>>53128788 Yet they have managed to settle down in the best place to live in Romania - Covasna and Harghita. I'm melting here, in August in western Moldova at 38℃ and they barely have 30... In winter it's even better since I really love low temperatures and snow. They have cities surrounded by mountains, but not so fertile lands to be honest. But as expected, their Mongol temper has sought for cold.
>>53123072 It's more like AUSTRIA-hungary, because these uncivilized Huns have done nothing but even hampered their progress - it's like POLAND-lithuania. I'm glad they broke up, as we have seen Hungary couldn't even defend their so-called territories.
>>53127912 Yes, you have been helped because you were too slack by yourself. Your Arpad have managed to beat, cowardly, only some chieftains. Scarcely our chieftains had settled down in Transylvania when they were attacked by some uncivilized people from the west. But we had beaten you in 1330, and then you sought for help against Ottomans from either Wallachians, Poles or Austrians.
>>53129365 The upper classes probably Latin and the language of the most powerful neighbour. Who cares about the peasantry. German peasant couldn't speak Latin either and didn't understand jack in court or church. Modern Slovene is to a large part a reconstructed language, reconstructed by university students and the likes.
>>53129599 But aside from a couple dozen thousand Prekmurians (Vends, as they were called), Slovenians lived in the HRE, not in Hungary. Also, sermons on the territory south of the Drava river were held in Slovene, not in German, which is why the population here remained Slavic. Many of the bishops of Ljubljana right from the establishment of the bishopric in the mid 15th century were Slovenes.
>>53129595 Yeah m8, Latin was important for a long, long time. In the HRE books in German only started to outnumber books in Latin in the 1700's. The elites in what is today Slovenia were German or Germanized and during the spring of nations and in the 1900's the Slovene language was systematically cleaned from centuries of German loanwoards, grammar was inspired by Czech etc, there was influence from the Illyrians etc.
>>53129482 Because you are too conceited for an unworthy alliance. Basically when you have a historical argument it's more about how Austria helped you while you have searched for help. We were supposed to be friends until Charles I, your slanted-eyed king persecuted Romanians from Transylvania based only on religion. Your country has always been inferior, you die-hard Mongol.
>>53129682 Haha, it was mostly Austria's worth, as I said in my foregoing comment.
>>53129732 latin being important and documents being written in latin doesn't mean that it was actually used in day to day conversation, especially not post 17th century, when even the church itself started using french and italian for their documents.
The language of the nobility in slovenian lands was german, since they were pretty much german yes.
>>53129905 I know language is an important part of identity in such small countries but it doesn't change the truth. Some isolated farmers speaking their own form of Slovene without interference doesn't mean anything. Are you seriously trying to deny the existence of Romantic Nationalism and all the efforts at nation building that came with it in basically every European country?
>>53129732 >Pred oseminudvaseti lejti, tedaj kedar sem v Loki per Radočeju farmošter bil, je bila gori nad Kompolom v vinogradih ena baba; ta seje svetila inu pravila, s. Sebastijan inu s. Roh vsako nuč k niprideta, ž no govorita inu velita, de se nima na tim hribu nad Kompolom inu Šemačino ena cerkev sturi inu sezida; aku tiga ne dajo,taku hočta čez ludi inu čez živino tako pomor inu žlize poslati, demalu ludi inu živine žive ostane; onadva tudi hočta vse vinograde inupole s točo pobiti. Takim babskim hudičevim marinam so ti preprosti ljudje verovali, inu zdajci od lesa inu desak sture eno kapelico inozačno undu mašovati, živinu inu drugu blagu ofrovati inu perpravlati kamine h timu zidanu. Ampak jest sem takimu zidanu inu ofrovanu močnu super pridigal inu govuril; za tiga volo so mene hoteli ti farmani na Šemačini biti, de sem od nih moral pobegniti. Natu pošlem mujga vikarja, gospud Jerneja Rugelna, h ti babi inu pustim vprašati, v kateri uri inu v kakovi štalti ta dva svetnika k ni hodita; natu je ona djala, ob pulnoči vselej dva lipa črna moža k ni prideta. H timu je gospud Jernej rekel: "Nekar ne pravi, de sta črna, temuč de sta bela, zakaj ti zludji so črni, svetniki so beli." Ona odgovori: "Ja gospud, jest hočo reči, da sta bela." Glih taku ena druga baba je hotela imejti, de bi se bila ta tretja cerkov gori na Bruniki per tih Trijeh kralih zidala. Blizi mujga rojeniga domu per Rastičici je ena cerkov Divice Marije, kir seprvi na Silevici.
