>Basil's distrust of the native Byzantine guardsmen, whose loyalties often shifted with fatal consequences, as well as the proven loyalty of the Varangians, many of whom had previously served in Byzantium, led the Emperor to employ them as his personal guardsmen.
>Other Germanic peoples shared with the Vikings a tradition of faithful (to death if necessary) oath-bound service.
>Be a Greek King
>Have to hire Icelanders, Swedes, and Norwegians to guard you and be your personal combatants on the battlefield because you can't trust your own people.
Why are Greeks and Italians so treacherous and untrustworthy? Is it in their blood?
>After Bolli reached the rank of Officer in the Varangian Guard, he returned to Iceland with tremendous wealth. After he returned, he refused to wear any clothes other than those made of scarlet or fur and all his weapons were inlaid with gold. He brought with him twelve men, all dressed in scarlet and rode on gilt saddles… though Bolli was peerless among them, he was called Bolli the Great…
>Why are Greeks and Italians so treacherous and untrustworthy? Is it in their blood?
You tell me. They could have defeated the turks but they didn't want to pay denps.
>The Almogavar campaign in Asia Minor to drive back Turks took place in 1303 and 1304, and began with a series of great military victories that drove them back from Philadelphia to Cyzicus and in doing so brought great destruction to the Anatolian landscape. When the Almogavars insisted in receiving the agreed payment, the Byzantine Emperor refused. In 1305, Roger de Flor and his lieutenants were assassinated by orders of the Emperor while meeting to discuss terms on their compensation.
>This assassination may have been instigated by Genoese merchants, who were conspiring to keep their own position of influence and power.
>This betrayal resulted in the surviving Almogavars, who resisted for two years a siege in Gallipoli and concentrated on the region of Thrace, leading off the Catalan Revenge, a war of extermination and systematic looting against the civilian population of the Byzantine Empire
See what happens when you don't pay denps to catalans?
>being a non-white near me
There will always be non-whites near you because Poles aren't white.
>one of the whitest people in the world and original europeans
>aren't white because some shitposter said so
>one of the whitest people in the world
H A H A H A H A!!!
I can't stop laughing lad, tears are streaming down my face right now.
This is true but pagan Germanics were more valued as mercenaries over other groups because of their tradition of sticking to oaths to the death.
It's why the Franks gave the Norse Normandy.
That does not say that Jews are from Italy, not even close. The the theory suggests that the Ashkenazi lineage is not pure Semitic an suggests a possible reason for this. That is all. Considering the time period of the initial diaspora and the Judaeo-Roman wars it is only logical that they would have migrated into the Roman Empire. 0/10 M8
I am laughing as well tbqh, fucking plumbers
No, there's evidence that Ashkenazis are strongly Italian, especially maternally.
Yes, it means that Jews came through Italy, and they mixed. But that doesn't dismiss the fact that the Jews that /pol/ doesn't like are very Italian.
We are very selfish. When we see a weak ruler we don't want to protect him, we are naturally inclined to kill him and take his place, it is only natural.
That's why the Slavs too were frequently hired as guards. The Balkan Slavs even had the reputation of being the "the most courageous and violent" among the Arabs.
But it's true that white people in general are people of word unlike the southerners who try to rip you off whenever there's a chance
"I have seen the Rus as they came on their merchant journeys and encamped by the Itil. I have never seen more perfect physical specimens, tall as date palms, blond and ruddy; they wear neither tunics nor kaftans, but the men wear a garment which covers one side of the body and leaves a hand free. Each man has an axe, a sword, and a knife, and keeps each by him at all times. Each woman wears on either breast a box of iron, silver, copper, or gold; the value of the box indicates the wealth of the husband. Each box has a ring from which depends a knife. The women wear neck-rings of gold and silver. Their most prized ornaments are green glass beads. They string them as necklaces for their women."
