>>14613521 You deserve hugs or flowers. Seriously.
I'll have my copy in something like 2 or 3 days. I'll still put a low resolution upload on some places anyway, so people can get an idea of how it looks like before buying (or... *caugh* "borrowing" it).
Because I fear the circle and this anime didn't get the recognition it deserves, considering the very low exposure it had.
>>14613891 If I were to wager a guess, anon got Fantasy Kaleidoscope confused with this. Though, that's available in at least 720p on YouTube, in absolutely watchable quality, so I'm not sure what the deal is.
>>14614391 Probably because A Summer's Day Dream is pretty much average SoL and Memories of phantasm is full of gigantic tiddies, which is cool but I don't think it belongs in a "serious" anime about my favorite franchise.
>>14614391 Pretty much >>14614435 although I liked ASDD. Sawashiro as Marisa was just genius, and the animation went from shit tier to pretty nice between the first and 3rd parts. MoP really went overboard with muh 2hu tits and muh naked 2hus, even though the battles scenes aren't bad.
>>14614735 MoP started out fine. First episode was nothing outstanding, but enjoyable due to production values and basic Touhou story elements. Then they went full memes with EoSD. It's not that MoP is not enjoyable now, but the levels of "not even trying" regarding how the script is written are depressing.
So 1. Maribel and Renko are just wasting screen time and derailing the setting from folklore/fantasy and filling it with meta shit 2. Moonbitches 3. Original characters everywhere 4. Yukari looks like a 30 years old crossdresser. Though that could be a good thing. Because fuck Yukari. 5. Five minutes of credits
A Summer's Day Dream > Memories of Phantasm (first episodes) > The Scaled Esoteric History > Memories of Phantasm (latest episodes)
I like the way of storytelling, but I wish they'd given more time to the actual war scene. The Suika fight felt really short, and it was disappointing to see her get her shit slapped by some random ass old dude.
>>14614809 >1. Maribel and Renko are just wasting screen time and derailing the setting from folklore/fantasy and filling it with meta shit That's pretty much how their CD stories are. I don't see how it's a bad thing. >Memories of Phantasm (first episodes) >s) What, you like crazy yandere "hahaha play with me Marisa" Flandre?
>>14614849 >>14614763 Might you might be mixing it up with Enma, featured in Vedic and Buddhist mythology, AKA Yama? "Tenma" might designate a type of female deities in Tibetan Buddhism, a Pegasus-like creature in Chinese mythology or Mara, the Lord of Death, of Buddhist cosmology. Although the Touhou Wiki claims that "[Tenma] was originally a Buddhist god, but Japanese people have had him identified with tengu, so he was commonly seen to be the boss of tengu.", the Japanese wikipedia entry on Tenma does not mention anything about Tengu. In any case it's highly improbable that this 'Lord Tenma' is Mara, he or she is just called 'Tenma'.
>>14614895 You're right, ZUN did at least outright name drop Takamagahara.
>We don't even know if there is a boss. In terms of image it's Takamagahara, so there might be someone even greater that just doesn't feel like showing up. It's easy to imagine that someone is there, though. In terms of Takamagahara, not even Eirin has that high of a position. But there are probably more than just gods there.
Source is the most recent interview he did after LoLK's release so this is actually his most up to date words.
>>14615013 The background info on the Lunarian civilization is pretty cool (being a not really genuine Pure Land, having a history somehow closely connected to Earth but not entirely clear, etc) but the "muh super powered, super tech'd, super god'd mary sues" is just bad. Besides it can be argued that if we go by the logic that grants Lunarians such power, Tenshi should be even more powerful than all the Lunarians combined, however if we go there conflicting explanations of terms like "celestials", "gods" and "heavens" in Touhou (coupled with inadequate translation into English) that lie underneath all this rise to the surface.
