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Russia Declares "No Such Thing as NATO...
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http://observer.com/2016/02/russia-declares-theres-no-such-thing-as-nato-airspace/

>“NATO airspace? There is no such thing. It’s strange to hear the reports that address us to go to the NATO alliance to clear the situation over the alleged violation because such a notion as ‘NATO airspace’ simply does not exist. It has never existed.”

You can't hide behind your special snowflake clubhouse anymore, NATOfags.

Russian Federation don't play that game.
>>
>>54825629
where is proof that russia is real?
>>
>>54825629
Slavs are double niggers.
>>
>the black sea is a country
Oh, yathzee you retarded mongoloid.
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>>54825629
Russian airspace? There isn't such thing as russian airspace.
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>>54825629
Just because he thinks it doesn't exist doesn't mean he can just freely fly around in it with his bombers.
this is exactly like saying "Russian Crimea? there is no such thing as Russian Crimea, it never existed"
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>>54825629
Airspace of a NATO member is a NATO airspace. What's so hard to understand?
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>>54825629
Ok, now i actually read the article.
>"the 29th of January, another Russian combat airplane violated Turkish—and NATO—airspace,” the State Department’s John Kirby said, echoing word for word his colleague from the Pentagon."

>"Mr. Kirby declined the offer to provide any proof of the Turkey airspace violation by Russian bomber. “It’s not our responsibility to provide proof to the Russians for something they did wrong,” he said to the RT reporter."(that means thry don't have any proof, not even radar or satellite records)

The articles goes on to some russian official saying they won't discuss this with NATO, just with the country that claims violation.
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>>54825995
>It’s not our responsibility to provide proof to the Russians for something they did wrong
Love this approach
>>
Funny how every citizen here doesn't actually care about NATO and Russia's little bitchfights.
Russians do suck shit though so I can understand why NATO doesn't like them by default.
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>>54826314
It literally isn't.
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>>54826738
Does your judicial system also grab random people from the street and makes them prove they're not criminals?
>>
>>54826793
Memes convinced the world that demanding proof is gommunism.
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>>54826793
Their police system can shoot and kill you for literally nothing
>>
>>54825629

They're just arguing semantics, because Russia is like that.

There technically isn't any NATO airspace. NATO is not a sovereign entity.
>>
>>54826982
but in russia every random killing by the regime is entirely justified!
>>
>>54826982
>russian talking about police corruption
top kek m8
you can literally bribe a russian pollice officer with a bottle of vodka
>>
>>54827014
why dont you go back to sucking bbc sven?
Nato consists of many countries, each country has an airpsace, you violate it, you answer for it, thats how the world werks son
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>>54825629
There isn't.
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>>54827036
No, that was 20 years ago. Today they're much more expensive
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>>54827080
Can you explain how there is such a thing as NATO airspace?
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>>54827089
Fuck off back to russia ivan, i dont get these hypocritic russians who live in the west and still cirticize it, if russia is so great why arent you living there?
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>>54827156
he just did
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>>54827165
ITT: everyone is russian or paid by Russia.
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>>54827156
>Can you explain how there is such a thing as NATO airspace?

are you fucking retarded? thats like saying its ok to fuck your sister because there is no such thing as a family
>>
Nothing new here. Russians are always trying to force other countries to deal with their shit bilaterally instead of through alliances or unions since they have more leverage that way.

See kidnapping an estonian to use as a bartering chip for prisoner exchange or threatening to let tens of thousands of shitskins migrants across the finnish/russian border unless funland stops being part of the EU sanctions.

Sasuga mafia state.
>>
>>54827165
Angry much, Abdullah?
>>
>>54826793
I love how Russians expect countries to be very trusting towards their former enemy, as if they aren't spying in the West all the time.
But that's Russian ignorance for you.
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>>54827220
Who even gives a shit about Finland or what it does?
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>>54825982
>Airspace of a NATO member is a NATO airspace.
Airspace of a UN member state is the UN airspace.

Sounds legit.
>>
>>54827199
So is there UN airspace? CSTO airspace? Olympic games airspace?

>>54827208
What the fuck are you saying?
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>>54827262
>We can keep making random accusations because we're majestic like an eagle
Nice logic there
>>
>>54827262
I like how what you said has nothing to do with what Russianon said.
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>>54827328
I was faster >>54827324
>>
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>all of europe would be speaking russian if it wasn't for the US
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>>54827274
Based on the (you) at least one subhuman ryssä seems to care :^)
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>>54827328
Why are you even comparing thoose with nato? this is beyond the average russian damage control levels
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>>54827360
We both know the people already know what Russians are up to.
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>>54825629
>being this delusional
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>>54827386
>all of europe would be speaking russian if it wasn't for the US

not true btw, russia has been defeated by much smaller nations before, theyre shitting themselves in ukraine now too, france alone could annex russia in a month or so
>>
>>54827156

There's no such thing as NATO airspace because isn't a sovereign entity.

Have turkish jets flying over Athens or greek jets flying over Istanbul and see what happens.
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>>54827384
Oh yes. Sad.
>>
>>54827080
>Nato consists of many countries, each country has an airpsace
Is it true that an airplane of any country which is a NATO member can freely fly in the NATO airspace over another NATO member?

I guess they still have to ask for permission.
>>
>>54827396
Are you autistic?

You seem butthurt.

>>54827447
Can you explain how they've been shitting themselves in Ukraine?
From what I see they have about 4,000 sq miles more land now than they did in 2013.
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>>54827447
>the entire russian military is in ukraine
>this is what he believes
>FUCKING FRANCE
>>
>>54827447
I hope you do realize that only Crimea had any value whatsoever in the whole of Ukraine. Donetsk and Lugansk were an unforeseen side-effect
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>>54827396
>someone points how you're wrong
>oh yeah? Well... RUSSIA SUCKS!
kek
>>
>>54827407
Well, these people seem to employ clairvoyants then
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>>54827515
10300 sq miles more 2bh
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>>54827515
>10300 sq miles more 2bh
and this is bigger than The Promised Land of Israel.
>>
>>54827386
It more like
>if it wasn't Boland in 1920
>>
>>54827328
NATO is a military alliance
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>>54827128
Kek. Good one.
>>
>>54827080
Still no NATO airspace in existence, maybe during war when Joint Warfare Centre and other NATO bases take control over the war effort.

But there's no NATO airspace, our jets can't suddenly fly wherever they want over other NATO members airspace.
The Turks are violating Greece's airspace all the time, and is a legitimate problem right now.
They're both NATO members.
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>>54825629
>Notimportanttugal
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>>54827447
>theyre shitting themselves in ukraine now too
Because there's no reason to annex whole Ukraine
>>
>>54827447
almost all of the western countries were ravaged by ww2
if the usa wasn't there the soviets could easily have conquered
>>
>>54827837
USSR was just as wrecked, mate
Literally no one wanted more war
>>
>>54827792
UN is a world organisation.

