>>53620867 during the Putin's reign Russia rapidly modernized and grew economically, he secured Crimea paying the price of few years of economical troubles, he is a typical Russian leader with iron grip over the country, Russians are used to it and it seems like they accept it
also the economical situation in Russia isn't as bad as it seems to be in international rankings but well I don't really know that's why I made this thread
>>53621073 Oil is a lot less important to Russia than it was a while back.
In real terms Russia is down 4-5% since they peaked in 2014. But in nominal terms it lost nearly 65% of its value. The reason being that in currency markets no one likes taking a guaranteed 5% loss, so they start selling all their rubles and it turns into a vicious cycle where the ruble falls 65%.
In real terms Russia is in a recession the size of 2008's. That's with oil falling 70%. So Putin and Russia will survive, and eventually come back. Either that will incentivize them to make their economy more efficient, or it'll make them even more repressive.
>>53620867 You are dead wrong about Yeltsin. Yeltsin was top dog in Russia and he hand selected Putin because Putin had no connections to the oligarchs. Putin was a literal nobody. That meant Yeltsin wouldn't be prosecuted and his oligarch friends wouldn't be prosecuted as well. Putin was weak.
>>53623515 atleast he was able to take advantage of rising oil price, a lot of countries can't even do that >same old BRICS argument you can partly explain Russia's growth by oil prices, but what about China
>>53625469 >you can partly explain Russia's growth by oil prices, but what about China the same old BRICS argument was that the leader is the reason behind the success and not that the success happened regardless of the leader
what China's leaders actually are to thank for is that they freed the markets and that was done by Deng way back
>>53626034 Norway is a good example. Leaders could have sat down the foot like back in 2007, to force the oil sector to go for a stable policy instead of rapid expansion into rapid downsizing. Sure, jobs was created, but nothing was done to create those jobs in the long term.
>>53626675 >have you something to offer to contrary? have you anything to confirm that the current Chinese leadership and the leadership before it is any kind of bad? because so far they are doing great job >>53626675 >how much investment do you think china would receive if it were an open democracy >china >democracy China greatly benefits from NOT HAVING DEMOCRACY
if it was an open democracy and foreigners would be free to invest there, China would be just e.g another country where the internet is monopolized by google, facebook, twitter - instead of it they have their own companies like tencent, alibaba, baidu
if they had democracy, corruption would be much worse - look India
if they had democracy, any long term planning would be impossible, now the Chinese are planning decades ahead, but in a democratic government you can plan for the term of office
Chinese people actually ridicule democracy >political system when the most popular one gets power
if they had democracy, Xinjiang - important region because of it's resources could be already independent, the same with Tibet
>>53626034 >I can't even imagine how you'd possibly be able to fuck that up If he wouldn't have done anything he would have 'fucked up'. Every major oil asset at the time he took office were in possession handful of Russian oligarchs, just recently acquired by questionable means might I add, and likely to be sold off to big Western oil companies in near future. Reeling in the oligarchs and their businesses that weren't that into paying taxes at the time and setting some basic rules for them has been the most important thing Putin has done in his career. And almost every one of them understood the new situation and adjusted to that, everyone but Khodorkovsky who still wanted to keep his plunders, not pay taxes and keep on partying like it was late 1990's
>>53627146 >if it was an open democracy and foreigners would be free to invest there, China would be just e.g another country where the internet is monopolized by google, facebook, twitter - instead of it they have their own companies like tencent, alibaba, baidu as in investment of another form
and it would benefit them greatly in the long run instead of being what they are now, cut off
>if they had democracy, corruption would be much worse - look India or look at finland? why isn't there corruption here? you're just cherry-picking
> if they had democracy, any long term planning would be impossible, now the Chinese are planning decades ahead, but in a democratic government you can plan for the term of office any long term planning is impossible now as well, anything could happen with these leaders
>if they had democracy, Xinjiang - important region because of it's resources could be already independent, the same with Tibet because why?
