I feel like there is very growing anti-Muslim sentiment. It waxes and wanes and now it is waxing.
I hate it because I feel like it is driving America apart. We don't learn from the past...intolerance never leads to anything good, hate only leads to more hate. The only way to end all wars is to start with understanding.
Some nationalists hate them, but most of people here are ok with Muslims and know really more about Islam comparing to Europeans becas Islam has been the part of Russia since 1500s. We have always lived together with Muslims. I also don't understand islamophoby in Murrica, they have never contacted with Muslims a lot, they have never lived with them or so.
>>53488274 >most of people here are ok with Muslims and know really more about Islam comparing to Europeans becas Islam has been the part of Russia since 1500s. We have always lived together with Muslims You're telling lies, Vazgen, 60-70% of Russians support the slogan "Russia is for Russians" and want all shitskins out
Only a MINORITY of Muslims believe in death penalty for apostasy or adultery. Only a MINORITY of Muslims think suicide bombing is sometimes justified. (how many Americans believe in homicide bombing? Why is suicide bombing worse than homicide bombing again?) Only a MINORITY of Muslim believe in Al-Qaeda or Osama bin Laden. Only a MINORITY of Muslims don't believe in democracy. Only a MINORITY of Muslims think honor killing is okay. Only a MINORITY of Muslim believe in witchcraft (who cares are you scared they will all become hot topic wiccans?).
Only a MINORITY believe in or support ISIS.
So why are you judging the MAJORITY of Muslim based on a MINORITY you disagree with?
>>53488351 Stop saying for all Muslims, there are 1,5 billions of them. Hardcore Christianity suppose Christians to be hateful towards gays, Muslims, heretics, atheists etc, but you don't say that being Christian means all that.
>But Mudlims are intolerant to atheists, Jews and gays, so if you're not Islamophobic, then you're anti-semite, homophobic and bigoted
Uh, no not all Muslims are intolerant. First of all, "Muslim" and "gay" is not mutually exclusive there are gay Muslims.
Second of all, some Muslims are intolerant towards Jews and atheists (why did you leave out Christian, considering many Christians are genocided in the Middle East much more so than "atheists" are?) But the same goes in vice versa--many Jews/atheists are prejudice against Muslims. It has to stop somewhere.
Leftards believe in helping the powerless. So that includes Christians of the Middle East and Natives of Central America. It doesn't necessarily mean Rome, but Rome is doing just fine last I checked even without conquering tons of people. No its not at the center of a giant empire but it doesn't need to be.
I know and work with some cool people who happen to be Muslim, but as a demographic Muslims tend to be deleterious to Western civ. I guess it must suck to be among the "good ones" because of this, but the stereotype endures for a reason.
>>53488418 >that bullshit Nationalism was a thing is 90's but we have kinda like 500 people at Russian Rally. Stop living in the world of your imagination. We have solved all the nationalism and religious hatred problems here in Russia. P.S. Vazgen is an Armenian name, you idiot.
I think Islam should be treated the same as Nazism. It's toxic, barbarian and its followers are either evil or uneducated. The best way to get rid of the Muslim problem in Europe is to make them read the actual Quran and the hadiths after which they'll drop that bullshit and assimilate. Everyone who is educated about Islam and continues to be a Muslim should be treated as an enemy of the state.
>>53488537 >Hardcore Christianity suppose Christians to be hateful towards gays, Muslims, heretics, atheists etc,
No it doesn't. Hardcore Christianity preaches to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. It does allow for self-defense and just wars but only enough to subdue them, not for violence done in vengeance.
Hell, there's never been a time when Christian nations killed atheists unless you want to really stretch for a handful of isolated cases of guys who may or may not have been "atheist" by modern society. Atheists have killed far more Muslims/Christians/Buddhists/etc than vice-versa.
Why is this thread pretending that atheists are some poor oppressed minority equivalent to the Jews?
>>53487312 So stereotypes, right? People who like to murder each other while screaming "Allahu akbar" but happily turn on random bystanders. Preferred method is decapitation, shooting from kalashnikov or suicide bombing. Also that they don't know what toilet is, beat their women, have multiple wives, think that rape and pedophilia is okay (this one got especially popular after a Qatari prince got caught with a gypsy teen but got bailed out by his diplomatic status and corrupt minister of justice).
Presumably most people also admit that they are not all like that, but better safe than sorry, right?
>>53488649 >no not all Muslims are intolerant Only 99%?
>But the same goes in vice versa--many Jews/atheists are prejudice against Muslims. It has to stop somewhere Jews/atheists and Muslims just should livein different countries, that will end intolerance and violence
>>53488694 That level of ignorance and BPЁЁЁЁЁЁЁЁЁЁTИ Dagi detected
>There are no hardcore Christianity countries now,
Vatican City? That is as hardcore religious as it gets, period. Also atheists are pretty much never treated poorly you have to find extremely isolated examples of atheists deliberately acting like belligerent dickweeds and even then you'll only find a small handful. Stop comparing atheists to gays or Jews already.
>>53488953 That's all nice and sweet, but who will teach love and tolerance to those 1,1 billion people in >>53488231's graph who think Sharia should rule? Or those 584 millions who think murdering person because he doesn't want to follow their faith anymore is okay?
>>53489026 There are a very little number of anticommunists in Russia, I guess he represents a very small minority if nationalists. >>53488852 Stop reading Prosvirnin you fag. Nationalism means nothing in Russia anymore, we has solved that problem. There are not problems with dadhestan and Chechen people anymore, they all had left in 00s.
"Sharia" is a broad idea. It doesn't mean Muslims are hateful but that they believe in the law of Islam.
>Or those 584 millions who think murdering person because he doesn't want to follow their faith anymore is okay? This is a very roundabout way of saying "a minority". Anyway, yes, you can teach them love by leading by example. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If you want to persuade people to be on your side and agree with you, you show them kindness. They will want to pass this kindness on.
What would have happened if MLK or Ghandi decided to fight their oppressors with guns instead of words? They would have just built up more hate. You can't fight hate with hate.
>Tolerance is achieved by keeping Muslims and Islamic culture in Islamic countries.
That isn't tolerance though. Do you think that if we kept "atheists and atheistic culture" in "atheistic countries" (i.e. Czech Republic, North Korea, etc) that would be tolerance? No way. That would be intolerance. Support the freedom of all people.
Really? When have Jewish people ever ever forced their religion on you? On what planet? Judaism isn't even a religion of converts, its meant to be exclusively practiced by the Jews and separate Jews from Gentiles. Conversion is highly discouraged and in some cases impossible (depending on the sect).
>>53489302 > There are not problems with dadhestan and Chechen people anymore, they all had left in 00s. >>53489026 > Can Russian anticommunist hate Chechens, when they were the only people who didnt submit to the commie rule? If we hate chechens then we hate them because of their modern actions
>>53489370 >Why should atheists live in Europe more than Muslims? Last I checked there were high numbers of Muslims in Europe before there were high numbers of atheists Because atheism doesn't contradict to European values
atheism is the only right way to go because it's the only scientific way to go. Everything else leads to issues. Until we don't promote and teach all the people atheism, Islam will always be a problem. There should be zero tolerance toward religion. Christianity is also cancer.
>>53489370 >This is a very roundabout way of saying "a minority". Anyway, yes, you can teach them love by leading by example. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If you want to persuade people to be on your side and agree with you, you show them kindness. They will want to pass this kindness on
They certainly did pass on a lot of kindness in Germany or Sweden.
It's nice when people are repaying kindness with kindness, but what would you do with people who repay kindness with arrogance, who spit in face of their hosts and urinate on those who feed them? What of people who claim to be fleeing from suffering and misery but throw stones on people who defend their homes, or throw away food given to them as charity?
I know you are trolling but considering some atheistic Europeans really have tried to deliberately kill off all religious people in the past.....
Because freedom of thought and belief are fundamental parts of human society, and religion in particular is an integral part of being human. I don't think its possible to remove religion entirely, societies who have tried (North Korea, USSR, etc) just end up turning the government into its own pseudo-religion and just end up driving religious people underground.
Not only that religion is correlated with much better social adjustment, mental/physical health, etc.