>>14615016 Yeah she gets a pass. The newest additions to the Lunarian circle are mostly alright, and of course Reisen doesn't count within the worst thing ZUN came up with category. The powerlevels were better when they were pretty much
>>14615169 I don't think this is quite correct. With regards to origin stories and ways of life and interactions with others and the world, there are a lot of differences to say nothing of the mythology Celestials are tied to. The "Dragon God" being the same as the "Dragon King" is doubtful; the Dragon God is referred to as 龍 (Ryuu) while the master of the Dragon Palace is supposed to be 龍神 (Ryuujin). The statue of the Dragon God in Gensokyo can be literally taken to be a "Ryuujin statue", the term 龍神 appears only with reference to the Dragon God's statue in the PMiSS entry. So there's probably not much meaning behind the palace being on the Moon instead of in the sea.
>>14614992 Because in Touhou being "the strongest" means next to nothing, and in return for their power the Lunarians live lives that are hollow and empty - they can't really change or grow, cannot understand true beauty or what it means to put your life on the line for something, etc.
>>14615306 True, however it still turns some kinds of discussion to cancer. I don't really remember but, was it ever said that Lunarians themselves find their lives boring? It would also be interesting to really define what "strength" is in 2hu.
>>14615317 Yeah, but that's a bad thing only for those who lack the "qualifications" necessary to be reborn in Bhava-agra, or for those who aren't working on getting there through training. This ties in to my question above.
>>14615339 >I don't really remember but, was it ever said that Lunarians themselves find their lives boring? No, only the rabbits do.
But that is because moon rabbits are allied with Chang'e who is imprisoned by the Lunarians. They basically use her as a bargaining chip to force the entire moon rabbit race in slavery.
In actual fact the sidestories in CiLR explain a lot about the actual situation on the moon. Stuff like the legendary underwater Dragon Palace being just a lie the Watatsuki sisters concocted out of misplaced mercy to a human who accidentally fell through the entrance to the Lunar Capital. The full Lunarian citizens actually enjoy blissful and fully spiritually fufilled lives apart from the Lunarian nobles who are always politcally moving against each other. It's even where it was established Eirin is basically the Grand Auntie of the Watatsuki sisters husbands.
>>14615339 >It would also be interesting to really define what "strength" is in 2hu. According to Yukari it doesn't matter whether you're the best warrior alive, or have the most hax abilities in existence; the only thing that really matters is your ability to think outside the box.
Yukari said once that she was no match for Eiki, and said another time that Eiki's strength is irrelevant because she's smart enough to do whatever she wants right under her nose and get away with it.
>>14615471 The principle holds true, but as far as that conversation itself goes it was yet another cryptic as fuck conversation in 2hu. The Yama has no control or power over the living in the first place. Maybe Yukari is talking about hiding from death.
The only complaint I have is that it wasn't voiced; it felt so surreal watching something with pretty decent sound direction but all those silent lip flaps. Hell, even Chinese voices would have been better than nothing.
That aside, from what I can tell, it did a good job covering events that are canon but were never really elaborated on. The writers clearly know their shit. And Renko and Merry getting to take their 'lunar tour' was a nice touch.
>>14615149 >if we go by the logic that grants Lunarians such power, Tenshi should be even more powerful than all the Lunarians combined Not at all. The Lunarians aren't powerful just because of 'muh purity'. For one thing, most if not all of them are either gods or have divine lineage. Secondly, they left Earth for the Moon thousands of years ago, built a society in a pure land, and have spent the intervening time developing both magic and technology at their leisure. They've perfected themselves, their society, and their abilities. All those things in combination make them more powerful than the inhabitants any Earthly realm.
Tenshi and the other celestials are, well, just celestials. Superior to humans and youkai, perhaps, and pure, but not actually gods themselves. And Bhava'agra is not described as a place that strives for progress; undoubtedly, even the youkai on the mountain have made greater technological progress than they. Heaven is a boring place.
The celestials and Earthly gods are simply not as powerful as the gods on the moon, and everyone else on Earth is an impure mortal, not to mention inferior in technology and/or magic. Arguing about powerlevels in Touhou may be stupid, and it doesn't make sense in the context of danmaku, but that doesn't mean you can't ever say someone is more powerful than another. This is one of those cases; the Lunarians are just better than everyone else.
