>>53594132 It's supposed to keep women from being pregnant before marriage you retard and marriage in itself only exists so you can tell who's the father of a child without a doubt, because if you could not then the men wouldn't have any reason to take care of that child and the woman Marriage exists to protect women and chilren
>>53594174 >And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:19
>>53593860 Bitch, I fuck a guy while he calls me "Daddy" while fantasizing we're father & son and in my free time I masturbate to anthropomorphic animals in sexual positions. So am I a heathen to you or not?
>>53594462 >Inconsistencies in the biblical text had to be explained away; errors,redundancies,absurdities, or anything shocking, indecent or unworthy of divine inspiration had to be removed. Every verse was regarded as potentially independent of the others and capable of interpretation without any reference to its context. It was necessary largely to ignore the historical background. Rules were made whereby the natural, historical sense of any text could be evaded, and sometimes a quite unnatural, symbolic sense could be read in. A cautious, Torah-directed form of allegory was born. Several examples of it can be found in the New Testament.1-Cambridge History of the Bible Vol 1, pg 412.
>Catholics >Hey! You orthodox guys need to stop worshiping all those saints! Those aren't God! You're idol worshipers! >Quick, put up more statues of Mary I respect protestants and Orthodoxers, but Catholics are always shit tier.
>After all, in their exegesis the early Church theologians neither received the Bible as a 'Bible without notes' nor interpreted it in a vacuum. They received along with the Bible a tradition of interpreting it for a worshipping community and they proceeded to interpret it for a worshipping community. The study of the Bible as a scientific discipline to be carried on for its own sake was very far from their thought, and at all times has been, one suspects, a mere will-o'-the-wisp. This does not mean that the Fathers sacrificed everything for the sake of the edification of the faithful or for the consistent articulation of a doctrinal system. They sacrificed too much for these ends, but they were not unconscious of limits and controls on this process imposed by the Bible itself. Their purpose in exegesis was nevertheless purely practical, and we do not understand their exegesis until we understand this. They began the story of the Church's relations with the Bible, in which the Bible and the life of the Church were to interact for all the centuries to come, each correcting, deepening, fertilising the other. They inaugurated the Church's dance with the Bible, fancifully perhaps, but not irresponsibly, perhaps erratically, but at least gaily.-Cambridge History of the Bible, Vol 1, pg 453.
I'm so sorry Protestants but there's no Sola Scriptura in Early Christianity from the beginning.
I feel like the term "Worship" is too vague and can mean different things in different contexts. We do pray to Our Lady and ask for her intercession. We do deeply respect and honor her. However, we do not consider her to be God. She is a human, God's greatest creation but a creation nonetheless.
>>53594684 What bible is that? There is more than one protestant bible. I'm sure there are some versions that are more out there. You know Mormons call themselves Protestants.
I read King James.
>>53594925 >>53594858 >>53594813 Catholics worship Mary. She's in your prayers, she's depicted and literally prayed at constantly. And then you accuse Orthodox Christians of worshiping saints. It's absurd. They worship saints less than you worship Mary. If you want to tell me you only venerate her, you're just splitting hairs.
If you only venerate Mary, then you also only venerate God. You treat them exactly the same. Think on the times your church references Mary and the times they reference God. With Catholics, you can literally exchange the words "Mary" and "God" and it won't seem strange.
>>53594987 >Catholics never said this... It's one of the core reasons for the schism.
>>53595103 >>53595139 >spiritual patrons >"to ask" >seeking help from other mortals >not believing god when he said man was created in His image
>"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. >No one comes to the Father except through me >No one >not even Mary Catholics will go to such lengths to justify their blatant disregard for the Word of God. >>53595193 this. they literally have Mary in their prayers. How cucked up is that?
>>53595223 >not understand how Christian prayer works Don't play that card with me. I come from a Christian family. Don't be deceived by my flag. I know about Christianity just as much as the next guy does.
>>53595450 So because early Christians did things a certain way that makes it alright? S M H Jesus LITERALLY L I T E R A L L Y gave people shit for being so conventional and not actually understanding what stuff meant. >following tradition >ignoring the Word of God because people have been doing it wrong all along >t. Catholic
>>53595476 Good meme. >>53595526 >cite a scholar I'm not nearly that invested in this argument to do that much research. This is just an off-hand 4chan discussion. Do you really expect me to be arsed enough to look up sources? m9 I'm not writing a dissertation here
More proof that Jesus and the Apostles are being hypocrites because of "muh tradition".
