>>12816171 I'm envious, congratulations dude. Do you own any physical copies? I sort of want one. It sounds ridiculous but I just want it for the art. Couldn't get one really though cause I still live at home and my computer and other stuff is in a communal space
>>12816154 >Anonymous 12/21/14(Sun)07:47:38 No.12816154 [Reply]▶>>12817398 >I really want to give up learning Japanese Don't give up faggot, learning a foreign language is one of the most wonderful experiences you can have, don't deny yourself that pleasure
Start here, read it all the way down, even if it says Advanced it still won't be enough for you to understand all everyday sentences correctly http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar
Keep going with this, reading all the way down to Advanced-I is sufficient http://www.imabi.net/
Various lookup guides for grammar and such, make sure to read them through http://www.jgram.org/ (in case you can't keep up with IMABI's just study the grammar points here) http://web.archive.org/web/1/http://jiten.clanteam.com/ (full transcript of the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar volumes) http://www.mediafire.com/download/dckt6ix32l93f35/fora.pdf (you'd better print this cheatsheet somewhere) http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/skills/grammar/ (the site also contains audio files and JLPT test sheets as well, the grammar usage section is particularly useful)
The rest: http://amaterasu.tindabox.net/guide/ http://thejapanesepage.com/grammar.htm
Nice site to learn vocabulary, online flashcards so you can review them everywhere without installing useless programs http://www.manythings.org/japanese/ Make sure to study the daily kanji list at least up until level 5 http://www.manythings.org/japanese/daily/
I'm not suggesting any specific Anki deck, but kanji consist of a phonetic and semantic part which helps a lot in guessing the on-yomi (pseudo-Chinese reading) so try it and learn the patterns, it'll make learning kanji easier https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2079428463
KanjiDamage a shit, but since you can use many kanji to represent the same native Japanese word, read this. It'll save you up time learning kun-yomi and clear a lot of things up. http://kanjidamage.com/appendix/dupes
Online dictionaries just in case: http://jisho.org/ http://tangorin.com/
Other web utilities, pretty limited usage but help sometimes: http://www.hiragana.jp/en/ (injects furigana over kanji) http://www.rikai.com/perl/Home.pl (kanji reading on mouseover)
I've been trying off and on for four or five years now. I still haven't made much progress as I can't even read manga like Yotsuba. When studying I can't get a grasp on when I should move on to the next page, or if I actually understood what I read. Like, I kind of wonder how other anons study and how they practice. I know some people write down sentences about things they like, but I have zero creative drive and I spend a while even trying to figure out what I want to write. It's kind of sad seeing other people quickly grasping things while I'm still stuck at grammar. ;_;
>>12818112 the most important thing is repetition. even if you only understand 30% of a page the first time you read it, if you go back and read it again later you should be able to understand it better.
as for practice try translating random things you say throughout the day. like asking where something is at the store or something you posted on /jp/
>>12819359 I feel the same way. Back when I took German for instance in high school I could read well with the help of a dictionary but listening murdered me. Japanese will probably be the same way once I get good enough to read.
How frustrated should I be about the fact that I have no idea what anyone's talking about like 70% of the time on twitter? Even after looking up the kanji i'm not familiar with, there's always so much shit that I just don't get at all. I just finished up my 3rd semester at uni so i don't consider myself a master of the language or anything but...is it this hard for everyone else this far in?
Kek'd, have fun wasting your time on useless languages my friends. You'd be better off just dropping such a useless language and learning something useful.
>>12818623 If you speak to other people plenty, you'll get used to forming sentences and it will help when writing fluidly and coherently.
>>12818520 You learn by socializing, imageboards are an alright way. Languages are a way to communicate and be social with others. Its no surprise that shut-in NEETs are having trouble learning while being isolated. It doesnt help that the best places to chat with others like 2chan, block foreigners.