I bet most Europeans living 100 years ago might disagree with you there. Funny how that works right? Almost like values change over time and will continue to change in the future. At various points/places in European history, Protestantism, Catholicism, paganism, Judaism, and yes, even atheism have been considered "contradict to European values". Why do you think the buck stops at Islam?
>>53488521 because it's a very significant minority, in every muslim majority country somehow this minority ends up with too much power, and everycountry with muslim minorities had problems with them assimilating
>>53490033 Atheism doesn't contradict to the modern European values, cuck. While Islam does. And don't use Tatars or Turks as an examples of "nonviolent Islam", Tatars and Turks are secularized as fuck
>islamphobia A phobia is an irrational fear. I know exactly why I hate a death cult created by pedophile warlord that demands obedience, forceful conversation or murder of non-believers, treating women like cattle, stoning of rape victims, the brutal torturing of animals before you can eat them, shuns technological advancement, zero and even active opposition of any human rights, has made numerous attempts to invade Europe and bans bacon.
"People"(ie muslims) blame the CIA and Mossad for ISIS, but the reality is they didn't plant the 20 million sunnis in Iraq and Syria that support them and joined them at the drop of a hat. Tens of thousands of foreign """""""""""""nationals"""""""""""" across the world are flocking to join them. All across the world every single other religion hates muslims, even peaceable buddhists despise them with a passion, while christians and jews are left alone despite colonial grievances.
That said, I hate people on an individual basis, but I sure as hell will speak out against the ideology itself.
>>53489822 >Atheist is far more compatible with Western society and culture, particularly since Western society is largely secular.
Society changes though. ~100 years ago, atheism wasn't that compatible with Western society (to say nothing of 200+ years ago). 500 years ago, Protestantism was incompatible with Western society. 200 years ago (in some areas in the Europe), Catholicism was incompatible.
Culture changes drastically from decade to decade. When atheists were told they were "incompatible" they changed culture accordingly to be more accommodating to themselves. And Muslims will do the same.
>>53489864 Nazis still have freedom of speech etc. Disagreement with is not the same as intolerance. If I saw a Nazi I would talk to him and express why his views are flawed the same as I do with the Islamaphobes in this very thread.
>>53489896 Are you being kind because of your own goodness and love or are you being kind because you want a pat on the back? You know that most Muslims are very grateful to their hosts. Those who aren't--its their loss. Don't let them tarnish you.
>>53489983 Good thing nobody wants to ban all Germans or Russians from our country.
>>53489830 Atheism isn't "scientific". You are just as intolerant and violent as you claim Muslims are. The hypocrisy is outstanding.
>>53490189 That's because of the average level of education, the effects of poverty, and so on.
>>53490216 So anything European pre-1789 was in direct contradiction with European values? That would almost seem like a bold contradiction given your belief in heritage and nationalism, which draws heritage & history as a legitimizing force.
>>53490206 You've not answered the question at all. For the 2nd time, you've made a synthetic a priori statement and expect it to be held as scientific, despite the fact that it is neither true by definition nor can it be proven conclusively. To draw a meaningful scientific conclusion from something, there has to be some form of empirical prove/disproveability behind it or it has to be true by definition. Until then, you're about as scientific as people saying God definitely exists.
OK yeah yeah yeah you are a giant fedoraman troll. Stop it.
>>53490189 Assimilation is a flawed way of looking at migration. People are not the borg. They don't magically change just because they moved to different people. Think of it not as assimilation, but as learning from each other. Forming a place in the middle and lettign your cultures intermingle and form something new. This is how American culture was formed.
>Atheism doesn't contradict to the modern European values, cuck. While Islam does.
1) What are the ""Modern European values""? 2) You do realize that values change over time, right? Maybe in the future, atheism will contradict "modern European values" and Islam won't. Does that mean atheists won't deserve tolerance?
>>53490304 >Nazis still have freedom of speech etc. Disagreement with is not the same as intolerance. If I saw a Nazi I would talk to him and express why his views are flawed the same as I do with the Islamaphobes in this very thread Do you do this with Muslims? Their views are totally wrong
Of course it's not fair. Just like it's not fair for Germans who didn't support Hitler to suffer what befell their country during the war.
What does that mean though? Does that mean that Germans, Swedes, Frenchmen and what have you should be content with deterioration of security in their streets? What exactly should they do to bring "love and tolerance" to people who don't value it at all?
I believe that if people from certain group want to be treated better, they should make an effort to earn respect instead of demanding it.
>>53490452 >What are the ""Modern European values""? Human rights, freedom of speech and expression etc
>You do realize that values change over time, right? Maybe in the future, atheism will contradict "modern European values" and Islam won't. Does that mean atheists won't deserve tolerance? Well, look at sharia countries, atheism and even Christianity aren't treated there with much tolerance
>>53490442 Then read our entire conversation, retard
>>53490505 The fact of the matter is, most refugees are incredibly grateful for the opportunities they've been given. Some are entitled assholes yes, but those are found across the spectrum. Most of them don't want to cause any trouble, as far as I understand. If you were escaping war, I doubt the first thing you wanna do is stir the pot.
>What does that mean though? Our states have the rule of law, which all are equal before. If someone breaks the law, they are to be tried accordingly. It is not fair to make blanket statements, nor is it wise.
>I believe that if people from certain group want to be treated better, they should make an effort to earn respect instead of demanding it.
>>53490423 >If god has a 0.0000000000000001% chance of existing That's a random number you just invented right now. >agnostic atheism. You mean the same kind of atheism practiced by human vegetables and fetuses? Who even cares. Its still not scientific.
>>53490256 >I hate a death cult created by pedophile warlord How is Islam a "death cult"? Also Mohammad is hardly a pedophile, he had a ton of wives (19 wives and 10 engagements) in order to form alliances with different clans, only one of them was a child and it was long before we understood child psychology or why under 18 year olds cannot meaningfully consent. >obedience Just like every other institution on Earth, wow. > forceful conversation or murder of non-believers Nope, in fact Islam doesn't believe in force conversion at all. There is no compulsion in religion. > treating women like cattle, stoning of rape victims, the brutal torturing of animals before you can eat them, shuns technological advancement, zero and even active opposition of any human rights All bullshit. >jews are left alone despite colonial grievances. Uh, who would have colonial grievances against Jews aside from maybe Arabs? (Who will often hate Jews)?
>>53490435 >You've not answered the question at all. For the 2nd time, you've made a synthetic a priori statement and expect it to be held as scientific, despite the fact that it is neither true by definition nor can it be proven conclusively. To draw a meaningful scientific conclusion from something, there has to be some form of empirical prove/disproveability behind it or it has to be true by definition. Until then, you're about as scientific as people saying God definitely exists. That's all just a bunch of bullshit. Even if it existed, does it change something? No, it doesn't. Therefore it's useless to start the hypthesis, making atheism the only way to go.
>>53490304 >Are you being kind because of your own goodness and love or are you being kind because you want a pat on the back? I'd like to think it's the former, but I realize that people are increasingly more convinced that kindness will not earn them a pat, but a knife in the back. You did exactly nothing to address the key issue: how would YOU deal with people who see kindness as weakness. Who will not pause when you offer them other cheek and accept your love but instead beat you to death and rob you.
>>53490707 >that's all just a bunch of bullshit you've literally discredited the basis of what qualifies science as prescribed by philosophers of science, and scientists themselves. To then somehow make a claim that you are being scientific is not only a farce but an insult to your own hypothesis.
>Even if it existed, does it change something? If what existed?
Second of all, the Turkish majority government, which has held power for over a decade, has professed itself to be an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. If you keep on voting in religiously-justified governments, how can you be secularized?
Now, given the statistic you gave me and the information I've brought to light, what can you conclude about the nature of piety in Islam?
>>53490498 >Russians have a way of going where nobody wants them to be. Like Crimea OMG Swedecuck starts this bullshit with Crimea In fact, I support neither side in the Crimea conflict, because I don't care on who owns this peninsula, but there was a referendum, if you didn't know and Crimean people voted to be in Russia
>>53490600 >Human rights, freedom of speech and expression etc Human rights like freedom of religion? Including Islam? Also the West has plenty of caps on freedom of speech and expression. There's never been absolute freedom of speech anywhere in the West, let alone in Europe which has plenty of hate speech laws.