>>53627380 >as in investment of another form >and it would benefit them greatly in the long run instead of being what they are now, cut off bullshit it wouldn't benefit them at all, they would be just colonized again by foreign companies, after communism they had no capital at all, all of China would be sold out, and the existing Chinese companies wouldn't be capable of competing against the Western ones
China is big and is capable of building a large, national economy on it's own it just needs time, selling everything to foreigners is a retarded idea, it's only good if the country is relatively small like Poland and in the position where it can't be independent anyway >>53627380 >and it would benefit them greatly in the long run instead of being what they are now, cut off no comparable country in world history can match Chinese growth since Deng Xiaoping
do you think it could be even better? not really, but it could be much worse (see India)
>>53627380 >or look at finland? why isn't there corruption here? you're just cherry-picking because it's a small country, part of Western civilization, democracy muh equality and all this bullshit was introduced a long time ago, income in Finland is pretty equal, also Finland is relatively rich
large and poorer countries like Brazil, Russia, India have a lot of poor people and a small group of extremely rich(richer than anyone in Finland) billionaires, it's naturally that corruption in countries like these is much, much harder to fight
and democracy can even worsen everything, strong government will cope better if you have capable leaders like Xi Jingping who puts in jail even high officials
>>53627380 >any long term planning is impossible now as well, anything could happen with these leaders but they are doing long term planning all the time, now they are stimulating internal market and consumption and shifting towards service based economy, they established AIIB
they are going to establish "Silk Road 2.0" too, why don't we have such billion dollars project from India or Brazil? >because why? because these populations clearly don't want to be a part of China? especially Xinjiang and their muslim extremists with their terrorist attacks?
you are jsut some Westerner which believes MUH DEMOCRACY is a best thing for everyone, in every case
>>53628014 >they would be just colonized again by foreign companies just like they are now? do you have any idea about the ownership of any of the chinese companies that aren't run by the state? isn't it volkswagen that sells most cars in china, under a chinese name? same with a bunch of car makers
>do you think it could be even better? yes
>because it's a small country, part of Western civilization, democracy muh equality and all this bullshit was introduced a long time ago, income in Finland is pretty equal, also Finland is relatively rich lmao we were poor as fuck and an agrarian country until the 1950s/1960s
>>53627793 It's not really that much money, and if we use to much it might result in overheating of the economy and extreme inflation.
I preferer if we hold on to the fund. I like the thought about us now owning about 2% of all the world stocks and bonds, and big parts of properties along famous streets like Oxford street and Piccadilly Circus.
I'll call it a crisis when we are about the level of poorer western countries like France og Germany.
>>53626714 Tenker på f.eks http://www.nrk.no/mr/morke-skyer---men-ser-lyspunkt-1.12709474 http://www.nrk.no/trondelag/toff-dag-for-mange-statoil-ansatte-1.12705660
Basically a 5% downsize inside Statoil, and others are doing the same. Externally, there is a lot more, because various hotels that live of the oil people, and ships get hit. I.E http://www.nrk.no/rogaland/milliardskip-star-ubrukt_-1.12409530 So basically another 5-8% of the nation is without job because of this. The same hiring spree could have been stopped the last time, and there didn't need to be a silly economic downtime.
>>53628169 >but they are doing long term planning all the time, now they are stimulating internal market and consumption and shifting towards service based economy, they established AIIB just like democractic goverments would do
>because these populations clearly don't want to be a part of China? majority rule
>you are jsut some Westerner which believes MUH DEMOCRACY is a best thing for everyone, in every case and I doubt you're even Polish
>>53623424 >Putin was a literal nobody. >That meant Yeltsin wouldn't be prosecuted and his oligarch friends wouldn't be prosecuted as well. Putin was we then he backstabbed them all and began repatriating national assets like a man who loves his country more than riches would do
>Price of oil dropping all 2015 >libcucks unironically say "you can thank Obama for that!" >Apparently unaware the US lost 515,000 jobs because of it >Economic growth 2.1% instead of 2.6% >Scientifially proven that people will drive more and faster with low gas prices, thereby increasing pollution
>>53626675 >how much investment do you think china would receive if it were an open democracy No that much, because the people doing ventures in China would build their private small generators to power them. The indirect benefits of what China is doing is huge, even if they are retarded about the plant types they are building to power their mega factories(and cities by extension). There is a reason investment goes to China, and not some worse shithole.
>>53627146 >China greatly benefits from NOT HAVING DEMOCRACY
Not true, the most well of countries (of any size) are democracies which means that democracy is the superior form of government humans have created.