>So because early Christians did things a certain way that makes it alright? No but it does show that the practice of saintly intercession and veneration was present in Christianity's infancy which destroys your unchristian "Yandere Jesus and I" cult
>>53595326 >Early Christians More like post-early. There were tons of different scripts floating around before the Catholic, Latin bible was compiled. It's as arbitrary to say the Catholic bible is right as it would be to say any protestants bible is right.
>Catholic Church >Started by Jesus Christ himself >Lead by the successor to saint peter and appointed by God >Oldest Church >Biggest Christian Church >Richest Christian Church >Proper ways of doing things >Promoted education and art throughout history >Does a lot of good in the world >Just wants you to be happy and Worship God.
>Protestants >Started by a nigger with some nails and some fattass who wanted 6 wives >Does more harm than good >Consist of various cult some of African tribe level >Biggest cult is lead by some cunt who thinks God appointed her >Basically an edgy fedora tipping church that just never died off. >Does not respect their fellow man >Promotes wrong facts and denies scientific facts because muh angles and adam and eve. >Northern Ireland
Protestants are heretic, Orthodox are bros and Roman Catholics are master race. Enjoy Hell
anyway, there is a reason Protestants broke off from Catholics. They had lost their way. They no longer saw the Light. same with early Christians. They corrupted the message and the Word of the Lord. Just because a group of people that were on this planet before us did things a certain way doesn't make it the right way to do things.
anyway, I don't really care enough about this because Protestants in this day and age are just as misguided as their Catholic brethen. the Protestant movement was promising in its early days but then it ended up being shite. I don't even know why i popped in. I don't pray or read the Bible anymore.
>>53595743 Too bad, if you want wisdom, you must seek it as I did.
I was an ignorant Prottie like you but once I took the plunge into these works and the Fathers, I realized just how ridiculous it is!
>>53595745 I never even said the Bible of the Early Christians are Catholic Bibles. There's tons of differing lists of what is and is not Scripture despite their overall skeletal agreement on most books. This destroys the 66 canon of Prottieism.
>>53595819 I think the protestant argument would be that /you/ are heretics. Over the years, the Catholic church hasn't preserved some sacred 'Christian way.' Historically, the Catholic church has been a powerful agent of change in Christianity. Catholicism is bogged down by revisionist appendices and extended literature (seven deadly sins, for example) and by the time the Protestants decided to split off, had served as a political institution rather than a religious one for hundreds of years.
If you call being a money-grubbing political machine "the preservation of Christianity," I don't want to be a Christian.
>>53595996 >I never even said the Bible of the Early Christians are Catholic Bibles. There's tons of differing lists of what is and is not Scripture despite their overall skeletal agreement on most books. This destroys the 66 canon of Prottieism. I misunderstood. Yeah, I don't really believe in sola scriptura, myself. But I'm a modern guy. (source >2016)
>>53596093 Ah, accusing Christians of not being Christians because they don't agree with you. I see you're returning to your Catholic roots :^)
>>53596201 >Ah, accusing Christians of not being Christians because they don't agree with you. I see you're returning to your Catholic roots :^) Just trying to save your soul man. Don't forget your book on creationism and call Charles Darwin satanic.
>>53596314 I'm not a Christian. I come from a Christian family though. I was brought up in a Christian household but I don't believe in God and all that anymore. I still feel like I'm a part of it because of how I was brought up.
No you are not equal. Mary was given special graces by God, including to be his Mother. God gave us Christ through Mary. He didn't give us Christ through you. Christ gave Mary to be the mother of all humanity he didn't give you to be the mother of all humanity. Cmon guy.
>>53596444 You do realize people can pray to dead people without it being worship? Every heard someone in your family asking a dead relative to watch over someone? Catholics follow the Holy trinity we Worship God the father, son and Holy spirit but praying to the Virgin Mary, the Saints or even dead relatives is just like having a chat or asking a favor.
