>>14596776 Certainly not Marisa the midget. Pic related. Before you say anything, I think the values and the comparisons itself are quite bullshit. There really is no sure way of comparing Touhou heights since you guys bitch about official manga drawings from artists other than ZUN "aren't canon" and ZUN himself can't draw well enough to make a comparison.
>>14596989 That's not a bad idea. A shame that ZUN doesn't really care about things like that. One of my favorite things about LoLK is how directly he states things that normally make fans rage like Clownpiece being the outright strongest fairy, Hecatia is the highest ranking being, and just how strong the Lunarians are in his interview. Shame he doesn't clarify things this direct more often.
"However, backing up a bit...generally speaking, they're about as tall as girls in their early teens ['10代前半' means 10 to 14 years old]. A suitable breakdown would be something like: Tall: Sakuya, Meiling, Yukari Fairly Tall: Reimu, Yuyuko, Alice, Letty, Ran Fairly Short: Marisa, Youmu, Patchouli, Lunasa, Merlin Short: Remilia, Lyrica, Chen, Cirno, Rumia, Flandre Basically, if we consider the top level as the height of a human in her late teens or older ['10代後半以降' means 15 years old or above] and the bottom level as the height of a human in her early teens ['10代前半' ], that puts them in a fairly short class (though none of that level are human). If their sizes appear to be different on the game screen than given above, it's because of some mystic force like perspective, so pay it no mind. :-)"
Even Zun says it there's no point in going after the "in game character height".
>>14598771 ZUN stated 14 as the upper limit, and this is going by Japanese standards not western standards. At the very least, they're easily not even close to the old hag territory that the fanbase sticks over half of the cast into.
>>14598800 Reimu is "Fairly Tall" so I would say even "Tall" is suspect.
>>14599117 >But tall people are close in height to lolis, so they should all be lolis "Late teens and above" is the point in your life when you're at your tallest. IIRC you stop growing sometime around 26.
>>14599117 >Comparing a character who used magic to escape death from old age to a loli >Comparing the proportions of the only Touhou character with jiggle physics to a loli >The character isn't even on the height chart
>>14599117 Official art is really fucking inconsistent and ZUN seems to be unable to draw anything but lolis. In Hijiri's case the closest thing to an actual rendition is probably Symposium, which makes her petit and modest-busted but not the tall cowtit monster that secondary materials tend to portray her as.
Same goes for most of the "mature" touhous. Even Yuugi is clearly developing in her art, but saying they're all lolis is exaggerating. They're all a lot smaller than most people (secondaries) seem to think though.
>>14599288 There are tits in the official fighting games, in the official manga, and in the official art books. Just because ZUN can't draw an adult woman's body worth a damn doesn't mean every character is canonically a flat chested child.
>>14598577 So wouldn't it be somehow like this: Tall: 5'5" and above Fairly Tall: 5'2" to 5'5" Fairly short: 4'10" to 5'2" Short: <4'10" I won't find any of the official art reliable enough either to compare side by side.
>>14600016 I think the only other character height he has commented on being extremely tall since was Komachi. One of the printworks mentions her being intimidating because she is actually really tall on top of all the stuff she wears to make herself look even bigger.
>>14600768 The majority of the H-doujinshi of Marisa "Homo-Loli" Kirisame (as well as pretty much everyone from the "quite short" height category) are not even tagged loli doujinshi. Even Remilia has nearly a third of her doujinshi as non-loli. The others in her height category just don't have very many H-doujinshi to begin with.
Also, when filtering for english-translated H-doujinshi instead of raws the proportion of loli doujinshi shrinks by half in nearly every case.
In short, there's a clear correlation between hating loli and being a secondary. It's no surprise that Kancolle, which panders to these same secondaries, features older women as many of its most prominent heroines.
>>14600857 I just wish Kadokawa knew how to keep their continuity alive. At the rate things are going the "annoying people" ZUN was talking about won't be entirely gone, and in fact will probably be crawling back by the end of the decade.
>>14601778 Boob fetishists think height and boob size constantly increase with age such that a 20 year old is taller and bustier than a 16 year old, a 25+ is taller and bustier than a 20 year old, and a 30+ is taller and bustier than an 20 something.
