewhere.
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>>23165030
>i did. great books
>>
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>>23166475
Yfw heavy hull armor moving the same speed relatively whips through those BBs due to comparatively massive amounts of inertia
>>
>>23164518
If ship G was in orbit over earth and someone wanted to send ship X to take it down, ship X would have to go through a lot of fucking trouble to do that with any sort of advantage. Essentially, they'd have to rendezvous with ship G to come into range of attack. But they're not trying to rendezvous, they want to blow it up. Ship G would see them coming for miles and could easily get back into earth's atmosphere. by the time X gets close enough to take them down. But if for some reason G didn't book it until X got within rendezvous distance, X could send out fighters. Then you'd have G shooting canons at X's fighters, sort of like destroyers shooting at planes.
>>
>>23166742
you don't seem to into physics so good.
>>
>>23165172
AC (Gundam Wing) universe uses a different fairy dust

It's only referenced when they're talking about using rockets to get the gundams back in orbit IIRC. No idea how it's spelled but It's pronounced VER-nee-ay
>>
Just finished the thrid OVA of Gundam Unicorn. First Gundam series I've watched. Should I stop and watch Zeta first?
>>
>gundam
>gundam
>gundam
>gundam
>gundam
There was a series that did it better, continues to do it better and has much better combat.
>>
>>23164518
>So how would space combat in the near future occur?
I've actually started to think that if there were to be manned space combat in the near future then it would probably be very similar to a cavalry charge except in earth orbit. Opposing forces would attack each after each orbital period; the time for both sides in between that would be spent quantifying whether or not they should change direction. Then again they would be going so fast that I imagine any course change would have little effect on the outcome of the battle since they would be spending more time avoiding the growing cloud of scrap metal in between them. That would probably make up most of the battles because sending boarding parties onto a space station would have very little gain for either side unless they were entirely self-sufficient; the damage done wouldn't be worth the effort really.
>>
>>23166884
Vernier, which are actual real world things.
>>
>war starts first as ground engagements to stop "bad-guys"putting shit into bad guy's space apartments
>war would grow into overly complicated boarding actions of space apartments by way of using unarmed space buses/shuttles
>missiles from planet-side used to try to stop shuttles
>shuttles get armed to stop single expensive missiles
>"turrets" start getting made in space to counter missile-countering shuttles
>escort shuttles teamed up with missile-countering shuttles to now counter turrets and extra land missiles
>space apartment turns into space fort
>shuttles turned into cruisers with extra anti-missile-turret shit and extra seating for boarding dudes
>bad guys don't want that and make THEIR shuttles into smaller and more numerous "fighters" to counter and swarm anti-missile-turret-fortress-cruisers.
>after tons of money and only reactive instead of proactive design....
>...Air Force/Navy in space star wars style
>...because keeping shit looking cool will make pilots and generals happier instead of just Making space shuttles act like aircraft carriers for smaller drones or even disregarding 'bad guys' and going to other planets and arming THAT with land missiles and space turrets
> space V-22 and space F35 will go over-budget but will be in neat-o commercials for Space Force recruitment.
>Obama's head in a jar will run for office
>Hillary's digitized personality construct/Ipad app will run as vice-president

stupid future
>>
>>23167106
Robotics and gun dam exist side by side as the bastions of good ol mecha.

The stuff from the late 70s and early to mid 80s is legitimate art, it's not that fruity anime that it all developed into starting with the 90s.
>>
>>23167233
Holy fuck this authoritarian spell correct.
>>
>>23164657
read ender's game. I mean actually read the book. it describes a method of space combat that not only allows for three dimensional thinking but also points out the advantages of this concept over more linear modes of thought. there's a reason why it's on the officer's reading list for the U.S. armed forces.
>>
>>23167233
Macross existed in the early 80's
>>
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This series is probably the most convincing portrayal of space combat in a universe here AI and Robotics have NOT taken over and its just regular squishy humans (and other species) piloting.

Main points:

>engagement ranges large enough that it takes light-seconds, maybe light-hours to communicate

>Combatants moving an appreciable fraction of c

For both of the above reasons, lasers and light-based weapons are functionally useless because there's no way to tell if your opponents will be at the point you aimed at when your weapons fire arrives, and you sure as hell are moving so as to not be there when their fire arrives.

The only use for lasers and projectile weapons is point-defense.