>>14615628 >>14615789 In real world cosmology, Celestials are gods. That's what I was referring to by "conflicting explanations of terms like 'celestials', 'gods' and 'heavens' in Touhou". This is a meeting point of many cosmologies all elaborating on or compromising with each other, and in what way Touhou takes them is unclear. However I'll concede the point that since there are many tiers of Celestials, a number of those might be weaker than the gods on the Moon. Of course the "society" in Bhava-agra doesn't strive for progress, because they literally don't need it. Having everything they want is the point of being Celestial and probably only a handful like Tenshi find things boring. The Lunarian society evidently needed such things, and Lunarians supposedly came into existence for the very reason that life on Earth wasn't good enough. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but generic Lunarians were never actually stated to be gods anywhere, and SSiB had one of the sisters IIRC speculate that one day they also will die.
I'm still waiting for the day ZUN will clarify the problematic subjects, because if you're interested in Eastern cosmologies trying to establish consistency in the 2hu cosmology begins to feel like hammering nails into your brain due to the amount of inconsistencies, gaps and outright lack of definitions. I don't expect Buddhism tier cosmological depth and consistency but it can be made to be much less vague.
Also see the other post mentioning the Dragon God. Iku works for Ryuujin, not the Dragon God. Did ZUN mention a connection other than that?
>>14615904 >BitVomit BitTorrent is one of the most efficient distribution technologies ever invented. I'm still waiting for more eroge companies to start using torrent to distribute their trials. Having to deal with shitty mirrors isn't fun.
>>14616056 While it's not quite a donut steel (it's some character from a side-anime thing from Lucky Star), it is probably shit. I don't trust anything to be good Touhou fanstuffs when it gives non-touhou things top billing like that. Like they're using them for a popularity boost or something.
>>14615815 >That's because the Lunar Capital and the dwelling of a hermit are rather similar. The residents of the Lunar Capital are closer to hermits or celestials than humans.
>Oh yeah, Iku's species is not written as "Messenger of the Dragon Palace" in katakana, but in kanji, and the Dragon Palace really does exist. Although it's actually the Lunar Capital. >You mean like how celestials live in the Lunar Capital. >There are various connections between the places in and beyond Gensokyo.
>>14616092 >There are various connections between the places in and beyond Gensokyo. Naturally.
>That's because the Lunar Capital and the dwelling of a hermit are rather similar. The residents of the Lunar Capital are closer to hermits or celestials than humans. Yeah, similar; they don't age and die like humans do.
>Oh yeah, Iku's species is not written as "Messenger of the Dragon Palace" in katakana, but in kanji, and the Dragon Palace really does exist. Although it's actually the Lunar Capital. I believe those were originally two different statements, and you've rather twisted them around.
>You mean like how celestials live in the Lunar Capital. Bull-fucking-shit, I dare you to give a source for that. You really mean to tell me that Bhava'agra is the Moon, and that Iku and Tenshi are up there chilling with the Lunarians? And that Yukari and Suika just walked right in in? No, either you've misunderstood, that's a bad translation, or you just pulled it out of your ass.
>>14615770 Why do people get so hung up on Eiki? She's just a yama. Not even THE yama, just the one in charge of Gensoukyou's dead. She's a bureaucrat. You can't escape her judgement if you die and go before her, but aside from that specific scenario, she's not especially powerful.
>>14615789 The 'Dragon God' doesn't actually exist. The statue in the Human Village is just a meteorological station built by the kappa. All the stories Rinnosuke tells the girls about him are made-up explanations because he doesn't know how rainbows or fossils work (since Rinnosuke is like Calvin's dad from Calvin & Hobbes when he talks about things like that). His name is given to various things and places, but it's just a name. The Dragon God is treated kind of like the monolithic Christian God in Gensoukyou, supposedly this all-powerful being who created the Earth and whatnot, but we know that's not true. Humans created gods and youkai from their minds, and while both may be very real, the Dragon God in particular is superstition. Always remember that pretty much everyone in Touhou is an unreliable narrator.
>>14616187 Ah yes, I had to go back and re-read that. What you failed to mention in your original post is that that statement was made by the interviewer, and then ZUN kind of brushes it off.
At best, this seems to indicate that the Lunarians don't mind dealing with the celestials, since they're also pure, and so there are some who facilitate communication between the Moon's gods and Heaven.