>if it was an open democracy and foreigners would be free to invest there, China would be just e.g another country where the internet is monopolized by google, facebook, twitter - instead of it they have their own companies like tencent, alibaba, baidu
There is really no argument in here except for the statement that Chinese are less capable of creating stuff than Westerners, which isn't true.
>if they had democracy, corruption would be much worse - look India
I'd much rather look http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results where we can very clearly see that the most democratic countries are the least corrupt and vice versa.
>if they had democracy, any long term planning would be impossible, now the Chinese are planning decades ahead, but in a democratic government you can plan for the term of office
In China and other totalitarian states the rules of business can change in one night without any notification. In democratic countries there's always time to adjust to changes and the system is transparent. Democracy>totalitarianism for business owners.
>Chinese people actually ridicule democracy
There are 1,3 billion people in China, you are saying they all are against democracy? Like the students and other people on tiananmen square?
>>53630236 there's none, companies are not hiring right now. Massive lay offs, many pipeline sites are closed down because they don't make money operating.
Everyone is scared in the oil sector in fear of loosing their jobs. There's also high vacancy rates for commercial and residential sites right now because small companies went under, and people had to move due to job loss. We're still in tumbling down mode. Everyone talks about the oil dollar and is afraid because it keeps going down.
Oh, and Trans Canada sues your government 15 billion for not approving the pipeline because NAFTA. :DD
Of course they do and democracy is one of the most important one of those. In addition to democracy you need several important pieces of legislation that are actually enforced like:
1) property rights 2) government transparency 3) anti-corruption legislation 4) system that rewards competence instead of "birthrights"
etc... I think it's truly ridiculous to argue about democracy vs. totalitarianism as only one of these system has brought lasting and actual wealth to any nation and its citizens in a way that's legitimate. Democracy has its problems, mostly focused on majority vs. minority issues, but with totalitarianism the amount of problems is infinite. Literally any problem that can be though can be a problem in a totalitarianistic regime.
>>53628373 Where the fuck were you when Russia started arresting Kremlin mafia and slashing export contracts, causing tens of billions in loses to international conglomerates and whole world went apeshit? That was the first time ever people abroad started asking who the fuck is Putin.
>>53630413 >In democratic countries there's always time to adjust to changes I quess you dont call major devaluation a major change. A thing that has happened 'over night' in Finland twice, all the while prime minister gave a speech forthnight that there wont be one. I quess it isnt corruption either that major companies somehow knew night before that the devaluation was coming, but small businesses didnt. Or that all three parts of the Finnish judicial system is controlled by lefties.
>>53630454 they are not le ebin individuals like Westerners, their culture is different, based on Confucianism - respect for social and political hierarchy >>53630413 >Not true, the most well of countries (of any size) are democracies which means that democracy is the superior form of government humans have created. What if humans create something new, better? Maybe Chinese system is better for people of Chinese culture and traditions? Once almost entire world was ruled by monarchs, yet democracies happened. No one can say democracy is le best ultimate system... >>53630413 >There is really no argument in here except for the statement that Chinese are less capable of creating stuff than Westerners, which isn't true. You don't understand... If your country was socialist for a long period of time and then you want to transform to capitalism you have basically no capital to start with. It's natural companies from the capitalistic countries are much more competetive and simply have more money to invest. So if you want to shift towards capitalism you generally have 2 choices - either let foreigners take over most of your market or to protect it. Of course there it's not black and white lol, they are not protecting every sector of economy - foreign investment can greatly benefit to economic growth aswell. But they protect what they know is of strategic importance - finances, resources and the internet. As I previously mentioned, large companies like Alibaba, Baidu, Tencent probably wouldn't ever grow and become giants. China would be just full Google and Facebook which means more money and influence for Americans and less for the natives. >I'd much rather look http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results Chinese and a lot of Asian don't care at all about Western rankings. They are widely criticized for favoring Western style of developement. Especially these composite, arbitrary rankings.
OK I'm out. 4chan doesn't allow to write longer replies than 2000 characters.
>>53631012 >4) system that rewards competence instead of "birthrights" Politics in China are generally better educated and more competent than these in the West. Politics in the West have to be popular, members of Communist Party of China are usually promoted for their performance.
