Brit bong Here.
Freelancer not tied down by work location, thinking of moving to Netherlands and renting a room or small apartment. Seems like a nicer place in general and its not so far from England. Specifically Groningen because I love cycling.
>Any UK > Europe expats willing to share their experience?
>Is learning the language before I move a must or am I likely to find a landlord who speaks English?
>Is learning the language before I move a must or am I likely to find a landlord who speaks English?
In the politest possible way, learning dutch is completely pointless. They all speak English and most of the time to a better level than actual Brits and yanks.
I personally wouldn't pick the Netherlands, I find it rather dull, again I sound like a cunt but it's just my opinion. France and even to an extent Germany have a lot more going on and don't feel as sterile as the Netherlands. Although, you would absolutely need to learn French or German if you were there for an extended period.
>Specifically Groningen because I love cycling.
You can cycle pretty well everywhere tbqh, and some places in Groningen have earthquakes because of the gas extraction.
I don't know what kind of person you are, but you're probably better off in Amsterdam or Utrecht.
Everyone speaks English, so no point in learning the language unless you want to fit into a small community in the countryside for instance.
I forget. Something like Adult artist
>You can cycle pretty well everywhere tbqh, and some places in Groningen have earthquakes because of the gas extraction.
Blimey, earthquakes huh
So the whole country's infrastructure is pretty good for cycling, yea?
>Everyone speaks English, so no point in learning the language unless you want to fit into a small community in the countryside for instance.
Nice, yea I'll aim for a large town or city
>bare in mind taxation is higher in NL. Would suggest you ran your activities through a UK ltd company to simplify things.
Corporate tax here is low if you can pull off a couple of tricks, so that's not a problem.
I just googled it to satisfy my curiosity -- income tax up to €33k is 10.5% then it jumps up to 42%, so you'd want to keep it below that threshold. Withholding tax on dividends is 15%. Corp tax rate is 25% over there VS. 20% here, plus you understand the system / speak the language. Definitely the way to do it.
Still affects the bottom line compared to over here where you can pull up to £10k salary tax free & then dividends on top.. But it's not as bad as I thought.
Maybe a dutch anon knows how you game the system best. Also I think you have to pay something like €50 per month for health insurance over there.
Go for it IMO. NL is a nice cunt.
Speaking of taxation, everyone speaking English is cool but will they print paperwork in English?
I guess I could just go to an English speaking accountant or something. For smaller things I have a Dutch friend in Amsterdam who could help..
Nah lower in the UK m80s. Plus it's an easier to understand system from anons point of view.
Another angle off the top of my head is no hassle of VAT (assuming he's not VAT registered already) which I think all self employed people need to be registered for in NL. The only downside I can see is having to do a tax return in NL as well as the UK, but I think the upside outweighs that, depending on the £ volume of business he's doing.
You'd need to look into it further but that is 100% what I would do. If nothing else because I speak English and understand the system here.
Imagine a tax return there on €xxxx salary per month & €xxxxx dividends per year would be a lot more straight forward than having to put through expenses etc. just as it would here. Plus it means you can move around or back home again without the whole hassle of changing everything (just your personal banking/tax arrangements.)
I wouldn't even worry about currency fluctuations or conversions much either given things like TransferWise etc. exist now. Presume your USD is remitted as Sterling atm?
If it made more sense to go SEPA euro for your business banking facilities - Lithuania offers 'offshore' style banking (i.e. they allow foreign corporations/residents to set up business banking.)
Hope this helps.
I live 1km away from IKEA's headquarters, this country is a tax-haven. The amount of tax he pays is really dependant on how he registers. Depending on the circumstances he'll pay income tax or corporate tax. Seeing as he's making art, which is IP, he can base his company in some off-shore tax haven and then transfer it back to his NL based company tax free.
I'm well aware it is and you have some interesting laws around royalties/IP (I think.) These tax structures tend to be for big multinationals though & I'm 99% sure you have the concept of controlled foreign corporations there, too. i.e. the IBC would be liable for corporation tax in NL if controlled from NL.