>>14616221 That intro is just Marisa's thoughts on youkai's thoughts; there's nothing concrete.
You do make a point, but it's a moot one. Even if the Dragon God had come into being from people believing in those superstitions, that still would have happened after the fact. He still wouldn't, couldn't, have created the world or anything nearly so grand as that. He would just be another god. So while there may certainly be 'a Dragon God', there is no 'THE Dragon God' in the sense that Rinnosuke and the others describe him.
>You mean like how celestials live in the Lunar Capital. Question by the interviewer, who... was ZUN himself, right? Or am I making shit up? However, what ZUN says afterwards (>There are various connections between the places in and beyond Gensokyo.) is closer to "to put it briefly, all these places (Moon, Bhava-agra, Gensokyo etc) are connected in various ways" the way I understand it. It doesn't equate Bhava-agra with the Moon, but maybe it means that "[certain] Celestials live in the Lunar Capital". The Japanese sentence certainly is more ambiguous than a flat, solid declaration but I'm not gud enough and too sleepy to give a better translation.
>She's just a yama. Not even THE yama This is an interesting point because we don't know if "THE Yama" exists in 2hu or not. Depending on what variation of Mahayana Buddhist cosmology you look at, he might exist, or there might simply be a multitude of Yamas (we know that in 2hu there are differences between Yamas at the very least). According to an encyclopedia I just consulted, originally a single King Yama was distinguished, surrounded by 9 other Kings, but variations of this image basically started to portray all Kings in the same way, leading to the "10 Yamas". The function of all these 10 Kings were very similar in the first place, however.
>The 'Dragon God' doesn't actually exist [...] the Dragon God in particular is superstition. Always remember that pretty much everyone in Touhou is an unreliable narrator. Interesting theory. I like it myself.
>>14616263 >we don't know if "THE Yama" exists in 2hu or not. Well, it's fairly clear the Touhou takes a non-traditional view of the system. It's pretty heavily implied (maybe even outright stated?) that there are more than ten yama nowadays, since Hell and its associated realms are getting ever more busy and crowded. Presumably there has to be someone in charge (whoever made the decision to abandon the Hell of Blazing Fires and relocate, for example), but the exact hierarchy is never described.
Regardless, Eiki isn't that high-ranking; she works twelve-hour shifts every day judging just the souls from Gensoukyou, and her shinigami can't even afford a nice boat.
>>14616312 I think it was said that there are 10 Yamas for... every "location" or a realm, or something. ZUN employs a pretty tongue in cheek style when discussing the otherworld bureaucracy, as it's pretty normal to consider that the classical number of 10 (which in earlier cases was I believe just 1, Yama himself, discounting his aides) is a bit insufficient when you keep in mind the number of people dying in a single day, even in older times. As for the one in charge, it might be a council, there doesn't necessarily have to be a single person.
>>14616359 >Regardless, Eiki isn't that high-ranking; she works twelve-hour shifts every day judging just the souls from Gensoukyou, and her shinigami can't even afford a nice boat. She's still in the end a Yama for this region and that puts her as the top authority within Gensokyo that we know of. Also last I checked Komachi's boat is less a mode of transportation and more of a tool used as a border check for souls.
For all Yukari's boasting about getting away with things you need to read between the lines. It's the same as a student hiding something they shouldn't have whenever the teacher makes the rounds. But she knows if she ever gets caught by Eiki she is completely screwed as she can see through everything.
Fact is Shiki Eiki does have authority enough that she is technically also Yuyuko's boss. I forget where it was stated but she has enough power to authorize something like expanding the size of the Netherworld, assigning Yuyuko as an administrator.
I'm inclined to believe >>14616312 has a point, IIRC they have touched on Eiki's origins before which implies Yama's can be elected. I think it was in WaHH? Komachi has mentioned that Shiki Eiki's base was originally a Jizou statue that became extremely powerful and eventually a Yama because of her earnest personality which lends credit to that.
We also know according to Komachi Shinigami's don't do anything but ferrying and weighing souls they don't have any particular structure other than reporting to the Yama. Actually collecting on lifespans is the job of Kishin's who belong to a different department of hell and shinigami's basically have to send in a request to them like contacting a repot man. We don't know how the Kishin chiefs relate to the Yama in general.
