What is the best way to trap your opponents into dealing your winning tile?
Come here and find out.
In anime format there's Legendary Gambler Tetsuya and a couple episodes of Mudazumo Naki Kaikaku.
In manga format there's Naki no Ryuu, Mukoubuchi, Tetsunaki no Kirinji and Tohai (all fresh off the presses), as well as some chapters of Tetsuya.
I assume Shinohayu is included in "all the Sakis" you watched.
>What is the best way to trap your opponents into dealing your winning tile?
Boobies. Other players love the boobies.
People like you are the reason god left us
From spectator view, I was calling him retarded when he refused to get into tenpai with his 3 dora hand, but because of his "bad" decisions, he got a baiman, so I guess I didn't know what I was talking about.
>stuck with haku tile I don't want to discard since it's dangerous
>fuck it, I'll riichi and I bet someone will discard it because it looks like a super safe tile
>it works on the first round
nice desu ne
It doesn't matter if you finish 3 times with a 1000 hand if some guy gets a mangan while you're dealer. You're just wasting your hand, unless you have some dora or the yakuhai is a 2x one.
this is objectively the wrong approach. dicking around trying to get some huge value hand always fails unless either:
a) you were dealt almost all of the hand to begin with, in which case go ahead and try to complete it
b) you're an anime character with plot armor
if you start with a hand that isn't already almost a good hand, then just finish fast as possible
There is a reason why 90% of hands completed in professional matches are yakuhai, tan'yao and pinfu.
More complex hands almost never manage to be completed, and going for them will just limit your speed and your ability to discard safely.
Mmm, I agree.
"As we saw in the previous chapter, we often face a tradeoff between speed (tile efficiency) and hand value. In modern Riichi Mahjong, the value of pursuing expensive yaku is much diminished because of red fives. For example,
ryanpeiko is a beautiful three-fan yaku, but it is extremely difficult to make this yaku. We can achieve the same hand value more easily with
riichi + dora + one red five. We thus tend to
think of expensive yaku as something that emerges in a hand (almost) by chance, not something we actively pursue. Given that we can get high scores also from ippatsu, ura dora, and tsumo, getting the hand ready for
riichi is generally more important than pursuing expensive yaku."
From that richii book one of the anons linked in an earlier topic.
Missing half of the first hand netted me houtei Raoyui mangan which I sat on for 8 hands. This game just doesn't make sense sometimes. I swear I turned the sfx back on to warn me when the game started though. Weird.
Are you talking about this one, anon?
I knew I'd be second when I busted him out, but I also had class in 20 minutes so I just accepted my position to end the game in a quick fashion.
Also just got out of class so I'm sorry for the late response.
From (almost) zero to hero.
You can teach chinese style mahjong in about five minutes, so I keep the cards around me, because some people like learning new games.
Japanese/riichi mahjong is probably the sort of mahjong that takes the longest just to learn how to play. And that does not make it more strategic... fucking red fives.
I've never understood these 'chinese mahjong takes more skill' arguments.
Don't you always pay if someone wins a hand? I'm not a chinese mahjong player, but the way I see, there would be far fewer reasons to defend in that case. You'd be better off just rushing to win the hand. There's also no furiten, so you couldn't even really defend if you wanted to.
As >>14621513 noted, you tend to pay less. The biggest thing about cantonese mahjong being potentially more defensive is that there aren't a lot of rules for getting yaku. Thus hands are either incredibly easy to read, or very low valued. No riichi, dora, no ura dora, and no open tanyao means that there's no such thing as "quick" hands, and that getting value is more difficult whilst also keeping your hand hidden.
Read some hands for me then. You might be able to pick out yaku, but judging what tiles are safe or dangerous without furiten is difficult and very inconsistent. Maybe this is fine for very skilled players (I doubt it), but furiten is the majority of beginner and intermediate defense.
>You always pay, but you pay half the amount that the person who actually discarded into the ron does.
That still means you have less of an incentive to defend and more to just ignore the other players and finish your hand before they do.
Old Hong Kong (and the various PRC/official tournament versions) is more modular than Japanese mahjong.
Instead of finding one yaku to make a hand, you usually have to combine multiple lesser-valued combinations. With this modularity, there are more combinations available.
Of course, the highest-valued hands still resemble your yakuman.
Why would he waste time with you losers?
>got hit by a dealer haneman in E1
>still won the game in S2
Feels good man.
Here's a question for you. If you were a 2-dan like B-san here (who also happens to have R1688), what tile would you think to absolutely NOT discard?