You could just lie, use nominee directors and shareholders and pay yourself a "consulting fee" like a lot of people do these days. But honestly I'd never fuck the taxman in a country like NL/UK because it could very easily catch up with you. Plus they cost several thousand to maintain per year compared to a UK ltd company.
People always say you don't need Dutch, but that's complete bull desu.
It's very easy to get into social isolation here, especially if you don't even know how to ask someone out for a drink in Dutch.
This country does not operate in English. It will be ten times more difficult to find a job or do anything in English.
I studied tax law. This country isn't a tax haven due to the height of the taxes. Sure some companies make tax deals but those don't change a thing. It's mostly the fact that people can funnel money between mother and daughter companies without getting taxes that so many businesses register here, so they can ove their assets and profits around internationally and apply the cheapest tax rates they can find in other countries, by placing their daughter companies in countries with low taxes.
There is one tax benefit he could profit from if he has a relatively high income though. If you are an expat who lived more than 150km away from our borders and earns more than a certain amount of money, then he AND his employer can ask togheter that he doesn't have to pay taxes over 30% of his income. This can be done for 10 years. They say to cover his expenses for moving here.
Oh, it's now 8 years.
>>Is learning the language before I move a must or am I likely to find a landlord who speaks English?
You'll find a landlord who speaks English, but learning Dutch is still recommended if you want to settle down in NL.
>In the politest possible way, learning dutch is completely pointless. They all speak English and most of the time to a better level than actual Brits and yanks.
While this is true, only speaking English in the Netherlands is a 100% guaranteed way to never intergrate in Dutch society, never to make real friendships with locals and to basically never fit in.. I think this might be more true in Groningen than the Randstad even, as there are less expats there. In Amsterdam you could just join the British society and never speak to a Dutch person ever (many expats do..), but in Groningen that'll be hard.
If you're self employed and get a decent tax-adviser it's actually not that bad.. Income tax on monthly wages is much worse.
>So the whole country's infrastructure is pretty good for cycling, yea?
>Nice, yea I'll aim for a large town or city
If you want Groningen area, you need to move to Groningen city as it's the only civilisation for miles around..
>I'm well aware it is and you have some interesting laws around royalties/IP (I think.) These tax structures tend to be for big multinationals though
There is no royalty/IP tax in the Netherlands. Never has been, historically.. That's why the Rolling Stones and so many artists are established here: Because royalties are untaxed, so if you publish anything being here is very appealing. No matter how small you are, there simply isn't such a thing as tax on royalties on IP.
>i.e. the IBC would be liable for corporation tax in NL if controlled from NL.
The fucking Dutch Railways are in Ireland to evade tax. Legally.
What are you two asseaters smoking? Not every Dutch person speaks fantastic English, so you'll always miss out being capable to communicate on a higher level with a lot of people.
Well this thread has been enlightening and nothing really sticks out that makes me want to avoid NL. Except actually moving there which will probably be a nightmare unless I can hire a van in the uk to move my stuff and do the can of in NL. And that's after I get my drivers licence
>What are you two asseaters smoking? Not every Dutch person speaks fantastic English, so you'll always miss out being capable to communicate on a higher level with a lot of people.
That's why I said: Either learn Dutch, or realise that you will never intergrate or fit in/will be condemned to some expat club for a social life.. You don't have to learn Dutch for your utilities, but you will need it for a social life in most places.
Did he also mention the fact that Utrecht rivals Amsterdam in all of the following catagories: Housing shortages, housing prices, illegal renting, exploitation of tenants, waiting lists and everything relating to real estate price, including rents and deposits?
Depends on the city. In the cities in the west the landlords are free to pick whoever they like as so many people apply.
But worrying about things outside of your control is silly.
I don't know. All I know is Amsterdam and Utrecht are pretty fucking awful when it comes to finding a place, especially if you lack the funds to buy.
Left=Average price of room per month, right is broken down into average price per m2. Sorted by the city.
Meh. Some neighborhoods or specific flats are bad, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. I grew up in the Randstad, with plenty of North Africans in my current neighborhood.. Nothing to be too afraid of, though if you've got options you might want to avoid the flats that have sattalite-dish antennas on more than 75% of appartments.