What is your point?
>>
GO!RUSSIA!GO!
INVADE ALL EUROPA!
>>
>>54827837
This tbqh.
After germany fell there wasn't a single european state that could have stopped the soviet horde. Even finns only managed to hold the tide of subhumans long enough to barter for peace.
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>>54827206
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>>54827910
For what gain, exactly?
>>
>>54827919
>>54827919
>After germany fell there wasn't a single european state that could have stopped the soviet horde

What is switzerland
>>
>>54827953
Nothing.
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>>54828026
Yeah... naaaah
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>>54827447
>this delusion

The US sent some officers from the military to Ukraine to help them train and structure their military against an Russian enemy.
Instead it was the officers that learned how the Russians fight.
The whole VHF specter is jammed 24/7 by the Russians, the main frequency specter most military grade radios in NATO use.
They also bomb anything that even remotely looks like an antenna based on visual or EK scans.

The Russians are a force to be reckoned with.
Those who say otherwise are delusional leftists, or right wing desktop warriors.
Anyone who've served in a NATO country in Europe or America knows this for a fact.
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>>54827964
What's the point of destroying and raping something you can just go around
>>
>>54828125
>russians have radios that jam one specific frequency band...
that was the whole point of your post and based on that absolutely staggering fact you declare everyone who disagrees with you a retard
>>
>>54827447
hope that month isn't between november and march
>>
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>>54828543
>the winter is the sole reason russia hasn't been conquered thousands of times
>>
>>54828613
they have had their asses handed to them by micro-nations during winter though

there is an actual war which they factually lost named after winter too...

the fact that two fucking retards (the french manletolean and adolfo hipster) could not handle the situation only speaks of their low value as leaders.
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>>54828613
valid strategy

how do you explain gallipoli?
>>
>>54828816
how do you explain trudeau
>>
>>54828736
>manletolean
>adolfo hipster
Estonian wit, errybody
>>
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>>54828848
w e e d m a n
>>
>>54828913
IT'S 2016

rip in pepperoni canada
i'll miss you
>>
He doesn't believe what he's saying.

Which is par for the course with Putin, I guess.
>>
>>54828913
why hasn't he legalized it yet?
>>
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>>54827128
How much would you estimate?
>>
Ask Turkey
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>>54829069
Depends on the case. I've heard about bribes in thousands of dollars
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>>54827206
There are a bunch of pro-Kremlin anti-western diaspora living in Western countries who shitpost here desu. Not that it means who he was replying to is Russian.
>>
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Laat time they did this they got TURKED
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>>54829192
>mfw that entire village got bombed back to the stone age
>>
>>54829229
Yea but turkmen rebels are replaceable, blowing up that jet had geopolitical consequences

Russia is will get btfo if they fuck with nato
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>>54829348
They can't make new jets/train new pilots?
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>>54829348
>blowing up that jet had geopolitical consequences
not really
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>>54829389
I think what he's saying is next time it's not going to take stone age retards to shoot down the russian jet
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>>54829456
>an f-16 pilot
>stone age retard
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>>54827515
>Are you autistic?
>You seem butthurt.
If he's autsistic it doesn't change his argument comparing a military alliance to the UN is like comparing a chicken and an apple.
>>
>>54829521
so what exactly was your point earlier about bombing a village
>>
>>54829405
Russia wanted to stop turkey's plans for safe zoning northern syria by having a presence close to the border, turks blow up jet to counter
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>>54827538
>Donetsk and Lugansk were an unforeseen side-effect
It was for seen due to Russian speaking media and an army if Bydlo irregulars who felt confident after Crimea.
>>
NATO collectively disagrees. And because NATO would BTFO of Russia if they ever came to blows I'd say NATO wins
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>>54829570
that all the people that looted the pilot's body are dead
>>
>>54829648
Well he's saying that you're not going to have to deal with looters, the body will likely be disintegrated in seconds or at the very least blown to bits
>>
>>54828413
Actually a frequency specter and a frequency band are two different things.
But yes you're retarded if you think that fact alone isn't something that makes the Russian military a force to be reckoned with, typical desktop warriors.

You can have all the firepower in the world, but if you can't coordinate how to use said firepower it will all become useless.
Russians are masters when it comes to disinformation and information/communication denial.

It must also be noted the fact that Russians so easily can jam radio frequencies and have been able so for many years, one can only imagine what other electronic hardware they can fuck up.
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>>54827953
French cheese and wine comrade.
>>
>>54825629
By foot an armor, we advance russian forces, have no chance They are weaklings and cowards, running away, Tomorrow will be, a brand new day! Don't fear the battle, greet it instead Follow the banner, the black-white & red!
[Waffen-, is marching on We won't give in, untill we've won The warrior spirit never dies And Once again, we will arise]] White men united, together they stood A pan-European brotherhood. Frontfighter spirit, come back again To a new generation of European men. Smash the reds is all I want. Send me to the eastern front!
[[Waffen-, is marching on We won't give in, untill we've won The warrior spirit, never dies And Once again, we will arise]]
Tiger and Panther, go ahead, russia, will soon be dead!
>>
>>54825629
black sea is getting rekt in that map
>>
>>54829755
French wine is still imported, you know
>>
>>54829229
They already bombed/were bombing the shit out if it. Probably one if the reasons the Turks shot the SU-24 down.
>>
>>54829627
I love this meme so much.

Its as if you think NATO has some sort of god defense against Nukes that make all of us completely invulnerable to them.

If NATO went to war with China/Russia everyone would be fucked thanks to handy dandy Mutually Assured Destruction. The only thing that has stopped us from having more world wars.
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>>54829702
back in the beginning of the 90s russians were blocking frequency bands where western radio was being broadcast... it took a man with rudimentary radio-engineering knowledge, a soldering iron and about two beers to build a decoder good enough to listen into and tape broadcasts

your perceived value of their frequency jamming is too high
>>
>>54829817
So they wouldn't cutoff booze, interesting. Side note destroying that cheese was beyond retarded for the govt. They should have given it to the poor or homeless.
>>
>>54825629
funny because last time they tried that their pilots died
>>
>>54830005
>the 90's are comparable to anything Russia or NATO has today
>>
>>54830048
Our government prefers making a point to doing something useful.
>>
>>54830005
In the begging of the 90s drunk Estonians were jamming Russian military frequencies.
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>>54830107
the norwegian anon seems to think that

>>54830129
i know, i still remember the cars with a million antennas roaming around between houses searching for radios
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>>54830107
90s never went away in Estonia
>>
>>54830170
if you prefix 17 to that number you get the reality in which most of russia still lives ;)
>>
>>54830129
>>54830165
That's pretty awesome.
>>
>>54827384
but both of you are stupid
>>
>>54830202
Estonian biting wit strikes back
>>
>>54830129
btw, if you mod a walkie talkie and tune it down from the police frequency you can hear what goes on in large hotels between the workers... viru hotel is pure comedy gold
>>
>>54826793
This is not a judicial system, this is the cold calculus of force.

Rule: don't fly into our airspace
Punishment for breaking said rule: we'll shoot you.

No one needs to prove anything to you, what matters is what the person with the gun decides has occured.
>>
>>54827220
When will you finally join Nato?
>>
>>54827386
>>all of europe would be speaking German if it wasn't for the US
fixed
>>
>>54830395
>Rule: don't fly into our airspace
And how does it apply when there was no airspace breach but there were accusations?
>>
>>54830535
Radars can determine very well if Russians breach the airspace.
>>
>>54830535
It matters not one bit because your plane is still blown the fuck up. All that matters is what Turkey thinks occured. Don't fly so close and maybe they won't think that way next time.