Hmmm....using hate speech? Intolerance toward human rights? If anything this is making Islamaphobes sound like the ones who contradict "modern European values".
>Well, look at sharia countries, atheism and even Christianity aren't treated there with much tolerance >even Christianity Uh, yes, Christianity is persecuted far far far more than atheism ever is, so why would you say "even Christianity"? But the solution to persecution is not more persecution. You don't fight fire with fire. You fight fire with water.
I consider myself a centrist. I side with liberal on some issue and conservative on other issue. I don't agree with Islam on many things but I know that disagreements don't justify persecution or hate.
> a majority of muslims hold beliefs that are incompatible with how we live in Europe or in the US
Nope, only a minority. That said, the way we live is always changing and shifting. In the past, atheists would have been the "incompatible" ones. If you are irreligious, as most 4chan posters tend to be, how do you reconcile this hypocrisy?
No I am not. Islam doesn't treat women like cattle (WTF), it doesn't believe in stoning rape victims, it doesn't believe in "brutal torturing of animals before you eat them" (rolling my eyes so hard...I bet most animals live better lives in rural areas of the Middle East then they do on Western factory farms), it doesn't' "Shun technological advancement" (hell even ISIS uses internet and youtube etc), and Muslims do believe in human rights.
Like where do I even begin? Its just a bunch of the most Islamaphobic memes he could pull out of his ass no matter how bs they are.
>>53490881 If they would beat and rob me I would call the police. If I were a male I might even try to fight them back so they stop trying to beat me. But I wouldn't run around beating up all Muslims just because 1 Muslim was violent towards me.
After all, aren't men the most violent demographic there is? Should we ban all men? No of course not.
>>53490658 >Our states have the rule of law, which all are equal before Tell that to Rotherham victims. I'd actually be quite content with equality before law.
>How exactly would that look like to you? With Muslim policemen patrolling the streets and bringing Muslim criminals in front of an atheist court. With Muslim citizens reporting suspicious activity of their neighbors to police. With Muslim women bringing Muslim men to court for domestic abuse. In other words with Muslim community cooperating fully and without reservation with authorities of the country they live in.
>>53490927 >only a minority No. A fucking majority. Just look a the studies man. >how do you reconcile this hypocrisy? pretty easily : my country had for long been a victim of bigotry because of the catholic church before 1901, and then the second vatican concile. After those two events, things got pretty chill and a lot more tolerant between religious and non religious people.
The rise of Islam will set us back to where we were before, and I certainly don't want that shit.
>>53490927 >Human rights like freedom of religion? Including Islam?Also the West has plenty of caps on freedom of speech and expression. There's never been absolute freedom of speech anywhere in the West, let alone in Europe which has plenty of hate speech laws Leftcuck is trying to sit on two chairs, which will inevitably result in total fucking failure lel. I already asked you if you try to talk to Muslims and express why their views are flawed but you didn't respond. You obviously don't, because that would be "intolerant" to Muslim intolerance
>>53490308 why'd you quote me on that, I really dislike muslims. Moderate muslim or none extremist muslims are just "muslims" who aren't actually muslim.
>>53490435 bullshit, rich muslim countries fund terrorism all over the world and every terror organization has many educated muslims or turn even more extreme in colleges,an ex muslim in another thread even posted about how most the leaders of terrorist groups have been educated in western colleges
>>53490452 You live in an fairy tale world, if there is millions of these people who want to destroy us not fighting back would never work. If people thought like you your country wouldn't exist and would be split among the Japanese, Nazis, and soviets. Grow up and open your eyes.
>>53491194 >Islam doesn't treat women like cattle see Saudi Arabia >stoning rape victims see Saudi Arabia >animals nice hypocrisy and changing the argument >it doesn't' "Shun technological advancement" yes it has, for centuries.
Aisha's real age has been lost to time, different sources say 9, 10, 12, 20 or 22. Point being though, she was only 1 wife out of 19 wives which he gained for political alliance purposes and it was long before meaningful child psychology, so many people considered children to be just smaller, more dumb adults.
I mean I have turkish, tunsian and lebanese friends that are just like us and to the same activities but when you get close to them you notice that there's something off. You notice that they think more black and white than normal people, that they are very sensitive, they have very extreme worldviews and very rarely admit being wrong.
desu I think it's because a muslims grows up being subjected to so much violence and with the stupid islamic ideas that both physically and emotionally that they develop this anger,unstable emotions and narcissistic worldview that is characteristic of modern personality disorders.
>>53488878 They are white. They act like subhumans because of the religion, not because they are very different unlike blacks.
The far left wants to convince themselves and everybody else that they're really just a downtrodden minority crying out for help and blah blah blah blah blah. Everybody else tends to have no strong feelings one way or the other, not care, or is at least a little bit suspicious of them.
>>53491248 >No. A fucking majority. Just look a the studies man. What studies. The studies saying only a minority believe in stoning adulterers etc?
>pretty easily : my country had for long been a victim of bigotry because of the catholic church before 1901, and then the second vatican concile. After those two events, things got pretty chill and a lot more tolerant between religious and non religious people. Vatican II didn't change much in terms of Catholic belief. Also you seem to praise tolerance between religious and nonreligious people...but what about tolerance of Muslims? Why do nonreligious French deserve tolerance more than Muslim French?
And no, I don't think more Muslims will set France back to being a very Catholic nation. Rather its just one more shift in the history of France, of which France has had many shifts.
>>53491194 >After all, aren't men the most violent demographic there is? Should we ban all men? No of course not. I'm not talking about "Banning all Muslims", although there is a difference here. Islam is an ideology, not sex or some genetic condition. People following it do so out of choice. Which brings us back to alarming percentage of people who unironically believe that apostates should be killed.
But back to point: we agree at least that people who do wrong should be individually punished, yes? That does include people who molest women, who refuse to submit to identification in asylum procedure or evade deportation after being denied asylum, or in some countries people who express (as in speak out!) support of ideologies that run contrary to human rights or constitutional order, which in turn includes people who preach death for non-believers.
>>53491523 >What studies. PEW research center >The studies saying only a minority believe in stoning adulterers etc? Is is really where you draw the line ? >Vatican II didn't change much in terms of Catholic belief. It did. A lot. In Europe at least. >but what about tolerance of Muslims ? oh but I'll tolerate muslims, if they agree not to preach stupid shit that has no place in a country like France. >back to being a very Catholic nation that's not what I said. it will send back France to age of bigotry and intolerance. >France has had many shifts often for the better, not the worst. Look at the muslim world. I don't want that shit here.
>>53491242 Do you realize that the AKP wanted to change some of the constitution but couldn't muster the two-thirds majority?
>>53491202 The Rotherham case is deplorable to say the least. But crime is crime, no matter creed or culture. To look at it differently would be contrary to the absolute nature of the law.
>Muslim policemen One of the policemen that died during the Charlie Hebdo attacks was a Muslim, Arab by ethnicity. The exception doesn't make the rule man. You already have these things, to varying degrees admittedly, but you do. This is the Mayor of Rotterdam, post Charlie Hebdo as well.
Hardcore christian bothers you on market place with flyers and in worst case comes ringing your doorbell on saturday or sunday morning while you are suffering from hangover to hand out some flyers about jesus or prayer meet.
Hardcore muslim flies airliners into office buildings, shoots cartoonists, beheads religious minorities, drives VBIED's to hospitals, supports slavery, throws faggots from towers and so on. Moderate muslim just wants hardcore muslim to all that shit as he is too lazy to it himself.
>>53491349 >see Saudi Arabia Still doesn't treat women like cattle. Women have 2nd class citizenship for sure, but they aren't turning women into burgers or having them live in the barn. Yes it sucks that women just got the right to vote this year, but that doesn't make them "cattle" anymore than women were "Cattle" in 1989, Switzerland or 1983, Liechtenstein
Also reminder that women still don't have the right to vote in Vatican City, a Western European nation. Does that mean Vatican City treats women like "cattle"? Nope. Are children treated like cattle? Nope. So shut up, ok?
>see Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia doesn't believe in stoning rape victims either. In fact, Saudi Arabia scarcely uses stoning at all, only 4 times from 1981-1992, and none since 2007.
And while Saudi Arabia has many offenses which can recieve the death penalty for (including rape, drug smuggling, terrorism, murder etc). "Being raped" is not one of them.