Ibn Fadlan in 922
Yeah, the Ashkenazi may have a strong matrilineal connection with actual Latins, not Italians. The male lineage is still Semetic. What the study suggests is that because lineage i the Judaic religion is traced through the mother these Ashkenazi cannot be traced back to the Middle East directly from the Maternal side alone. It does not suggest that the Ashkenazi are more Italian than they are Semitic or anything of the sort. You are inferring too much from this article. I am not even going to discuss the validity of the study itself. Yes maybe the Jews that /pol/ hates are genetically more Aryan than Semitic, what is your point, it is not their genes that are hated, it is the culture, and the culture is fully Judaic.
>Ibn Fadlan in 922
I'm sorry to break it to you but this guy was describing the Slavic Rus', especially as he talks about the women.
You are talking out of your ass, burger
>it's 'fuckingwesternersstealinghistoryagain' episode
Yeah I know, but I don't think we can blame that on a couple of rulers. Think about it, if the ruler was weak and he was killed in order to be replaced by a stronger ruler then surely the nation will also be stronger. It is when this does not happen and idiots try to protect the weak King and cause a civil war that the country is truly weakened. I feel we would have survived longer if we had even less loyalty really, and less civil wars too. Perhaps I am mad though, :-P
I mean the Greeks and Romans made this happen (pic related) whilst doing all that backstabbing, civil warring and, expanding and being invaded at the same time. I might add a long time before anyone else too. Are you sure our paradigm was wrong for the era?
>I'm sorry to break it to you but this guy was describing the Slavic Rus', especially as he talks about the women.
"Most Western scholars believe them to be a group of Varangians, specifically Norsemen."
kek stay mad
Basques are basically migrants from anatolia from 10,000bc that settled in spain, your "european admixture" is completely subjective
Kek, this guy want to be German, what a cuck.
The Russ were Norse, end of story, they conquered the Slavs and became their Kings. Slavs are just glorified Slaves.
I can post meme maps too.
Odin is just one name for a God which was in every culture and every region.
You seem very well educated on the subject. Maybe try educating yourself on paying the denbts?
Maybe because he was a Norseman himself. But he didn't cherish his heritage so much so he himself praised Slavic gods, look at his pantheon.
They were Norse mostly in name, their Norse culture got lost in a generation of mixing with the natives.
Also, the later Russians continued the tradition of ship burial.
No. While it's true that all Gods in Europe come from the original Indo-European religion, they all have differences because of separation and time.
Odin and Zeus might seem similar on the surface, but when you look at the details, they are not.
No comeback so you simply make a shitpost regarding something that has nothing to do with the Greek individual.
If you have a different source materiel, go ahead and enlighten us, otherwise, you know, rage.
It's a piece of Russian art depicting Odin you idiot!
The whole point being the mixing of Slavic and Norse element. Don't get mad so quickly guys
You mean that they stopped being Norse the SAME generation that the Norse conquered the area? I really doubt it.
Vladmir might have been half Slav, but his army was composed entirely of Norsemen.
>All Wends were in cahoots with Iranics. Vandals roamed Africa together with Alans. Slovenes made Wends Slavs together with Antes ( their descendants the Andi still live as a small tribe in the Caucasus today, they're muslims now though).
Truth accepted by academics today
read Florin Curta
also read Tacitus, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Winefried Paul, Jordanes... the classic sources, it's pretty obvious
instead of quoting wikipedia, which is full of contradictory information.
Also, did you know the Latvian flag is the flag of the local Vents (Wends) tribe (near Ventpils)?
In fact only Wends who didn't accept Old Slovene (Sklavenoi) language can today still call themselved Wends.
Poles used to be Lechites who spoke Germanic, but after adopting Slavonic they became Slavs. Wends that didn't adopt it, known today as Balts, are in fact the true Wends.
Nevertheless, Finns and Estonians still call Russians Wends. The Estonian and Finnish names for Russia - Venemaa and Venäjä - originate from the name of the Venedi/Venethi
(Also, Lithuanians call Belarusians 'guddi' which refers to Goths).
The one thing Poles have on other Slavs, is that they really were the Vandals of antiquity.