Lesson learned.
>>
>>54830411
Day after sweden joins.
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>>54830676
Meanwhile Sweden says they can't join without Finland joining.
>>
>>54830643
So, we have a nice situation here: There's a rabid dog called Turkey that bites whoever it pleases for no good reason. The dog is dangerous but you can't put it out, because this dog is owned by Unca Sammy who's prone to going apeshit and shooting his gun at anyone he dislikes.
>>
>>54829702
Jamming is risky business if your opponent has home-on-jam weapons. The tactics one uses against one opponent aren't necessarily viable against another.
>>
>>54830859
Yup, welcome to reality. Deal with it. Or don't and get your planes shot again, we're fine with either outcome.
>>
>>54830959
Sure, love. Have a nice Jihad
>>
>>54830794
Then I guess it's time to join up again and show russia why northerners were something to be feared back in the day.
>>
>>54830959
I'm glad people have finally accepted that America and NATO aren't the good guys.
>>
>>54827447
>Better to wear the helmet of a red army soldier than live on a diet of hamburgers in Brooklyn
-Alain de Benoist
>>
>>54830859
>coming from a country that invaded Ukraine
>>
>>54830005
>your perceived value of their frequency jamming is too high

Let's hope that your military leaders aren't as retarded as you are.
Because if I had any power, I would petition to throw Estland out of NATO if that weren't the case.

You think this is cold war era technology, and there's absolutely no way to evolve it and make it more potent.

Also you disregarded my other point I made about communication denial the Russians do.
Bombing the fuck out of anything looking like, or acts like an antenna, please tell me your drunk countrymen from the 90's contingency plan for that kind of action.

It's clear that you have no insight in how wars and military works at all, just stop pretending you have knowledge about it and just shitpost about potatoes and muslims instead
>>
It's fine, US will protect us all.
>>
>>54830959
Please stop playing the hard one on the internet you fat fuck, it's embarrassing. Maybe you should stop watching too much anime.
>>
>>54831112
Are we talking Crimea here (which was pretty awful) or the 'invasion' of eastern Ukraine (which was started by Ukrainians themselves)?
>>
>>54831118
shut the fuck up already you imbecile

you obviously have no fucking clue about how the physical world works and what the limits are to frequency jammers and what a typical antenna looks like
>>
>>54825629
Russian lives? There isn't such thing as Russian lives.
>>
>>54831112
Crimea je Russija

Deal with it Kurvatska
>>
>>54831118
Luckily Russia can't do precision bombing, so no worries about them hitting an antenna. They might hit civilian buildings and kindergartens.
>>
>>54831195
That's how this works irl, it has nothing to do with being hard on the internet.

Reality is if you fly a nuclear capable bomber, into a countries airspace, they will shoot it down. There is no fucking court room they need to go to to prove you were in their airspace. If they feel threatened, they will shoot you.
>>
>>54831118
lel going on a bitchy defense like that just undermines you even more
>>
>>54831110
so deep, wew
>>
>>54829134
>Depends on the case. I've heard about bribes in thousands of dollars

So inflation even effected the bribery system. Nothings reliable anymore.
>>
>>54827328
>>54827324

NATO and UN or GSTO are completely different things.

If you actually knew what NATO was you'd understand why its not hard to believe that it would have controlled airspace over its countries. Its a fucking military defense coalition you stupid shitheads.

>>54827555
>Irrelevant country thinks someone gets BTFO'd
>HAHA YOU'RE WRONG AND MAD.
>>
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>>54831439
He's a Pan-european nationalist and anti-communist but even he recognises there is little worse than being a cucked servant to American Liberal Global domination

Poland is so cucked they don't even care they will be the first sacrifice in America's offensive
>>
>>54831110
>it's cool to be a slave of corrupt muscovite satanists, because Muricans R fat!!!
to think I actually respected him as a thinker
>>
>>54829174
We have many "Russian-Germans" who claim to be Germans suppressed by Russians when they come to Germany...

But Most of them are just like a Christian equivalent of Turks.
And they are extrem Russian-Nationalists, wear Russian uniform (bald+tracksuit+hondacivic with massive optical tuning).


I realy realy hope that Russians fucked them Maiers up realy hard when they were living in Russia.
>>
>>54830881
Which is why jamming is only one of many options Russians have to effectively "jam" our communications.
They have as I mentioned in my first post the ability to also bomb any radio transmission source which is a more permanent way to stop information.

>>54831355
>Luckily Russia can't do precision bombing
Someone weren't awake during the conflict with Georgia

>>54831291
Ok, please tell me how an typical antenna looks like.

Don't worry you can't disappoint me either way, I never expected anything from you either way.
>>
>>54830959
Why americans want to sound like Hollywood all the time? It is cringe-worthy.
>>
>>54831650
>Someone weren't awake during the conflict with Georgia
We were called paranoid by other NATO members back then. Cue the Ukraine conflict and suddenly everyone is saying what we were saying all along.
>>
>>54831650
why do you just keep on posting shit that is embarrassing to read? do you actually get payed for it or something?
>>
>>54831871
>implying Georgians didn't blast Tskhinvali
>>
>>54831650
>They have as I mentioned in my first post the ability to also bomb any radio transmission source which is a more permanent way to stop information.
Not against Nato. Nato has always air superiority.
>>
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>look into thread
>half of flags are estonian
Why?
>>
It's not NATO's airspace as in NATO owning it, it's "their" airspace as in if someone crosses it's NATO's business. Ffs it's not that hard to understand.
>>
>>54831647

Ethnic russian could emigrate only being skilled dev, student, businessman or mail bride.

No, it was YOUR fault. YOU recognized them as germans.
>>
>>54832051
They're pretending to be actual Europeans
>>
Reminder that only redditors hate Russia. Might as well support Sanders.
>>
>>54831802
>Hollywood
No. That's literally what happens irl when you fly nuclear bombers into another country's airspace.
>>
>>54832338
And when you don't as long as the country has America's support
>>
>muh exact dictionary definitions.

Of course.
NATO airspace is what normal thinking people use to refer to "airspace of a state that's part of North Atlantic Treaty Organisation".

In the next thread
>Russia declares "No such Thing as NATO"
>>
>>54831647
Germans unironically think rapefugees better than russians

without a doubt syrians are more european than us
>>
>>54832338
>nuclear bombers
>nuclear
I give one month before americans think the Death Star got into Turkey airspace.
>>
>>54832468
syrians are africans
russians are asians

both not white, both not european
>>
>>54832267
>supporting authoritarianism in 2016.
can we stop this counter-internetculture meme, it's embarrassing now
>>
>>54832476
I'm pretty sure it's nuclear capable. We just don't have any suitable nuclear bombs
>>
>>54832476
Motherfucker those planes CAN carrier nuclear weapons.
>>
>>54831871
Because the cold war started again in 2007, everybody was all happy and getting along up to that point.

But no, the kikes can't have a happy homogenous society so they force conflict where conflict isn't needed. Whether its mass importation of invaders who brazenly claim what they are going to do when they arrive, or the dissolution of traditionalism and the introduction of moral relativism spliced with anti-nationalist suicidal self-hatred.