>yes it has, for centuries. No it hasn't. Muslims, even terrorist Muslim, use the internet, smartphones, youtube, electricity, guns, twitter, you name it. They aren't Amish, FFS, nor does their religion call for it. You are ignorant.
>>53491443 >hostile towards all western values. What "Western values"? You realize that tolerance is commonly accepted as a Western value but you act hostile towards it. >To tolerate existence of islam and to assume that it can change to become relevant in post medieval world. What does the medieval era have to do with anything?
>>53491884 >Still doesn't treat women like cattle you really have no idea what you are talking about. Women not being allowed to drive is only the visible part of the iceberg >>53491884 >Saudi Arabia doesn't believe in stoning rape victims either Ok, maybe it wasn't stoning, but a victim of raped has been charged and punished in a barbaric way not so long ago >No it hasn't. Ever heard of wahhabism ?
>>53491355 9 years is the most commonly held belief about her age at the moment of Muhammad fucking her. Also you don't have to have "meaningful child psychology" to realize that 9 year olds can't be impregnated and aren't mature enough for sex, it was common knowledge back then (I mean they are just not sexually attractive to 99.99999% of people) but that didn't prevent Muhammad from fucking a 9 year old girl. Even if he fucked her at an older age hundreds of millions of people still believe he fucked her when she was 9 years old while considering him the perfect human being whose life and deeds a Muslims has to emulate.
>>53491844 >One of the policemen that died during the Charlie Hebdo attacks was a Muslim, Arab by ethnicity. The exception doesn't make the rule man. You already have these things, to varying degrees admittedly, but you do. This is the Mayor of Rotterdam, post Charlie Hebdo as well. I knew of Ahmed and personally grieve for him more than I do for those cartoonists. And thank God for such examples. I do wish there was more of them. If there were enough of such examples, maybe there would be less need to whine about unfair treatment. Perhaps there would be less people outraged by what happened in Cologne and other cities if there were reports of Muslim men who stood up in defence of the molested women.
But sadly this is not the case. Last time I've seen a report about immigrant foiling robbery and giving his life in process, he turned out to be... ukraininan.
>>53491713 We do. We also see nonMuslims assaulting and harassing women (even on this website).
>>53491684 >People following it do so out of choice And according to the typical Western values you have a right to choose to believe in Islam just like a choice to be atheist. >we agree at least that people who do wrong should be individually punished, yes? Yes. >That does include people who molest women, Yes. >who refuse to submit to identification in asylum procedure or evade deportation after being denied asylum Maybe for the first (depends on why--what if they don't have valid ID?). No for the second, because its natural for a human being to want to evade deportation. Especially if they are fleeing a hateful situation. >support of ideologies that run contrary to human rights or constitutional order Some would argue that a lot of the people here arguing that Muslims are not welcome are supporting ideologies that run contrary to human rights. But I think humans have the right to speak out and express things which are controversial or which go against human rights. This allows us to engage in dialogue and explain why we disagree, much like I am doing with you now.
>>53491791 >Is is really where you draw the line ? I draw the line when they start to hurt other people, yes. >It did. A lot. In Europe at least. Like what? >if they agree not to preach stupid shit that has no place in a country like France. Like what. >it will send back France to age of bigotry and intolerance. If you are an example of the average France, than it seems France is already in an age of bigotry and intolerance...against Muslims. >often for the better, not the worst. Better and worst are 100% subjective. Some might say France got worse. Also considering France has switched between monarchy to republic to monarchy to republic in their history, no matter what you belive in you must believe France got worst at some points.
Japan has trauma of migrants (Koreans and Chinese here bring high crime rate, they can not penetrate / respect Japanese culture and society. Their naturalized politicians try to genocide Japanese culture and Japanese people for being a parasite on Japan) Muslims in Europe reminds us of them. Japan also have trauma of religion by Christian invasion.
Japan should not insult or discriminate against Muslims, but we can not accept Muslim immigrants and refugees because Japan is Shinto county. The difference of religion is the difference of morality.
>>53492187 Do you know the percentage of rapes in Sweden committed by Muslim immigrants? If that country banned immigration from Muslim countries, there would be literally no rapes there. But those cucks enjoy the situation.
>>53492187 >I draw the line when they start to hurt other people Well I draw the line where freedom of other people start. >Like what? open a fucking history book >Like what. shariah law, wearing the hijab, the place of women in society, gay rights... the list of topics where muslims either show bigotry or intolerance goes on and on... >If you are an example of the average France, than it seems France is already in an age of bigotry and intolerance...against Muslims. No you see, I'm pretty tolerant, as long as you don't bother me with your shit. I'l stay in my corner, chill. I'm just the guy saying "watch out, this ideology is pretty fucking intolerant and dangerous, maybe, just maybe we should let it poison the minds of our countrymen ?"
Also, read the fucking Quran. Educate yourself on what these """"""""people"""""""" believe. If you don't understand why so many people don't want them in their countries you will understand very clearly after a few surahs.
>>53492000 >That where ethics and philosophical basis of islam still is.
No its not. Also that's not how time works. I may as well say that the ethics of Islamaphobia are "still in" the medieval era, but we know it would be untrue. That's not how time works. > Unable to change along with rest of society. Except Muslims do change. Its the guys in this thread worrying about increasing Islamic population who are resisting change.
>>53492086 >Women not being allowed to drive is only the visible part of the iceberg And NONE of the iceberg has anything to do with cattle whatsoever. >Ok, maybe it wasn't stoning, but a victim of raped has been charged and punished in a barbaric way not so long ago Because it was a disagreement over if it was adultery or not. We see men in the West do the same thing, claim a rape victim wanted it and that it wasn't really rape. >Ever heard of wahhabism ? Wahhabism isn't Amish either. They still use internet, smartphones, youtube, electricity, etc etc etc. No sect of Islam calls to shun technology. Not a one.
>>53492105 Some 9 year olds do hit puberty at that time, a puberty is only considered precocious if its pre-8 years old in girls. Its not right to have sex with someone just because they hit puberty, since they still have a long way to go before they are psychologically grown (personally I think if you are over 25 you should only have sex with over 25 year olds).
But its stupid to project modern understanding of child psychology into the past.
>>53491867 hardcore christians have: >shot up abortion clinics >created child soldier armies >molested children in their churches >made pariahs of scientists such as Galileo and Darwin >burned people at the stake for being the wrong type of christian
The difference is, incomes and education rose. When that happened, people began to care less and less about the church, to which the church had to adapt, thus culling most of it's hate speech. However, if you do feel like what hardcore christians accept, all I have to say is look at the old testament.
>>53492133 There's plenty of examples of that anon, but sensationalism sells more than anything else. In a time of rising populism, what do you expect to perform better?
None of that implies cattle. Do we treat children like cattle in the West? No. Its not fair they treat women like children, it is wrong they treat women like 2nd class citizens, but it is NOT the same as cattle. Until they start turning women into burgers you are being incredibly, offensively hyperbolic and you know it.
>>53492462 >open a fucking history book I did and Vatican II changed very little about Catholic belief. >shariah law, wearing the hijab, the place of women in society, gay rights... the list of topics where muslims either show bigotry or intolerance goes on and on... Wow bullshit. How is wearing a hijab contrary to anything at all? You are telling women what they should wear? Also last I checked French people have a variety of opinions on the place of women in society as well as gay rights. It clearly DOES have "a place in a country like France". You just don't like the idea of immigrants who disagree with you. Sharia law is very very broad.
>>53492487 Those verses are taken out of context. Historically, Mohammad was fighting against hostile and oppressive non-Muslims and those are what the quotes about fighting etc. refer to. Not non-Muslims in the modern day.
>>53492523 Holy shit are you literally defending the fucking 9 year olds and call opposing that sort of thing "projecting modern understanding of child psychology"? Any male who can get his dick hard at the sight of naked 9 year old girl is a fucking pedophile and a sick bastard.
None of those books were presented as the indisputable word of God. According to the Islam the angel Jabril was giving Mohammad direct commands from Allah (in a cave with no witnesses), stating that this revelation was final. That is itself an invitation to violence.
>>53492692 >However, if you do feel like what hardcore christians accept, all I have to say is look at the old testament.