Zeus is equivalent to Thor, not Odin. They are both thunder Gods that fought against a primordial personification of Chaos, Jörmungandr for Thor and Typhon for Zeus. As far as I am aware that is the common abstraction regarding those two.
The Lugi(i)/Lygii/Lugiones/Lougoi (Lech) aka Wandili were composed of several tribes with similar habits (Przeworsk culture, cremation) one of them were called the Silesii, synonymous to the Nahanarvali mentioned by Tacitus.
The trunk Wend-/Wand-/Vent-/Vand- present in Venedi/Venethi/Wends/Vandals/Wandili/Winnili is Germanic and means wanderer (wand-erer). Tacitus mentions amongst others how they liked to travel great distances on foot.
Their alliance (in reality they had to pay tribute to) nomadic Iranics from Sarmatians and Alans to (probably Iranic) Avars lasted for many centuries. Title in Africa was "King of the Vandals and the Alans". The buttbuddies Slovenes/Antes etc...
During 6th century Slovenes and Antes decided to unify Wends by making them adopt Slovene language, from then on they are called Slavs.
Those that didn't adopt Slovene are called Balts now.
vestern.: The Sarmatian influences predate the Hunnic invasions.
All Wends were in cahoots with Iranics. Vandals roamed Africa together with Alans. Slovenes made Wends Slavs together with Antes ( their descendants the Andi still live as a small tribe in the Caucasus today, they're muslims now though).
Wends was a germanic term, but they used it to refer to themselves (see Samo's Wend kingdom). Romans considered Wends, Lugii/Vandals, Peucini/Bastarnae a fifth kind of germanics who were strongly influenced by Sarmatian blood and habits.
Pre-6th century Wends, especially those bordering Germanic tribes, often adopted Germanic language and culture. Lugii (Lechites) aka Wandali spoke Germanic and prayed to "Godan" and Frea.
After part of the Lugi migrated (including part of Silesii) the Wends from the East filled their place. That was the time when Slovenes went around pushing their language upon the Wend, making them Slavs.
You can differentiate Wends from Germanics to the fact that they cremated their dead. German-speaking Lugii/Vandals and Bastarnae also did that, while 'true' Germanics did not. Early Slavs continued to cremate their dead.
Lugii: Przeworsk culture (3th century BC - 5th century AD) between upper Vistula and Oder extending to south towards middle Danube = Wandal/Wend --> cremated their dead
] In the late 5/6th century, the Prague-Korchak culture appears in the Vistula basin -> Wends from the east (who adopted Slovene) = early Slavs ; also cremation
Source and recommended reading (most recent authority on the subject)
Florin Curta, The making of the Slavs history & archeology 500 - 700 AD
Except my maps were created by the head geneticist at Harvard and you dont even seem to be making a coherent point...
Odin was the All-Father just like Zeus was.
This is why comparative mythology is bullshit. There is no Germanic equivalent for Zeus, and vice versa for Greek equivalents to Germanic gods.
>but his army was composed entirely of Norsemen.
Highly doubtful as he had a council of "boyars" which in Slavic literally means "fighters"
I doubt there was such a strong case distinguishing each other at that time. This whole Slav vs Germanic shit is a product of later romanticist revision. The very fact that the Norse disappeared in a generation and didn't left much on a linguistic basis speaks of a merging with Slavic ethnos of that place.
Do you even understand how those autosomal percentages were calculated?
These percentages are based off comparing modern population groups to the genetics of the main ancient populations of europe. You are just posting arbitrary autosomal maps based on subjective calculations and those that lump huge macro groups of diverse and unrelated populations together, also nice far-east admixture
Interesting, I will read on this and draw my own conclusions. Not sold on this, here is an example why.
>FYROM who are clearly Slavs claim to be Macedonian and furthermore aspire to direct lineage from the ancient Kingdom of Macedon.
>The Turks are spread through most of Asia and established a number of Empires throughout History.