You had nothing to worry about up until the point when the globalists faggots wanted to stir shit with the Russian and Chinese Economy and seemingly inadvertantly forced a reaction out of them.
>>
>>54832538
>>54832531
> f-16 is a nuclear bomber
calm the fuck down, the statement WAS pathetic, and the american IS being a funny pretentious fatass
>>
>>54832641
The F-16 is a nuclear bomber. Are you implying Russia would allow us to fly ours over Russia whevere we fucking felt like it? Because we know you wouldn't.
>>
>>54832597
Shouldn't Americans be happy Cold War started again?
>>
>>54831917
Because it's not about what's embarrassing to read, but what's facts, and the fact is that you know jack about Russian capabilities in war and like the German here >>54832026 are overconfident in NATO's abilities.
90% of all the military might in NATO isn't even on European soil thanks to our politicians in Europe.
NATO in Europe has no air superiority without USA, the eastern block has no airforce to speak of and rely on the already small airforce from other European NATO countries.

This is something we all should be perfectly clear about, NATO only works as an idea.
It has never been tested, and article 5 is very vague on what constitutes as an response.
Article 5 does not by any means say how much each country shall contribute when article 5 is invoked or how fast the response should be.

Also in a war with Russia, Estonia and most of eastern Europe(including eastern parts of Poland) will be lost seeing as those countries has no capabilities(except Poland) and will be accepted as losses to ensure rest of Europe isn't lost.
>>
>>54832748
>except Poland
Ah, yes. The nuclear hussars
>>
>>54832748
are you foaming all over your body right now?
>>
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>>54832466
>>54832088
point is, airspace violations are dealt nation-to nation, not nation-to-military block. it has been the case for decades, it has been the case all these recent years. when a US plane violates Swedish airspace it's not a NATO issue, when U-2 violated Soviet airspace it wasn't a Warshw pact issue, when Russia violated Estonian airspace the last time, it wasn't a NATO issue, whne Russia violated Turkish airspace a few times just before shootdown, Davutoglu stated that the situation was resolved calmly between the two countries.

Now NATO officials, frustrated as always with having literally nothing to do want to make it seem like they're still useful. It's a non-issue, there's really no such thing as NATO airspace
>>
UK strong

Russia weak

Typhoon and F-35 strong
>>
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>>54832748
>NATO in Europe has no air superiority without USA

IIRC European NATO has a slightly larger airforce than Russia

However, much of the Russian air force is ancient Soviet shit and much of European NATO (the smaller countries) is ancient American shit or Soviet shit

So it comes down to who has the less shit.
>>
>>54832792
No but I think you are since I broke that illusion of yours that NATO is magic, and Estland having a chance against Russia.
I'm grateful for being a part of NATO but I'm being realistic about it's capabilities as a multi-national clusterfuck.

>>54832790
They would be the first country with any real resistance against you.
>>
>>54832748
Understandably we're a buffer zone for Germany/France etc but wouldn't say they can take over in a day or two. They will get innumerable "Chechnyas" on their hand with full-blown guerilla resistance and their economy can't support it. It can only collapse on itself like their Cold War block.
>>
>>54832950
no, you're just being a retard who is very near to breaking his keyboard trying to prove... i don't even know what it is you're trying to prove anymore
>>
>>54832902
>the smaller countries
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33772093
>>
>>54832950
>They would be the first country with any real resistance against you.
I know, it's just a funny mental image

>>54832964
It's a little charitable to compare estonians to chechens
>>
>>54832902
Also, who has better integrated air defense and a variety of hardware
For example, Europe has no strategic airforce, i.e. many Russian military factories are more or less unreacheable with Euro tech
>>
>>54832748
I think you're overestimating Russia. All European Nato members together have more than twice the number of combat aircraft of Russia. And most of them are superior to the Russian equipment in a 1-v-1 comparison. So, yes, Nato has always air superiority. Even without the US.
>>
>>54833083
I was generalising. A few of the smaller countries have a decent air force.

Also the Tornado is neither American nor Soviet, it's ancient but GOOD European shit. Also the Tornado is being replaced by multi-role Typhoons and F-35s.

We are getting 160 Typhoons + 138 F-35s so the RAF is actually expanding AND increasing in quality

>>54833100
Yes, true, but Russia would also find it difficult to penetrate far in European air space. The strongest Euro countries are further from Russia.

Having said that, I've thought for a while that our main weakness is defending against long-range missiles.
>>
>>54833089
Sure, there won't be any beheading stuff. Last time the Baltics had forest brothers pretty much from WWII until about the 1970s.
>>
>>54833374
i don't suppose he meant that the chechens are the animals everyone knows them to be, but that we might be shittier soldiers...
>>
>>54832902
In the Top 10 largest air forces from 2014 only two European NATO members got on the list: Germany and Turkey.
Germany is the only country you can count on, since Turkey will by their location alone not be able to delegate many of those planes.
They are on the wrong side of Europe and will most likely have they own problems with the middle east, and Russia pressuring them from the black sea.

Also any country bordering with Russia or are located close to Russia, like Norway and Turkey would be forced to focus on their countries alone through fear of being invaded, even though Russia might focus solely on continental Europe.
>>
>>54833344
yeah, with Russia able to launch x-101s and the like from basically any direction, and with Kalibrs on a dozen small hard-to detect subs, Europe is very vulnerable, while only European Russia is vulnerable to whatever Europe has to offer.
>>
>>54833459
You are saying Germany has a better air force than Britain or France? Really?

Do you think number of planes has ANYTHING to with availability?

You're stupid as fuck, no wonder the other posters are taking you to town.

Post less and learn more.
>>
>>54833459
Nigga you stupid.
>>
Has butthurt belt activated already? I didnt' read the thread, just being curious.
>>
>>54833459
Dude, Germany has less airworthy fighters than I have fingers
Last year there was report that out of 109 EF2000 only 8 is airworthy and combatworthy, and out of those 4 are on air policing in Estonia
>>
>>54833459
>Germany is the only country you can count on
lel, they will do everything in their power to prevent article 5 from being invoked if some eastern NATO member gets attacked, along with France and Italy.
>>
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>>54833595
>>
>>54833646
Yeah, this. Exactly.

Less reliable than most of the smaller countries
>>
>>54833634
Seems like an exaggeration to me. I would believe a figure around 30 but not 8. Helicopters is where our real problems are.
>>
>>54833646
???
Merkel has been very outspoken against Putin.
>>
>>54833529
Not entirely my point.

But seriously
>Do you think number of planes has ANYTHING to with availability?
Do you think number of planes has NOTHING to do with availability?

>You are saying Germany has a better air force than Britain or France? Really?
I never said that, read again.

>>54833634
>>54833646
>Germany is the only country you can count on
Was mentioned as the only other European NATO member on that list.
I'm not saying you shouldn't count in France or the UK, but when the largest NATO military force in Europe are so unreliable as an ally how can a war with Russia go well.
I don't post in this thread to shitpost about how shit NATO members are and how great Russian military is, except maybe eastern block and Germany.

But to inform you about how weak the alliance is today, compared to how strong you think it is.