>>14618166 Yeah the fact that there is a multi-Yama system that works through elections or promotions has been established clearly. I found it interesting that a Jizou statue, representing the Bodhisattva that pretty much specializes in saving beings from Hells, became a Yama. It ties in nicely with what Eiki says about the existence of Hells (ideally) being a method to prevent people from falling into those very Hells. That Eiki is also Yuyuko's boss would make sense, since the Netherworld is part of the cycle of rebirth and the Yamas have a role to play in the passage between 2 lives. ZUN should however explain how the thing about cutting down spirits to "reset" their transmigration and spirits refusing to give their ded shekels to Komachi falling into the depths of the Sanzu river to get eaten by fish work.
>>14618328 The plot's been mentioned tons of times before, if you were keeping up with news of it. It's the story of the first Genso-Lunar War and how Kaguya was exiled from the Moon, with the Sealing Club as a framing device.
>>14619265 Do you know about all those criminals who are lured into Gensokyo to be eaten by youkai? It could be those people. Since they have lots of sins and it can take a significant amount of time to judge them. I wouldn't be surprised if for example for some faggot from Aum Shinrikyo it would take whole day for a single judgement.
>>14620080 >dead people tend to cross the border like Mexicans This has nothing to do with the thread but, what if Trump is actually Yukari? I mean they both are pretty hung up on "muh borders", both are old, both are resourceful and cunning, and they even share the same color scheme.
>>14615628 >2.93 MB > The only complaint I have is that it wasn't voiced; it felt so surreal watching something with pretty decent sound direction but all those silent lip flaps. Hell, even Chinese voices would have been better than nothing.
Screw that, I like the fact that the film wasn't dirtied with real voices. It has a nice charm to it, just like MoP did to have them silent. It gives it that Touhou feel I like so much. Besides, it gives room for anyone to voice act including the good ones if they really wanted to.
>>14622105 Not just OC Lunarians, male OC Lunarians who are stronger than the Watatsuki sisters and look like gorillas. And hermaphrodite OC Lunarians who are as smart as Eirin. In a story written by Chinese people about China-themed characters beating up Japan-themed characters, which also retcons the backstory of Imperishable Night. (They're making Kaguya a natural Hourai immortal who was exiled for political reasons, using the Hourai Elixir as an excuse)
>>14622105 It's a touhou anime that takes a very different approach from the others and tries to tell the old history of Gensokyo. Stories like the first Genso-Lunar war aren't fleshed out so it can't be helped that some liberties are taken.
>>14622151 >They're making Kaguya a natural Hourai immortal who was exiled for political reasons, using the Hourai Elixir as an excuse Since no subs are out I don't know the actual story, but if this is the case then that's sad. I hope they don't change too many things. Adding their own interpretations to fill in gaps is okay, but I don't like it when you start changing actual facts we know.
>>14622171 >>14622356 There's nothing wrong with males in touhou. We already know they exist in the universe.
>>14622831 IIRC the "ultra powerful dude" holds the same office in the flashback that Yorihime does in modern times. Given that he can't die of old age, I'd say it's heavily implied that he's going to be killed by Eirin.
>>14622831 >Eirin was literally stated to be Tsukuyomi's right hand and one of the most important people on the moon. There's a difference between importance and rank, though. Who's more important: the Vice-President, or the Scientific Advisor to the President? What if the President pretty much always listens to the advisor's advice?
>>14622843 Lots of male gods are mentioned and indirectly shown as powerful. They just don't show up in person.
>>14622863 >And Tenshi's dad was just some guy who served a god. Even if he holds an important position as heavenly official that says absolutely nothing about his magical power. He's a celestial, so that makes him pretty strong on its own.
>>14623652 Thcrap. It's a program that patches your files by downloading the translation. The end result is more or less the exact same as the classic patches with "thXXe.exe" type files, you just can't download prepatched versions. Explanations on how to use the thcrap is on the thcrap wiki, if it sounds a bit complicated at first don't be discouraged, you'll figure it out pretty soon, it's actually simple.