Why don't you want to learn Dutch by the way? It's really a cool, nice sounding language + it's Germanic so you wouldn't have to put additional effort in learning a new alphabet or sounds that you aren't familiar with.
>Would the beard be likely to put landlords off there?
Probably not.. If you could be mistaken for a Muslims because you're brown, THAT would be the reson for being refused if anything.. If you don't look brown, they'll probably just think you're a hipster, especially in Utrecht.
Poles are bro. I met quite a few that want to settle here, or already did... They seem to like NL much better than Germany, kek. One said that Germans were cold bastards that lacked a sense of community.
it kind of can. I was looking at Amsterdam a year ago and am members of a shit load of groups on FB.
basically you need to be 'registered' (kind of like council tax/electoral roll) at an address there. Also A LOT of their housing is basically council housing. This means there's a huge grey market of people in effect illegally subletting their council houses where you 'can't register'.
The interesting bit is tho, once your in, if you wanted to be a cunt the Dutch govt then basically support the tenants much more than here. So you can basically go and register, fuck over the person subletting and get yourself into the Dutch system lol.
It seems like a bit of a nightmare tbqh. That and the fact that I found out it's quite difficult to integrate into Dutch society are what put me off (I'm in a similar boat to you workwise)
Fair enough. Also >>54867562 yeah it's the same here. It makes sense you would be taxed there - not entirely convinced exactly what would be taxed where though, given the EU regs and tax treaties. The real advantage in any sense is it makes his life easier if he moves again/for paperwork etc.
>income tax up to €33k is 10.5% then it jumps up to 42%, so you'd want to keep it below that threshold
Why? The increase is only over the part after 33k, so you'll still make more money if you work more. It's not like you make a loss if you work more over a certain tipping point.
>Also I think you have to pay something like €50 per month for health insurance over there.
More like €100,-, yes. Pretty decent.. Also €500,- 'own risk' portion, meaning the first few medical bills you get in a year (if any) are for your own cost.
I like both the Netherlands and Germany, however Germans tend to see down on us without any particular reason.
Oh I see. Remember that the faster you start learning the better.
>basically you need to be 'registered' (kind of like council tax/electoral roll) at an address there.
Yep. To stop illegal rent and tax evasion.
> Also A LOT of their housing is basically council housing.
Yep. The government wants to keep cities and such diverse, so that 'ordinairy folk' can still live in places like Amsterdam...
> This means there's a huge grey market of people in effect illegally subletting their council houses where you 'can't register'.
Yep. 'Ordinairy folk' usually cannot pass up on the opportunity to sub-rent their social max-€710,-/month places for much more than that legal max of €710,-..
>So you can basically go and register, fuck over the person subletting and get yourself into the Dutch system lol.
Depends on the place you live. In my city (Leiden), that could work, but in the municipality I previously lived I had to go by the municipal hall with my mums passport to register someone that was coming to live with us, as she was registered as main-inhabitant.
Because UK corporation tax is 20% & NL is 25% (depending on where that is taxed) as a Dutch resident he would pay a 15% tax on dividends. So it would make more sense above that threshold to pay himself with dividends as opposed to salary.
Here in the UK there is no tax on dividends if you are a basic rate taxpayer. So you pay yourself £10k salary which is tax free, then the rest as dividends. Very tax efficient way of doing things - so I just sort of followed the same logic (although as I said in my first post, I realise tax there is higher and it's a different kettle of fish.)
Fair enough. So he'd be liable for the 25% and not pay corporation tax in the UK then. Either way makes sense ease/accessibility wise from his point of view most likely.
>Is your own risk that high?
No, mine is like €850.. Premium is only abuot €67,- though.
>Mine is like 260 euros a year.
No it isn't.. The legal minimum is €385,-. I was a bit high with my estimation of 500, but it is a bit higher than 260 still.
>Germans tend to see down on us without any particular reason.
Yeah, he mentioned that.. He said that especially people in small towns in Germany would often not be pleased with Polish people, to say the least.. He was very happy that people in our area of the Netherlands where he worked were very friendly and helpful to him.