Both these faggots claim to be inheritors of previous traditions without actually having any racial links to them. Sure they live in places where some ancient peoples also lived but that does not imply continuity. Doing DNA analyses and actual migratory studies can clarify whether or not there is a connection. Just because someone uses a nomenclature that is historic to a geographical location has no bearing on any connection between them.
Europe is a melting pot, no History is perfectly clear.
Slavs are notorious for leaving jack shit behind so even if they had a huge per-existing culture we don't know anything about it, they are educated guesses, that is all.
Again, that's really wrong.
The way the Varangian Guards who were clearly Norsemen considering we have evidence from Norse and Greek writings, got to Greece in the first place was because Vladimir gave a portion of his army to Basil the King of Byzantium.
We also have two Icelandic Sagas talking about Norsemens lives in Rus during that time.
>fucking german scum and their germanocentric theory
lel leave the past behind
There are huge archaeological projects discovering more and more about the Slavic prehistory, explaining the "historical absence" which is the view of the 19th century.
Don't make it into a retarded Slavs vs Germanics fight.
We have bigger problems to solve, like the muslim invasion, the cuckening of the west, feminism, alcoholism...
What the fuck are you even trying to say here?
Julius Caesar, Herod the great and the Julio-Claudian rulers also had Germanic bodyguards
>By the time Caligula's loyal Germanic guard responded, the emperor was already dead. The Germanic guard, stricken with grief and rage, responded with a rampaging attack on the assassins, conspirators, innocent senators and bystanders alike.
Germans were unique in there dual pantheon and how much they allowed of the native non indo european relgion into their own, I'm not saying the greeks also didnt pick up a native influence but the germanics was more pronounced which is why it doesnt exactly add up with the others
In a lot of things sure, I mean you have thousands of years of divergence, however that is what is considered by Historians to be the equivalents. They draw from the Sky Father, Dius Pater the Proto-Indo-European original God.
Here is an introduction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion
>tfw no Wanda queen gf
I know this, I said it in my first post m8.
I was just saying that all Gods that originate from the Indo-European religion are not the same. Yes they have the same origin, but they are different because of the divergence.
It's like saying blacks are the same as scandis.
WHY ARE WE SO BASED LADS ? EVEN TURKIC MERCENARIES ARE BASED AS FUCK.
I would love to, got any sources to share or am I going to have to find which article you are referring to?
Or perhaps you remember what it says and you can share with us so we can blast it.
Yeah, you need to receive a transplant from someone within your own race.
Also I suggest you read about the various extinct hominid lineage at varying amounts in separate races though neanderthals, Denisovans and other yet named species
Yes, when people exam the race of an individual through their thumb print patterns, skull types and other physical features it is completely cultural. The genetic imprint of neanderthals on europeans and asians and denisovans on asians and australian aboriginals is also cultural.
You need to get a fucking transplant from someone that has near identical fucking DNA, that is why you have a much higher chance of a full match from relatives, especially children or parents. Not to do with race but genetic divergence.
The extinct hominid lineage is what would be refered to as different races, ot someone with different skin color, someone with completely different one structure etc. There is a big difference between the DNA of extinct Hominids and Homo Sapiens than there is between homo-Sapiens. To make things even clearer for you, there is greater genetic drift between white individuals than there is between whites and blacks in general.
Indeed, Varangians were brought to both Russia and Turkey, but...
That means Norwegian, and I guess you are aware of this fact. In 870, some Norwegian sailors bore what-you-call Iceland.
this post, it must be bait but here goes:
>Yes, when people exam the race of an individual through their thumb print patterns, skull types and other physical features it is completely cultural.
All individuals have different finger print patterns, irises physical features etc. People with less genetic divergence, i.e. have common ancestry will inadvertently be similar looking. Skull shape and size was used in the 19th-20th century and is now considered useless.
>The genetic imprint of neanderthals on europeans and asians and denisovans on asians and australian aboriginals is also cultural.
I am not sure what this has to do with divergence within the Homo-Sapiens Sapiens species but whatever.