Long-range torpedoes are thus preferred because they can out-accelerate the ship (due to the limits of biological bodies). But without advanced AI, they're too dumb to make adjustments and respond to enemy movements and countermeasures, so you must ALSO launched a manned, single-person pinnance to shepherd them torpedoes in to target.

So what it really comes down to is combatants at massive distances launching volleys of torpedoes, trying to get one through to the enemy by whatever tricks and strategies are necessary.
>>
>>23165101
>>23165142
>>23165180
>>23165246
>>23165302


http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php#nostealth
>>
>>23167722
Nyrath is hardly objective on this matter. I think he is mostly, and rightly so, tired at that common trope of super invisbility stealth fields, or even the usual layman's belief that "stealth" modern aircraft and ships are perfectly invisible to radar. But it seems quite possible to mitigate radar, visible and IR emission and reflectyion in some direction (while paying the price in other directions) without upsetting thermodynamics too much, as long as you're not riding a fiery column of fire at that moment.. Pic and pdf are highly related.

http://fas.org/spp/military/program/track/stealth.pdf
>>
Obama Cancelled the Space Program to free up more $ for welfare
>>
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>>
It would likely only involve ship to ship combat near a planet/moon, as open space would be futile. Saying that, its pretty much becomes a matter of who gets there to the planet fastest. and shoot first.
>>
>>23167476
>Needs torpedo pilots because tracking a large ship is too complicated without AI

Navy has had torpedoes with active and passive sonar sensors that are self guided and track a ship fine without AIs for decades now
That book sounds retarded
>>
>>23168041

Its not about tracking the ship, its about outwitting the ship.
>>
>>23168751

Specifically, since there are light-hours or light-minutes from the launching ship to the torpedoes after launch, remote control is unfeasible, so you can't adjust to new tactical or strategic needs on the fly.
>>
>>23166291
>Good dampeners
>Preventing conservation of momentum.
Yeah, you're a faggot.
>>
>>23168771
Adjust to tactics? It's a torpedo that can outrun your ship, either you shoot it out of the sky or you get blowed up
>>
>>23169089
You just have thrusters go off countering the force of the rail gun
>>
>>23169178
Or you could point the gun(s) opposite the center of thrust. Assuming you have fully throttleable engines (which is quite an engineering feat), you can make corrections as desired.

The entire game of space warfare could just as easily be about denying your enemies their energy. Specifically, force them to maneuver excessively and they'll be dead in the water for later shots. Make it into a game of cat & mouse, but have the mouse on the brink of dying from starvation.

Further, you don't actually need to kill them in space. You just need to get them out of the fight. Destroying them can be harmful to you--because the orbital debris could just as easily down your spacecraft as your weapons destroyed theirs. You'd be better off forcing the enemy to retreat. If you could maroon their spaceships in orbit, you then can decide what you want to do with them. If they're there, even, their options for fighting back are far more limited--since they'd need to spend a nearly equal amount of ammo to cancel out the energy of earlier projectiles.

So it'd be an energy war. He who has sufficient firepower & more delta-V (and other resources) will win. At least, until there's some infinite or near infinite source of delta-V that can be exploited.
>>
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>Daily reminder that Polyus existed.
>>
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What could have been.
>>
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>>23169745
>>
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>>23169756
>>
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>>23169767
>>
>>23165172
>UC
Minovsky Fusion Reactors
>AC (Gundam Wing)
Fusion Reactor
>CE (SEED)
Fission Reactor
>AW (Gundam X)
Fusion Reactor
>FC (G Gundam)
Fusion Reactor

They all pretty much have a nuclear reactor inside of them. In fact, EFF in 08th MS Team exploit this by sending a team of Ground GMs into Zeon bunkers on a suicide mission, where their nuclear reactors are detonated.
>>
>>23166268
I could see autonomous drones with high thrust to weight ratios playing an important part in future space conflicts. Although in all honesty they would be more like cruise missiles mines, they're dumped into an area en masse, lying in wait for years at a time, and when they detect a ship they speed towards it on a suicide mission, small enough to hopefully avoid detection and maneuverable enough to evade countermeasures.
>>
>>23169918
dd
>>
>>23169783

>Orbital battleship

What the fuck is this ugly thing?
>>
>>23170585
The greatest thing never built
>>
>>23170628
>never built