This thread makes me feel a little better knowing I'm not the only one who struggles to learn Japanese. Whenever I look through DJT threads I always see people talking about how great their progress is going and it gets me down. Sad thing is I know it's completely my fault, if I were to put some more effort into it I'm sure I could do well with Japanese. I'm just a lazy neet.
>>12816154 I started 6 years ago, just watching anime and read some grammar related stuff, now I can watch anime without subtitles (excluding sci-fi)... But reading/writing sucks... I translate some random stuff on the web, so now can read hiragana/katakana but kanji....
I started about 5 years ago and went through the whole self teaching process. Gave up on studying about 2 years ago and just stuck trying to read stuff on my own now without daily boring flash card reps. Still can't really say I understand 70% of what's going on or being said, but I just keep at it and hope the learning process happens subconsciously and in a few years understanding will come naturally.
I have a question /jp/. Would reading non translated manga help me learn anything? >Already know harigana and some katakana but don't know a rat's ass about kanji. So is it a good idea to read manga in japanese or will it fuck up my learning?
Manga's too advanced based on what you described. You're better off picking up genki and working through it first. If things like kana are your measurement (rather than "I know て form and た form and how to string verbs together with たり", etc) Then you don't know enough Japanese to even attempt to understand what's going on in a manga.
Also don't bother trying to read TLs as a way to 'learn', a good TL will take many liberties from the underlying text to properly convey spirit and ideas (e.g. Grisaia). You may, at best, pick up a few words and some connotations, but you're better off studying other ways first.
>>12816154 why? it is honestly so easy. I became fluent in 2 years. I am on year 5 of learning now and it is now natural to me like I have been speaking Japanese all my life. I can enjoy animes and I read 2ch matome sites daily and watch comedy programs. Other than that I still work a shit job though cause I never went to college
Native speaker here. I was taught both Japanese and English by my parents from age 0, in fact I learned Japanese first and had trouble communicating with others in American kindergarten because my English wasn't so good at the time.
So tell me /jp/, how hard is it to learn Japanese at whatever age you all are? Is it rewarding enough? It feels damn good to watch anime or play games or read manga without waiting for lazy translators, right?
>>12823934 I'm in my mid- to late twenties, though I've been studying Japanese for a while. It's not too hard, but getting some of the less-commonly used grammar and vocab to stick is a bit of a challenge. I'd say it's been very rewarding as it has gotten me to Japan and married.
>>12823934 Not very hard in the cognitive sense. I studied some basic grammar, vocabulary and am almost finished with RTK and I have made surprising gains from simply reading ero doujinshi raws and listening carefully to Japanese radio. I expect several more leaps from Genki, Tae-Kim and Imabi. Obviously I am very far off from really understanding the language but I'm definitely advancing.
It's irritatingly hard in the sense that it requires discipline. I have doubted many times.
>>12823934 It takes a reasonable amount of work (say, comparable to learning calculus) to get to the point where you can start reading stuff. Mainly it just takes a lot of patience.
From then, it takes almost no work but a shitload of time to be able to read/listen at a near-native level. I say almost no work because you don't really have to do anything that isn't fun, and it becomes relaxing.
>>12823934 really not that hard if you have fun with it. I've been studying japanese for about 9 months now, at first I did the whole Anki thing but I didn't really like it and it didn't really work for me. so with really shitty vocabulary and a really basic understanding of the grammar I just started reading a shit ton of manga.
after that I just read a few 40 hours vn's and I'm starting to really get a feel for it.
>>12826018 It has nothing to do with that. I took a brief glance - later, if he doesn't take it down, I'll take a closer look but right now I'm not really in a place where I can look too closely at a rape doujinshi sample.
What happened is that the author put out a rape book where Suzuya (the Kantai Collection personification of the WWII-era heavy cruiser Suzuya) gets raped by a bunch of Chinese people in a contemporary setting. After the rape, Suzuya finds herself being taken care of by a pro-Japanese Chinese citizen and there's a bit of negative commentary on China and Chinese people (Tiananmen rears its ugly head at some point). This gets translated into Chinese (there are a shit ton of Chinese Kancolle fans in both Taiwan and China) and ignites an incredible shitstorm because Japanese-Chinese relationships are a whole THING. Mixing in the Sino-Japanese war and rape can't help. The whole thing blows up on the Chinese internet and spills onto his comment page, I'm assuming it's full of flames and death threats and the usual Asia-political banter.