Anyways it varies from country to country, some Catholics don't give a hoot about Mary. Shes popular in Ireland, appears at crossroads a lot.
>>53596352 >Now then how can Protestants justify their innovations? As a way to run away from the perversions the Catholic church implemented. Just because there isn't an absolute truth doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get close.
>>53596391 Are you implying that all protestants are southern bible belters? Bruh, these >impies
>>53596633 >You do realize people can pray to dead people without it being worship? Every heard someone in your family asking a dead relative to watch over someone? and I consider those people to be blasphemers as well. >"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. so do protestants >but praying to the Virgin Mary, the Saints or even dead relatives is just like having a chat or asking a favor. yeah that doesn't sit well with me. also >favor fuck off yank
>>53596716 All being a protestant means is that your church is from the Catholic, western tradition, but broke away from the hierarchy. That runs the gambit. I won't sit here and tell you that all Protestant churches are better than the Catholic church, but I will easily tell you that some are.
>>53596656 >No absolute truth >Consequences dire if cannot even abide by it >No way of even knowing the truth >Protcucks can't even agree with each other on the truth >Irenaeus in the 2nd century notes how this is a mark of a false church
>>53596704 I'm not defending Protestantism. Just because I'm attacking Catholics doesn't mean I'm saying Protestants are better. In fact, I said quite the opposite here >>53595915 > long term exposure to Protestantism does to the mind. but I don't identify with Protestants either. I do think there are aspects of Catholicism that aren't quite right. And same goes for the Protestant belief. I tend to criticise both and you're not going to offend me by lumping me with one group. I don't really identify with either one. I am not a Christian
>>53596934 the truth? bit of a loaded question. How do we even know Christianity is "true" to begin with, let alone Catholicism and Protestantism? >>53597010 >unlike your kind. lol what is my kind? Hahahaha man calm down. we're all just having a discussion here. Why are you so inclined to compartmentalise people into these binary categories of catholics and protestants?
"Truth" in the context of my argument is how Christianity originally is. We get insights into this through the writings of the Church Fathers from the beginning to later dates.
>Why are you so inclined to compartmentalise people into these binary categories of catholics and protestants? You are a faggot that msirepresent Catholic and TRUE Christian teaching on intercession and veneration of the Saints for one you disgusting cultist!
See above. Did the Blessed Virgin Mary run around calling people "protocucks"? No. Did Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, or Pope St. John Paul II? No.
Promote the truth with genuine love, condemn heresy where you find it, explain why its flawed, don't resort to using religious differences as a bludgeon to try and hurt others. That's not what is taught in the Catholic Faith.
>>53597346 That's the same level of absurdity as the statement that America is culturally only 300 years old. We are all the collective history of our past. Renaming or rebranding does not erase the history from before the rebrand. Protestants didn't pop out of the ground.
But Christianity is not polytheistic, so they don't qualify as Gods. There is only one, triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). Then the Saints and Angels who were created by him and recieve grace from him, through the Virgin Mary, who can intercede on our behalf.
If a polytheist would call them gods is aside from the point, because Christians don't recognize them as such.
>>53597291 man you sure take this very personally. calm down m9 again, i am NOT a protestant. so I don't know why you keep using these words as though they're supposed to offend me? are you asking me as to what Christianity was originally meant to be? I don't think I can answer that without being factually incorrect and i'm rather drained right now. moreover, regardless of what I say, you're going to give me an arsepained response so I'd rather not. here's a tip though: try not to get worked up over internet discussions. I have no idea why you're so angry. >>53597327 it's a meme 2bh lad. >favor American spelling of "favour". He's from Ireland so it's a common response on /brit/ idk if they still say it.
Tertullion fell into heresy the same as Marcion. And he, unlike the Blessed Virgin Mary, wasn't perfect. He didn't say all Marcionites were Marciocucks. He explained why it was wrong. Ecumenism is hard. Instructing the ignorant and bearing all wrongs patiently is hard. But it is what we are called to do.
If you don't care about ecumenism and you don't care about bringing people into the Church, then you aren't a servant of the Church. Don't use the Church's teachings as a way of feeling superior to others or as a way to insult people.
That's called "being a jerk". That's called "being a cyber-bully".