Good. Space ships shouldn't look like massive suppositories
>>
>>23166980
0079 movie trilogy -> Zeta tv series + 0083 (optional) -> skim over Double Zeta -> Char's Counterattack

that should be enough to full appreciate Unicorn I think
>>
>>23170725
Ha, but the shape has a use
>>
>>23170725
It's a giant american battleship propelled by nuclear bombs reflecting off a thousand ton pusher plate. It carries weapons with yields in the gigatons and can reach a maximum of .05c. How would you not want that to exist?
>>
>>23164518

Been on an Alien craze of late and after watching a play-through of Colonial Marines, yes, shitty game, but the combat between the Sulaco and the Sephora makes sense. Close call, beating the shit out of each other till one's power plant blows.
>>
>>23171531
>How would you not want that to exist?

Because it looks stupid.
>>
>>23166332

So...Newtypes?
>>
>>23167106

>Mankind advances with Overtechnology, i.e. tech marvels that not only give FTL, by tapping into ANOTHER FUCKING DIMENSION, but using hardware and physics at least 2 millennia more advanced than anything current.

tl;dr MAGIC, even more so that Gundam. Good series yes, but really a musical in space.
>>
>>23167291

So is Starship Troopers. Now where is my fucking power armor?!?
>>
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Space?

BL. BTFO after shit escalates in a hurry. Goons declared blobbing PvP shitlers. News at 11.
>>
>>23167920

Praise be to Musk for trying to privatize.

>yfw The Principality of Musk comes from Mars and her colonies to rid Earth of the Democratic Peoples Democracy of Nuffin only to find the world was destroyed by everyone becoming their own personal sjw for their cause and starving to death.
>>
If it wasn't 99.999% unmanned/AI, I'd be quite confused.

>Robotic industry in space is already quite doable, just not profitably so.
>No need for life support on fighters.
>>
>>23171928
Yeah, Gundam at least tried to be realistic in how it explained Minovsky particles making BVR combat a thing of the past, at least until newtypes got weaponized.
>>
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>>23164518
There's a fantastic book series called The Expanse that addresses like every single one of your questions, and it's relatively hard Sci-fi.

Some bits are:
>all the ship decks are vertical to the center axis so that "gravity" is created when the ship is in motion
>s'all about firing off a huge volley of torpedoes and hoping a few slink past point defense cannons
>combat can take weeks as ships try to out-run the torpedoes following them
>all the immense distances in space come into play
>none of that FTL shit exists, only a more advanced fusion drive that makes ships accellerate all fast-like
>everything is boxy, ugly, and designed for utility
>pilots and crew all sit in specially designed "crash couches" to minimizes injuries during maneuvers and get injected with a drug cocktail that keeps them conscious during high-g acceleration


Pic related is the first book. Read it. It's fucking awesome.
>>
>>23172247

The Minovski Reactor is based on the Muon Reaction theory they were testing back in '55. It's based on the theory the experiments actually WORKED. They didn't and the neutron could not be captured.
>>
>>23172342
it should be called the Morita drive
muon-catalyzed fusion is real but hella expensive and very inefficient
muons are not a true catalyst, they get stuck to alpha particles and helions and removed from the game after just a few interactions or they just decay - think of it like a variant of fission with the muons taking the place of neutrons (in a fission reaction you lose neutrons into empty space, or simply because they get stuck into atoms that can't split further
so there is a need for either a cheaper muon source (fat chance) or a muon catalysis catalyst of some sort that would un-stick the muons (even fatter chance) or a way to remove alpha particles and helions from the reaction volume before they can eat muons (hard engineering problem, but probably where the progress will come from if it ever comes)
>>
Congrats! You are now expert in space warfare; anything to do with space.

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewarintro.php
>>
I'm of the impression people are thinking far too high tech when apply real-world concepts to Sub-Luminal Ship to Ship Combat.

This shit where people would be hundreds of Km away has to go.

The computative power required to have accurate fire applied onto a target would be obscene.

Where as, you could just get fucking closer, and hope to hell the dance of death between damage control, Active & Passive defenses & Offensive armament insure your win against a foe.


Fuck that Galactic Heroes hurr trillions of KM away from each other combat scenario shit.
>>
>>23174726
>What is a computer?
>>
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>>23174726
A lot of the Galactic Heroes stuff looks close together though
>>
>>23164518
Well, as far as design goes, I'd say it would probably look pretty Babylon-5/Nexus:Jupiter Incident-y.
Both having done SOME research on how a vessel would have to look in order to function (thrusters in all directions, acceleration and deceleration only within the confines of Newtonian physics, etc.).