I was talking about legislation, not currency manipulation. Also, that was over 20 years ago and nowadays we have Euro. I admit, it's theoretically possible to do the same with this currency but in practice it really isn't.
>I quess it isnt corruption either that major companies somehow knew night before that the devaluation was coming, but small businesses didnt.
Do you have some data showing that they were told or is this just some "I know cause conspiracies and shit"...
>all three parts of the Finnish judicial system is controlled by lefties.
No matter what kind of clothes it wears there is only one real concern of government: Control of the many by the few. Democracy is the rule of the many by their free will, isn’t it? If the total is 100, if you collect 52 among them, you can make it rule by the majority. But that majority is divided into many factions. Namely if we add up 26 from among those 52, they can rule the whole we spoke before. How futile is the democratic principle called majority rule when the true aspect of government is control of the many by the few.
>>53631658 >Monkey system where there is no long term planning Democratic states (at least the ones who aren't retarded) have long and mid term strategies for their affairs. >And control over elections are via the media Ochlocracy =/= democracy - people are suckers for populism and media manipulations; I agree at least in part with you on this, there shouldn't be any reporting on elections for at least 1 week prior to the actual election day.
>>53631796 It's considered a "good" deal for my area. To get anything cheaper you have to move into some random neighbourhood far from where I work. But then I have to pay for a car, deal with traffic, and it would end up costing much more in the end.
>No one can say democracy is le best ultimate system...
I didn't say it's the ultimate system, I said "democracy is the superior form of government humans have created."
Other than that, your argumentation is just bullshit. Chinese system is a system based on totalitarianism, just like old monarchies+communist and facist countries. Almost all of these systems of government have collapsed and prosperity has ensued.
>If your country was socialist for a long period of time and then you want to transform to capitalism you have basically no capital to start with.
So this has denied Poland, Balts, Czechs and other eurofied countries from prospering? Even though none of the ex-soviet countries that have made it to the EU have nearly the same amount of resources as for example Russia and Kazakhstan and yet pretty much all of them are outdoing them in every sector.
Another alarming thing is that you don't seem to comprehend what "money" means. Money in essence is the worth of tangible and intangible assets+the worth of the wealth those assets generate. What you are implying is that socialist countries don't have any tangible/intangible assets which tells quite a lot about the socialist system in general...
>Chinese and a lot of Asian don't care at all about Western rankings. They are widely criticized for favoring Western style of developement.
What's your 1 bedroom in square meters/square feet? I don't live in the capital and my 43 m2 apartment is 695+water+electricity+car spot so like 750-775e/month... In Helsinki this would be like 1,2k-1,5k euros...
>>53630413 >Democracy: Let's put a part time elementary school teacher who has studied music and dance in charge of our country's finances. vs. >China's current Financial minister has studied computer sciences at university, done post graduate work on econometrics and has wast 30 year experience working in leading roles in different Chinese economic and civil institutions, including Director of the Institute of Finance and Trade of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, vice-governor of Guizhou Province, and Chairman and CEO of $2.1 trillion investment fund China Investment Corporation
Fuck democracy, I want similar setup in Finland as well that puts actually competent people leading the country instead of this current mess where winners of "who can make up the most convincing lies"-contest held every four years get to take their turn in steering this sinking ship
Here's the rest of their leaders, every single one of them have degrees in engineering, economics or sciences with vast experience in their respective fields https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Council_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#Principal_officers
>>53631918 >So this has denied Poland, Balts, Czechs and other eurofied countries from prospering? No it denied us from independence and power. >What you are implying is that socialist countries don't have any tangible/intangible assets which tells quite a lot about the socialist system in general... They obviously have 10x less assets.
>>53631870 Democratic states have some planning capabilities because there exists institutions outside of the democracy. Mid term is 5-10 years, long terms is 20+. Most states live on 4 year cycles, with insane concentrations of effort during year 7-8 if there is a reelection.
Its a very unhealthy pattern, and it produces shit like gradually moving towards permanent disarmment and being super open to EU & NATO because thats another 5 years a politician could gain pension from.
>>53631917 $250-350 is a typical range of rental costs here in Moscow. Given the fact average salaries here range from $600 to $1000, most people feel reluctant to rent a room/apartments unless they do it with gf/bf/friends
You do realize that statement that something is "arbitrary" because it's western is very dull. There is a big button for downloading the info package about that study which tells you how the study has been conducted and based on those things you could actually criticize it. But when you just revert to arguing your point with idle talk you are just proving my point.