>All individuals have different finger print patterns, irises physical features etc. People with less genetic divergence, i.e. have common ancestry will inadvertently be similar looking. Skull shape and size was used in the 19th-20th century and is now considered useless.
No forensic examiners use both in criminal investigations all the time, of course there is genetic difference with in racial groups but there are also race wide patterns
>he extinct hominid lineage is what would be refered to as different races, ot someone with different skin color, someone with completely different one structure etc. There is a big difference between the DNA of extinct Hominids and Homo Sapiens than there is between homo-Sapiens. To make things even clearer for you, there is greater genetic drift between white individuals than there is between whites and blacks in general.
Different races of people mixed with different species of Hominids, how can you claim there is no such thing as race when an african is missing the genetic admixture of two different species that all non africans have and which are found at varying frequencies according to race.
It's absolutely ridiculous to assume race doesn't exist because of genetic drift in between individuals when you have some races that are literal hybrids.
>(Also, Lithuanians call Belarusians 'guddi' which refers to Goths).
But that's wrong. It's etymology is tracable to word gudėti meaning to start speaking in different dialect, nothing to do with Goths stop making up shit.
The hybridization is tiny less than 1% of White DNA, and not even all whites, just the ones in areas that overlapped with that of the Neanderthals. Using your logic, if i have no Neanderthal DNA markers and you do but we are both white we are actually of different races. This I can agree with to an extent, however it would make you the different race and me the pure blooded Homo-Sapiens. What I m trying to point out to you is that all Homo-Sapiens Sapiens are of a single race and phenotypes are not indications of different race.
The admixture that exists with other hominids proves that there were other human races and due to admixture with them, some of us have varying degrees of DNA from another race of human.
Skull analysis may be good for forensics, it is no longer used to determine whether a skull has a determinable skin color because of its shape or size. Ofc it is still a valid method in other areas of research where it is relevant.
You have read some pertinent information but you have simply drawn the wrong conclusions from it. I myself pointed out at the beginning of this conversation that other Hominids were the actual other races of humanity and not people with different skin colors.
I am not sure what your argument is anymore.
Romans themselves identified Oden with Merkurius and Thor with Jupiter.
It's also believed that earlier it was Tyr(equivalent of Mars) who was chief god of the Germanic pantheon, not Oden.
It's mostly the poor work ethic I've observed from greek diaspora, and the whole "That was invented in greece!" shit people do.
Everything is greek. Can I tell you about how great greece is?
NO YOU CAN SHOW UP TO WORK ON TIME. MUFFUKKA
>he hybridization is tiny less than 1% of White DNA, and not even all whites, just the ones in areas that overlapped with that of the Neanderthals. Using your logic, if i have no Neanderthal DNA markers and you do but we are both white we are actually of different races.
No you completely made that up, the amount of dna is over twice that around 2.4 percent and it is found among all non africans not just europeans since it was introduced when homo sapiens first left africa in the middle east and is quite basal, there few exceptions.
>Skull analysis may be good for forensics, it is no longer used to determine whether a skull has a determinable skin color because of its shape or size.
You just said that race can only be distinguished through phenotype though?
>What I m trying to point out to you is that all Homo-Sapiens Sapiens are of a single race and phenotypes are not indications of different race.
You gave an example where you disproved your own argument, this is an example where race transcends phenotype
>that other Hominids were the actual other races of humanity and not people with different skin colors.
No, they were different species, race is not a species.
I never got that whole it was invented in Greece shit, like just because someone in the same geographical region to the one you were born in invented something that somehow makes you look good? WTF
The work ethic thing, well we are just selfish, if we don't see a direct profit for us we find it hard to be motivated.
Actually m8, you dont even need it to be more than phenotype deep for race to exist, so you and the greek are both wrong
>each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.
>the fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this.
But race is a vague notion, it could have more drastic implications I guess
Sorry boss, won't happen again I promise, please don't fire me!
>No, they were different species, race is not a species.
Well now I know you didn't read those Medical Journals, they use race and species interchangeably.