The author's message essentially says "thank you for the comments, the book will not be released, there's nothing I can do about the fact that it's circulating in translation but I will take down the Japanese versions of the manga in a few days." Also a note that he can't moderate that many comments through translation software and that some Chinese people have been relatively supportive of him.
Honestly, it's pretty fucking funny. I always suspected that Kancolle might precipitate an international incident sometime, the premise is just so... touchy.
>>12823934 Grammar isn't too bad, but I have a natural gift for languages and learn grammar way faster than normal people.
Now, the thing that kills me is Kanji. I just...fuck kanji. Memorizing them all is hell. I got Hiragana down perfectly and nearly have Katakana down perfectly but Kanji is just a gigantic block for me. I can remember a very small few of them like 食，見、花、大、犬、猫, and others, but everything else just falls out of my head.
So those of you that read VNs how do you go about translating stuff you don't understand, exactly?
>>12821326 >>12822440 Good to know, it's not just me then. It kind of makes me wonder how difficult it is for japanese people to understand english speakers on twitter. It's not rare for them to use weird internet slang and I can't that say I know any japanese internet slang.
I don't get all the people saying they only learnt 'some' katakana. Surely you'd want to be able to read and write the basic phonetic alphabets before going onto anything else? It took about two months of pure repetition but I can read and write both with ease now, I feel like I have a foundation to start from and the sense of progress is reassuring. Two months ago I literally could not have read a single character. I consider myself to be pretty dumb so it's gotta be even easier for most people.
I currently try and write all the hiragana and katakana and listen to some pimsleur recordings everyday. I still haven't worked out a structured approach to learning kanji, so I'm just starting by learning and getting familiar with all the radicals.
>>12823110 yes, self taught I read remembering the kanji, then I did self-immersion. I did not practice speaking Japanese for a whole year. It was all reading and listening and writing kanji. Very easy just requires some effort on your part.
>>12823747 I mention that because I can watch as just a normal part of my life now. I read wiki articles, news, etc in Japanese too. I've had job offers too for my Japanese skills(even without a degree) for Japanese speaking jobs.
>>12826900 >I think it might be normal because it's like that for me as well. Not just with Kanji but with other things as well Of course its normal. That's the whole point of (spaced or whatever) repetition, you keep doing it until it sticks.
I have awful English pronouncation as it is, and I can't for the heck of me figure out the difference between tsu and su. They say to put your tongue at the tip of your mouth and curl your tongue and say sue. But I seriously cannot hear a difference.
>>12826949 If you want to try and force it to find out where your tongue should be, say "su" a bunch, feel how your tongue curls up and doesn't touch your mouth. Changing to "tsu" is very similar, but moving your tongue forward just a bit so that it touches your teeth. From another angle, if you can just make "ts" noises you're already 80% of the way there, since it's really just "ts" while vocalizing.
>>12830230 If you learn grammar but not katakana you can read 75% of stuff out there, but if you know katakana and not grammar you can't read shit. (Okay, you can get the signs, names, and loanwords but that still isn't shit.)
>>12830074 It was tougher for me too. Until you're about 85-90% comfortable with katakana, only dip your toes in grammar imo. Learning some common vocab helps a lot as well. Like that other guy said, grammar is infinitely more useful, BUT you'll spend years learning grammar. Katakana should only take a few weeks at most and you'll be mostly done forever.
>>12831425 Learning Kanji on its own isn't really that important though. You should really try core2k again and stop by /djt/ on /a/ man. They give good advice. I really don't want to see you doing it wrong
I've just finished learning Kana and I'm about to move on to Kanji. I'm thinking about starting with either Genki or RTK, but I'm worried that RTK only gives mnemonics for the meanings and that it will be awkward trying to implement the readings and contexts afterward. Can anyone recommend starting with RTK?