Slovenian from c. 1550. I can trace maybe three German borrowings in the entire paragraph, and pretty much all of the text is comprehensible to the speaker of a czechified, illyricized language that I am.
no, but what you're implying is that basically, a few isolated farmers spoke slovene in the lands populated by german nobles, then the language itself was literally recreated (your words) and spread to the germano latins or whatever.
I'm not denying any romantic nationalism, but the language wasn't recreated. I mean, I don't even understand where you're coming from, there's tons of slovene literature pre 1830s which is clearly recognisable, the 19th century efforts were mostly to do with the writing system itself and slight "face lifting".
I mean, it would be okay if you were just shitposting, but you come here with a very limited scope of knowledge and then try to argue an absurd point and it's just ridiculous
>>53130018 >Some isolated farmers Some rich Germanised Nobility speaked German/Romance, otherwise Slovenian was majority in Krain, Karnten, South Styria and Gorz. Thus Nobility in those lands offcialy used German-Romance langangue they would still communicate in Slovenian in majority of time
>>53130127 Yeah, you're so heated up you can't even read what I wrote. Isolated texts can prove nothing, I can find texts in German were every second word is a French loanword, means nothing. Apart from that, replacing the German influence through the influx of other Slavic languages came during the Romantic period, not the 1500's.
>>53130341 And you're so convinced in your own theory that you ignore the fact that this, a Slovenian text written by a mid 16th century parish priest who was in the employ of the bishops of Triest and then Laibach, contains virtually no German whatsoever. Nor do the texts in Slovene of later 18th century priests contain any more German. The conclusion is therefore that the Slovenian language did not appreciably change in the Romantic period.
>>53130321 I never said the language was created from scratch out of whatever Slavic language they could find. I'm saying there was a guided effort to purify and rework the language later on, with a lot of it coming from students who were, amongst others, inspired by the Illyrian movement. It was a process of actively shaping the language. As such there could not be a possibility for any kind of use of the language in the middle ages or renaissance, as you bemoaned, because it didn't exist as a language of high culture yet. By the way in the German parts of the HRE everyone spoke different dialects as well, do you think some guy from Bavaria could understand someone from the north during the imperial diet if everyone spoke their local dialect? This only slowly developed after Luther.
>>53130323 already in denial mode "nobody actually spoke German", just go all in with your nationalism then.
The words "Buge waz primi, gralva Venus!" ("God be With You, Queen Venus!"), with which Bernhard von Spanheim greeted the poet Ulrich von Liechtenstein upon his arrival to Carinthia in 1227 (or 1238), is another example of some level of Slovene knowledge among high nobility in the region.
Sorry for the wiki as I didn't recall the exact words.
>>53130341 What isolated texts? The installation of dukes of Carinthia which took place in Slovene as late as the 15th century and described by several different historical sources including the bloody Pope? The various Slovene texts still present in, what are today, Austrian churches?
>>53130435 >yfw we literally had the most decorated unit in the A-H army
>They defended successfully their positions on Skabrijel and their heroism and persistence must be credited for the decoration of their 18th brigade's commander colonel Laxa with the high Order of Marie-Therese. Historian Veith wrote in 1952 in an Austrian military newspaper that "...this regiment then went through the worst fighting that any Austrian unit ever saw." The 87th Regiment of Celje was considered to be one of the best units in Austria-Hungarian army.
>>53130341 Slovenian language has little common to other nearby Slavic languges. But it was germanized in some part of Slovenia. > I can find texts in German were every second word is a French loanword But you cant find old slovenian text were every second word is German or South-Slavic loanword
>>53130587 >a Slovenian text written by a mid 16th century parish priest who was in the employ of the bishops of Triest and then Laibach, contains virtually no German whatsoever
It means nothing, before there was a set of fixed rules everyone could write and talk the way he wanted. If this guy didn't know any loanwords then he couldn't use them, some other might have just used loanwords en masse because he preferred them. There are medieval texts were today people have no idea where the writer's were from because their use of words is all over the place, including dialects and figures of speech from various places, like some guy phonetically writing out a mix of cockney and redneck American English today.