What does the OT have to do with "hardcore Christians"? The OT is Jewish literature.
>The difference is, incomes and education rose. When that happened, people began to care less and less about the church, to which the church had to adapt, thus culling most of it's hate speech. The Church never taught to molest children, or even to make pariahs out of Darwin or to craete "soldier children" or to "shoot up abortion clinics". That is not what "hardcore Christians" believe.
There aren't many of them here. The ones who practice Islam certainly see some prejudice against them, as much as Brazil accepts and assimilates every culture that has migrated here, Muslims are just too far apart from us.
>>53492743 There is no "context" for very much of the Quran. It's a bunch of babble. One second it's talking about how to prepare food and the next it's talking about the hypocrisy of the non-believers and other shit. It's a mess.
Please, don't try and debate the Quran with me, I can guarantee I've read it more than you.
Most people like myself live without ever seeing one, our arabs muh heritage are 1/8 christians syryan/lebanese than can't speak a single word of arabic.The general image is terrorists, fanatics, people with medieval mindset etc.
What are you talking about? I am saying that its stupid to project modern values and knowledge into the past. We also have no idea about Aisha's age, and its worth noting that Mohammad married 19 other women, all others of which were older, for political purposes (Arabic society was fraccionated into many disparate tribes) and not sexual ones.
>>53492743 >How is wearing a hijab contrary to anything at all it's submissive as shit >You are telling women what they should wear? No. Neither should their husbands. Or any god for that matter. If you don't see the bigotry behind this, I'll start to seriously doubt your intellectual honesty. >French people have a variety of opinions on the place of women not really >You just don't like the idea of immigrants who disagree with you. I don't care if they are immigrants or natives. I disagree with the fucking ideology.
Now, I'd like you to do something. Come to Europe. Find the first muslim person you can find. And ask him his opinions on gay people, the place of women in society, jews, terrorism... You'll be surprised. No do it with another muslim person. It will be the same.
I don't give a shit about people having different views over different topics, as long as they form those views and opinions themselves, and not by being brainwashed by some religious ideology.
oh fuck off, such a sand nigger tier argument. It's bad when Catholics do it, or jew, or anyone else but only one group still acts on it too such an extant and gets defended for it in the media and by leftards. Muslims are cancer and that's all there is too it.
>>53492955 Yep. Everyone with the basics of western culture can assimilate in Brazil. Christian Arabs could do it easily. Even Japanese could. The Jesuits took care to westernize the natives and most of the africans.
Muslims, Indians and the recent Chinese immigrants though, I'm not so sure.
>>53492972 >Sweden>>>>Russia Nope, Sweden is even worse than Ukraine (whose economy is total mess), Romania (full of gypsies) and Portugal (one of the fucked up economies in EU). In fact Sweden is the worst country in Europe. Nobody except Swedecucks is retarded enough to take loans, because they don't have enough money for rapugees
>>53493010 Literally hundreds of millions of Muslims believe she was 9 years old when he fucked her, she was his favorite wife, he personally picked her when she was a child even though she had an older unmarried sister.
Are you retarded? Have you ever seen a naked 9 year old? Anyone who can get his dick hard from that is a sick pervert and this has nothing to do le modern psychology, modern values etc enough with this shit.
>>53492910 >The ones who practice Islam certainly see some prejudice against them That's because Muslims are professional drama queens. Nobody gives thinks badly of them, we just think they're weird, which is normal considering their culture has nothing to do with ours. Any person who lives in Brazil knows what REALLY happens when Brazilians dislike someone, and to compare that to getting laughed at for wearing a silly hat is just pure victimism.
>>53492890 How sacred are the texts of the bible, and why are they used as a guideline if there is no inherent credibility to it?
>>53492900 >OT is Jewish literature Which I do not recall Christ condemning, nor saying that it no longer applies. The OT is just as valid.
>that is not what hardcore Christians believe Funny, because that's how they would describe themselves.
>>53492915 I did say that the only reason people stopped listening to the church was because of economics, right? Thus, in essence, you're agreeing with me that it's not a matter of the religion but rather the zealousness of it's followers based on poverty?
>>53492950 Yes, because of economic advancements, whereby the church became less relevant. You're still missing the point. My point is that Islam as a religion is not exceptionally evil in comparison to other abrahamic religions, people just don't care about it as much, and that forced churches to change the way they communicate, or what their message is. Since the Middle East has neither a shred of political stability nor for the most part economic stability, I don't see how it's fair that you hold them to the exact same standards.
>>53493338 Nope. Simply wanted to understand the islamic """"""""""thought"""""""""" process. I have heard the line "nothing to do with Islam" too many fucking times so I decided to educate myself directly from the source.
>>53493096 >it's submissive as shit No its not. The only people who can see them are those who they want to see them. Many many women find that very empowering. >No. Yes you are when you tell women not to wear the hijab. Telling women they MUST go bareheaded is no better than telling women they MUST wear hijab. Its funny you think God doesn't have the right to tell them what to wear, but random old male French Christian/atheist guys do. Gezundheit. >not really Sure they do. I bet if you search you can find plenty of French women who like being submissive to their husbands. And especially when it comes to gay marriage. Opinions on these issues have changed in France and still there is diversity of opinion. > I disagree with the fucking ideology. Good for you. And they disagree with your ideology, sooo...? > Find the first muslim person you can find. And ask him his opinions on gay people, the place of women in society, jews, terrorism... You'll be surprised. No do it with another muslim person. It will be the same. Maybe I'll be surprised maybe I won't. I'll probably disagree on many issues, just like I disagree with you. >as long as they form those views and opinions themselves, and not by being brainwashed by some religious ideology. How do you decide who formed it themselves and who was "brainwashed"? You realize that "brainwashing" is largely a myth and no institution or ideology has the ability to use mind control? (any religion or ideology which did have this ability would have rapidly taken over the world three times by now)
>>53492187 >And according to the typical Western values you have a right to choose to believe in Islam just like a choice to be atheist. It is also according to typical Western values that you can get ostracized and even incarcerated if you choose to believe that Jews should be exterminated. Freedom is not without limits. >what if they don't have valid ID? they have fingerprints and DNA. >it's natural for a human being to want to evade deportation it's also natural for human being to want to evade being taken to prison. That is no excuse. >Some would argue that people arguing that Muslims are not welcome... Is it a human right to settle down in a country and then not obey its laws? I'm inclined to agree that it's not right to deny someone just because they are Muslims, but if they are Muslims AND intend to follow their customs over local law then there's problem. As for discussing controversial things, this freedom is not without limits as has been said, even if you can get away with substantially more than in Muslim countries (case in point: saudis) and with substantially milder punishment.
>>53492692 There's plenty of examples of that anon, but sensationalism sells more than anything else. In a time of rising populism, what do you expect to perform better? The journalists, apparently. Politicians, especially the more immoral ones, are more likely to pander to emotion and snap judgement. Assuming there is more of the positive stories to be found. Unfortunately it seems that instead the negative stories are being hushed over, which is not good either. Those examples you provided are indeed hopeful, but numbers are not stacked in their favour.
>>53493265 >Of course Muslims would disagree, they'll defend that piece of trash book to their (and our) deaths. I know Islamic history, I know the Quran, this is why I oppose Islam. You don't know either better than Muslims do. Also there are tens of thousands of hadiths which change depending on what sect you are looking at.
>>53493274 Atheists "and every other [non-Catholic] religion". Also strong atheism is certainly an ideology even if you want to claim it doesn't count as a religion since it doesn't have a God (neither does scientology).
>>53493336 >It changed more about the way those beliefs are taught. It also highlighted more progressive beliefs. This is true, Vatican II was primarily pastoral and changed the Church's approach rather than the Church's teaching. Some people say this had good result and some people think the result sucked.
>>53493381 >Which I do not recall Christ condemning, nor saying that it no longer applies. The OT is just as valid.
OT never ever preaches towards Gentiles though. Only towards Jews. Most Christians are Gentiles. Christians never have kept kosher or gave burnt offerings at the Hebrew temple. Its not part of Christian belief. >Funny, because that's how they would describe themselves. No they wouldn't, at least not in the context of "the Chuch".