>>14601836 Don't women stop growing after they reach 16 or 17 years old?
>>14601832 Everyone looks like a loli in GFW, maybe because the game focuses on the fairies which definitely are lolis or because of the artist's drawing style. Marisa looks quite older than that in many of the other official games.
>>14602119 >Proof? PMiSS. It is mentioned that the oldest almost all fairies look is about as old as a child of 10 years old or below.
And I am not saying that 13 year olds can't be lolis, I was just saying that Marisa doesn't look like a loli to me in that picture. Although, generally speaking, 13 year olds are supposed to be young teenagers.
>>14602176 >It is mentioned that the oldest almost all fairies look is about as old as a child of 10 years old or below.
It doesn't say that. It says their max height is about that tall. It doesn't say anything about how old they look, but it does mention that there are ones small enough to fit in your hand, so obviously size isn't a good measure of their maturity, since there's no human age that fits in your hand. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Fairy
>>14601701 >Teenage girl Reimu and Marisa are at least in their 20s by now, given that the Gensokyo timeline progresses in real time, and that they have characters like Kosuzu addressing them as adults. Also, the manga aren't legally allowed to show people under 20 drinking sake.
>>14601832 Everyone in the fairy mangas has the exact same body type - it's impossible to tell their ages unless you have multiple characters in the same panel (in which case they'll be drawn different sizes). And Marisa is a midget anyway.
>>14601143 She's early teen or mid teen with low body development. In terms of height proportion, basically right in that zone where a "loose" lolicon (or moral purist) will consider her to be loli while the "strict" lolicon (or purist in denial) would consider her too old, furthermore she's given a similar treatment to de-lolified touhous where most of her doujinshi exaggerate her age and development.
The "actual loli" in Kancolle would be the small destroyers, among which pretty much only Akatsukis are popular. Even as the main bastion of lolicon in the franchise they're considerably less popular overall compared to the older icons.
Furthermore, in terms of official art body proportion she's older than any ZUN-drawn touhou, and the vast majority of official art touhou in general. Yuuka for example does not have a single official illustration that would make her proportionately taller than Shimakaze. Sakuya's tallest manga illustration would put her right on par with Shimakaze in height, and she's one of the "tall" touhous.
>>14601701 So why is she repeatedly called a loli during M-1?
>>14603196 It's a bit hard to tell because of the angle of the picture and the fact that she is leaning but it looks like the door handle goes up to her chest or slightly below it. That doesn't say much about her height, though, since we don't know how tall the door handle or the door is.
>>14603183 >small destroyers, among which pretty much only Akatsukis are popular. >considerably less popular overall compared to the older icons. Destroyers and other characters with similar body types are actually among the most popular.
Holy shit, we got a "loli expert" in this thread. Probably straight from /a/ after finishing 2 week course "Introduction to 4chan".
If every single person in this thread tells you that she doesn't look like loli than maybe something is wrong with your definitions. Marisa looks like a teenage girl in every official work (except for few Genji Asai's illustrations who just can't draw anything except for lolis). Marisa acts like a teenage girl in every official work and actually she even does some more mature things like drinking alcohol. She's just short, but she doesn't looks any younger than Reimu or Sanae. And she's flat like all other 2hus.
>>14605959 Suika and majority of youkai are older than 21 so they can drink alcohol legally. If the only reason for age restriction on alcohol was to preserve the health of a child it wouldn't be so high. 17-18 or even 16 would be more than enough. The main purpose of restriction is to ensure that a person consumes alcohol with responsibility. So even though Suika is a typical loli and sometimes acts like a fool, she is mentally mature enough to understand the consequences of drinking. Well, at least theoretically she should understand that.
>>14606079 No, not that one. She's kinda okay, but she doesn't have mittens. It's one of the enemy boats I think, since they're all albinos. But this one has mittens usually. It also isn't a titty daemon.
>>14606104 I don't get how people can say that all 2hus are lolis because they look like lolis in ZUN's official art. They clearly don't. If anything, I find it quite hard to pinpoint what their age is supposed to be from ZUN's art. The first time I played UFO, I thought Ichirin looked like an old nun. And Byakuren had always looked about 18-20 years old to me. I would have also never guessed Remilia was supposed to be a loli vampire from her weird EoSD portrait, she looks older than Sakuya in that. I am not saying that they all look old or anything like that and there sure are characters that do look like lolis, just not everyone.