>>53632051 >square meters/square feet I don't remember, sorry. But it's a good size, most live with a gf or bf in these size. Tiny apartments are uncommon here.
>1,2k euro for 1 bedroom That's crazy. Last rat hole I lived in downtown had a rent increase to 1,300. Worse place I ever lived. Bed bugs, no repairs, tenants steal your laundry, and hobo vomit on the side walk each morning.
>>53632221 For the average wages that pricing makes sense. In rural parts of Canada rent for a single bedroom sits around 500 to 700 dollars for single units I think. People can't afford more.
It's a bit more common for people to live here alone but most try to get room mates in a two bedroom apartment so they can afford a car and roof over their head.
>>53628498 Liberals are biased towards Democrats oddly enough.
They hated Bush for low oil prices and our CO2, 2001-2005. Then when oil prices rose and people started driving less and cars became more fuel efficient, liberals started blaming Bush for high oil prices hurting the poor.
Republicans do the same.
It's really quite pointless to argue politics to people if they don't have an open mind.
>>53631602 It has also led to global warming and massive environmental pollution.
Let's just say there is a balance.
Direct democracy is absolutely retarded. Indirect democracy where the rich control everything and corruption is in the private sector is the least bad system. Russian democracy leads to State corruption.
The benefit of OPEC market share strategy is that it kills the more expensive producers.
Oil production has huge frontal costs, and the loans needed are huge. Also, oil workers will leave oil jobs and forget a lot of the education within a few years. That means that oil isn't just going to stick at $60 a barrel at shale's breakeven. Just like the last 60 years it's going to go from boom to bust.
In a couple years once America and Europe's oil production is in the doldrums OPEC will cut output to raise prices. It'll take the West 3-4 years to get back to our full production again.
For example, oil was $20-30 2000-2005. Once it started averaging $100 2008-2014 fracking slowly grew larger and larger. But it wasn't immediate. The same thing will happen in the future.
>>53620219 >Russia is unusual among the major economies in the way that it relies on energy revenues to drive growth. Containing over 30 percent of the world's natural resources, Russia is the most resource-rich country in the world. Russia has an abundance of oil, natural gas and precious metals, which make up a major share of Russia's exports. As of 2012 the oil-and-gas sector accounted for 16% of the GDP, 52% of federal budget revenues and over 70% of total exports.
Oil's drop of 70% cost Russia about 8% of it's economy. But since Russia now produces more each year their economy only fell 4% in 2015 and probably will fall 1%-2% in 2016.
It'll be hard for them, but sadly, they'll make it. I just hope Putin decides to not run in 2018 and lets the Russian people decide.
>>53620867 Putin is probably the richest man in the entire world.
Putin is in it for personal gains and I think pretty much everything else he does is just to cover that up.
He is without doubt not a good person nor is he good for Russia. Not saying that Russia should accept the multicultural cock, just saying that you can have a conservative leader that isn't a fucking gangster.
>Not saying that Russia should accept the multicultural cock, just saying that you can have a conservative leader that isn't a fucking gangster.
Where do you get pro-western liberal from?
I've no source but you've no source either on your thinking that he loves Russia. Personally I think he doesn't give a flying fuck.
As for why I think he is the richest:
He used to fuck the oligarchs over back in the beginning of his reign. Now he doesn't anymore. And the oligarchs are still around. This implies either they've got something on him, or more likely, he has them where he wants them. A piece of the cake(probably quite large) and obedience.
>>53634404 It doesn't really matter if Crimea is rightfully Russian or not, in annexing Crimea he didn't exactly help Russia's economy long term(not because of the sanctions, they are quite meme) but because aggressive behavior like that has a tendency to scare off investors.
>>53634787 It's complicated We are one of the largest producers, but we can't refine our shitty oil. So we export our shitty oil and import better oil Our recession is caused by falling commodities prices (soy, iron, etc) and a utter failure of government policies
>>53636368 >economy dependent upon? Nothing specifically, Trade (imports+exports) makes up 20-25% of our gdp, so we can't >>53636443 This doesn't say anything. Exports are a very small part of our economy, specially when we compare it to the world average.
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