>>12818112 It's all up to the person I guess. I haven't actively tried to learn Japanese that much, it's just a pain honestly, I just paid attention while watching anime and learned to understand it. If you hear the same words over and over then they'll stick and with any agglutinative language if you remember the particles you pretty much know the grammar as well. After that I learned hiragana and katakana, there's not much to it you spend a couple hours memorising and there you have it. At this point I can read some kanji maybe some hundred but I mostly just use ith for vns and kanjitomo for lns. If it grows on me over the years and manage to learn more kanji then good but if not then I don't really care I can already read pretty much anything I want.
>>12832815 I guess it's not bad to get used to looking at kanji, but there's no way in hell I'd learn more than a 100 kanji with anki. It depends on how quick you learn I guess, but I doubt you'd be 2000+ kanji with 2 months. And you kinda need that with lns. I mean if you can read this with 2 months of anki then props to you. Manga with furigana are good though.
>>12826871 >I just want to help translate things. Do you really? Once you learn Japanese, you'd rather just enjoy all the new media you have access to than waste huge amounts of time making substandard translations for dumb, unappreciative plebs.
Seriously? I find that most of the time you CAN tell what they mean by the Kanji. Granted, not ALL can but usually you can. Way more than the actual words, too.
Take a look at 来年 and 今年. Both involve the kanji for year. However, in 来年 the last kanji is pronounced nen. In 今年, it's pronounced toshi.
Just looking at the words in Romanji or hiragana, you probably wouldn't tell they were related. But thanks to the kanji you can work it out through recognition that they really mean (Come-Year) and (Now-Year).
Kanji is the SHIT even if it can be retarded sometimes.
Still, doesn't change the fact that 今年 will ALWAYS mean this year, regardless of how its pronounced. I could have gone with the different student examples too but that was more typing than I was willing to put in.
>>1283437 14. What can you find (dead object) in ***'s house? How many are there? 15. Same as 14, but living object. However, I'm not too sure about nanbiki. I think nanbiki means "how many" for small animals (someone correct me if I'm wrong) 17 & 18. I think the second part is "what kind of city was it?" So basically it's asking if you can describe that place with another adjective.
20. I'm not too sure either, but here's my guess on what they are asking. 20-1. Who did you go with? 20-2. What did you eat (probably with that person mentioned in first part) 20-3. How was it?
>>12834379 >＊＊さんの うちに なにが ありますか。 What (object) is in your house? (It wants you to answer in the form of "There is/are a window/desk/TV/etc.)" >いくつ ありますか。 How many of them are there? (Asking about the previous object)
>＊＊さんの うちに なにが いますか。 Very similar to the previous question, but the point here is that the verb has changed to indicate a living creature, such as a pet. >なんびき いますか。 Again, how many (of x animal) are there?
>きょうは なにか たべましたか。 The なにか means "something", so this is a yes/no question. >なにを たべましたか。 This one is asking what you ate.
>ロングビーチは おおきい ですか。 Yes/No question. Your answer looks okay, but I'd put a comma after the はい instead of a period. Then, >どんな まち ですか。 The どんな is asking "what kind of", so you should describe the city (is it boring, exciting, warm, cold, etc.).
>(your hometown)は しずか ですか。 Again, yes/no question, so I'd keep the first bit as simple as possible (はい、しずか です。 or いいえ、しずか では ありません。). >どんな まち ですか。 Again, it's asking what kind of town your hometown is.
>こんしゅう なにを しましたか？ Asking about what you did this past week. >どこに いきましたか。 どこ is "where", so...
>だれと いきましたか。 だれ is "who/whom", and putting と after a person means "with ~", so "With whom did you go?" (referring to your answer to 19). >なにを たべましたか。 This one is also referring to the place that you talked about in 19. >どう でしたか。 どう means "how", and this one is again referring to the place in 19. Your answer for this one could be as simple as "It was fun" or "It was crowded" or something.