>>53493381 religious Jews are cancer and your argument is retarded, they are still doing it and to such an extent is very applicable. It's a coincidence rape increases everywhere muslims move? Or that rape pretty much only exists in Israel in the muslim parts? Chrsitan arabs are the most educated group in Israel and has no problem with crime, they are the same race, in the same country, and face the same "discrimination" all arabs claim to face, how come they aren't violent savages? How come nearly all modern terrorism and land conflict involve muslims? Why was rape nearly none existent in Sweden until it became swedenstan? Everyone is sick and tired of muslims turning every place into a violent shithole of forced arab culture and blaming everyone else, fuck off to a muslim country if you want to see islam for yourself
Try being raised with this. I can read the Quran in it's native Arabic. I can understand the sprachgeist behind Arabic of the time period. I can contextualize it. Granted, I'm an agnostic now, but I know what I'm talking about.
>>53493537 2000 years was meant for christianity dumbass. In retrospect, I should've said like 1700 or so because Catholicism isn't 2000 years old.
>proofs for that Do I need to show you proofs that the catholic church has been abusing children?
>>53493630 This. It's so fucking easy to spot a mohammedan. They deflect all criticism and claim they're being persecuted. Just like their beloved Mohammed. Nobody had a victim complex like ol' Mohammed and it shows because his followers emulate it to this day.
>>53493448 >Many many women find that very empowering kek, so you really are fucking dishonest. >Yes you are when you tell women not to wear the hijab I'm not telling anyone to wear or not wear anything. On the other hand, I'm saying that the hijab is fucking stupid is backward as fuck. Not the same thing, friendo. > I bet if you search you can find plenty of French women who like being submissive to their husbands. WTF >And they disagree with your ideology, sooo...? Too bad for them, mine is the one that has come out from the history of my country. They can fuck off to a country that has a better inclination to their beliefs if they want to. French natives as well. >is largely a myth and no institution or ideology has the ability to use mind control? Now you are just pretending. That's not what I said and you know it.
>>53493540 >It is also according to typical Western values that you can get ostracized and even incarcerated if you choose to believe that Jews should be exterminated. Freedom is not without limits. Sure. But freedom of religion is well accepted human right in the West. >it's also natural for human being to want to evade being taken to prison. That is no excuse. Yes it is. Show some compassion and empathy.
>>53493615 Apparently Brazil is only second in the world in number of Syrian refugees, and they've been showed in the news more recently. It doesn't make such a difference though because Brazil is huge and they don't get our low-value welfare so they're selling kibes and esfihas for a living and complaining about it.
>>53493692 Shitskin retard, stop your false equivalences. I'm talking about the prophet of Islam about whom the sources of religion (hadith) say that he fucked a 9 year old. He is considered the perfect human and Muslims should emulate his deeds You would have a point if "abusing children" was some part of the Catholic dogma, tradition etc. (even then not really because that's nothing but whataboutism) Anyway you said that Muslim "clergy" didn't fuck 9 children, any source for that one?
>>53493782 >kek, so you really are fucking dishonest. its true. Why do you think you have a right to Muslim women's bodies? Its gross. > On the other hand, I'm saying that the hijab is fucking stupid is backward as fuck. How is it ""backward""" when early man walked around naked? Pic related. You just like to pretend that your way of life and your way of dress is the most "forward" and anyone different than you is "backward"? That is fallacious. >WTF What is wtf? Hell just doing a quick google search suggest French has plenty of contention in terms of how women are treated. >Too bad for them, mine is the one that has come out from the history of my country. So has hardcore Catholicism. It doesn't make it right. >Now you are just pretending. That's not what I said and you know it. You are the one who brought up "brainwashing" like is a real thing. They are no more brainwashed by Islam than you are brainwashed by secularism.
Reminder that any muslim that says they are a muslim but does not adhere to the tenets of the Quran are known as a "hypocrite." They will be losers in the hereafter, and it says so in the Quran. So therefore, there is no such thing as moderate Islam,only true muslims and hypocrites. Would any of the muslims in this thread care to debate this? Go ahead, I'll wait right here.
>>53493792 >Sure. But freedom of religion is well accepted human right in the West. They can keep their religion as long as it complies with the law. >Show some compassion and empathy I find it extremely difficult to find compassion and empathy for people who say "Merkel invited us, you have to be kind of us" and have phrases "I'll kill you" and "I want to fuck" written down for reference. What sort of people do you think are evading deportation? Only ones I could feel compassion with are ones that do actually face persecution at home, but those can't be deported already.
>>53494097 fuck off jesus christ you are such a cancerous typical leftist retard ignoring arguments you cant address and deflecting all blame. No one gives a shit about your bullshit utopian fairy tale world and all of us who lived near muslims hate them so just stop posting and save us all the torture of reading your reddit posts
>>53494170 >there is no such thing as moderate Islam literally this, I still remember triggering a Turkish girl back in school. I claimed she doesn't believe in god because she doesn't wear a hijab and my argumentation was that if she actually believed in God she would fear him and if she feared him she would obey him and wear a fucking hijab.
>>53494097 >Why do you think you have a right to Muslim women's bodies? Its gross. I don't think so. And no it's not. It's a just a fucking piece of fabric. Are you really that dumb ? >when early man walked around naked? Pic related Nice fals dichotomy. Again, are you really that dumb ? (also, how pretentious is that woman ?!) >So has hardcore Catholicism It's almost non existent today in France. >You are the one who brought up "brainwashing" like is a real thing you are just playing on words.
>>53494197 I'll say it again Abdul, the Quran has no context. It is, for the most part, a jumbled mess. I encourage everyone here to read it and see for themselves. They'll find that I'm right and find that you're a piece of muslim shit defending the indefensible.
>>53493540 Yeah, I don't agree with sensationalism on either side, you have to sift through a lot of bullshit to find anything worth reading.
>not stacked in their favour I know. Found this as well, in case you were curious how Christians were doing in Egypt, for example. http://egyptianstreets.com/2016/01/06/egypts-president-sisi-vows-to-rebuild-all-destroyed-churches-in-2016/
>>53493668 >OT didn't preach to gentiles. Neither did Jesus though, yet his ideas are applied to everybody, aren't they?
"Exorcising the Canaanite woman's daughter, appears in Matthew 15:21-28 and Mark 7:24-30. A Gentile woman asks Jesus to heal her daughter, but Jesus refuses, saying that he has been sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". The woman persists, saying that "dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table". In response Jesus relents and informs her that her daughter has been healed"
>not in the context of the church the LRA didn't classify itself as devout Christian? What about the inquisition?
>>53493690 >it's a coincidence rape increases everywhere Muslims move? Have you forgotten about India, which is predominantly Hindu?
You've literally looked at one common similarity between everyone and decided that that was the deciding factor. You haven't looked at the connection between poverty and rape, beyond religion or ethnicity. To say you're biased is an understatement.
>>53493919 >It isn't real Christianity either >Orthodox >American w-what? >>53493924 you've read a book, I've lived this life till I decided I had enough of it. In all honesty you lack context, and that is gonna skew your opinion.
>>53493955 >christian ARABS aren't savages (implication that it's religion not race) >calls me a sandnigger despite me being agnostic, thus brining it back to race pic related
>>53494097 >doing what my husband says is highest level of thought and intellect Technically correct, since men are right and women are stupid. Doesn't make it particularly moral or acceptable in western society though.
Not just any book, but the book that Allah dictated to Muhammad through Jabril. The book that contains the direct commands of Allah to the muslims. How is my opinion skewed? I read the Quran and it was pure indefensible shit incompatible with the western world.
great argument once again, true master of debate. I called you a sand nigger because any muslim apologist is a sand nigger,once you stop defending islam like every actual ex muslim who isn't a lying sack of shit you'll stop being a sand nigger.
>>53494402 >Neither did Jesus though, yet his ideas are applied to everybody, aren't they? He did, you admit as much in the next passage (he does in a few other places as well), John 4 and Matthew 8 for 2 more examples. Also St. Paul in particular received the call to preach to all nations. You can find this in the Bible yourself if you care to read it. >the LRA didn't classify itself as devout Christian? What about the inquisition? Those aren't what you talked about in your first post so you are shifting the goalposts here.