>pic related
>StarFury, a fighter designed with NASA's help.
>probably the most flight-capable space fighter ever designed.
>>
>>23175325
I need more images like this
>>
>>23167106
>macross
>being better than zeta gundam // 08th MS team ever

uhhh........
>>
>>23169143
>Not the book anon.

It's not quite that easy in empty space.

Just hit the pedal at the right moment and the torpedo won't have enough thrust and time to correct it's trajectory towards you.
You must remember that is it's travelling faster than your ship towards your current location it means it must take quite lengthy urns to adjust its trajectory.
A clever movement and it will miss, never to return again as it would have to carry too much fuel to stop and regain its speed to that dangerous point again in the opposite direction.
>>
>>23175792
Have you ever heard of casaba-howitzers directed energy warheads? Nuclear pumped laser warheads? You don't have to connect nor match speed with your target.

>>23174726
Calculating orbital mechanics is trivial. it can be done with a slide rule and a functional brain. The question is how up to date your information on the ennemy postiion and acceleration is, how much it can maneuver in the meantime, and if you can saturate said volume of space with enough laser, smart and dumb ammunitions to have a good chance to score a hit.
>>
>>23175895
>total "delta-vee"
>units in km/s

Who ever made that had no fucking understanding of what the wikipedia articles and youtube videos showed him.
>>
>>23175920
km/s is the unit of measurement of delta-v.
Feel free to privide me a link that says otherwise.
>>
>>23164518
It would probably be very long range combat due to slow movement and no laser technology. Therefore electronic warfare and smart weapons (think of modern jet combat) would be paramount. Fighters, if they were even used at all, would certainly behave like BSG or B5 ships do.

My guess is it would basically be ships shooting shitloads of missiles/torpedoes at each other to destroy things like engines to cripple enemy vulnerability.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that missiles and even bullets could theoretically have infinite range since nothing in space can slow them down. Missiles could have an extremely long range since they only need to course correct instead of keep jetting to keep up speed, and in fact this would make missiles extremely fast if they still did.

As far as early combat goes, I bet one minigun for each ship would suffice. Bullets would be extremely dangerous in space.
>>
Would barrels overheat in space? I know that space is very cold but I've read that things like computers or barrels would still overheat (if not faster) since there's nothing out there for heat to be dissipated into.
>>
>>23176136
Absolutely. heat management is the biggest issue of space warfare. You need high efficiency weapons (there was that lab that went under the radar after claiming solid state laser efficiency of 80% iirc (or was it 60%? anyway it was big) back in 2008, i bet they have awesome stuff by now), or weapons that don't transfer heat to your carrier (missiles), and a big ship that can sink a lot of heat before melting or having to deploy radiators.
>>
>>23176184
http://phys.org/news/2012-03-efficiency.html
you could pump a (weapon) laser with those LEDs
>>
>>23165142
No, faggot. There's nothing to hide behind in space, and your spacecraft WILL be warmer than its background. Also, active thrusters and radio transmissions are comically easy to pick up in space, if you have a vague idea of where to look.
>>
>>23165276
You mean the really big, hot, vulnerable, un-stealthy radiators?
>>
>>23176325
Thanks for the link. Physics definitely have a way to fuck with common sense. Now idea of it works when you stack them to have a functional laser, but i bet some people are working very very hard on it.
>>
>>23176371

I suggest you to give a looks at the pdf. As you said, problem is knowing were to look. Also, we have, for once, an almost civil and pleasant discussion, could you please refrain on the insults?.

>>23167894
>>
>>23166183
Quite possibly, but it would probably be lower-velocity than a solid penetrator.