Hint: He got the answer wrong
That sounds like it could've been an interesting game.
do hans stack over yakuman hand up to a double yakuman? or does the scoring stop with your yaku in this cases?
I mean, suppose the following case: you get a daisangen and you riichi then tsumo, similar to the case of this guy
Does it score higher than just doing ron on a daisangen without riichi?
what do you like about mahjong that makes you play it?
For me, I consider it to be the perfect mixture of luck and strategy/knowledge, in which improvement and constant playing pays off but with an added thrill that makes it addicting
Is there a character who could possibly even get a direct hit on Akagi Shigeru in mahjong? Let alone defeat him. I'm not just talking about 13 year old Akagi, I'm not talking about Akagi in 1 shanten with a iipeikou and ittsu, hell I'm not even talking about Akagi in tenpai for a open riichi tanyao pinfu ryanpeikou ittsu chinitsu 10 dora kazoe yakuman (with possible 5 ura-dora and menzen tsumo), equipped with his sheer intuition, perfect tile efficiency, with control of the dealer seat for 7 honba, with the luck of the devil implanted in him so he can win on jigokumachi and can perform ronagari at any time while being an expert in damaten and atamahane.
21+14+10+16 = 61戦
1st at one, busted at the next. My deal in rate is 1% lower (.180) but when I do it's dealer mangan or something. And prob a third of those were riichi.
My defense is really weak, but I'm not sure how to improve.
Aka only counts once, but I got you covered.
>Also, there are many discard reading books about ura suji, aida yon ken, matagi suji on the market. You might be wondering, why hasn't there been any talk about discard reading.
>The reason is because according to game record statistics from 東風莊's super high level tables, this so called discard reading, do not affect the risk of related tiles. So when you're in betaori, it's better to ignore these "skills".
Well shit. And here I was planning to read those things.
Anyway, thanks for this.
>Get in tenpai with a 7-dora hand, a 4-dora hand, a 2-dora hand and a 4-dora hand in the same game
>Win none of them
Why do the mahjong gods like to torture me?
Hands weren't forming and people all around the table were already in tenpai from what I can feel. So this is what being cat is like. That last round was just pathetic.
>toi toi while holding a complete 678 shuntsu
What level of stupid are you?
Ron as dealer pays time and a half
Tsumo as dealer pays time and a half, everyone pays equally
Ron as non-dealer pays normally
Tsumo as non-dealer pays normally but the dealer pays 1/2 of the amount while everyone else pays 1/4
7 Pin for Chi Toi. 1 Sou and 9 Pin are easier to snipe when the dealer is going for kuitan, especially when you can see 3 of both 2 Sou and 8 Pin.
Ended in ryuukyoku[\spoiler]
I think the only case where the 8p is useless but the 1s is useful is if I draw a 4s and riichi shanpon on 1p 5s.
I maybe forgot to say I was playing in kuitan nashi, but this analysis about 2s & 8p remains relevant, I didn't think about it.
I agree, that should be like the default image or something.
Can't believe I had the audacity to richii this
Does anyone knows an app to play with
>That final round
I bet the fucker to the left thought he had it.
No you were right. It was a baiman due to ura-dora.
They're Japanese lang. classmates, they're coming over to watch batsu game 2016.
They're also interested on learning how to play Mahjong, so...
How the hell are you supposed to install Janryumon on Windows 8? I manage to get the launcher to start but when I click game download, it just shows a pop-up that says 'it can't install the game'.
I got you covered. It just came up on spectator mode.
>Dealt into a kokushi like a retard
>Still didn't end fourth
Good game guys
I don't even care, I'm still excited about getting my first Yakuman
Congratulations. I was too busy feeling good about the baiman to notice to obvious kokushi wait.
It does prove my theory that I'll always draw the winning tile of whoever calls riichi right after they do it.
It was a pretty long game and Saki played really well the entire time. I also think I played into Haneman or Baiman of his at one point.
Here's the game if you want to see
red fives eliminate 90% of the skill factor in mahjong. normal dora and ura dora are fine though.
offensively they can used in almost any hand shape, they bump hands up in rank that they shouldn't be for no reason other than you happened to draw one and they make reaching mangan/haneman piss easy. they also make kuitan more impactful because your 1000 point hand will infrequently become 7700/mangan for the sole reason that you got lucky and drew 3 red dora.
defensively it creates a hole in risk assessment where the correct move is to betaori against 90% of riichis, because even if can see all 4 of the normal dora, if you can see 0 red dora it's still too dangerous to play aggressive because that shitty riichi pinfu could easily be riichi pinfu dora dora. a 2000/3900 point ron gets turned into a 7700 hand because luck
i'm not saying i don't see the appeal of them because big hands are fun to see and that's what all the mahjong parlors use but the more luck factors you introduce the less skill plays a part in winning
>offensively they can used in almost any hand shape, they bump hands up in rank that they shouldn't be for no reason other than you happened to draw one and they make reaching mangan/haneman piss easy
If you play with good players both are still pretty rare.