>>53130636 >I'm saying there was a guided effort to purify and rework the language later on And you were literally proven wrong.
> with a lot of it coming from students who were, amongst others, inspired by the Illyrian movement The illyrian movement was never strong here, lmao. Do you make up shit on the spot or what? Besides that Slovene literally had an official status during the Napoleonic Illyrian provinces before the so-called Illyrian movement became a thing. Which, again, was not popularized here and pertains mainly to Croatia.
>>53130637 yes i know i was just baiting >Boroević persisted with thirty of his detachments, maintaining that the Slovenes would stand their ground when faced with the defense of their own country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetozar_Boroevi%C4%87
>>53130636 > I'm saying there was a guided effort to purify and rework the language later on, with a lot of it coming from students who were, amongst others, inspired by the Illyrian movement
Can you show literally any evidence of that, apart from the changes to the writing system?
>It was a process of actively shaping the language. As such there could not be a possibility for any kind of use of the language in the middle ages or renaissance, as you bemoaned, because it didn't exist as a language of high culture yet.
what the fuck are you even talking about? Do you mean to say that a language can be high culture only if it's "purified of germanisms?" what????
Oh and, a court of law was a thing everyone, from a simple peasant, to a middlesome burgher to a nobleman could be subjected to.
>>53130792 I agree with you, but i don't really get what are you trying to prove germanbro. All languages were constructed artificially, through establishing a grammar and then introduced in school system, by requiring proper use in newspapers etc... Before that it was all dialects but no language. But this is true everywhere.
For example, i live near Friuli, and Friulan is like a completely different language to Italian. I mean all languages were constructed and then enforced.
>>53130827 >In the 1820s and 1830s, Kopitar became involved in the Slovene Alphabet War (Slovene: Abecedna vojna, or Črkarska pravda), a debate over orthographic reform. He supported radical reforms of the old Bohorič alphabet, advanced first by Peter Dajnko and then by Franc Serafin Metelko. The issue was resolved with the compromise adoption of Gaj's Latin alphabet. Čop and Kopitar also disagreed on the issue of whether the Slovenes should develop their own national culture. Kopitar favored gradual evolution towards a common literary language for all South Slavic peoples, with Slovene dialects remaining the colloquial language of the peansantry. Čop, on the other hand, insisted on the creation of a high culture in Slovene that would follow contemporary literary trends.
>The Slovenian alphabet, introduced in the mid-1840s, is also a variation of Gaj's Latin alphabet (the only difference is the lack of the letters ć and đ).
>During the rise of Romantic Nationalism in the 19th century, the cultural movements of Illyrism and Pan-Slavism brought words from Serbo-Croatian and Czech into standard Slovene, mostly to replace words previously borrowed from German. Most of these innovations have remained, although some were dropped in later development. In the second half of the 19th century, many nationalist authors made an abundant use of Serbo-Croatian words: among them were Fran Levstik and Josip Jurčič, who wrote the first novel in Slovene in 1866. This tendency was reversed in the Fin de siècle period by the first generation of modernist Slovene authors (most notably the writer Ivan Cankar), who resorted to a more "pure" and simple language without excessive Serbo-Croatian borrowings.
doesn't sound like "nothing changed from middle ages to today" to me
>>53131093 >1866 until fin de siecle (so, about 30 years) until reversal >"many" >Josip Jurčič used serbo-croatian loan words extensively >this 30 year long shebang somehow makes the entire language recreated
>>53131093 >Slovene Alphabet War I dont know what has Alphabet to do with language. > creation of a high culture in Slovene That one is true. They wanted to counter all German Speaking nobility. But it doesn't change language much
>>53131093 >The Freising Manuscripts are a record of a proto-Slovene language that was spoken in a much larger territory than modern Slovene, which included most of the present-day Austrian states of Carinthia and Styria, as well as East Tyrol, the Val Pusteria in South Tyrol, and some areas of Upper and Lower Austria.