>>14623678 >Because muh greatest sin in Gensokyo (TM)
Seeing the situation, I bet that is some Yokai (Yukari) crap, since human exist on Gensokyo for the sake Yokais, since they need them to exist, if human starts transforming on yokai for any reason, their population will become be in danger and they could dissapear, and if Yukari don't manage to get more human in gensokyo fast in the case of that event, yokais will die on masses.
>>14623693 Yeah that's pretty much what we all had concluded when our jimmies got rustled when Reimu became Coldsteel the Hedgeheg. On a related note, I still can't integrate this event with her. It just seems so caricatural and out of character; she really does the "psssshhhhht nothing personnel kid" thing for fuck's sake. If only ZUN knew about OC donut steel.
>>14623748 But despise everthing isn't Reimu (and the Hakurei shrine and miko in general) just the human super soldier UNDER Yukari orders, she is, in a way, indoctrinated to act with extreme prejudice when someone actually breaks the rule in that level?
>>14623772 The act itself was, even if I'd prefer it not taking place at all, acceptable due to the whole "muh great sin" thing they explained at the same time. It's able to fit into the shrine maiden's duties. However Reimu's nothing personnel kid attitude has nothing to do with that and was simply retarded.
By the way while going again through Yukari-Reimu dialogues in PCB, I got the feeling that the 2 never met before (same with Marisa). Did ZUN retcon this or did I misunderstand?
So what, exactly, is purity? Or rather, what's impurity? The lunarians seem to detest it. I've looked up some definitions relating to taoism and buddhism but they seem to be vague. Why are the lunarians scared to death of it? What makes something impure?
>>14624026 >I've looked up some definitions relating to taoism and buddhism but they seem to be vague. Kegare is a Shinto thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegare
They are scared to death because it's literally death. Being exposed to it weakens you and makes you age and causes bad things to happen around you. The Earth is so soaked with it that it's impossible for humans to avoid coming into contact with it, but the Lunarians left Earth before it got that bad. Hermits get their powers by expelling impurity from their bodies, restoring them to their original state.
The Japanese obsession with bathing (and that famous "meditate under a waterfall" ritual) comes from a belief that you can literally wash impurity away if you use sufficiently pure/sacred water ("pure" and "sacred" are literally the same word in Japanese). One of a Shinto priest's duties is to keep their shrine clean of impurity so that gods are capable of residing there. You're not allowed into a Shinto shrine if someone in your family has died recently. Japanese people can be discriminated against if one of their ancestors was a butcher, because it was an "unclean" job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin
>>14624358 >Butchers, sanitation workers, etc. were referred to as "eta", meaning "piles of filth", because their jobs constantly brought them into contact with kegare >Eta could only live in certain areas and weren't allowed to grow crops >Eta status was hereditary and could never be removed, despite the rest of Japanese society allowing for people to move between castes >Touching an eta was considered a sin which required immediate ritual purification >Eta were legally required to remove their hats in the presence of their betters (everyone else) >The Japanese legal system defined eta as having 1/7th the value of a human >It was not a crime for samurai to murder eta; if anything it was encouraged as a way to test out a new sword >Descendants of eta are still discriminated against today
Now consider that Earthlings are more impure than eta by Lunarian standards. And that the Watatsuki sisters have willingly hosted Earthlings in their own home, and taken off their own hats while talking to Earthlings who kept theirs on.
>>14624047 No, it's actually mortality. Read CiLR. As for the hourai elixir, I thought the same, but apparently the lunarians have some retarded roundabout explanation like how "becoming detached from the concept of life and death" is the greatest impurity.
>>14624603 >"becoming detached from the concept of life and death" is the greatest impurity >it's about mortality
I've already read it, but I don't get it. If it's morality that they want to stay away from, then isn't drinking the hourai elixir and removing the concept of life and death a form of purifying? Because if not, it sounds like they want to be like earthlings, which makes even less sense.
>>14624882 http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Impurity >Impurity appears in Touhou mostly in the context of the Lunarians, who seek to avoid it at all costs and possess a plant which can detect it. Drinking the Hourai Elixir forever taints a person with the concept of death by its absence, and thus Lunarians consider those who have drunk it to be impure.