>>53494560 >but the book that Allah dictated to Muhammad through Jabril yea no, actually that's not true. It wasnt your prophet who wrote all that stuff down but the people he hang around with.. and unless all of them were autistic savants with photographic memories, the authenticity of the quran is arguable
Listen. Fucking kids isn't a rite of passage nor is it something that's sanctioned or encouraged. At the time, in 600 w/e A.D. , the rule was that a girl could not marry before having her menstrual cycle. That was the defining criterion back then. You're looking at history very misguidedly. A lot of things have progressed in Islam given various schools of thought & their re-interpretation of religious texts. It's not the same anymore. You're thinking using the mindset of an IS fighter, as opposed to an average "Ahmed."
>>53494560 because your opinion is only based on the quran, rather than the schools of thought that have interpreted time and time again.
If you want to legitimately learn and understand things more to come to a more balanced conclusion, that's what I would advise. If not, it's really none of my concern.
>>53494609 You've obviously not read the rest of my argument then.
>those aren't what you talked about in your first post. What I said in my first post was:
>shot up abortion clinics see: Army of God >created child soldier armies "The International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants on 8 July and 27 September 2005, against Joseph Kony, his deputy Vincent Otti, and the LRA commanders Okot Odhiambo, deputy army commander and Dominic Ongwen, brigade commander of the Sania Brigade of the LRA. The four LRA leaders were charged with crimes against humanity and war crimes, including murder, rape, and sexual slavery. Ongwen was the only of the four not charged with recruiting child soldiers. See: LRA >molested children in their churches pretty obvious I hope? >made pariahs of scientists such as Galileo and Darwin Galileo put under house arrest under the "pleasure of the inquisition." See wikipedia article. >burned people at the stake for being the wrong type of christian I think this is documented well enough in the inquisition as well.
>>53494754 Except for the fact our laws are man-made and don't stem from a 2000 year old book, unlike Islam in which all the guidelines to live by are in the Quran and the Quran discourages "innovation" which is changing of the religion.
>>53494758 every muslims argument ever goes like this >out of context! >b-but this group does it too >yes the quran says that but the bible says some bad stuff too! >not all muslims >well I personally don't follow this quran verse and live in the west so surely muslims in their sandy shitholes don't follow those verses too
It's pathetic shit that always goes in circles and every time I see them attempt to defens their shit I end up hating them more
>>53494396 >I don't think so. And no it's not. It's a just a fucking piece of fabric. Are you really that dumb ? So is a shirt and so is pants. All clothes are fabric. You are the one who wants to stop Muslim women from wearing clothes of choice. >It's almost non existent today in France. No its not, but even if it was, its still a product of French history and French culture, just of a different slice of time. So what makes you think the current status of France is the end status?
>>53494552 >And yes WTF, what you said was pretty misogynistic. How so? Keep in mind I am a woman myself. >No it doesn't. Yes it does. For example: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/03/dominique-strauss-kahn-france-culture
Causing a split in French because of how women are treated.
Unmarried Muslim women and convert Muslim women also wear hijab. It has nothing to do with "what husbands say" anymore than women who go bareheaded is because their "husbands say". If anything, women tend to be more religious than men are on average.
Why should women wearing a headscarf be "unacceptable" or "immoral"? Are nuns immoral? What about East Orthodox women who wear babushka? Spanish Catholic who wear mantilla? Medieval Europeans who wore wimples? There's nothing immoral about wearing a headscarf anymore than wearing a skirt.
>>53494217 >All other denominations were schisms from it.
The "schisms" are where the catholic church came from. And the schisms kept going despite being killed and forced to covert by the Catholics everywhere. If it doesn't follow the teachings of Christ or the apostles, it isn't Christianity no matter how old it is or how powerful it becomes. It's like Christianity Islamified, with a violent political twist added. It's biggest problem is how much authority it gave to men, in that it undoes the work of Christ in removing any barrier between man and God. Jesus makes it so you don't need a priesthood and other people teaching you what to believe, but they go ahead and setup this huge line of authority for themselves and tell people they are too stupid to understand scripture for themselves. Paul spends most of the New Testament talking to the churches trying to prevent the catholic church from happening. Telling them basicly - you don't need these guys who you want to place on a pedestal, they are no better than you, I am no better than you, think for yourself and talk to God yourself. But people just gotta have somebody controlling them. That's why the Bible starts off with like two commands, turns into hundreds, but Jesus brings it back to two commands.
>>53494932 It's not just the Quran I take into account (even though it's the most important thing because it is the guide of every muslim), I also take into account the fact that the majority of islamic countries are intolerant shitholes with zero human rights who can't even get along with each other.
>>53494715 >There are no sins in secularism. According to you, a woman not showing you her hair is committing a sin incompatible with the nation of France. > no religious punishments. Are secular punishments better? usually they are worse.
Also you never deny you are bainwashed you just say your brainwashing is different and special. Please.
>>53495058 >it is the guide As you have a constitution, you have a supreme court delegating what works and what doesn't in relation with the spirit of said constitution. That's the role of ulama. Thus, you can have two completely different interpretations based on the same text, which is where disagreement comes in.
> , I also take into account the fact that the majority of islamic countries are intolerant shitholes with zero human rights who can't even get along with each other.
>what is the arab spring >implying this isn't the case anywhere to the south and to the east of the middle east up until the reaches of eastern asia.
>>53494932 >At the time, in 600 w/e A.D. , the rule was that a girl could not marry before having her menstrual cycle. That was the defining criterion back then. And you say this based on what? Like I said even if it wasn't true hundreds of millions of people believe this. The best Muslim scholars have analyzed the hadiths, established their trustworthiness and concluded that Aisha was 6 when they married and that she was 9 years old when Muhammad raped her. Who are you to say you know better than them, you fucking murtad?
>>53494932 >inquisition Wait, is that thing still going on ? I don't think so. What's the point of talking about it ?
>>53494992 >All clothes are fabric. No shit Einstein. That's why they are are not empowering by any mean. They can be submissive on the other hand. And again, they can wear whatever the fuck they want. >>53494992 >No its not Yes it fucking is. Don't talk about my country like you know more about it than I do, you moron. >How so? saying that women can enjoy being submissive to their husband is fucking misogynistic by my book. >Keep in mind I am a woman myself. so fucking what ? >Causing a split in French >strauss-kahn kek no, 99% of France agreed to say he was an absolute cunt. Now do you want to be part of the one 1% ?
>>53494402 >http://egyptianstreets.com/2016/01/06/egypts-president-sisi-vows-to-rebuild-all-destroyed-churches-in-2016/ It's ironic that it has to be Sisi who is doing such gestures instead of the government who formed during Arab spring...
>>53495051 Don't be silly. Catholicism was the earliest form of organized Christianity. If you don't like the Vatican, fine, but that doesn't change history. Every other church out there calls itself "Catholic" precisely because they believe they're carrying the will of the first church.
>>53495108 >>Also you never deny you are bainwashed you just say your brainwashing is different and special. Please.
>How secularism is taught: You can believe what you want but none are backed up by science, therefore it has no basis to be part of the state structure >How Islam is taught: Believe or you go to hell (alternatively: die)
>>53495108 >According to you, a woman not showing you her hair is committing a sin incompatible with the nation of France. not a sin. and again, there are plenty of countries where she can live the way she wants. > usually they are worse. WTF, again.
Also, brainwashed by what ? The only time I felt brainwashed was when I went to church as a kid.
>>53495276 >saying that women can enjoy being submissive to their husband is fucking misogynistic by my book.
Looks like reality is misogynistic then. Are you even a woman at all? How does "your book" count for anything?
>Yes it fucking is. Don't talk about my country like you know more about it than I do, you moron.
No its not. See
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/jul/25/nuns-avignon-gregorian-chant-album http://www.fssp.org/en/coordonnees.htm#France (look how many are in France vs. other countries). http://www.requediou.org/ http://www.fssp.fr/ http://fsspversailles.org/ http://www.croixdesvents.com/
>>53495242 >based on what? It's a verse in the quran.
"As to the authenticity of these reports, it may be noted that the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility."
>>53495276 >what's the point of talking about it? Essentially, what I'm saying is that Islam isn't a monstrous entity when compared to any other abrahamic religion when you correct for how "devoutly" it was followed at the time. As a consequence of European rising incomes, or in your cases, the church screwing you over on taxes, the people lost interest in churches and thus churches had to change their rhetoric just to stay marginally relevant. Thus, making Islam seem like an exceptional demon would be unfounded.