>The first printed Slovene words, stara pravda (meaning 'old justice'), appeared in 1515 in Vienna in a poem of the German mercenaries who suppressed the Slovene peasant revolt. Standard Slovene emerged in the second half of the 16th century, thanks to the works of Slovene Lutheran authors, who were active during the Protestant Reformation. The most prominent authors from this period are Primož Trubar, who wrote the first books in Slovene; Adam Bohorič, the author of the first Slovene grammar; and Jurij Dalmatin, who translated the entire Bible into Slovene.
>>53131093 Doesn't sound like a re-constructed language either, you dumb ass. It's called standardization.
>>In the 1820s and 1830s, Kopitar became involved in the Slovene Alphabet War (Slovene: Abecedna vojna, or Črkarska pravda), a debate over orthographic reform. He supported radical reforms of the old Bohorič alphabet, advanced first by Peter Dajnko and then by Franc Serafin Metelko. The issue was resolved with the compromise adoption of Gaj's Latin alphabet. Čop and Kopitar also disagreed on the issue of whether the Slovenes should develop their own national culture. Kopitar favored gradual evolution towards a common literary language for all South Slavic peoples, with Slovene dialects remaining the colloquial language of the peansantry. Čop, on the other hand, insisted on the creation of a high culture in Slovene that would follow contemporary literary trends. Which has nothing to do with the language but with the literary standard-orthography.
>>The Slovenian alphabet, introduced in the mid-1840s, is also a variation of Gaj's Latin alphabet (the only difference is the lack of the letters ć and đ). Which replaced the previous alphabet used during the middle ages. Fun fact, the Germans standardized theirs even later. I don't see what this has to do with the spoken language.
For fucks sake, literally the first printed Slovene words were printed by German HRE mercenaries in 1515, the first grammar book came shortly there after as well as the first printed book while you're talking about some reconstruction, lmao. There's a clear continuity from as early as the 11th century and all the way to the 21st.
At no point was the language re-constructed or brought from the dead, it was merely standardized.
>>53130672 >Slovenian language has little common to other nearby Slavic languges.
Slovenian is actually nearly identical to Croatian from an outside perspective. I believe 85% of our vocabulary is near identical.
>>53130637 Buge waz primi gralva Venus isn't understandable at all, but experts claim that it is in fact congruent with the modern-day Gailtal/Ziljsko dialect of Slovenian that is still spoken in that region.
>>53130792 Good point, and yet there is a difference between the radical procedures of Romanian linguists who literally threw out half of their vocabulary and imported Italian in its place, and the minor adjustments made by Romantic-era Slovene linguists to the language precedent set by the aforementioned parish priest.
>>53131093 Yes, 19th century texts can be overtly similar to Croatian, but as the paragraph explains, this was merely a detour, and not a stage in the final constitution of literary Slovenian.
>>53132383 I'm curious, do young Croats notice a difference between modern Croatian with its more abundant kajkavian borrowings and the Serbo-Croatian that was taught to your (grand)parents? Are there cases where your elders would use a word that you already consider antiquated?
>>53132519 "Croatian" is a part of a larger, Serbo-Croatian language. A defining part of it, but still, only a "half" This could have been applied to Slovene, but political reasons that our intellectuals refused to see have held the Slovene back from joining this linguistic union
>>53132272 > I believe 85% of our vocabulary is near identical. Only when you include Kajkavian, with Standard Croatian the intelligibility falls.
It's decreases drastically if you compare certain dialects with standard Croatian or with certain other Croatian dialects.
>Buge waz primi gralva Venus isn't understandable at all Literally the only word out of place there is "gralva" which can be easily explained by K morphing into a G. Kraljeva-Graljeva-Gralva. Bog vas primi kraljeva Venera
I seriously doubt you're even a native speaker at this point and/or your knowledge of Slovene is somehow limited strictly to the literary standard.
>>53132742 I think the reason why Slovenian is not part of Serbo-Croatian today is because Slovene intellectuals stipulated that certain Slovene elements, such as the comparatively more conservative Slovene grammatical cases replace some of the standard Slovene ones if Slovene was to join the Vienna Agreement. But Croatian intellectuals always firmly denied Slovenian any role in their standard language and insisted that Slovenian is just a peasant vernacular, a part of kajkavian, that has no place in letters.