>>14606104 >>14606347 You clearly see the shape line plus the shadow at the side of left breast. We can consider a huge size because women back then pressed her breasts wearing a sarashi, if she can cause that right curve and the left breast shadow wearing a sarashi then those are a pair a massive breasts
>>14606735 What do you expect from a bunch of NEETs and pretend NEETs who are more familiar with porn doujin archetypes than actual human anatomy? Every part of a tall person's body is larger the taller they get, dont ya know? So therefore the best way to gauge the height of a character is how big their breasts are!
Basically it's your fault for expecting more out of a board who will ask a person who posts a human body diagram they got from Wikipedia to confirm their fetishes if they are an anatomy otaku.
>>14605730 The only actual loli among those are the akatsukis and maybe the sub. Hatsuhana and RJ are a toss-up between loli or just underdeveloped depending on the artist, and are still tall compared to touhous when you compare official art.
>>14605942 >>14605989 Holy shit we have a "moron who thinks that loli is defined by age" in the thread. Probably straight from /v/ after finishing 2 week course "Shitposting on 4chan".
>>14611536 Who are you you quoting? Soku spites are too disproportionate to draw any meaningful comparison whatsoever, and official =/= canon anyway. Official non-mainline games can't even maintain a consistent art style and interpretation of the characters, let alone set the baseline for character design.
>>14601787 Because it's the secondary thing to do*
>>14611547 It's still included as part of the Touhou Bougetsushou saga so whether you like it or not, it's still as canon as the other parts.
Or maybe you have a statement from ZUN saying it's not canon. If you do and show it to me, then I'll concede.
>>14611988 >Soku spites are too disproportionate to draw any meaningful comparison whatsoever You would have a point if we were talking about older-looking characters (there's nothing to suggest that Aya is supposed to look older than Sanae, for example) but despite the chibi-like artstyle, I think the sprites make crystal clear that Suwako is supposed to be a loli (same as with Remilia and Cirno).
>official =/= canon Are you serious? Any official material is canon unless ZUN says otherwise. Why the hell do you think they're official at all otherwise?
Wait, are you one of those people that considers any non-shmup spinoff to be non-canon?
>Official non-mainline games can't even maintain a consistent art style and interpretation of the characters While I'm not going to defend alphes' portraits, the sprites themselves are pretty consistent with each other and ZUN's art the big majority of the time. There are some incongruencies, like for example Koishi's floral pattern in her skirt being missing in her HM/ULiL sprites, but they are really not big enough to dismiss them completely.
>>14611988 >who thinks that loli is defined by age Are you illiterate? Or are you just retarded? >>14605942 doesn't mention age at all, but instead uses word "look" and not once, but twice. And that other post explicitly states that Suika is a typical loli even though she is hundreds years old. Just fuck off.
>non-mainline games can't even maintain a consistent [...] interpretation of the characters I really hope you used word "interpretation" to refer to art style and their look and not to describe their personality and behaviour. Because the plot and all the dialogues in games are still written by ZUN only.
>>14612072 My wording was vague I admit, but I think the context of my statement should have clued you in that I'm referring to art design when I say "canon", considering it's at the center of a rant on inconsistency in the art design of official works.
>>14612229 You started "look" and thend immediately derailed your argument into statements about how she "acts", including how drinking is supposed to indicate maturity in a discussion of bodily development.
In 'short, you're a moron who can't even keep his own argument on track and are now backpedaling because someone called you out on it.
>>14612248 >immediately derailed your argument That's an interesting interpretation of that post.
I used "acting" only as a secondary (in original meaning of this word) indication because it seems that "look" argument just doesn't work with you. With the same official art you say Marisa looks like a pre-teen loli while everyone else in this thread sees a healthy teenager. Yes, age does not define loli. But I will go a little bit of meta here to explain why it can indirectly indicate look in fiction. ZUN explicitly stated age for lots of youkai to show that they were old while maintaining a body of a loli. And at the same time he often explicitly states that some character "has a body of child" to describe a really old youkai. It's because when people see a girl who looks like 9 they assume she is 9 (and vice versa). ZUN never stated, indicated or even implied that Marisa is undeveloped for her age or looks too young. So for example if she is 15 (let's disregard event timeline logic) then she *probably* looks like 15 and is drawn as 15.