>>53495403 >what was the end result? It's still too early to tell. Upheavals of this scale usually take a while to demonstrate outcomes. Ask me again in 10 years or so.
After all, it took the french an entire reign of terror just to have some form of stability.
>it had nothing to do with freedom as someone who was there at the time, that was the prevailing sentiment/drive/urge at the time. >>53495460 that government was an islamist, populist government. If there's one thing I can recommend, it's to learn from our mistakes with populist governments.
>>53495507 >Nicene Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE, when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion. The Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Catholic Church each claim to be the historical continuation of this church in its original form.
>>53487312 Islam is a disease and muslims are infected dogs carrying it. Don't get me wrong though, I do not hate the people from the area, nor their race, but I despise their religion and their culture that is tainted by it.
>>53495724 >WTF, again. I have sinned (masturbation, given blow job, not attend church, etc etc etc). My punishment is that I should talk to a priest and ask for forgiveness. (Which I may do someday if I want). After I did that my entire "punishment" would be to say an Our Father or two.
If I were to break the law though I'd be fined a high amount of money or even thrown in jail even for trivial offenses. I had to pay ~$200 ticket for speeding (11 mph over, the area wasn't clearly marked) which was a big chunk of change for me at the time.
Sorry but I'll take the religious punishment any day. How great would it be if the officer let me go by saying "say 3 Hail Marys and ask for Gods forgiveness"? I'd take it in a heartbeat.
Secular punishments are always worse by their very nature. Religious punishments always simply ask for a change of heart, and allow god to judge your heart after you die, since he knows you and your intentions better than any government official.
>Also, brainwashed by what ? The only time I felt brainwashed was when I went to church as a kid. If you are "feeling brainwashed" tehn you aren't actually being brainwashed. I suppose "secular brainwashing" would come from your media or whoever taught you that the secular lifestyle was the best one. (Not than brainwashing is even a real thing either way)
>>53495734 >Are you even a woman at all No but I'm human. It works both ways. >No its not. See I said almost non existent. Non of the websites you've quoted are well known. You are just twisting my words again.
>>53496015 >would be to say an Our Father or two. Yeah, but that's in the case where your religion isn't batshit insane
>If you are "feeling brainwashed" tehn you aren't actually being brainwashed kek >whoever taught you that the secular lifestyle was the best one. I just got bored of it. I don't live by any creed. I actually can't stand most atheists. >Because of the dire economic and socio-political prospects Yeeeeaaaah, no. It has been the case since almost forever in that region of the globe, even when the ottoman empire was rich as fuck. You have to go way back.
>>53496251 >>Because of the dire economic and socio-political prospects >Yeeeeaaaah, no. It has been the case since almost forever in that region of the globe, even when the ottoman empire was rich as fuck. >You have to go way back.
>>53496001 Germany and Sweden are great countries to live in. Their extreem-leftism is the only reason you could dislike them, but no matter how you look at it: they are not at all shitholes to live int. 99% of people would reader live in Sweden than in Russia. That's just a fact.
I mean, be real here. >terrible roads >widespread corruption >massive amounts of kremlin-controlled propaganda >semi-tolitarianism where opposers of the Kremlin literally get killed
Russia is shit. Just say the words. Be the first Russian to be honest to himself.
>Yeah, but that's in the case where your religion isn't batshit insane
It would be a big scandal if an American mosque was shown to be locking people up in the basement, fining people hundreds of thousands of dollars for minor offenses, or giving people the electric jail/injecting them with poison for major offenses.
The secular government is what does these things. By far, at least in the USA or even in France, the secular institutions are far harsher and more violent than the religious ones.
>No but I'm human. It works both ways. Both ways what? What's wrong with a woman who wants to be submissive to her bf/husband? Some women find happiness in that.
>>53496058 Or the lack of a sufficient democratic culture given the existence of suppressive autocratic regimes as well? Someone forgot their french revolution history, and how crazy that was until things settled down.
>>53496325 Ottoman Empire was equally as extractive as a state tbqh. That's the problem, nothing's changed since then for the average Ahmed.
>>53496386 >everything that I don't agree with is deflection >fuck all other Islamic schools of thought, mine is the only sound one >I'm totally not forming a theory to fit my opinion.
>you're a muslim I'm a rational human being. If you go up, I've explained why I'm agnostic; I cannot prove or disprove the existence of a god. I can explain Islam insofar as I have experienced it, and hopefully rectify misconceptions. If you don't want to listen, or see no reason to, that's your prerogative.
>ulema aren't doing a good job There's a lot of interpretations of the same text, of coure there's bound to be differences. I don't see what's so surprising about this. Just as a constitution has different interpretations that vary on a lot of things, so does the Quran. I appreciate the Popperian approach though, all that being said.
>>53496543 Saudi Arabia as a state was established only because Saud swore fealty to a rivaling faction called Al-Wahhab, whos support he needed to march on Mecca. The tribal nature of Saudi Arabia, or at least the patrilineal aspect of it has stayed the same for the most part, so it's a policy of appeasing Al-Wahhab to avoid harming the country significantly. Now that it's begun to bite them in the ass, they're slowly trying to isolate the Al-Wahhab family.
>Qatar Qatar's playing politics, it wants to be a regional force. They tried the same shit with the MB in Egypt, so much so that they were the only Arab state to take in MB members when the system collapsed in 2013. It's not ideologically driven, it's who can make my wishes happen most effectively.
>>53496656 You keep taling about these "schools of thought" and other crap and DEFLECTING AWAY FROM THE WORDS IN THE QURAN, WHICH ARE THE WORDS OF ALLAH. Go back to Morocco if islamic society is so fucking great then. Seriously, fuck off and take your family with you if you're just gonna defend a subhuman religion that you say you dont adhere to.
>>53496912 I don't think you understand how Ulama were mandated as torch-bearers by Mohammed himself. They didn't just spring out of the ground and justify their existence. I know that fundamentally screws over your argument, but that's what it is. Interpretation is not the same as deflection, not by a long shot. These people devote themselves to the study of the Quran from day one. They know the book by heart, and in order to become an alim (singular form). If you want to ignore 1400 years of context just so you can stick to your argument, so be it. But know that you were btfo.
>fuck off and take your family I DON'T NEED NO WHITE MAN TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO MHMMMMM
It's medieval barbarism brought into the 21st century. There's are many different schools of Islam, but the main two that rule over 90% of them are extremely intolerant and incompatible with western values. Vast majority of people want hijabs banned like France for example.
>>53497287 I forgot to mention that in Islam if someone wants to get married they have to ask permission from their parents. " Ma malikat aymanokom" or "what your right hands posess" is a way of expressing marriage in old arabic. So the implication in 24:58 is when they should ask and how many times, and then in 24:59 it specifies that those who have reached puberty can wed.
>>53497309 I'm fine with that. Just to put it in context though, what you've adopted is a salafist position. There's a lot of other schools that would then disagree with that.
But I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, if that's what you want.
>>53497622 >Ma malikat aymanokom" or "what your right hands posess" is a way of expressing marriage in old arabic Not really though? It's a reference to slaves. Is there any tafsirs that interpret these verses as prescribing marriage laws?
>>53498111 Mm I still don't get how that verse would be talking about marriage laws. By the message it delivers It is attached to the preceding one which clarifies when Muslim children and "those who your right hand possesses" can enter another Muslims's room (it meantions the times of the day when a Muslims has privacy), the verse 24:59 talks about the same shit in the case of adult Muslims.
>>53498582 The whole notion of obtaining permission is the implication here. "let them ask permission [at all times] as those before them have done.
If they want to get married, let them ask for your permission, as is per custom/tradition. It was a paternalistic society, everything had to go through your parents till you were your own man/had your own family. Precondition was puberty. The thing with entering the rooms is simply the most optimal times to for someone to ask their parents for permission in complete privacy, hence at dawn (when people had just gotten up and were on their own) and so on.
>>53498855 The fuck are you on about? Slaves and children should ask permission to enter the room only on 3 occasions, adults should always ask permission. End of story. Literally nothing about marriage here.
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