>>53597559 >Protestants did pop out from the ground and Americans who were descendants of the so called pilgrims are able to recognize that they didn't exist prior to the Natives there. I don't even understand what you're trying to say. I'd say I think you're trolling, but you seem genuine.
>>53597877 It's just as absurd to say Catholics are the original inhabitants of Christianity. It's even absurd to say they've been there longer. Protestant groups have existed in Germany nearly since Catholicism was introduced, they just didn't go by their own moniker like they do now. Ideas don't spawn out of nothing. Moreover, Catholics' ideas and traditions have changed over time. Why does keeping a name for a long time give you the right to be the masters of the Christian tradition? Protip: it doesn't.
>Now do you get the point inbred Why is it that Catholics can't have arguments without getting so upset? I feel argument and questioning is antithetical to Catholicism.
>>53597949 ok i know i'm going to regret responding to you but >>53597949 >You magically change to become a fucking fedora no? i never claimed to be a protestant. in fact, one of my earliest posts ITT says i'm an ex-protestant >>53594858 >I used to be a Protestcuck yeah but I'm not. In fact, I'm not even Christian. I was just brought up in a Christian household. Okay, this will be my last post, I promise.
>>53598058 Here you misrepresent my point. I fucking noted how even before the Reformation, the seeds for Protestantism were sowed. But they were sowed during the Middle Ages, not the period of Early Christianity. Get that into your head!
>Moreover, Catholics' ideas and traditions have changed over time So? Scripture + Tradition-Church Fathers all believed in this from the beginning Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist-Unanimous consensus amongst the Church Fathers from the beginning Free Will-Same No Sola Fide-Same!
Now, where are Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide in Early Christianity Protestshit?
>>53598257 >Here you misrepresent my point. I fucking noted how even before the Reformation, the seeds for Protestantism were sowed. But they were sowed during the Middle Ages, not the period of Early Christianity. Get that into your head! I understand the difficulties of keeping a calm head during debate, but I assure you it's to your benefit as well as mine. I would argue that they were sown earlier. There have always been doctrinal difference between Germanic and Romance Christians. Aryanism for example. Even if that connection weren't valid, the history of Germanic cultures that assuredly influences Protestantism (as Romance cultures influence Catholicism) is as old as any other.
>memeing that Jesus founded the Catholic church There's no real evidence for this. As for an historian should be concerned, this is a myth.
I don't personally believe in sola scriptura. I already said that. But I do believe revising the bible to remove late medieval influences is sensible, assuming you don't believe in the divinity of the Catholic Church.
>Even if that connection weren't valid, the history of Germanic cultures that assuredly influences Protestantism (as Romance cultures influence Catholicism) is as old as any other. Just because something influenced "X" does it mean that it is "X". It's just that whoever came up with "X" got inspiration or influences from that something. And again, the point is that Protestantism is an innovation to Christianity, not Genuine.
Let that sink into your brain for a fucking moment.
>There's no real evidence for this. As for an historian should be concerned, this is a myth. All I did was simply showed similarities between the Early Church and Catholicism.
>But I do believe revising the bible to remove late medieval influences is sensible, assuming you don't believe in the divinity of the Catholic Church. So? I believe this too, just that one must be sure that it is set back on the right path, not give birth to some Frankenstein's Monster which the Reformation produced
>>53598738 And why isn't Catholicism an innovation to Christianity? If a later innovation seeks to go back to their image of Christianity before the first innovation, is it less valid than the first innovation? I would think more valid.
>>53598831 >If a later innovation seeks to go back to their image of Christianity before the first innovation, is it less valid than the first innovation? I would think more valid. And this of course Protestantism fails so miserably at doing!
>And why isn't Catholicism an innovation to Christianity? Did I say it isn't? The point is that they are at least closer to True Christianity than the Proddestwats!
>No such thing. Period. Citation needed faggot. No serious historian would even take this shitty claim seriously.
>>53598945 >And this of course Protestantism fails so miserably at doing! I think that's a sweeping generalisation. As I've said, there are a ton of different takes on Christianity that fall under the name "Protestantism." I think modern American Presbyterianism is pretty on the money, and I laud Episcopalians for retaining elements of Catholicism while doing away with structure, which I consider innately un-Christ-like
>Catholicism is a lot closer to true Christianity than Protestantism See above.