If none of you are willing to believe this, you have all been living under a rock and been able to see how much the European military has deteriorated
>>
>>54834036
"Ostpolitik" is back on the menu, Hans

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21690055-nostalgia-ostpolitik-fouling-up-german-diplomacy-bear-backers

Also the sentiment of the German public is against going to war against Russia for defending a NATO ally
>>
>>54834109
and not been able*

>>54834149
>Also the sentiment of the German public is against going to war against Russia for defending a NATO ally

This is mostly the truth about all western European countries.
>>
>>54834230
>This is mostly the truth about all western European countries.
Not really, not most of them
>>
>>54834036
That's why Poland and the Balts have so high trust in you, Germany.
>>
>>54834291
It's fair to say Polan and Baltics trust more in the US lending a hand over anyone in Europe, except perhaps the UK
>>
>>54834149
Seehofer is a jerk. But he doesn't decide our foreign policy. He's head of the Bavarian government, not a member of the federal government.
>>
>>54834393
What's the AfD's foreign policy line regarding Russia? I'm wondering how things will look if they have to be in a coalition in 2017
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>>54834230
>This is mostly the truth about all western European countries.
Pretty much. When less than half(!) of the population would fight for their own cunt it's not surprising that they are even less willing to do so for a distant foreign one.
>>
>>54832729
The enemy is primarily within America. No one wins in a nuclear war but that is all the traitors seem to be pushing for, soo much harder than ever before.

It is so much worse than the Cold War before, because even our government won't admit its a cold war and our media at best just calls it 'us being in 'competition' with Russia.'

Another reason this is so much worse than the cold war is because NATO never succeeded in overthrowing a member nation of the USSR until the very end. NATO and the kikes have already overthrown Ukraine and are doing very good at dividing Syria between an East and West where all signs are pointing to them planning on undermining Russian gas/oil to Europe.

If you don't secure Syria soon, you are going to be forced into fully committing a land invasion, and with Turkey so close by that will be just fun for you to secure the Northern border, where I'm sure that NATO will demand a DMZ just big enough for a pipeline if they fail in making a 'Democratic Republic of Syria'.

If Russia had actually done something wrong in this entire scenario then I wouldn't care nor would a lot of other individuals. Its the fact that Soros funded an overthrow of Ukraine to obviously undermine Russia, and the Fact that for the 3rd fucking time some 'murderous genocidal dictator' decided to go full fucking retard and 'Use chemical weapons to slaughter 1400 innocent people in Damascus'. When any person with any ounce of intellect would see through the crystal clear bullshit of it and that NO ONE is that fucking stupid to repeat the precursor to 2 of their neighbors collapsing/being invaded/Overthrown.
>>
>>54834291
You have to put yourself in Merkel's shoes. She has to balance the complete range of opinions in Europe, from the most hawkish voices in Poland and the Baltics to the doves in Spain or Italy who see no reason at all to antagonize Russia. She has to occupy the middle ground and still she said publicly Putin lives in another reality.
>>
>>54834272
http://www.stripes.com/news/europe/poll-willingness-to-defend-allies-from-attack-low-in-some-nato-states-1.351606

The general public are increasingly against article 5, also in the US but for other reasons than those in Europe.

Also seriously this >>54834484
>>
>>54834387
>poland trusting the UK
Somehow I doubt that.
>>
>>54834562
I don't think Poland trusts anyone really.
I wouldn't with their history.
>>
>1 Russian Ruble = 0.013 US Dollar

Is this all part of your master plan?
>>
>>54834387
It was sarcasm...
>>
>>54834492
>It is so much worse than the Cold War before, because even our government won't admit its a cold war and our media at best just calls it 'us being in 'competition' with Russia.'
To be fair here, Cold War wasn't called that for a while either. Officially there was also just a competition and preparations for a possible military conflict
>>
>>54834562
It's not 1939. To quote the Canadian Prime Minister, "It's [current year]!". Britain is basing 1000 troops in Poland de facto permanently from 2017, while we withdraw from Germany.

AFAIK we're the only western country to make this commitment
>>
>>54834605
They almost seem like they want to trust us...

Yeah they are kind of like a recovering rape victim though.
>>
>>54834562
The UK is different from Germany or France in that respect, though. They want to buy Russian gas and don't really want to go protect anyone.
>>
>>54834458
The AfD is sponsored by the Russian intelligence service. So take a guess. Putin has rightly identified Germany as Euope's linchpin nation and is trying everything he can to break up the European Union by sabotaging Merkel's attempt to hold it together. Which is why she could really use more support. Especially the refugee crisis has proven as Putin's most potent weapon. It's no coincidence that Russia started a huge bombing campaign against Aleppo the day before the peace talks were to start. Putin wants to maximize the refugees which is why he bombs civilians instead if ISIS.

But if Europe leaves Germany alone with the refugee problem, Germany will eventually have to close its borders. This will be the end of Schengen and essentially the end of Europe as we know it.
>>
>>54834747
Getting suddenly raped for an umpteenth time is Poland's favorite pastime
>>
>>54834484
Figures like that are essentually worthless. America's public was stronlgy isolationist before Pearl Harbor. Didn't help the Nips.
>>
>>54834618
Indeed but that's why the region is seeking for increased US troop presence instead of trying to get Europe in. Merkel has even spoken against increasing American troop presence.
>>
>>54834933
It's the US who has a problem with Putin in the first place.
>>
>>54834799
Ah, I see

>Putin has rightly identified Germany as Euope's linchpin nation and is trying everything he can to break up the European Union by sabotaging Merkel's attempt to hold it together. Which is why she could really use more support. Especially the refugee crisis has proven as Putin's most potent weapon. It's no coincidence that Russia started a huge bombing campaign against Aleppo the day before the peace talks were to start. Putin wants to maximize the refugees which is why he bombs civilians instead if ISIS.
You're absolutely right. I agree with this completely. Except that Merkel's current position needs to change.

She must stop inviting the refugees into Europe. The EU's borders must be effectively guarded from migrants, and instead we should take the refugees directly from around Syria. Inviting people to journey through Europe is dangerous and wrong. It helps the wrong kind of people including the smugglers.

>But if Europe leaves Germany alone with the refugee problem, Germany will eventually have to close its borders.
It's a problem that Germany created with the open door policy. This policy needs to change, only then can the EU take a united position. Which should be:

Guard the borders of the EU
Take in refugees direct from source

This is also more humane, as it helps the vulnerable instead of the 80% young men who make the journey
>>
>>54834536
Merkel doesn't represent anyone but Germany. She needs to shut the fuck up.
>>
>>54834876
>Figures like that are essentually worthless
You are completely wrong on this point, they are the main indicators of how large a segment of the population is willing to fight before the fight actually begins. Higher willingness = higher morale. It is not saying that a people won't retaliate if someone comes and hurts them directly and you'd be mistaken to think that.

>America's public was stronlgy isolationist before Pearl Harbor
Strongly isolationist doesn't mean pacifistic, they just felt that getting involved in the problems of the old world was going to be more trouble than it was worth.
>>
What would Russia get out of invading Baltic states, Belarus or anything else in that region?

Of course Putin might be operating on different version of rationality than western world, but I honestly doubt that.
>>
>>54827128
The officers or the vodka?
>>
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>people think the norwegian isn't a russian
>even though there are a few russians in norway/using norway proxy who post on /int/ and especially russia threads
>>
>>54835149
>vodka
>they
Seriously?
>>
>>54834989
We didn't force him to be a huge faggot, he chose that on his own.
>>
>>54835147
The Baltic Sea has never stopped being important. Go and find a map, find St. Petersburg on the map, follow the water out and look at the coasts along the Gulf of Finland
>>
i hope we nuke russia
>>
>>54832212
And you're pretending to be a real human.
>>
>>54835076
>instead we should take the refugees directly from around Syria
How about not taking any of them in at all and forcing them to go back and fix it? They will only cause more problems and decrease the quality of life for the average citizens and the (too many) immigrants already here.

