Why don't special forces units use .22 pistols with over-sized suppressors for maximum splinter cell effect?
They're near dead silent.
They do for special operations. They use the integrally suppressed ruger mk. II's.
They also used the smith and wesson model 39 (mark. Something) hush puppy that was a suppressed 9mm with a slide that didn't cycle and make noise.
That's pretty cool, man.
What other ultra-silent firearms exist?
The quietest firearm ever made, the Russian PSS, uses special ammo to get the effect, makes almost no firing noise.
The sound you hear when it fires is just the action of the pistol.
"The Model 39 was used by Naval Special Warfare units during the Vietnam War. The Model 39 was issued to officers-in-charge (OICs) of MST-2 detachments as their sidearm. SEAL Teams used either the Model 39 without modification or a modified version, the Mk 22 Mod 0, which was called the "hush puppy". The modified pistol had a suppressor with a slide lock (which kept the slide from moving backwards upon firing, thereby decreasing produced noise) The Mk 22 Mod 0 also had raised iron sights, to provide easier sighting over a bulky suppressor. The gun's purpose was to eliminate sentry dogs or guards without alarming the main target."
They use to use them back in the day. I guess modern suppressors function well enough. And popping guard dogs isn't as necessary.
A specially modified Beretta M92 with among other things, a slide lock.
It was called the KAC XM9.
No, it is nowhere near silent. It's a fun squirt gun because it doesn't hardly recoil even on mag dumps, but it's not useful unless there's a few other guys in the stack behind you that can start hosing a particular dude until he drops.
4.6mm is all about velocity, and anything breaking the sound barrier is making a lot of noise. Hence everyone's interest in things like .300 blackout and 9x39 which are often loaded to subsonic velocities but remain very effective because they're throwing a lot of weight - 200+gr bullets to the 4.6mm's 30-40 gr projectiles.
MP7's are fun as hell to shoot, it'd be the perfect giggleswitch gun to hand to a girlfriend for her first time shooting a run-fast gun, but there's a big reason why they're not more prevalent in SOF circles and also why they've never, ever been considered for adoption by LE agencies here in the states - it's a defensive weapon that works sort-of OK in symmetrical warfare scenarios where having unicorn ammo that kind of works against body armor is worth the logistical headache for your rear-echelon troops for the space saved by an MP7 vs a shorty version of your country's 5.56 service rifle.
Also, and the biggest reason it'll never be in LE in America, is that it looks REAL bad when you have to shoot a guy 8-15+ times to reliably incapacitate him instead of 1-3 times with a shorty 5.56 rifle.
A while back I watched a video on Youtube where they were demonstrating some new subsonic ammo. They demonstrated normal subsonic ammo being shot through a suppressed weapon and of course it made the noise you expect. They swapped in a mag of the new subsonic ammo on the same weapon and suppressor and the things sounded almost exactly like just slapping your index finger of one hand onto your other palm.
Pretty impressive, and that's civilian stuff. I'm sure DARPA's had some really quite suppressors and ammo loads for a while now.
Yes and no. The MP5SD is actually designed to bleed off the velocity from NATO 9mm loads like the M882 ball ammo. So if you load subsonic ammo into an MP5SD, it'll reduce velocity from that needlessly. Generally speaking, non-subsonic 147gr loads work best for MP5SD work.
Now, if you're running a typical modern 9mm can on a 3-lugged MP5K or MP5N, it does not have the barrel ports that reduce velocity inside the suppressor, so you'll want to run the full-power subsonic rounds for best effect, which is typically a subsonic 147gr load.
Mac 10s would have been great if they had marketed the suppressor with it as a unit rather an accessory.
The PSS is the quietest *Soviet* firearm ever made, but not the quietest firearm ever made.
The DeLisle carbine is generally regarded as the quietest, specifically because it was a bolt-action rifle with a huge integral suppressor and chambered in the already-subsonic .45 ACP.
I fired a Valkyrie Arms reproduction of the DeLisle and the only thing you hear is the click of the Enfield-style striker, and the sound of the that fat .45 bullet hitting the target.
If they weren't so goddamn expensive I'd consider buying one. As it is, it's easier to buy an R700 AAC or the H&R Handi-Rifle in .300 blackout and use subsonic ammo from that.
They're not very specific. The .300 BLK rifle is almost certainly firing subsonic.
The major advantage of the .300 BLK rifle over the MP5SD is that you can swap a subsonic mag for one loaded with supersonic and get armor penetration.
Either way when you reach the point of making the gunshot quieter than the action of the weapon it's an accomplishment.
Oh and picture of a fully kitted out Mk.22 "Hush puppy".
Not really - the original Sionics suppressor that was sold with early MAC-10's and M11/9's wasn't all that effective. It'd take subsonic ammo below the threshold of hearing damage when outside, but it was far from quiet. Plus they had a knack for getting loose after firing even one magazine on full auto because of how coarse the barrel threading is. Generally you'll fire a suppressed MAC-10 or M11/9 from the hip while holding the suppressor in place with one hand to prevent it from working its way loose.