In terms of projectiles, the best would probably be a bit of both worlds - A single, solid projectile that fragments or spreads a bunch of solid, high-density submunitions everywhere just before impact
>>
>>23176449
>>
>>23166270
>implying
SpaceX is developing a methane-fueled rocket more powerful than the Saturn V, all by themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Colonial_Transporter#Super-heavy_lift_launch_vehicle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_(rocket_engine)
>>
>>23171965
kek
>>23175920
Lrn2space, please.
Delta v is measured in m/s or km/s.
>>
>>23176371
you can make one side of your spacecraft exactly as cold as the background and (try to) keep that side pointed at the enemy, though
>>
>>23176486
frag grenades... IN SPAAAAACE
>>
>>23165913
underrated post
>>
>>23176419
Almost all of that is related to RADAR stealth, not thermal stealth.
>>
>>23167291
don't listen to this fuck. Book was horrible and doesn't go into space combat in much detail. Only gay 0 G arena laser tag. The book is aimed towards middleschoolers. So if your in highschool, this book will still be lame to you.
>>
>>23171788
>because you are stupid
thats the correct answer
>>
>>23171965

>2014
>still crying about the big bad CFC

Are you 12?
>>
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>>23179121

>Implying not Skirmish Commander for the evil empire
>>
>>23179152

lol, didn't see your trip. Was in the Papusa cawk fleet while browsing so not paying attention.
>>
>>23171965

>Fapswarm

I see you.
>>
>>23172277
can confirm, also the lost fleet is a decent series, a great military scifi story but it has some kind of shitty sideplots
>>
>>23166581
>Neo-Holland is windmills

ok this show is fucking brilliant
>>
>>23171965
Goonturds lost a titan because the pilot is a retard and doesnt understand how bonuses work. Lol
>>
>>23172277

Its a good series, and the characters work really well. I liked the format of switching perspectives every chapter.

I honestly found the few bits of space combat a little lacklustre. I do like the virus and how that's handled.

The praxis series, the book in
>>23167476

Is my favorite for pure space combat. You've got large fleets with lots of large ships powered by antimatter. They accelerate up to combat speed over the course of weeks or months, and it actually brings a bit more tactical depth to the combat.

One of the coolest things was how antimatter torpedoes could also be used to screen movement as their detonations create interference with sensors, so some battles turn on predicting what your enemy will do behind the screen whilst doing something that they wouldn't expect at the same time.

And it has a good variety of aliens which factors into strategic decisions (i.e. one race has fragile bones and cannot accelerate as harshly).
>>
>>23176519

SpaceX will either save the world or rule it. Maybe both.

May Emperor Musk rule for a thousand millenia.
>>
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Frak em
>>
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The Halo books had some incredible space battle stuff going on in them. The short story "The Impossible Life and the Possible Death of Preston J. Cole" had some of the best of it, I think.

>tfw no Halo game dedicated to lore-accurate space combat
>>
>>23165346
>>23165336
>>23165676
>>23164935
>>23164684
Just to add, KSP's orbital mechanic system is very basic and it is being kept basic for two reasons.

First, SOI changes are gradual in real life and you inevitably end up having too many ships in the background to model realistic orbits.
Second, the data required to store and process orbital info ends up being much lighter bu eschewing realistic gravity variance and boundary-based spheres of influences.

That said, KSP still teaches you a whole lot of interesting things and if you take up mods like NEAR/FAR and some minor fixes it becomes as close to realistic without going full autismo as possible.
>>
Just think about it. Everytime a missile / projectile weapon is fired in space, it won't stop unless it is affected by a planet / star's gravity enough to alter its course.

There could be space missiles fired millions, billions of years ago headed towards us right now and we have absolutely no fucking idea. Imagine you're just sitting on some moon somewhere and boom, a missile fired by some extinct alien civilization in a forgotten war millions of years ago impacts.

I would imagine this kind of thing would be especially problematic if the space combat was near an inhabited planet.
>>
>>23185825
AND THAT IS WHY SIR ISAAC NEWTON IS THE DEADLIEST SON OF A BITCH IN SPACE!
>>
>>23185678
The books were indeed good.

Halo Reach had that pretty awesome space dogfight level which was the highlight of the game in my opinion, shame it was so short.
>>
>>23182752
ohh best part, that was laz's erebus that died
>>
>>23164684
Play orbiter 2010 and learn why its hard to sync with objects when you're out of plane with them.
>>
>>23165059
>polar orbits being exceptionally predictable

Nigga, all orbits are predictable...even more radical ones like molniya orbits, etc.
>>
railgun nuclear grapshots with NERVA boosters traveling 1 lightyear a second. pew pew pew bloom bloom bloom
>>
in space wars there will be no fighter aircraft. only enrmous line battleships with enormous holds filled with massive amoutns of ammo and bristeling with guns. multiple layers of sacrificial armor that repositions itself. these modular vessels will be capable of breaking apart into smaller chunks when the structure is compromised for a last ditch battle for survival.
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