>>だれと いきましたか。 >だれ is "who/whom", and putting と after a person means "with ~", so "With whom did you go?" (referring to your answer to 19). so how can you tell the diffrence when someone says "so you were with chad and who" because と could be "and" or "also" and now i learned from you that と could be used "with someone" as well heres just an idea i know will be wrong but would it be あなたのとと (word for together)ました
>(dead object) kek but can you really use that for an a courpse (even if it is extreamly rude)
>>ロングビーチは おおきい ですか。 >Yes/No question. Your answer looks okay, but I'd put a comma after the はい instead of a period. Then, >>どんな まち ですか。 >The どんな is asking "what kind of", so you should describe the city (is it boring, exciting, warm, cold, etc.). >>(your hometown)は しずか ですか。 >Again, yes/no question, so I'd keep the first bit as simple as possible (はい、しずか です。 or いいえ、しずか では ありません。). >>どんな まち ですか。 >Again, it's asking what kind of town your hometown is. stupid question really but i live in the same city (ロングビーチ) should i put something similar it seams lazy but its hard for a general idea for a city maybe i can say its きれい or something
also i tend to awnser the first question then the second one as two diffrent sentences although do people question like in the worksheet or is it just waterdown so we (my class) dont get confused (beginners class)
thanks alot for the help i really appreciate how helpfull you guys and all of /jp/ really is even.if so lewd
>>12834799 >so how can you tell the diffrence when someone says "so you were with chad and who" because と could be "and" or "also" Not sure if I understand your question properly or not, but as in English, you don't have to put "with" twice - so the Japanese would be similar.
>Whom were you with (along with Chad)? >チャッドと だれと いましたか。 or >チャッドの ほかに だれと いましたか。 (Whom were you with other than Chad?)
>but can you really use that for an a courpse (even if it is extreamly rude) It is rude, but yes, it can be used when referring to a corpse (and is used as such in detective dramas and the like).
>i live in the same city (ロングビーチ) should i put something similar I would put something different - it shows you're making an effort in your class.
>do people question like in the worksheet or is it just waterdown so we (my class) dont get confused (beginners class) A bit of both. But at your level, you should take each question one at a time.
>>12833262 I don't know, looking at that 好奇心 being "like strange heart", meaning curiousity and 専門 "mainly gate" meaning specialty. Some of the simple ones you can tell but generally anything slightly advanced is just pretty much impossible to figure out even if they're logical. What's worth remembering is stuff like 心 being -shin in compound words and 的 being -teki.
>>12833206 >You're not going to be able to guess the meaning just based on the kanji either 90% of the time
You know you're talking to a beginner when...
To be fair, it's often hard to grasp what kanji truly means before going through its compounds first. And you need to understand the concepts behind words to recognize them, that's got to be a huge obstacle for some.
>>12834986 I don't know what the gate is doing there, but 専 means specialization in the first place (it's "mainly" in the same sense as "maining" a character from the game's roster). And come on, what exactly is hard to understand about a heart fond of the strange? (It's really no different from fairly straightforward terms like 愛国心.)
>>12835066 Hmm maybe I don't know. Those examples don't feel like they help much if おしなべて劇の批評は好評だった means the same thing and doesn't make it general play or something then fair enough. Because in the example it's obvious that it was generally liked but if it's at the start of the sentence then I don't know if it works the same way.
>>12835062 Think of it this way: て is a continuative verb ending, it refers you to the next verb for more specifics or information. If it was meant to refer directly to the following noun, it'd be something finalizing like る or た instead, perhaps even nominalized with の.
This remains true even if the original verb is no longer functional outside of this set expression. Because why wouldn't it?
>>12835106 Ah you mean to look at naraberu as the verb, I guess. I'm still not sure though you wouldn't say tabete so mochi wo kudasai so why would you say oshinabete koukishin ni ugoku not koukishin ni oshinabete ugoku.