>they also make kuitan more impactful because your 1000 point hand will infrequently become 7700/mangan for the sole reason that you got lucky and drew 3 red dora.
Nothing wrong with that imo. Open hands are already worse than closed hands most of the time even with red 5s and speed factored in.
>defensively it creates a hole in risk assessment where the correct move is to betaori against 90% of riichis, because even if can see all 4 of the normal dora, if you can see 0 red dora it's still too dangerous to play aggressive because that shitty riichi pinfu could easily be riichi pinfu dora dora. a 2000/3900 point ron gets turned into a 7700 hand because luck
And without red 5s it could be a riichi pinfu tanyao with 2 ura-dora. I get your point that it makes playing offensively against riichi more worthwile, but your argumentation is arbitrary. With the same argument you could also advocate banning ura-dora.
Making the value of hands more difficult to estimate does by itself not reduce the skill factor, it just shifts the necessary skills towards calculating with chances.
TV shows ask the players to place their drawn tile on top of their hand so viewers can easily see it. This pisses a lot of the pros off since the tiles can randomly spin and reveal what they just drew due to magnets
Yeah that too, in my defense I was playing slightly worse than usual due to excitement but my defense does need some serious work. If you have any more apecific critiques of how I play or noticed any bad habits I'm all ears.
Prize for winning one small tournament. Haven't had the occasion to use them in 11 months ;_;
>If you play with good players both are still pretty rare.
only because good players in tokujou and above go for 3900/7700 kuitan -because- they get red fives, and even there it isn't what i would call uncommon
>With the same argument you could also advocate banning ura-dora.
you can't compare ura-dora and red fives. ura-dora is a luck factor, yes, but it's also an integral part of what makes riichi valuable. ura-dora doesn't make kuitan more impactful because it doesn't apply to it. you have to put yourself into a risky situation to gain its benefits and even then you may not get any ura-dora at all.
>Making the value of hands more difficult to estimate does by itself not reduce the skill factor, it just shifts the necessary skills towards calculating with chances.
if it removes or significantly diminishes a skill that can be applied in most situations then yes, it definitely reduces the skill factor. being able to estimate your opponent's hand value is very valuable, try playing ari nashi or nashi nashi sometime and maybe you'll notice how big of a difference it makes.
The reason Japanese mahjong is superior to gaijin mahjong in the first place is because of the emphasis on closed hands. Kuitan and red 5 apologists should go back to hong kong 'jong.
>you can't compare ura-dora and red fives. ura-dora is a luck factor, yes, but it's also an integral part of what makes riichi valuable.
If you think ura-dora is necessary to make riichi valuable, why not just give riichi another advantage instead of ura-dora, that is less luck-based, like removing the 1k riichi desposit rule, or make anyone pay an additional 1k in case of tsumo, or one player 3k in case of ron. There is no reason that the advantage that riichi gets needs to be as luck based as ura-dora, so if you argue against red 5s you should also argue against ura-dora.
>if it removes or significantly diminishes a skill that can be applied in most situations then yes...
>being able to estimate your opponent's hand value is very valuable
You can't estimate the value of a riichi hand. It could be anything from riichi + nothing up to sanshoku pinfu with 2 ura-dora or some shit with or without red 5s. The only thing it really changes is the average value of a hand. Sure the variance will go up slightly as well because of that, but that hardly matters, because it is already too high from the beginning. Sure you can make SOME assumptions based on discards but that is very unreliable anyway.
Why do you think most players in tokujo (and probably also Houou) play ari red if takes less skill?
What can I say? I play mahjong like I have sex, quick, dirty and successful.
Mahjong is like sex for me as well.
I never score.
Never give up.
1p and 7p are both safe against toimen and and 1p was discarded by shimocha. All the other tiles are pretty risky. 4p is really risky in itself, but it'd probably be the safest tile.
Really hard decision, his entire hand was a ultra dangerous.
Think about it this way.
You can see three of the 4m but only two 1m, one 2m and one 3m.
The chances of someone using the 2 and 3m are very high, and the chances of them having a 4m or 1m as well are rather low, so it means that a 14m wait is pretty likely. Of course, I can say this only because I already know the answer.