>>14612353 >With the same official art you say Marisa looks like a pre-teen loli while everyone else in this thread sees a healthy teenager. Blatantly wrong. It's nearly unanimously agreed in the thread that the ZUN art makes everyone look like children. You're not only seeing what you want to see in the characters (which is why I didn't even glorify your completely unsupported opinion on how she "looks" with a response) but you're also seeing what you want to see from a thread.
>But I will go a little bit of meta here to explain why it can indirectly indicate look in fiction. And then your meta-explanation was immediately refuted by the anon bringing up Suika, who is universally agreed to be a loli but doesn't look like it.
By the way, your later post about her being "mentally mature" was nothing less than pure unabashed fanwank.
>ZUN explicitly stated age for lots of youkai to show that they were old while maintaining a body of a loli. If you're aware that age (and thus behavior) bears no correlation with body type in this series then why bring it up in the first place
>And at the same time he often explicitly states that some character "has a body of child" to describe a really old youkai. It's because when people see a girl who looks like 9 they assume she is 9 (and vice versa). 
>ZUN never stated, indicated or even implied that Marisa is undeveloped for her age or looks too young. So for example if she is 15 (let's disregard event timeline logic) then she *probably* looks like 15 and is drawn as 15. Except, of course, his the emails quoted in this very thread.
Your rhetoric is completely inconsistent, filled with unsubstantiated opinions, and riddled with confirmation bias. You've also actively attempted to drive down the level of discourse of the thread with shitty ad populum fallacy. In short, it's time for you to stop posting.
>>14598577 >If their sizes appear to be different on the game screen than given above, it's because of some mystic force like perspective, so pay it no mind. :-) >on the game screen People realize he's not talking about the proportions in his own art, right? He's just saying that game sprites and ingame art aren't rendered directly to scale with other characters.
>>14612434 >It's nearly unanimously agreed in the thread that the ZUN art makes everyone look like children And can you link any such post which are not yours? Because I see several posts from other anons talking the opposite about official (and not only ZUN's) art: >>14602048, >>14601832, >>14606253
>refuted by the anon bringing up Suika, who is universally agreed to be a loli but doesn't look like it. I fucking explain that in the next fucking two sentences. That was the whole fucking point, you fucking idiot. If the age and looks do not correlate author usually has to explicitly pinpoint it. In case of Suika ZUN explicitly stated that she's old.
> "Her appearance [...] might seem childish, but she has actually lived for more than 500 years". Start reading official materials to educate yourself
>Except, of course, his the emails quoted in this very thread. That emails is only about HEIGHT and nothing else. You're either illiterate or retarded. Wait, I think I already said that few posts ago. I guess it's a confirmation.
Why are we still having ad populum arguments in the first place? If you're trying to say that the majority of /jp/'s touhou posters are secondaries I'm certainly not going to disagree.
>I fucking explain that in the next fucking two sentences. Yet you bring it up anyway despite it having nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. The only possible explanation is that you don't even realize you're going off topic because you don't know what you're fucking talking about.
>If the age and looks do not correlate author usually has to explicitly pinpoint it Unless the author either doesn't feel like doing so, is inconsistent, or basically everyone in the series doesn't age.
>In case of Suika ZUN explicitly stated that she's old. Her appearance [...] might seem childish, but she has actually lived for more than 500 years" Cite or provide evidence that this is a consistent pattern every single time a touhou looks younger than they actually are. Him doing it on one occasion =/= it being a general rule for every character.
>That emails is only about HEIGHT and nothing else. You're either illiterate or retarded. Wait, I think I already said that few posts ago. I guess it's a confirmation. Yeah, what does height have to do with a discussion of age specifically for determining character height? Oh wait, you're a fucking moron.
>>14612681 >Unless the author either doesn't feel like doing so, is inconsistent, or basically everyone in the series doesn't age. That's why I said it's only a secondary indication. I even put an emphases on the word "probably". You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Your whole post is you trying to prove that "age-look" argument is not reliable even though I already stated that from the very beginning. Your only goal in this discussion is to "win" and nothing else. I just don't know what to answer on your wall of text than just a simple "duh". But even though it's not reliable it's still should be considered in speculations due to the lack of completely reliable sources of information.