Thanks for the thorough explanation. But this leave one other important question. If impurity causes death, then isn't the hourai elixir the ultimate medicine of purification? It literally makes death impossible. The person cannot be tainted with disease or even age either. Why did Kaguya get banished for drinking it?
>>14624917 It's not that don't believe it. It's simply strange to me that it's that, of all things, that is considered forbidden by the lunarians. The only possible thing I can think of that would lead them to that conclusion is that the Udonge plant bloomed in Kaguya's presence after she consumed it. But even that wouldn't make sense, seeing as how the Elixir does the exact opposite of inducing change in someone. Hell, it's made from eternity itself, isn't it? Kaguya's power? I guess my real question is, what is impure about the hourai elixir?
The Lunarians know they're going to die...someday. They know no one can escape the cycle of life and death except through unnatural means. However that doesn't mean they're not going to try and ignore their mortality for as long as they can through purification. Which is why they moved to an area devoid of life which itself is entwined with death.
To be eternal like the Lunarians just isn't the same thing as immortality which the elixir provides.
The elixir itself isn't tainted by impurity, it's just the person themselves who becomes tainted upon drinking it.
To fear death and drink the elixir is to introduce the thought or concept of death into the person, so they're no longer pure by Lunarian standards. That's what the Lunarians want to avoid.
I believe the elixir is simply intended to be a test to determine who is worthy of Lunarian society and Kaguya failed. What's more, I believe it's said Lunarians themselves have used it as a way of toying with the earthly mortals for generations either for their amusement or to see if any are worthy when confronted with the temptation of immortality.
>>14625033 >The Lunarians know they're going to die...someday. >To be eternal like the Lunarians
These two statements cannot go together and both be true. Also, I wasn't talking out of my ass. It's well known the lunarians use the udonge plant to detect impurity, particularly when it blooms. In addition, you're implying that there is a difference between running away from death by literally moving away from it to a different place, and running away from it by becoming immune to it. Both are essentially an attempt at preserving life by removing the concept of life and death. There is literally no difference except in their effectiveness.
>>14624949 can someone tweet zun about this? i'm genuinely curious too now. didn't chang'e get imprisoned for drinking it too? it sounds counter intuitive that it's so forbidden when the lunarians try to create an artificial pure land on the moon. the hourai elixir sounds exactly like something the lunarians would want, it should be called a purification medicine, not a forbidden one.
>>14625725 I heard that it's nearly impossible to get in touch with ZUN, but others say that it's possible from twitter. This surprised me actually, I'd thought that he would be interacting with people fairly often through mail
>>14625339 They're exactly as bitchy as Reimu - she even says Yorihime acted exactly as she would in that situation. So I guess it depends on what you think of Reimu.
Remember that her home was invaded by monsters who threatened to conquer/kill everyone, sent by Yukari Yakumo herself (who has a proven record of wanting to do that), and at one point Reimu actually started throwing concentrated kegare everywhere in full knowledge of what it would do. Yet all she did was send them home and invite one of them over for tea.
The "moonbitches" thing came from a combination of Anglophones not knowing what kegare is and assuming they made it up, not reading CiLR (where they actively protect humans from other Lunarians), and how Yukari doesn't want to face them in a fair fight THAT'S A LIE YUKARI IS THE STRONGEST 2HU ZUN IS LYING BECAUSE HE'S JEALOUS
By contrast, Sagume literally tried to kill everyone on Earth and no one cares.
>>14625814 >but they become alive if they drink the elixir.
But that's wrong. Take a look at Mokou's dialogue with Alice in IN. >I can't die. >To be devoid of death is to be devoid of life. >Without the unnecessary states of life and death, I'm about as close as you can get to a pure human.
And also look at her inner monologue in CiaLR >All life crumbles away - each and every living thing must die, this was the law of the world. If that's the case, then maybe I haven't been living since I drank the elixir. Maybe there was no point in acting to preserve my life anymore. What should I be trying to accomplish?
Kaguya, an actual lunarian, doesn't even call herself an immortal, but an 'eternal being'.
All evidence points to the exact opposite of what you just said. The fairies are different altogether, too. They embody nature.