>No you completely made that up, the amount of dna is over twice that around 2.4 percent and it is found among all non africans not just europeans since it was introduced when homo sapiens first left africa in the middle east and is quite basal, there few exceptions.
Yes I did make that up, because it doesn't really matter what the exact percentage is. it is still very small and it is not even the main point to contest in that sentence.
>You just said that race can only be distinguished through phenotype though?
I said the opposite can you read?
You gave an example where you disproved your own argument, this is an example where race transcends phenotype
>Umm, white boi, this has been my entire argument, phenotype are not indicative of race, I direct you to my above statement, can you even read?
You still haven't said what your argument is, and I hope I just cleared up mine.
The idea of race is of essentially no scientific value. That said, it certainly exists as a cultural concept, just like ideas of "being french" or "being american" exist as cultural ideas.
People form ideas of what it means to be a member of those groups. Admittedly those ideas tend to vary from person to person, but it's still something that exists in the minds of many.
This is the last time.
And if you ever try telling me hockey was invented in greece again, I'll slit your fucking throat.
( A greek once told me hockey was a greek invention )
Ela re, alitheia to les, h eisai mistikos praktoras? Re pas under cover?
Literally choked back a laugh at work just now, guy is a legit Greek, we have a saying in Greece, if you are late around 15 minutes we call that university delay. Half an hour, Greek delay, top kek
It has scientific value in the medical and forensic field as I explained earlier
>is still very small and it is not even the main point to contest in that sentence.
8 percent of the genome of an aboriginal can be traced to Denisovans another 2 and half to neanderthals. That is a significant amount.
>Well now I know you didn't read those Medical Journals, they use race and species interchangeably.
No one thinks we are different species just sub species like an animal breed. Non africans and africans have a larger genetic distance than Asiatic and African lions
>I said the opposite can you read?
>You gave an example where you disproved your own argument, this is an example where race transcends phenotype
I was indicating that YOU said this without knowing, not that I thought you believed that is what it meant. that is an example where race exists
>You still haven't said what your argument is, and I hope I just cleared up mine.
My argument is that race exists and you are shifting goal posts to prove your own subjective theory of what it is
Ok, your argument is that races exist.
Mine is that they don't.
The scientific value in forensics of skull measurements is indicative of it having no scientific value in regards to race not forensics, this is an unrelated point.
Now I ppostulated that phenotypes are not indicative of race, no moving of goalposts there, this ha been may main assertion from the start.
Aboriginals have 10% DNA that is not Homo-Sapiens Sapiens, they are still around 90% Homo-Sapiens, not another race.
I am using the term race and species interchangeably as well, sorry if that has lead to any confusion.
An easy example to use is that of Dogs, dogs are all the same species yet they have a huge range of phenotypes. Humans have much less physical divergence yet you seem to want to claim they are more different.
>implying Poland is anywhere near as good as Estonia
Our tribes are unable to agree who will rule, so they are invited new person (Rurik), Varangians at that time were vitally connected with the ancient Slavs (they lived together for quite a while).
End of the story.
>GDP of Estonia: 27,880
>GDP of Pooland: 25,247
>this is how quickly Poland runs out of arguments
they probably sell aids, that's why they're richer.
>Finnish population during WWII: around 3 million
>hold out for 6 years, lose 1 city and some forests
>Polish population during WWII: 35 million
>lose in 1 month, lose entire country and become communists
Compare Polish-Bolshevik war in 1920 with Winter War. You look like pussies, we won twice the land, you lost your land. We fought the important generals, you fought some irrelevant amebas.
>inb4 more mongolian crying.
I already compared us, you lost in 1 month with 12 times the population while we lasted 60 times longer and lost a fraction of the clay you did
>poles on suicide alert
You're saying WW2. Which was clearly Third Reich with twice the army we had. Soviets entered when everything was over.
French had a little bigger army than Germany and lasted only 5 days longer.
I was talking about Polish-Bolshevik War.
>After the Deluge, the Commonwealth became a "cultural desert"