>>53132818 You can doubt as much as you want, but the Illyrian movement, as the entire pan-Slavic concept started with Croats. The Illyrian movement consisted of Croatian and Slovene intellectuals working together against Austrian and Hungarian influence. Serbs were introduced to it later, with more extreme "South Slavia" ideas (that all people from the Alps to the Black sea are one and the same Slavs with a different dialect)
When Croats cut the Serbs in, Slovenes backed out because they didn't want to have a ijekavian standard, but in the end, Serbs decided to use the ekavian standard. It played out like fucking poetry
>>53132742 >This could have been applied to Slovene, but political reasons that our intellectuals refused to see have held the Slovene back from joining this linguistic union Our intellectuals were never keen on joining any such union, only a marginalized minority did, including Stanko Vraz who was mad because Slovene newspapers wouldn't publish in his shitty Styrian dialect (thank god).
>>53132943 >But Croatian intellectuals always firmly denied Slovenian any role in their standard language and insisted that Slovenian is just a peasant vernacular, a part of kajkavian, that has no place in letters. I'm going to need more on this, because in our textbooks, it's clearly pointed out that Croatian and Slovene academics worked on uniting two languages, Croatian and Slovene, not demoting themselves. And it is true that by "Croatian", they meant hybridization of Kajkavian and applying it even in Dalmatia, because most of our resources, administration and "might" was concentrated in parts where a hybrid Šćakavian-Kajkavian was spoken
>>53132872 Kraljeva becoming kralva is unimaginable to me because the stressed syllable would have to be taken out, and also because gralva strongly reminds me of sveti gral. Maybe I just have a limited linguistic imagination.
>>53133103 >>53133108 I just read your wikipedia article on it. It's completely written in a negative light, while ours is written in a more "let's unite, hand under hand" style of "it was a good concept, but butthurt people ruined it"
>>53133085 You are aware that the word "Kralj" comes from the personal name of "Karolus" The great? Right? If Karolus could morph into Kralj, I really don't see how it's so impossible that Kralj morphed into Gral.
So, anyway, let's assume "gralva" has nothing to do with kraljeva. What part of "Buge was primi" is not understandable to you?
>>53133424 >It's completely written in a negative light Where? It's just a fact that the majority, and the most prominent, Slovene intellectuals were never that keen on the idea, with Prešeren himself being opposed to it.
I don't know why Croats keep pushing the idea that Slovene intellectuals were somehow a big part of it and that we "dropped" out later on, when that's simply not true.
>>53133658 This was what Gaj, as a self-hating kajkavian and a leader in his field believed, but it was not always the majority opinion in Zagreb.
>>53133626 It's not that it wasn't understandable, but the vocative is not something I associate with Slovenian. In other words, the sentence is so historically remote that it does not resemble Slovene moreso than another Slavic language. I don't claim that it actually is another language, just that it's a really fucking ancient way of speaking Slovene.
>>53133750 Because we're accustomed to earning lots. Why put up with Slovene coffee sportists when you could earn a hefty "manča" on Swedes and Germans? Offer your services to the highest bidder, is it not?
Keep importing those Belgradians...find someone to blame when they start putting tree logs and proclaiming Cafe Srpska
>>53133857 Slavonia and Dalmatia would not stand with this Kajkavian agression. Štokavian was a language Croats wrote in since the 16th century and it even intensified with Serbian migrations. This was now a full fledged language with capital works under its belt and many, many influential South Slavic thinkers wrote in it. No matter how much Serbs claim this or that, Štokavian is a joint heritage, a house that Croats built too. Much more than Serbs did
You'd need to reeducate a good few million people in your kajkavian sprache, which is truly appalling...
>>53133857 >I don't claim that it actually is another language, just that it's a really fucking ancient way of speaking Slovene. No, you claimed, and let me quote "Buge waz primi gralva Venus isn't understandable at all". Of course it's an ancient way of speaking Slovene, it's 700 years old for fucks sake.
Fun fact, the German used at the time is even less understandable.
>>53134090 We shouldn't have made it a "Croatian" part but name it "Slavia". Slovenes would be a good counterweight against all the Serbs and Muslims in Bosnia...Although I'm very sure Slovenes would find a way to work against us using these minorities
>>53134090 And yet it was precisely mgr. Anton Korošec, an MP in the Austrian parliament and the later Yugoslavian minister of the interior, who was at Emperor Karl.'s side to tell him 'it's too late, your excellency', when he proposed a final draft of the federalization plan for the monarchy right after WWI.