It is much better for the region in the long run too because it will prevent a brain drain from developing.
>>
Bulgaria doesn't have any nukes.

Or money.
>>
>>54835147
It would help him maintain power if things get bad in Russia. Also dominance on the Baltic Sea and Russian imperialist notions. And it secures his hometown from "American aggression". St. Petersburg is a short way from Estonia.
>>
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>>54828125
HOLY CRAP GUYS IT'S SVALBARD
WOAH
>>
>>54834484
Too comfy really.
>>
>>54835234
Ideally this would be the solution. But Assad's government is quite happy to murder anyone who lives in the wrong place at the wrong time, and they're even killing their prisoners. Then you have IS - would you want to live under IS?

These people face torture and death, they're going to try and escape while Syria is like it is
>>
>>54835230
>we
Still though, iktf.
>>
>>54828125
>The Russians are a force to be reckoned with.

Do the Afghans know it?
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>>54835194
>>
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>>54835076
>She must stop inviting the refugees into Europe. The EU's borders must be effectively guarded from migrants
But that is Merkel's position. She said we have to guard our external borders, especially the water borders in order to keep Schengen. She is trying to rally Europe to help Greece with its border problems and to pay Turkey to better control its border. And the rest of Europe is like "meh, us paying? No that's a job for Germany alone"

Her statement about not sending Syrians back that she did in late August may have been problematic, but by that date the big influx was already underway. And the journey takes 4 weeks. So nothing until late September can be attributed to her statement. That's just an excuse. pic related.
She said that to take pressure from the vulnerable periphery. And it worked. But it's not a permanent solution. For that we need all of Europe.
>>
>>54825629
how cum Russia never invade my airspace? I'm nato too god fucking damn it!!!!
Only pretty Sweden,Finland and slutty balkanlar Turkey get handsome Ivan to come and solicit them and Romanai sits all alone and no Ivan to dance cazacioc!!! I can cook better than all these cumslutdfamn fudigjdf-=gds=ghdfggdgrewreeeee
>>
>>54835147
Belarus, Finland, and to a lesser degree, Sweden, could be invaded for the same reason to invade Ukraine; don't move West, and if you do, your country will be a shitpile and Europe won't want to touch you with a ten-foot pole.

NATO itself being attacked is much less likely, but the Baltics have always been a weak link. If the belief in Russia is that NATO is all bark and no bite, and a swift, decisive invasion could shatter it, it remains something to worry about.
>>
>>54835232
Only an hour late... not bad for a baltic
>>
>>54835311
Shhhh....
>>
>>54835348
>still believing that assad is some ebin murderous dictator who had slaughtered 100k+ people mercilessly

Wow that sure worked out for Sadam and Gadaffi, you know 2 nations that are within a 5 hour plane trip from each other.

Surely he is going to do the exact
same
fucking
thing
Sadam
and
Gadaffi
did
>>
>>54835409
She must *explicitly* tell migrants to stop coming to Europe. When they're interviewed over in Europe that's what they say: Merkel said we're welcome. She has still put NO limit on the refugees that Germany is prepared to accept. She has to do that, else people will think they have a chance
>>
>>54835313
Finland and Sweden demonstrate that it has nothing to do with comfyness, but everything to do with how the common man percieves the nation, it's people, it's neighbours, it's history and the role all of these play in the national discourse and the wider world.
>>
>>54835109
You know as well as me that the European Commission would take ages to do anything. It's a consequence of Europe's democratic deficit that the member state's leaders do indeed matter much in deciding the direction of European politics. And Germany, by virtue of size and current economic stability and prosperity, was thrown into the positon of leadership. An unwanted position but we have it nonetheless. And much depends on those decisions.
>>
>>54835416
>the belief in Russia is that NATO is all bark and no bite
There's no such belief, you're making shit up
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>>54835186
The Internet is full of Russians living abroad but praising their shithole homeland. It's ridicilous.
>>
>>54835139
>Strongly isolationist doesn't mean pacifistic, they just felt that getting involved in the problems of the old world was going to be more trouble than it was worth.
And that's the same sentiment when you see polls about how many (or few) Germans would defend others. Once the war starts and how it starts changes everything.
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>>54833459
>Top 10 largest air forces from 2014
>only two European NATO members got on the list
>Germany and Turkey
>Germany
>and
>Turkey

>Germany is the only country you can count on

Were you dropped on your head as a child?
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>>54835194
>We didn't force him to be a huge faggot

Actually you did.

>The United States could take “concrete action” against Ukraine if its government cracks down on dissent, Senator John McCain warned Sunday as he addressed thousands of protesters camped on Kiev's bitterly cold main square

>“concrete action” against Ukraine

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/ukraine-protests-mccain-warns-us-could-act-over-russia-deal-f2D11744439
>>
>>54835390
>DEMOCRACY = CAPITALISM = GOOD
>ISLAM = TERRORISM = EVIL

They start the brainwashing at an early age, desu
>>
>>54835703
On that list Germany is the only one you can count on in Europe.
Which is the sad part.
>>
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ISLAM = TERRORISM = EVIL
>>
>>54835779
You can't trust a list that claims to count "largest airforces" but only counts combat aircraft. In an actual war, the frontline fighters are one piece in a large jigsaw
>>
>>54835416
Don't know if observers in Finland noticed that when Putin annexed Crimea, the people in front of him were cheering "give us Finland next".
>>
>>54835661
>Once the war starts and how it starts changes everything.
Russia will never in a million years attack Germany because America has nuclear weapons there, so comparing the pre-pearl harbour USA and 2016 Germany is going to prove nothing whatsoever.

My point is that any kind of war between Russians and say Balts, Romanians or Poles would not result in any kind of military intervention by Germany because it is totally counter to it's own interests to do that. Sure, there would be an unprecedented deepening of the sanctions regime against Russia and maybe even some analogue to the USSR's expulsion from the LoN, but there is no way that there would be a war over this.
>>
>>54835779
But what list have you even been reading? Some YouTube "Top 10" put together by a 10-year-old?

You must have been living under a rock for the last few decades. Germany's military is literally falling to pieces due to government under funding. Its government never EVER gets involved in any military confrontations. To say they've got a better air force than the UK and France and (even more laughably) that they're the only ones you can count on is just downright retarded on a colossal scale.
>>
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Sure.
>>
>>54833990
Over 30 were airworthy, but not combat-worthy
>>
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>russians pretending they aren't the devil incarnate
>americans pretending they aren't opportunistic false friends
>>
>>54835610
From what I've read, it was an old mindset of the Soviets during the Cold War that NATO was fractious, and ultimately weak, bound more by fear of Russia than common ideals. The idea was that NATO, built upon a decadent societal model, was too soft to make war with the Pact, and would crack given enough pressure.