>Citations needed faggot It's not that I need to provide one, it's that you do. There isn't any real evidence to suggest there was a centralised hierarchy from an early point on.
>Your page screencap Plenty of Protestants have churches run by groups of elders with one individual being more prominent. If Jesus left no instruction for how his church should be built (which, contrary to Catholic myth, he didn't) would it not be most sensible to retain the structure that Jesus saw no problem with? If you accuse Protestants of running Frankenstein shit shows, why give me evidence that the Catholics distorted the way things were done in the time of Christ by doling too much power to a central administrator?
I've gotta go to class. I'll read whatever you write.
>>53599317 >Sweeping generalization You mean they don't believe in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide?
Come on surely you can't be this stupid!
>American Presbyterianism is pretty on the money Calvinism is ironically closer to Gnostics who also believe in Predestination and see no significance in the bread and wine in the Eucharist.
>I laud Episcopalians for retaining elements of Catholicism while doing away with structure Wow...stop embarrassing yourself. Anglicans and Episcopalians have the same structure as Catholicism with Bishops, Archbishops and all that shit.
>There isn't any real evidence to suggest there was a centralised hierarchy from an early point on. You mean like the Jerusalem Church with James on top? Fuck off!
>Plenty of Protestants have churches run by groups of elders with one individual being more prominent. Nope, false. That sort of structure is the primitive version of modern Catholic hierarchy dumbass! The prominent individual is the fucking leader who is in charge. Kinda like the Bishop being the head of the priests!
>If Jesus left no instruction for how his church should be built (which, contrary to Catholic myth, he didn't) would it not be most sensible to retain the structure that Jesus saw no problem with? You mean the one which is basically the primitive version of the Catholic Church's structure?
>If you accuse Protestants of running Frankenstein shit shows, why give me evidence that the Catholics distorted the way things were done in the time of Christ by doling too much power to a central administrator? Here you are being moronic. Remember, I never even said Catholicism is free from innovations. The point is that Catholicism is simply closer compared to Protestantism which is just pure shit!
Insofar, none of my arguments addressed and no proofs shown that the Church Fathers and the Early Church had Protshit beliefs. Why? Because they were new shit added!
>>53595819 >Cathloic Church >Started by Jesus Christ himself My biggest kek. Jesus established the church that later evolved into 5 patriarchates, that formed the Pentarchy (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch) With the fall of the latter 3 into muslim hands, only Rome and Constantinople remained. Then, the patriarch of Rome (a.k.a. the pope) went power hungry and decided he was more important than the patriarch of Constantinople. Thus, the catholic church is as old as the orthodox church. The oldest surviving branch of christianity is the coptic church, which is old as fuck.
>>53604574 You're not supposed to just sin on purpose knowing you can go confession, because then you are not really sorry. It counts when you try not to sin and stay close to God, but in a moment of weakness or whatever you sin. Afterwards you seek forgiveness and try not to do it again. You will at some point, but to put it simply it's the effort that counts.
>>53604667 >You're not supposed to just sin on purpose knowing you can go confession, because then you are not really sorry. I get that - to me it just seems like at best either a vicious cycle >sin - repent - forgiveness - sin or getting your cake and eating it too, ie. a free pass to sin and then still get those sins absolved and get into heaven.
Surely just NOT SINNING or at least trying not to makes more sense (as you said I guess with being close to God)
>>53604944 It can be a vicious cycle. And in that case, it's up to the sinner to try and put a stop to it.
I had a problem with watching porn and jacking off. I would do it every day, and eventually say "I need to put a stop to this because it's making me feel like shit, and disrupting my faith." Then within a week I would say "Okay, I can masturbate because that's not a sin in itself, but no porn." But then before long I was making allowances – "I'll look at photos but no videos" – and back to my old self again. And repeat again and again. There came a time where I had to draw the line and admit that masturbation was the cause of my sins and weak faith, and it had to stop.
>>53604574 God knows humans are too weak to resist sinning, and his love and forgiveness are infinite. You keep fucking up, but God doesn't give a shit so long as you're actually truly sorry and make an effort to not be such a piece of shit.
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