>>53134211 >Bog vas primi, or even bog vas sprejmi, still makes no sense in modern Slovene though. It makes sense, it's just not a phrase you'd ever hear. I sincerely doubt you'd be dumb founded if someone said that to you. Would you ask for a translation or would you just assume it was a greeting?
>>53134333 >"Pojdi" is literally an imperative, a hillbilly way of writing "Pođi" (Go) >"Dojdi" is a hillbilly imperative of writing "Dođi" (Come) "Pojmo", "Pejmo" and "Pojdimo" are literally synonyms of "Gremo"-let's go
It's why I told you it's not the same (you filthy Dalmatian)
>>53134401 As I said, those are usually employed by hillbillies, which truly explains the nature and purpose of """kajkavian""". To be employed in agriculture, peasant matters possibly. Let the urban man use Štokavian or Dalmatian, if he feels more patrician
Tell me, which is the most soothing and appealing:
>"En jezik ni nikoli dovolj" >"Jedan jezik nikad nije dovoljan" >"Joina langa nu na buosta"
>here, have a peak at some history >Croatian delegations attempted to attain trialism throughout the entire World War I, but even though they had support from emperor Karl I (IV), they were always declined and vetoed by the Hungarian side, which wanted to preserve the integrity of the Hungarian crown.
>Emperor Karl's manifest of 14 October 1918 was rejected by the declaration of the National Council in Zagreb.
>President of the Croatian pro-monarchy political party Pure Party of Rights Dr. Aleksandar Horvat, with parliament members Ivo Frank and Josip Pazman, and generals Lukas Šnjarić and Mihael Mihaljević, went to visit king Karl I (IV) on 21 October 1918 in Bad Ischl. Since the king was favorable to the earlier Croatian trialist proposals from 1917, which where vetoed by the Hungarian side, the king agreed and signed the trialist manifest under the proposed terms set by the delegation, on the condition that the Hungarian part does the same since he swore an oath on the integrity of the Hungarian crown. The delegation went the next day to Budapest where it met Count Istvan Tisza and presented the manifest on 22 October 1918 to the Hungarian Council of Ministers led by Hungarian prime minister Sándor Wekerle, who released the king from his oath, and signed the manifest on the creation and unification of all Croatian lands into a single state. After the signing of the manifest, in Zagreb Fran Milobar got a telegram to prepare a public proclamation of the creation of "Zvonimir's kingdom".
>According the Croatian delegation in Budapest after the signing the trialist manifest Count Istva Tisza stated "Ich sehe ein, dass wir gegenüber Kroatien grosse Fehler begangen haben" (I realized that we have made some great mistakes forwards Croatia).
>>53134207 why? slovenes had no national identity, no history, no state of their own.. they would go with the flow, as always
>>53134606 >1. slavenski jezik, zvuci kao da si je covjek popio malo previse gemista >2. pravi cisti slavenski izricaj, hrvatski knjizevni jezik >3. talijanizirani digicki cu.ck kvazi dijalekt rasteze glasove, za debile i ljude kojima je sol izjela mozak
>The curiosity is that no act of Sabor dethroned king Karl I, nor did it acknowledge the entering in a state union with Serbia, which is today mentioned in the preamble of the Constitution of Croatia. tfw we still have habsburgs
>>53134815 A-H censuses determined nationality by everyday language, which is why Croats and Serbs are counted together. Note that this is also the casual Slovenian attitude even today: only language determined nationality.