It's quite telling that the Russian concept of "nuclear de-escalation", that of using a small strike of nuclear weapons to stop a war, doesn't exist in the West. We have no equivalent, since we don't believe that limited, shocking use of nukes can dissuade our enemies. But if you believe the enemy lacks constitution, it makes perfect sense.

http://thebulletin.org/why-russia-calls-limited-nuclear-strike-de-escalation
>>
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>>54825629
>that russian desperation
>>
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>>54835390
>WE SAVED ENGLAND'S ASS IN WW2

WE. WUZ. KINGZ.
>>
>>54835762
It's not brainwashing if it's true.
>>
>>54828125
Based Norway doesn't mention UHF spectrum
>>
>>54835568
There's a difference between migrants and refugees. When she said in early 2015 to that little girl that Germany can't take everybody in that was true and referred to migrants. Her statement of late August only mentioned Syrians. What people think whether they have a chance depends much more on the rumors that traffickers spread in the countries of origin to increase demand for their services. Our embassies have been campaigning against those rumors for months now. But it's hard fighting the mafia of all of the Balkans, Turkey, parts of Africa and central Asia.

But, still, we need more hep from Europe. If the rest of Europe continues to believe it's just a German problem, this will blow up in our faces. And then it will become everybody's problem very quickly.
>>
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>THAT
>RUSSIAN
>DESPERATION
>>
>>54836231
Yea, I guess.
>>
>>54836130
During the Cold War (and even now) the Russians always practiced invasion instead of defense.
>>
>>54835967
>My point is that any kind of war between Russians and say Balts, Romanians or Poles would not result in any kind of military intervention by Germany because it is totally counter to it's own interests to do that.
And here I believe you're wrong.
>>
>>54836317
Russians suck at defending territory.

They only good at taking territory.
>>
>>54836236
>Her statement of late August only mentioned Syrians.
The people across MENA don't listen to every word of the speech, it doesn't matter. What matters is interpretation. This is why Merkel must make it EXPLICIT and it must come from here, no one will give a toss what the embassies say. Furthermore there must be a cap, for Germany's own sake, the country can't cope with unlimited immigration.

>But, still, we need more hep from Europe. If the rest of Europe continues to believe it's just a German problem, this will blow up in our faces. And then it will become everybody's problem very quickly.
It is already everyone's problem. Look at Italy and France for example. Some of the people in Paris attacks came as "refugees"
>>
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>>54836402
like they took afghanistan?
>>
>>54836476
>This is why Merkel must make it EXPLICIT and it must come from here,
her*
>>
>>54825629
>no meme arrow pointing at my country
not joining NATO paid off it seems
>>
>>54836384
The German military lacks the capacity to do anything to Russia and it is in that state because of a clueless public and legislators that are interested in slashing it's budgets. Any kind of declaration of war by Germany would be suicidal given the state of the country right now.

I'm thinking that it will take at least 10-20 years of goal oriented, pro-military governance to get the German army to a state where it can be truly powerful on an international scale and the push to do so would only come from a wider European war.
>>
>>54836639
Or 3 years of national socialism.
>>
>>54836639
Why do you keep pitting germany against russia alone?
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>>54836476
She can't declare a cap without having a European solution first as it would put the pressure back on the vulnerable periphery again. If she did, Europe would fail. And everybody would wish to only have the problems of today, including France and Italy.
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>>54836700
>Or 3 years of national socialism.
It took Hitler SIX years to build up a military that LOST against Britain (before fighting Russia) and LOST against Russia
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>>54836639
Germany is in Nato. Any Russian military aggression in the Baltics would warrant a response from the alliance and Germany would do its part.
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>>54827743
>draws Star of David on Syrian map

Not for long senpai
>>
>NATO WILL DO NOTHING COMRADES HONESTLY IT'S NO USE JOINGING NATO YOU GUYS
>number of NATO members attacked by Russia: 0
>number of non-NATO European countries with territories occupied by Russia right not: 3
>>
>>54829574
Russia placed s300 and s400 in syria, it's game over for t*rks if they ever tried something like that again
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>>54827538
no, it was planed.

ukraine-anthithesis to russia, donetsk Lugansk antithesis to ukraine.

only time matters untill burgers give up whole ukraine to russia(lots of deaths will occure)

russia can feed 2 Million, but USA cant feed 20 Million western ukrainians.

t:starikov
>>
russia i just like a hude dick, everyone is jelouse and envy off

but when it is hard it becomes very painfull experience.

someone should save it.
>>
>>54836995
>Germany lost against Britain

How Britshits manage to be delusional in every aspect of their lives? Let guess, Dunkirk was a massive strategic and tactical victory for the British Army?
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>>54835415
are you okay Romania-chan?
>>
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>>54837647
American poster, meet history. History, meet typical American poster.
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>>54838101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCR1DeQmzF4
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>>54836995
>it only took 6 years of National Socialism to challenge every global superpower on the entire planet and take 80% of Europe

You aren't making your case.

To be completely fair, Communism and Socialism is the greatest nation building force on the entire planet for undeveloped nations. It only starts to really suck when you try to become completely dependent on it as an economic ideology
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>>54838448
>it only took 6 years of National Socialism to challenge every global superpower on the entire planet and take 80% of Europe
>You aren't making your case.

What the hell is your case? The Nazis LOST against those powers and they LOST that territory in Europe. It's not hard to "challenge" a strong power with a short burst military build up, the hard part is to WIN. You're advertising a regime that was great at losing. You're stupid.

>To be completely fair, Communism and Socialism is the greatest nation building force on the entire planet for undeveloped nations
Yep, you're really fucking stupid
>>
>>54838101
>major defeat and a crucial turning point
Calling it a crucial turning point is just blatant biased editing, since ther was no way for Germany to actually follow up and conquer Britain even if it destroyed the whole RAF. Operation Sealion is the biggest meme of WW2, with the cruciality of the Battle of Britain being a close second. I don't think that it is correct to even call it a major defeat since the Germans lost nothing they couldn't replace, the confidence in their nation's capacity to fight and win was unshaken and they then went on to fight a war of a considerably vaster scale in the east a short time later.

The BoB has however acquired a mythos of its own and stating the truth about it's scale and importance compared to actual British war changing wins like El Alamein and the Battle of the Atlantic only tends to provoke people.
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>>54827470
They do. Greece for example constantly has shitfits because of Turkish planes flying into Greek airspace
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>>54838841
Knocking Britain out of the war was crucial for the Germans. They had to fight Russia with a steadily increasing strategic bombing campaign via the RAF and other air forces stationed in Britain. Furthermore they lost thousands of pilots. Thousands. Skilled pilots ARE difficult to replace. Britain remaining in the war is also the only reason why a 2nd front was able to open up in the west.

A British withdrawal from the war (not necessary invasion and occupation) was absolutely vital to German success. You cannot control the Continent without beating the UK into submission.
>>
>>54839309
>Knocking Britain out of the war was crucial for the Germans.
Yes, but even if they had hypothetically destroyed the entire RAF, they couldn't have knocked britain out of the war since they lacked a way to follow up on the success due to the strength of the RN.

>They had to fight Russia with a steadily increasing strategic bombing campaign via the RAF and other air forces stationed in Britain.
This isn't being discussed.

>Furthermore they lost thousands of pilots. Thousands. Skilled pilots ARE difficult to replace.
Their total casualties were less than 3000 and the Germans were churning out pilots on a much larger scale than the allies of the time. Furthermore, most of the pilots that went down were green, since the veterans had already faced and bested western planes during the low countries and french campaign.