So the answer was that 1m WAS the wait? Damn, this is why I never do well.
But looking at what tiles this guy has now and his discards, he shouldn't have had that many terminals to begin with. Why didn't he just try for a tanyao in the first place?
Three 5s are discarded. So, you have good degree of kabe here. Then the 1s half-suji to both players adds a bit of help. If 4s passes, then you have paved some way for the 7s later on.
Pinzu are currently out of the question.
He riichied a turn late, would be tanyao as well on 4m.
Good point. The question is would you take half-suji + 1-chance kabe for both players, or suji for one player + half-suji for the other.
The 7s has a slightly elevated chance of 68s trap due to dora, but not too bad.
> they prevent me from striking yakumans left and right
4th place, please.
Answer A. Half-suji + 1-chance kabe for both players.
At least, you're taking them on both early on. The second answer can be taken care of later, while dishing that question off to the other players. Let them take the risk confirming those more dangerous tiles.
As for the current hand. You have the lead. Don't fuck up. Suji alone is a nice defense strategy. However, time and time again, suji alone is often not good enough. Tenpai is no longer necessary anyways.
Looking at the replay, this player did fuck up.
I would still take 4p over 4s. The idea is that suji for one player (especially a 1-7 suji) is a much better chance that you are safe from one of the riichis, and you only have to worry about dealing into the other one.
On the other hand, a one-chance kabe is much less secure in the later phases of a round and against two players.
Both choices are very close and valid I think, but the tiebreakers for me are that 1) you have two 5p in your hand, slightly enhancing the safety of 4p and 2) having an additional 4p to discard is better than a 7s suji followup discard near the dora.
4s. 1s is safe against both, and 47s is one chance. Next would be 7s - all four 9s are dead so it's not penchan, there are three visible so it's not shanpon, and if it were kanchan then toimen wouldn't have tsumogiri'd 5s and shimocha wouldn't chase riichi with it.
I'm glad that ippatsu saved my ass otherwise I would have had to wait on the Dora
>tenhou fucks up and discards the rightmost tile
>dipshit ragequits because he slipped under 15k
>turns into a winning tile factory
So I ron'd that fucker, and took his tenbou
Funny thing is, I'm sure I would have dealt into it if he didn't riichi it there. I knew his discards looked funny from the 5th turn, but I certainly wasn't ready for it his hand to be completed that fast.
I'm not gonna be like >>14637411 and deal into an obvious Kokushi. I know Gogo's true power.
Not a mahjong related song, but I feel some energies out of this song:
There isn't much manliness in already getting your winning tile before open riichi'ing the largest wait in the game. If he were being a man, he'd have riichi'd before getting his winning tile, or he's have stuck with a single tile wait.
If I get too excited when playing something, I'll start making stupid mistakes, so I listen to iyashikei soundtracks instead.
>going for kokushi tsumo
>not making your opponent who is also kokushi tenpai deal into your open riichi for a double yakuman
>implying giving your opponent a chance to tsumo his own kokushi isn't manly as hell
Admittedly this is only because the house rules are bullshit and only count the tiles you discard as furiten for Kokushi.
Admittedly this is only because the house rules are bullshit and only count the tiles you discard as furiten for Kokushi.
Very retarded. That's basically asking for a 13 sided wait so you can ron. Also, if your opponent is in tenpai, that means he had a ton to discard as well, unless that was his winning tile, in which case you just dealt in. And every time you pass on winning through tsumo, aiming for the double yakuman, it only adds to his safe tiles, and makes it so that you should have just won with the original. All in all, it only works because of stupid house rules, and even then it doesn't seem manly because the odds are heavily in your favor that he'll pick up one or more of your outs before he picks up his own winning tile.
>mfw, someone's kan call suddenly gave me kan dora ankou
Saki-san went Saki. Cost me the game as the dealer.
WWYD - Kan edition
90% of you would've kan'd that on your first turn.
>90% of you would've kan'd that on your first turn.
And they would have been right? Just because you got the rinshan doesn't mean it was the right choice you know? Riichi + Ura dora could have been much much more, but even without it, it still would have been a haneman once you tsumo'd it. There was no gain here from not doing it on the first turn except it probably looked cooler.
No, they wouldn't have been. You typically don't kan until you're at least 1 shanten (and only then IMO if you'd have to cut the tile), but ideally you wait until tenpai to both give yourself a chance at rinshan and to make sure no one else can benefit from the kan until you're ready to riichi. Kan into riichi is a very strong play pattern.