At the same time you suddenly tried to pull "ZUN art makes everyone look like children". Even though they do not look like children in other official works (which was even pinpointed in several posts you linked). Doesn't this ruin your very basis? Are all 2hu characters loli? If no, then ZUN's art cannot be reliably used to determine "canonical" appearance of a character. It makes ZUN's art no more credible than my meta-age argument. If yes, then all guest artists invited to work on official works are filthy secondaries for adding boobs, increasing their age, etc. And ZUN is a moron too because he lets that slip even though he supervises all their works.
>what does height have to do with a discussion of age specifically for determining character height Again, I don't see words "look" or "appearance". She is as tall as an average 12 yo girl =/= she looks like a 12 yo girl.
>>14613873 Only one character has loosely aged in real time.
Hieda no Akyuu is one of the few with an actual birth date of August 1994 and has visibly aged over the years. In her earliest appearances in the series she was still a child at 10 years old and looked that way. Right now in Forbidden Scrollery she has a more adult appearance and is actually 21 years old. She pretty much is going to die when she hits 30 so 9 years or so down the road.
>>14613873 Time progresses in Gensokyo at the same rate as the real world, so yes. A lot of the cast are youkai who don't age like humans, and the number of different artstyles they're drawn in can make it hard to tell by looking at them. But even then, Reimu and Marisas' more recent art tends to make them look older than the early stuff.
Akyuu is the most visible case of aging because she was introduced before she hit puberty. It's a lot easier to tell a 10-year-old from a 19-year-old than it is to tell a 20-year-old from a 29-year-old.
>>14612857 >That's why I said it's only a secondary indication. I even put an emphases on the word "probably". You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Your whole post is you trying to prove that "age-look" argument is not reliable even though I already stated that from the very beginning. Your only goal in this discussion is to "win" and nothing else. I just don't know what to answer on your wall of text than just a simple "duh". So you say, but you immediately contradict yourself with the following: >But even though it's not reliable it's still should be considered in speculations due to the lack of completely reliable sources of information. And this is where we have a problem. No, you do not speculate based on something that is already canonically known to bear no correlation whatsoever simply for lack of alternatives. You're effectively agreeing that, yes, your reasoning sucks ass but then you proceed to use it anyway.
And I'd say you're being dishonest in calling it a "secondary indication" because apparently your loose speculations on the character's behavior are more important than the character's actual illustration and appearance.
>At the same time you suddenly tried to pull "ZUN art makes everyone look like children". Even though they do not look like children in other official works (which was even pinpointed in several posts you linked). Doesn't this ruin your very basis? Are all 2hu characters loli? Saying ALL touhous are loli is an extreme and unlikely to be true, but I am saying the following: >ZUN art is the only remotely consistent standard on touhou characters, although it itself is far from a perfect standard. >ZUN himself said the majority of touhous (at least in EOSD era, so there is an assumption that the average remained the same) fall into 10-14 years range of height, which typically indicates level of development. The fanbase seems to agree with the height-development correlation as the tallest characters are typically also drawn the most adult in terms of bodily development, even if limited in specific aspects like Sakuya's breasts. >In general, the fanbase seems to choose who is old or tall and to what extent on an entirely arbitrary basis, as official material varies from vague to totally inconsistent and ZUN seems to let other official artists take whatever liberties they wish with characters. (At least visually.) >Touhou has an enormous secondary fanbase that revolves around fanmade content, a huge share of that being H. H characteristically exaggerates sexual characteristics (and thus age) because it exists specifically for the sake of sexualization. This in turn influences other, even non-H fanworks, as well as later hentai to exaggerate to an even greater degree, and cumulatively possibly even official works not made by ZUN. >There's a sharp decline in loli's share of touhou H-doujinshi (unfortunately statistics on this are incomplete as ExH rarely uses the tag for non-H and pixiv is just shit at tagging in general) observably going back at least as far as c77, reflecting the secondary fanbase's aging perception of the characters and demand for further sexualization.