>Yep. The government wants to keep cities and such diverse, so that 'ordinairy folk' can still live in places like Amsterdam...
It's a sensible policy desu. Housing over here is fucked. Just makes it more difficult for a foreigner like me or OP coming over unfortunately (/fortunately for you!)
>So it would make more sense above that threshold to pay himself with dividends as opposed to salary.
Ah, yeah. In that sense you're right.. I thought you advocated keeping revenue down to avoid even reaching the higher tax bracket.
For small business it's better not to operate from a business with it's own legal personality, as you miss out on tax cuts.
So instead of corporate tax you'd pay regular income tax plus some tax cuts on all your profits.
If you have your own business with it's own legal personality, then you have to pay yourself minimum salary of around 44k euros, from the top of my head. You can pay the rest out in dividends. But you can contact the tax agency and ask them to reduce it to 70% of your business it's income, instead of 44k.
I'm not sure but I believe the break even point where one becomes more profitable than the other tax-wise is around 150k euros a year.
Interesting. Over here it basically makes 0 sense to use anything other than a proper corporate structure, once you're earning enough to pay income tax (above £10k.)
>If you have your own business with it's own legal personality, then you have to pay yourself minimum salary of around 44k euros, from the top of my head. You can pay the rest out in dividends. But you can contact the tax agency and ask them to reduce it to 70% of your business it's income, instead of 44k.
That doesn't apply to a UK company though. Or are you just saying below €44k salary the taxman would treat any dividends as salary (i.e. not at 15%) for tax purposes?
Starting a business with it's own legal personality can be useful for reducing the legal risks (aka only your business can be sued for mistakes you make and they can't touch your private capital), but tax-wise it doesn't make sense.
>Or are you just saying below €44k salary the taxman would treat any dividends as salary (i.e. not at 15%) for tax purposes?
Not that guy, not entirely sure how they do it.. But if you own your own BV (limited liability structure that carries it's own risk), and are 'directeur grootaandeelhouder' (director & large-shareholder) the tax authorities demand you pay yourself at least 70% of what is considered a 'market conform' salary, which would come down to €42.000,- a year with the extra stipulation that you cannot pay yourself less than your best-payed employee.
>. Or are you just saying below €44k salary the taxman would treat any dividends as salary (i.e. not at 15%) for tax purposes?
It's a fictitious salary. So you pay taxes over it regardless if you actually give yourself that salary. But it is negotiable for starters, businesses with low profits and if an employed person wouldn't get such a salary for the same amount of work. Our government wants to avoid people becoming freelancers for tax reasons as those people will miss out on protection from our employment laws.
Interesting. OP clearly needs to talk to a Dutch tax specialist then. I don't see how this salary/dividend issue would affect the UK company, but obviously it might affect how his income is taxed there. Might well make more sense for him just to be 'self employed' in NL rather than my initial idea then, since he doesn't need limited liability for furry porn lol.
Yeah 20/25% on the profits (after salary) before dividends which would be taxed at 15%. Income tax on the salary. It would make sense over here, maybe not there, idk.
Well god damn it, now I really want to move to the Netherlands.
Not the OP, but that's actually my plan in the long term. I'm training to become an interpreter for German and Italian to English.
Switzerland has a lot more immigrants desu.
And the Netherlands has pretty big regions where no foreigners come and nothing ever happens. Everyone who migrates here goes to the west (North Holland, South Holland, Utrecht and against their will to Flevoland and Zeeland).
Switzerland left the schengen cause they got so many immigrants. The country itself is made up out of different national groups to (as in germanic, italian, french etc)
I dont mean to shittalk Switzerland though, its a great country but theyre passing a law for a garuanteed income for all citizens, immigrating might be next to impossible.
If OP is worried about immigrants, the east of the country is super homogenous and since he's a self employed digital artist, he should be able to enjoy the lower costs of living while not being hampered by the reduced employment oppertunities.
Its a compact country and its managable to reach anything in the country in a timely manner. Given how Switzerland is mountainous I imagine it might be more difficult to get around.