Needless to say, kans made outside of tenpai very frequently backfire, and for a middle tile like 5m there's no need before then because of how flexible middle tiles are. In fact, declaring kan would make most manzu tiles you could draw that much harder to use.
You're wrong though. You're right that the rinshan shouldn't be the deciding factor but kan on the first turn is generally not a good idea since the hand can still evolve into something more efficient. See >>14648195 for example.
There's also the possibility that other people's hands will be more dangerous with the kan dora. It can easily backfire if someone has a fast hand and gain extra doras from that. Just because YOU think you can get to riichi + ura dora by declaring on the first turn doesn't mean it was the right choice, you know?
I worded that badly. I'm not saying normally it would be better. I'm saying that with the way things went in this hand, there were no downsides to doing it on the first turn. With the way the hand ended up, I'd have kan'd at Ii-shan when it became clearer that the 5's wouldn't need to work with anything else. That would have gotten the hand into tenpai, then riichi'd with an ippatsu tsumo afterwords and a single ura would push it into baiman. In this instance, being down by so much in south 3 without a dealer turn left, I still think the better option would be an ii-shan kan than a rinshan tsumo.
I didn't say there was. I said that there were no downsides to doing it on the first turn in this instance unlike what >>14648091 implied, and that I personally would have waited until ii-shan-ten to kan. Two separate lines.
Can you read?
>in this instance
Stop confusing potential with reality. The reality is that one of those "90%" who kan'd on the first turn would have had a chance at a bigger hand than was won. I even said that I wouldn't have kan'd on the first turn, so stop making an ass out of yourself.
Chill niggas. I posted this >>14648091 simply to see if people will kan or not. Not to see you guys argue over shit nobody cares about like tiles efficiency or some DEEP mahjong psychology.
What are you gonna do with all those theories anyway?
I don't know if you worded that like you meant to, but I'll respond like you did.
You do realize the tile Kan'd didn't become the dora right? 3 people close to each other in points in south 3 are going to fold because the person in 4th closed kan within the first 5 turns without any visible gain? That's ridiculous, and I shouldn't have to tell you that. And like I said, the reality of the situation was that even if everyone did fold for some reason, every single tile was self drawn, so it didn't matter. Unless your next claim is that, while folding, they were also going to start calling on tiles for some reason.
Arguing like this is fun, so I refuse.
>Once the riichi comes
I'm confused. First off all, this entire time we were arguing against kan'ing on the first turn, so why did this suddenly shift to arguing against riichi? Second, theoretically, this hand couldn't be won without riichi if the rinshan kaihou didn't hit unless you changed it to include tan yao and went damaten, (which would only net a mangan), and winning with rinshan kaihou (a haneman) would set up too high a hurdle next hand. That just boils it down to relying on luck for next hand instead. Third, the reality of the hand was that it didn't matter if anyone folded because every tile was self drawn like I said. So what are you even arguing at this point?
You are using hindsight, which only works for that case. You don't get to use hindsight in real time. People who kan on the first turn will only make it harder for themselves to win, which makes it a bad move.
Your very first argument was >>14648204
>And they would have been right
So no, they would have not been right unless again, you use hindsight to determine all the tiles that would come afterward. In every WWYD question, nobody should use the specific outcome as a factor. It's about determining what's the best course of action. For example, someone declare a furiten riichi with a hell wait and win an ippatsu tsumo, I'm sure you will still call it a good move since "it doesn't matter because every tile was self drawn" but in reality it's simply a stupid move.
>tfw no one would take you seriously anyway because you suck
Of course I'm using hindsight when I said it was the right move. Since there's no other way to determine the "right" move without knowing the tiles that came after, that has to be said with hindsight. I've never said it would be the "smart" move, only the right move, unlike what the original comment implied. And even without hindsight, I still believe waiting until tenpai to kan was the wrong move.
For me it's Gogo and KyuuAA. Lowest monthly win rate (33,3%) against those two. But they aren't real mutual "rivals".
Huh, I didn't realize I played against Universe so much. I'd consider him a rival if I didn't usually beat him
>your shousuushii will never materialize, not even to bots
NoName got a Daisangen, I fed him his third set then riichi'd against his single wait and dealt in near the end of the game
What were you even thinking? The only time I've seen someone riichi during open daisangen and not be 100% retarded was when they used a suji trap and waited on a tile safe against said daisangen. And even that was 98% retarded. This is 120%.
>Finally start winning in L0
>Now I'm getting destroyed by NoNames and 7kyus in L7447
I have a 100% winning record against NoNames. Get on my level.
Wow. Such big numbers, like, whoa. Suteki.