All in all, saying all the characters are loli is an extreme, but there is a clear push for older Touhou characters in the secondary fanbase. Furthermore, because of the the lack of definitive character details and ZUN's tendency to leave character aspects open to interpretation, this push has been largely unopposed and influenced the series' perception as a whole. It's safe to say that the characters as a general rule are, in fact, younger in form than the current fanbase interpretation.
>Again, I don't see words "look" or "appearance". She is as tall as an average 12 yo girl =/= she looks like a 12 yo girl. If you say she has the height of 12 years, then what physical quality does Marisa canonically possess that makes her not look 12? We've already established that "mental age" (and thus things like expressions and the way she carries herself) has nothing to do with it.
>>14615581 I much prefer ZUN's way of handling it, however, with his remarks along the lines of “The older something is, the less canon it is”. It's as if everything in Gensokyo is just a memory, and as time goes by the details become less clear, and nobody really agrees about what happened all those months ago. (It's also quite a handy way of explaining away the multiple protagonists.)
>>14612857 >And ZUN is a moron too because he lets that slip even though he supervises all their works. he doesn't supervise shit, all he does is give artists the dialogue and they do the rest, hence why Makoto drew a dialogue-less Momiji cameo with wolf ears even though she doesn't have any and it's just a fanmade thing (later on, the SoPM artist would correctly draw her without animal traits, fitting that it's part of a Touhou encyclopedia).
The thing is that even "tall" doesn't mean "adult height", it just has no upper limit for convenience sake. Sakuya for instance is in the tall category and she's described in written material as a shoujo.
Short also doesn't technically have a lower limit either, as it was said that fairies are like the "size of 10 year olds" at max, so Cirno is very short indeed. Remilia(and by implication Flandre) was said to be physically no older than 10 herself, so characters in the short category are very short, indeed. (meaning if tall is relative, the tall characters might not actually be tall in the sense of adults, but just tall for 12 year olds.) I think Sakuya was mentioned to look like an older teen, but as older teens have basically achieved adult height anyway it could probably be said tall characters are basically adult heights, but it still doesn't really tell anything in terms of relative heights.
>>14627306 "Late teens" in ZUN's email's case is referring to 15-19. While 19 is practically an adult, 15 usually still has quite a bit of room for growth. 少女 generally isn't ever used to refer to adults, and her backstory disqualified it from referring to her age, so it's a pretty safe bet that she's on the low end of the spectrum.
> ¶ 9 Seinfeld, and other narratively complex comedies like The Simpsons, Malcolm in the Middle, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Arrested Development, and It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, use television’s episodic form to undercut conventional assumptions of returning to equilibrium and situational continuity, while embracing conditional seriality—some storylines do in fact continue, while others are never referred to again. Arrested Development, a more explicitly serialized comedy, subverts these conventions even more, as most episodes end with a “next week on Arrested Development” teaser, showing scenes continuing that episode’s stories. However, regular viewers soon learn that future episodes will neither show these scenes nor will they have actually occurred within the ongoing storyworld (although in the third season, the show varies this norm by allowing some of the teaser material to occur diegetically).
> Likewise, The Simpsons generally embraces an excessive and even parodic take on episodic form, rejecting continuity between episodes by returning to an everlasting present equilibrium state of Bart in fourth grade, Maggie as perpetual toddler, and a dysfunctional family stasis. However, there are exceptions to these norms: Apu gets married and has octuplets that grow from in utero to toddlers over the course of many seasons, suggesting that at least three years have passed in Springfield’s lifecycle, yet nobody else has aged. Often making jokes about the need to return to equilibrium state, The Simpsons offers ambiguous expectations over which transformations are “reset” after each episode—frequent losses of jobs, destruction of property, and damaging of relationships that will be restored by next week’s episode—and which will be carried over serially—like Apu’s family, Skinner and Crabapple’s relationship, and Maude Flanders’s death.
> Thus these complex comedies selectively engage serial norms, weaving certain events into their backstories while ambiguously discarding other moments into the more commonplace realm of forgotten episodic histories, a distinction that viewers must either overlook as inconsistency or embrace as one of the sophisticated traits of narrative complexity; evidence of fan practices online suggest that the latter is more common once viewers accept the shifting rules as one of the sophisticated pleasures offered by these complex comedies.
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