Now, there's ways to install an AK-esque detent system and other guys still who weld on an adapter to replace the coarse threads with more common threading for modern suppressors, but none of that was available when the MAC-10 was being marketed toward civilian LE and military outfits.
I'll say this though - a MAC-10 in .45 ACP is about as tactically useless as a full auto weapon could get. It's virtually impossible for anyone to control it in a meaningful way, but if I had a sneaky operation where I needed to ventilate an elevator full of surprised Colonels and Generals, the MAC-10 in .45 ACP would do wonderfully. They cycle around 1200rpm with most .45 ACP ammo, which means a 30 round mag lasts about 1.5 seconds. If you do a magdump with one, almost anyone will have to take at least one or two steps back from the recoil even when holding it at the hip.
With practice and while using the stock, you can eventually lean into it enough to kind of stay in one place.
Yeah, I didn't elaborate very well. Like I said >>22434807 the advantage is the ability to get a lot more performance from a supersonic rifle round than a supersonic pistol round.
Similar throw weight and similar velocities, but radically different ballistics as the 200+gr .30 cal rifle rounds have fantastically lower drag coefficients and are also much easier to stabilize and will retain stability much further. This means their trajectories are actually quite different, as the length of a 200+gr boat-tailed .30 cal rifle projectile actually gives it some lift. Vs a .45 ACP bullet which is basically the closest modern equivalent to a musket ball that's commonly available.
I wouldn't call it an accomplishment, simply an effective pairing of a cartridge and a good suppressor.
You can load .22LR CB caps into an old gallery rifle with a 22-24in barrel and enjoy shooting that's quieter than most air rifles, but it's just about as effective as an air rifle because of the low velocity and low projectile mass.
Getting the .408 Chey-tac and .50 BMG in rifle use below the threshold of hearing damage while fitted to rifles and firing full-house 3000+fps ammo, now that's some engineering. Particularly for the suppressor profile involved in both. Suppressors are wonderful to have in the field, but the larger it is, the more of a liability and pain in the ass it becomes. So making an effective suppressor that vastly reduces signature but maintains a small size profile is a lot more useful in most military applications than a larger suppressor that makes a subsonic pistol round virtually silent.
>based De Lisle carbine
Why are WWII Brit weapons all so damn pretty? I even like the sten, with it's devil may care, might-spontaneously-jam-and-get-you-killed charm.
>Yeah, an integral suppressor will get better results.
Not necessarily - the MP5SD's integral can will make supersonic ammo subsonic, thus making it quieter than an MP5N with a similar suppressor installed firing the same supersonic ammo.
But an MP5N with a more modern, more effective suppressor that's FA rated that's firing 147gr subsonic loads will typically be even quieter than an MP5SD while also being just as effective.
In short, the SD's quieter with regular ammo, but newer suppressors are so much better than the SD's can that an MP5 with one of those newer suppressors and subsonic ammo will typically be quieter than an SD firing the same ammo.
The secret to keeping a STEN running - and this is going to sound crazy - is axle grease.
Newer lithium based axle bearing grease from auto parts stores is just the magic cure-all for most somewhat crude open bolt SMG's in my experience. My transferable MAC-10 runs beautifully with a light coat of oil in the .45 ACP upper, but the 9mm upper's always had problems cycling reliably even with hot ammo. A thin coat of axle grease on all four sides of that huge ass square bolt just does the trick.
Similarly, there's more than a few owners of STEN's and STEN-lings (a registered STEN tube built up in Sterling SMG configuration) that have discovered the same trick and we share a laugh about it at MG shoots.
Yeah, I'm primarily referring to the rather infamous Mk IIs which were plagued by reliability issues. I think a few of the 6 ABD guys at Pegasus Bridge had theirs jam or misfire on their first shots, though it's been a while since I read that book so I could be talking out my ass.
I dunno about that. The DeLisle releases gas every shot, while the ammo in the PSS doesn't. The PSS certainly isn't the most silent gun or even the most silent soviet gun, because it's a repeater and the action makes noise. Most silent would have to go to the MSP or S4M derringer-style pistols, because gas does not escape the cartridge and couldn't possibly make noise.
At this level of loudness I don't believe there is a noticeable difference.
There's a ton of pictures of IDF guys with suppressed, scoped 10/22s. For taking out light-bulbs, guard dogs, but also "ringleaders" when street protests turn ugly.
They are supposed to shoot the target in the leg to disable them, but not kill them. Of course there is still the occasional casualty. Pic related, a typical target for a couple .22 shots in the leg.
Is that what Haley is using in this pic?
I partially agree with you. It isn't anywhere near silent even with the "super can" it comes with. However I hate when people say the ballistics of it are shit. Center mass a burst of 4-10 rounds drops people consistently. The whole body armor thing is also great, but it is just fine for asymmetrical warfare.
Gun was too big and heavy for weak navy seal operators