>>14622755 >>14625953 IIRC the reason for why the writers changed that stuff about Kaguya was because they couldn't understand why Lunarians would consider the Hourai Elixir bad, especially since the moon rabbits' work is apparently part of an attempt to create it. So they decided that "You are impure now" was just an excuse by Eirin's enemies to get rid of her.
>>14625814 >>14625151 >>14625127 >>etc >蓬莱の薬を使うと人間と同じ穢れが生じてしまう >By consuming the Hourai Elixir you will produce the same kegare as humans. Regardless of whether the Elixir makes you without life or death, by producing kegare you taint everything.
In the original serialization of CiLR, we have this: >不老不死になると同時に、不老不死という誘惑に負けた事で人間と同様の穢れが生まれ >The same time as becoming immortal, by succumbing to the temptation of immortality you give rise to the same kegare as humans. Which was removed in the novelization, but is relevant nonetheless.
Also, the udonge didn't bloom in Kaguya's presence. Which is key, because it's set up as to imply Kaguya is influencing the plant just by being there, as opposed to her belief that it was her power over eternity preserving Eientei still lingering, "but it should bloom soon".
>In addition, you're implying that there is a difference between running away from death by literally moving away from it to a different place, and running away from it by becoming immune to it. There is; you're thinking about it as an escape from death explicitly rather than an escape from kegare. Tsukuyomi moved to the moon to escape Earth's kegare, which does eat away at life. But the Hourai Elixir also makes you produce kegare, so you would have to leave the moon. You might never die, but that isn't the overall goal.
>>14625814 That depends on your definition of life though, doesn't it? From the perspective of Buddhism, for example, Lunarians are definitely alive. So are "eternal beings", though they certainly live a stumped life; that's why Mokou talks about not living. And the sisters talk about how one day they too can die, I think that there's no real basis to suppose that Lunarians are immortal, but it's for sure that they live really long, on a human scale. A practical reason why Lunarians are averse to the Elixir could be that there is a good chance that the ones drinking it will be thrown into suffering, as Mokou has been. As she herself put it, people living without hardships and the like would be those that would be best served by the Elixir, but the conditions that make their lives easy are not eternal, therefore if those conditions would be lost, they'd become miserable or insane. Maybe it's due to such considerations too. Let's also add as an aside that there is no truly eternal being present here. Such a being would be one whose body is unaffected by change (or has no body), who always feels the same thing (or nothing), who always perceives the same thing (or nothing), always intends the same thing (or has no intention), and whose consciousnesses always grasp the same thing (or nothing at all- incidentally this also should mean that everything that stems from consciousness is cut off). Neither Mokou nor Kaguya fulfill these conditions. The only thing that is eternal for them are their bodies- yet technically, not even their bodies are eternal because they still feel hungry, get tired etc. Such things result from changes that occur in the body's biological system after all. So really the only thing that Kaguya and Mokou have are indestructible bodies... indestructible in any foreseeable conventional way, that is. Could be a different story at the end of the universe.
Wait, I just looked at CiaLR Look at the change from this: http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/First_Chapter&oldid=79692 to this: http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/First_Chapter&oldid=79693
They removed entire paragraphs, what the fuck? Like the whole dialogue Kaguya has about what would happen if a lunarian drinks the elixir.
>>14626412 Think of it as literal shit that clings to your soul and weighs you down. The Lunarians aren't a separate species, they moved to the moon to get away from kegare and effectively live forever.
>>14626497 >STILL saying that Lunarians definitively live forever bros stop perpetuating memes
On a related note, SSiB' sections with the Super Moon Sisters read like fanfiction. How is LEL I CANCEL UR ATTACK spam is a good idea? Making them into ace danmaku fighters would be one thing, but this is something else entirely.
>>14626497 >The Lunarians aren't a separate species This was the predominant interpretation until it was made more clear that the Lunarian nobles are the earliest Shinto gods, the Amatsukami. It's much more likely that they simply lived on the Earth for a long time and eventually moved to the Moon.
>>14629665 >In mythology he is described as a "god who came into being alone" (hitorigami), the first of the zōka sanshin ("three kami of creation"), and one of the five kotoamatsukami ("distinguished heavenly gods"). >one of the five kotoamatsukami um
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