Honestly its probbably best to go on holiday to the places hes considering to settle down at first, get familliar with how well received foreigners are, the mastery of english, etc. and see how hard it would be to actually stay there for a prolonged period of time and what that means as far as the laws go. THEN make a decision.
I got forced to learn French and German by the high school Nazi's. I suck at both because we barely have any ways to immerse ourselves in it. But people who go on vacation to France a lot tend to speak French. And people who live near the German border do in fact speak German. Because most of us do have a basic foundation that makes learning it later in life easier.
>The fucker is going to be obsolete just like an assembly line worker
You realise language is constantly changing, right? As good as digital language translation may become, it simply will not be a suitable alternative to a real person, at least not in our lifetime.
Yeah, I guess like how people thought phones and video conferencing were going to make face to face meetings obsolete, meaning most people would work from home and our cities would be empty.
So they can grow Tracheas in a lab but translating is too hard.
>meaning most people would work from home
yeah all those garbage men, builders, assembly line workers working from home. I work from home and 2 of my friend work from home.
Yes, because tracheas don't fucking change. Languages are constantly adapting, adding in new phrases, terms, and slang that simply doesn't translate straight from one language to another.
Human speech (depending on the language) allows a huge amount of freedom for creativity when expressing yourself, and computers simply don't cope well with human creativity.
Adding a new phrase for 10 dudes banging your mom every week is not an evolution of language.
this nigga knew more slang than you
For the Britbong:
De = the
arbeid = work = hitler
mark = market
voor = for
fiscalisten = people who work with fiscal things
is = is
één = one
van = of
de = the
beste = best
van = of
alle = all
studies = studies
Dutch is really hard senpai.
Well when that day comes I'll have to kill myself, though I'm taking >>54870272 with me.
I reckon they could cut down a huge amount of the kanji they use. The only reason they use it is to distinguish homophones apart right?
However many words which have kanji don't even have homophones. If they introduced spaces it would also be much easier to tell the words apart from one another (especially if sentences are largely composed of hiragana). So in that case they would only need to use Kanji occasionally.
It's beautiful and everything, but incredibly impractical. It's only a matter of time before they ditch it.
>It's only a matter of time before they ditch it.
That's a delusion, it's an integral part of the culture. Just like Esperanto might be more practical than English for international communication but never took off.
Added bonus is that to naturalize a high degree of language control is required, which is so hard that hardly any lowly educated immigrants are able to get in.
>Added bonus is that to naturalize a high degree of language control is required, which is so hard that hardly any lowly educated immigrants are able to get in.
Kek, I thought about this the other day actually. Well played Japan, well played.
I don't see them ditching it but I wouldn't be surprised if today's youth knows way less kanji's than their parents
Korea really reduced the number of Chinese characters one should learn to make space for other subjects
>It's beautiful and everything, but incredibly impractical
Moron speaking of things he doesn't know.
you fucking idiot, good look remembering thousands of hiragana only words.
Kanji makes it much easier to distinguish and remember things, you clearly have not studied japanese or you're a ''Japanese Language and Culture'' Uni faggot.
Fuck off abo
>but I wouldn't be surprised if today's youth knows way less kanji's than their parents
Young people can only write less, they still know which one to choose on their phones when they input the hiragana
Don't you guys exclusively use Hangul?
I've heard some people say that many young Koreans know little to no Chinese characters at all.
Did I hurt your feelings? :(
Here, have a tissue.
I'm pretty sure roman letters are part of the Japanese writing system. I assume they're taught it in school, although they probably don't practice them a lot so shitty handwriting might be prevalent.
Too simple. They do have a different way of writing them, and the arabic numerals. Like how their "9" starts at the right middle, then makes the loop upwards, and ends with the swing down, while westerners generally start at the bottom and draw it in one move.
Wouldn't be interesting, as I'm Dutch if that wasn't clear already.
You're wrong that romaji are part of the Japanese writing system tbqh >>54871762. They're not normally used in Japanese language, although they do use the arab numerals when they write horizontally.