>>55069519 >8th largest economy in the world >G8 member, NATO member >globally renowned cuisine, literature, arts, music >rich history How exactly do you figure Italy went wrong? Even per capita they're richer than NZ
Italian maritime republics got rekt by mercantilism. So industrialisation was hurried in each Italian state in a very asymmetric way. The Eternal Geonese and the Eternal Venetian pushed their merchant ways and drew workers from the South while accumulating wealth in the North. This only added to even more disparity and underdevelopment in the South. Do this for 200 years and people will end up voting for Berlusconi three times.
>>55070491 You don't know shit. Maritime republics were long gone before the industrial revolution hit. Problem was that everyone was at war against each other, and didn't think twice to ally to a foreign nation. That's why every century either had French, Spanish, or Austrian domination. Then the Englishmen allowed us to unify.
>>55069519 >Post WWII labor movement/good governance in the north gets counteracted by US interference in the local politics and half the country gets bogged down in corrupt bullshit and asia tier labor practices in the south + some goofy bullshit from the vatican = country cant do shit because of how fucked up half of it is Welcome to Earth.
>>55069519 Shift of major centers of trade from Mediterranean to Atlantic. Internal fight that facilitated foreign conquerors. Foreign dominators who didn't care much about developping their domains in Italy. Alps hindering the ways of communication and trade with main cultural and trade centers in the rest of Europe.
>>55071158 I agree with what you said but Im not sure how it invalidates my post, its objectively true that the US intervened in post WWII italian politics and basically handed the government over to conservative elements from the far more corrupt south of italy for 2 or 3 decades. That political turn left Italy in the hands of the least able to govern and the least interested in governing well, while the North which had strong labor and good governance practices was politically sidelined and unable to bring government that actually governed for the benefit of Italian citizens.
The south isnt too heavy for the north to carry, but its politics is. Italy was made into a shadow of what it could have been just so NATO could have a big peninsula in the Mediterranean to project power from.
>>55071570 This is true, I don't know why any other Italian would want to debate. Gladio was strong here, and mafia was one of the main anti-commie weapons used in the south. And this had all began already with the ally invasion of Sicily, where the Americans already started making agreements with the locals.
>>55072734 >I cant actually refute anything you say so Ill just pretend you are wrong in the hopes that I can save face Ok anon. You could also just man up and change your worldview though, just a thought.
Just a start, Im not going to look up specific articles or books when youre probably not going to even read this. The US was influencing the elections post WWII directly through money, forged documents/letters, right up to possible false flag attacks to make the socialists/communists that made up the bulk of the north's political community.
In addition to this there was a wider NATO covert force in Italy (also in a number of other European nations) that also influenced a number of things in post war Italy, specifically hamstringing the local left leaning political parties, since there wasnt much Russian involvement for them to counter to speak of.
But keep thinking your politics weren't hijacked by external forces, for whatever reason. Its no skin off my back.
>>55073517 And I want to make this clear that it doesnt mean I think socialist/communist governments are magically better or even that a government for Italy based on the post war socialists would do better, its just that theres a good chance it would have been better for Italy given the different politics in Italy at the time if the socialists had won.
>>55073517 I'm not denying that USA influenced that, this is a well known fact, because, you know, they teach Italian history in Italian schools. The bullshit is that USA favored politicans from the South and they were corrupted. The only true thing is that DC was more popular in the South and Socialists in the North, but this doesn't translate to DC Southerners politicans and Socialist Northerners politicians.
>>55073958 Like I said there were DC northerners, but the corrupting influence of the mafia and others comes from the South, and was encouraged by the US pretty enthusiastically since the mafia was willing to act against socialist/communist groups, and sometimes unintentionally since during the US invasion the US basically wiped the political slate clean (similar to the second Iraq invasion) which left a political vacuum that was filled by mafia once politics started back up again.
Mafia members were murdering communists and socialists in Sicily by 47/48 to prevent local land reform, and this kind of corruption/violence is the kind of thing Im talking about. The ties between landowners/conservative elements to mafia that the US invasion let blossom because of the power vacuum of removing the fascists from power led to a situation in the south where violence and corruption was comparatively widespread, and that corruption and violence was eagerly co-opted by the United States which was very interested in preventing any kind of socialist/communist government from forming in Italy that might potentially be sympathetic to the Soviets.
While the socialists/communists werent exactly saints themselves (though the extent to which they were not saints is in doubt since alot of the shenanigans perpetrated by them were false flags/forgeries/etc), they were much more likely to play by the rules than the DCs at the time, and they were much more interested in governing Italy for everyone's benefit instead of governing it to maintain the status quo to defend the interests of the current power holders and wealthy.
>>55075117 Im not sure they were linked explicitly to the mafia, but compared to the socialists and communists of the time they were corrupt. Corrupt does not necessarily mean mafia (though Im sure they had some dealings, it just wasnt a hard relationship).
However, I have no doubt the DCs were involved repeatedly with mafia corruption over the years to greater or lesser extent just from the situation, the dovetailing interests early on, and the constant investigations and associations about DC involvement with mafia/corruption.
>>55075759 >Im not sure they were linked explicitly to the mafia, but compared to the socialists and communists of the time they were corrupt. Corrupt does not necessarily mean mafia (though Im sure they had some dealings, it just wasnt a hard relationship). Yeah, then prove that their corruption somewhat comes from the South as you said before.
>However, I have no doubt the DCs were involved repeatedly with mafia corruption over the years to greater or lesser extent just from the situation, the dovetailing interests early on, and the constant investigations and associations about DC involvement with mafia/corruption. That's why I said "early", we're talking about the first decades after WWII, right? When the USA had some influence.
>>55075907 >mafia based in the south >DCs power base based in the south Its from the south.
Im not sure what kind of proof you want.
>That's why I said "early", we're talking about the first decades after WWII, right? When the USA had some influence. The DCs have been corrupt for their entire existance, and mafia's influence has been minimized since the late 40's/early 50's during the post invasion destabilization, the US has had a strong influence int he region until the early 90's (if you believe in unicorns), the reality is they probably exert a strong influence still today.
And again I never said the DC was explicitly linked with the mafia, their interests were strongly aligned though, and I dont have much doubt that they worked together in many cases (even if unintentionally) to change the political landscape of post-war Italy.
Corruption was partly from DC, partly from Mafia, partly from large landowners, but I didnt ever mean to imply they were all the same thing or working closely together. But they all did contribute to a general culture of corruption in the south.
>>55077484 >Do you contest that the DC's power base is in the south? This is true only in the sense that most of its votes came from the South. That's fucking it. It doesn't mean that, if DC was corrupted, that was because of the South. The South just voted them more than the North.
>>55077636 But both the americans and brits had much larger empires than the romans, and the americans are virtually unopposed in their hegemony over the world, while the romans were constantly contested by large empires and external threats (real ones, not muh terrirsts ones that the US likes to cry about)
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