>Britain remaining in the war is also the only reason why a 2nd front was able to open up in the west.
Yes, this is obvious and isn't even being discussed.

>A British withdrawal from the war (not necessary invasion and occupation) was absolutely vital to German success. You cannot control the Continent without beating the UK into submission.
True, but the only way Germany could have done that is by depriving Britain of the Suez and starving Britain through halting the north atlantic convoys, not the half-hearted meme bombing of random cities.
>>
>>54832509
>says the mongol
>>
NATOFAGS BTFO
>>
>>54839843
Depriving Britain of the Suez and dominating the north Atlantic was impossible because of the Royal Navy. If they had destroyed the RAF however, and gained air superiority, they could bomb at leisure because anti-air was so shit back then. But it was basically impossible for them to defeat the RAF, they didn't have the range required.

>Furthermore, most of the pilots that went down were green, since the veterans had already faced and bested western planes during the low countries and french campaign.
I don't understand this comment. Their pilots gained war experience but when coming to Britain they become green? Sorry but losing skilled pilots is a big deal.

>Their total casualties were less than 3000
Plus another 1000 captured after they ejected. These were also lost.

The Battle of Britain WAS their first major defeat and it WAS a turning point, because before the BoB the Nazis were winning, after the BoB they lost against the powers they challenged. Don't come back with the early Barbarossa victories after the surprise attack because they couldn't follow through, the challenge of the Soviet Union was failed.
>>
>>54825629
DAVAI DAVAI PIDAR
IDI NAHUI
CYKA BLYAT
>>
>>54838758
Wow m8 you sure showed me

Tell me a single economic system that can convert a nation in 6 years to a global super power then sustain the war for 6 more additional years against every global super power. The real point is that the Nazis could have won the war, STUPID battle decisions lose the war not the Economic system that funds it, which there clearly weren't any problems with until they started being pushed in from every direction.

Now tell me a single economic system that will work for an undeveloped society. A society still stuck in a tribal form with zero gubernatorial hierarchy.

If you say fucking capitalism you are an absolute dumb fuck, capitalism was only possible because something called a Monarchy existed, and this said Monarchy had its powers usurped by rich nobles to form a parlimentary system which took centuries, from there free market capitalism was born.

Going from a tribal people or a totalitarian monarch/aristocracy to a democratic parlimentary system isn't feasible without outside influence in a short time, in fact I don't think it has ever been successfully done. Communism/Socialism forms a societal hierarchy which is a necessary skeleton to branch and develope future governmental precedents if you are going to skip the slow transition to democracy, if you become dependent on it USSR, Red China ect ect
>>
How can Airspaces be real if space isn't
>>
>>54840317
This is a bad post and you should feel bad
>>
>>54840752
Sure it is m8

Because free market capitalism is working so well in African nation

oh wait
>>
>>54841322
in any African Nation*

in African Nations*
>>
>>54840295
>Depriving Britain of the Suez and dominating the north Atlantic was impossible because of the Royal Navy.
That is false, the Royal Navy was unable to efficiently protect anything but the barest number of convoys until later in the war, while the war in north africa could have gone either way at that point. Had El Alamein been lost, there was nothin that could have been done to unfuck the suez situation for many months at the very least. The Mediterranean would have becom an axis lake and the allies would have been forced to retreat either into Africa or into the ME mandates.

>If they had destroyed the RAF however, and gained air superiority, they could bomb at leisure because anti-air was so shit back then.
That is blatantly untrue. Many sites were left alone because of the anti air that was present.

>But it was basically impossible for them to defeat the RAF
Which is what I've been saying the whole time when I say that the Battle of Britain can't be a turning point or decisive victory.

>I don't understand this comment. Their pilots gained war experience but when coming to Britain they become green? Sorry but losing skilled pilots is a big deal.
I'm saying that a majority of those that went down were green aircrews, veterans who had already faced the british before did considerably better against them.

>The Battle of Britain WAS their first major defeat and it WAS a turning point, because before the BoB the Nazis were winning, after the BoB they lost against the powers they challenged
Seems we have a different interpretation of what constitutes a turning point.
>>
>>54841523
>That is false, the Royal Navy was unable to efficiently protect anything but the barest number of convoys until later in the war
Oh please. Don't bullshit me.

>At no time during the campaign were supply lines to Britain interrupted; even during the Bismarck crisis, convoys sailed as usual (although with heavier escorts). In all, during the Atlantic Campaign only 10% of transatlantic convoys that sailed were attacked, and of those attacked only 10% on average of the ships were lost. Overall, more than 99% of all ships sailing to and from the British Isles during World War II did so successfully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic#Assessment
>>
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>discussion in which Germany is vaguely mentioned turns into WWII argument
>>
>>54841786
>implying you need to sink all the ships to do damage
>implying the majority of the traffic didn't take place after the battle for the atlantic was already won
>implying supply disruption isn't almost as bad for logistics as not getting anything at all

Let's have a look at what it takes to cause a supply disruption:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_protests_in_the_United_Kingdom

>On 8 September 2000, the Stanlow Refinery near Ellesmere Port in Cheshire was blockaded by Farmers for Action, led by David Handley. Over the next few days, pickets were reported at Milford Haven and an oil terminal at Avonmouth causing some petrol stations to run out of supplies. On 8 September 2000, fuel protesters blockaded several facilities for a limited period and disrupted fuel supplies to Yorkshire, North West England, and the Scottish Borders and demanding that the government reduce fuel taxes. Some of the protesters called for a reduction of between 15 and 26 pence per litre in duties.

The protests spread so that on 10 September 2000 they included facilities at the Manchester Fuels Terminal, Kingsbury Oil Terminal, the largest inland oil terminal, and at Cardiff Docks. Panic buying of petrol began to close some petrol stations as motorists queued for fuel which was beginning to be rationed and reports of garages increasing their prices substantially. Rolling roadblocks were also reported in North East England on the A1 and A55 roads. On 11 September 2000, the government obtained an Order in Council which was authorised by the Privy Council and the Queen to take emergency powers under the Energy Act 1976 to ensure delivery of fuel to essential services. By now six of the nine refineries and four oil distribution depots were subject to protests.
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>>54843728
>By Tuesday 12 September 2000, 3,000 petrol stations were reported to be closed due to a lack of fuel. There were also reports that there would be no fuel left within 48 hours. Tony Blair, the Prime Minister put the oil companies under pressure to resume deliveries. BP said that they would resume deliveries if police escorts were given to the tankers. Tony Blair had been in contact with the oil companies during the day and announced that supplies would be back to normal within 24 hours, with the oil companies having been ordered under the government's powers to commence deliveries to the emergency services. At the same time BBC News reported that the government's COBRA committee had drawn up plans to deal with the crisis, including using the military to assist in moving supplies and restricting the sale of fuel. South West Trains were reported to be reducing some of their services to preserve fuel supplies. Deliberately slow-moving convoys of lorries caused traffic jams on the M1 and M5 motorways.

This was all caused by a small segment of Britain's own population, not a foreign superpower that is waging unrestricted submarine warfare.

You clearly have no fucking clue what you are talking about, so why do I even bother responding?
>>
>>54843728
>>54843832
I thought I had defeated you

Ah well, the thread will die soon. Not glorious but a victory nonetheless.
>>
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>>54843924
>I thought I had defeated you
I'm not an American.
Thread replies: 322
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