>>12835274 I meant to say sono, so you wouldn't say tabete sono mochi wo kudasai instead of sono mochi wo tabete kudasai. But whatever. Uhh I'll believe if you say so, I'm still not sure why it's placed like that.
>>12835286 Ah, well the verb should come at the end regardless, unless you pull one of these: たべてください、そのもちを.
As long as you keep the basic structure of S-O-V, you can mess with the other bits of grammar quite a bit and still have it mean the same thing. English is much more dependent on word order than Japanese is because Japanese has particles and whatnot that act as obvious markers for the parts of speech.
I asked my Japanese husband just now, and he agreed that it sounds better to put おしなべて at the beginning (though he can't explain why). I think it's one of those things that you have to get a feel for...
>>12835274 >>12835301 >>12835301 おしなべて is actually an adverb, but it can be recognized as a conjunctive form of a verb おしなべる. (Note:this verb does not exist or is hardly used) So the sentence like 好奇心におしなべて〜 gives an funny impression that curiosity is doing "おしなべる". If it is at the beginning, no subject can be found, then ,readers clearly recognize it as an adverb.
>>12835781 >As we mentioned above, language is too varied to be easily described or classified. The analysis offered here is not presented as absolute or definitive, but it can perhaps serve as a framework for further analysis and investigation. Umm. >>12835786 I dunno, the sounds always seemed pretty easy for me, maybe for English speakers it's weirder. If you ever heard Chinese though Japanese sounds are heaven. The grammar always just seemed very straightforward to me but my native has like over 20 suffixes and particles so I guess Japanese is a stroll in comparsion.
This shit makes absolutely no sense. I'm fine with kanji and all the different readings, but the grammar just kills me. It's so frustrating when even though I know all the words in a sentence I still have no idea what it's trying to say. Most of the time it's like a guessing game or a puzzle that takes an hour to figure out the meaning of a single sentence when I already know all the words on their own. Single words are fine but when it comes to long sentences, I'm lost.
And that's just reading, don't get me started on speech. They're talking so fast most of the time I can't even tell where one word ends and another one begins.
And trying to construct sentences by myself? Hah, forget it.
At this point I feel like the only way for me to learn it is to kill myself and hope I get reborn as Japanese.
>>12835921 It's just suffixes, if you've learned german or latin before getting a feeling for it shouldn't be that hard. For the speech, I don't know. Watch more anime or something, there are radio shows and stuff too. Kamiya's is generally pretty funny too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDcJfpleCqs
>>12835942 Well I don't think you'd come across stuff that's more difficult than this for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojtMxFCULuk If you want to be superfluent in jap though then just go and move to japan there's no better way of learning everyday speech other than hearing it every day.
>>12835979 The anchorman or whatever speaks pretty fast but most of the stuff he says is just filler sentences, like introducing people and talking about the event. Past that it's not hard to understand what they say.
>>12816154 I feel your pain. It's not always the words either. It's usually context. Fuck, I understand every word in this sentence, but I have no idea what's going on: はにーががんばってる以上俺もこー期待に答えてあれがそれするみたいな感じで。
>>12836829 >I don't know if there's any other language where even if you understand all of the words you still have no idea what it means. No. Chinese: 不 = no 小 = small. 心 = heart Then you come across 不小心, and you're like "what the fuck I know all the words, but no small heart no make sense" Until you realize 不小心 is a set phrase meaning "accident," but you didn't know because you were too lazy to learn the vocabulary.
I don't know what the Jap in >>12836704 says though.
>Take Japanese in University for two years >After a lot of effort, I can finally make it through Yotsuba&
>Take Chinese for five months with same effort >Already finished Ender's Game in Chinese, with little dictionary lookup for characters
I am beginning to think that Japanese is just a hard language if you did not grow up with it. All the middling, esoteric annoyances in Japanese just do not pop up in Chinese, and the characters seem to follow a more concise, logical connection between one another than Japanese.
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