According to the pact, Italy was to leave the Triple Alliance and join Triple Entente; Italy was to declare war against Germany and Austria-Hungary within a month (this happened against Austria-Hungary within a month, but not until 1916 against Germany). Assuming victory against Germany and its allies, the Triple Entente promised Italy the following territorial gains (see Italia irredenta) at the end of the war:
Tyrol, partitioned in 1918, parts remaining Austrian referred to as Nordtirol and Osttirol, but part of one Federal State of Tirol
Territories promised to Italy by the Antante on the Eastern Adriatic, in the Austrian Littoral and Dalmatia The entire Austrian Littoral, including the port of Trieste and the Cherso-Lussino (Cres-Lošinj) archipelago, but without the island of Krk (Veglia) and the Hungarian port of Fiume (Rijeka). Northern Dalmatia, including Zara (Zadar), Sebenico (Šibenik), and most of the Dalmatian islands, except Arbe (Rab) and Brač. The districts of Vipava, Idrija and Ilirska Bistrica in the Austrian Duchy of Carniola. The townships of Pontebba (Pontafel) and Malborghetto Valbruna (Malborgeth-Wolfsbach) in the Austrian Duchy of Carinthia. The Dodecanese Islands (held by Italy since 1912)
The Kingdom of Serbia, which was not present nor a signatory, was assigned:
The Dalmatian coast between the Krka and Stagno (Ston), including the Sabbioncello peninsula (Pelješac), the port of Split, and the island of Brazza (Brač). The Kingdom of Montenegro, which was not present nor a signatory, was assigned:
The Dalmatian coast between Budua (Budva) and Stagno (Ston), including Ragusa (Dubrovnik) and Bocche di Cattaro (Boka Kotorska), but without the Sabbioncello (Pelješac) peninsula; The coast south to the Albanian port of Shengjin (San Giovanni di Medua). Also, but less precisely, Serbia was assigned:
Bosnia and Herzegovina Syrmia Bačka Slavonia (against Italian objections)
>>53135361 I'm sorry, did I trigger you by providing the name of the Carniolan parliament that was responsible for the governance of Carniola and elected trough a popular vote, convened in Slovene, and passed laws regarding the crown land?
>>53135388 >Thanks to the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes forming thus putting us on the winning side of the war. Is your history this bad? exactly. Was our diplomacy really that good or was god on our side?
damn, i knew NDH causes butthurt even in slowenia? is it because of those 6 pissant villages? https://www.google.hr/search?q=slovenija+tu%C5%BEi+NDH&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=-_qLVvWFCMuqsgHIopyoAQ kek
>>53135509 >I'm sorry, did I trigger you by providing the name of the Carniolan parliament that was responsible for the governance of Carniola and elected trough a popular vote, convened in Slovene, and passed laws regarding the crown land? yea sure mate you forgot to add a slovene brought americans to do moon there tho kek
>>53135422 slokokovenci su veći jazavci od serva dbi
>Ljudevit found assistance among the Karantanian and Carniolan Slavs who, as neighbours of the margravate of Friuli, were jeopardized the same as the Pannonians. >The Franks sent a large army led by the new Margrave of Friuli, duke Baldric of Friuli to meet Ljudevit in autumn, the same year while he was conscripting more Carantanian troops along the river of Drava. The Frankish forces had numerical advantage, so they pushed Ljudevit and his men from Carniola across the Drava. Ljudevit had to fall back to central parts of his realm. Balderic didn't push to chase Ljudevit, since he had to pacify the Karantanians. >Ljudevit was welcomed at the unnamed Serbian ruler's court, but Ljudevit tricked him, killing the ruler and then taking the power for himself. Some believe the Serbian ruler was an ally of the Franks and Ljudevit thought that he was about to betray him. Ljudevit soon sent an envoy to the Frankish court, claiming that he is ready to recognize the Frankish Emperor Louis the Pious as his supreme ruler. >Ljudevit's reign was not very well accepted amongst the Serbs, so he fled to Borna's uncle, Ljudemisl of Dalmatia. Ljudemisl had Ljudevit killed in 823. >Carantania retained its internal independence until 828 when the local princes, following the anti-Frankish rebellion of Ljudevit Posavski, were deposed and gradually replaced by a Germanic (primarily Bavarian) ascendancy.
>>53136133 Are you that guy that clings to any even vaguely possible linguistic tie? Bavarians have nothing to do with Avars who were present in Pannonia, in fact the Bavarians helped the Slavic Carantanias defeat the Avars and in exchange Carantanians became de-facto vassals to the Bavarians. Much of what is today Austria was then christianized and germanized both trough gradual assimilation and german settlement in the following centuries especially after several rebelions where most of the local nobility was killed off or assimilated and replaced by Bavarian ones, it's why you only see minor slavic nobility after a few centuries.
>>53135691 >zakaj se to zgodi dobesedno vsakič? "Zašto se ovo dogodi svaki put?" "Porque esto ocurre todo el tiempo?" "Пoчeмy eтo пpoиcхoдит paз oт paзy? "Perché questo accade ogni volta?" "Pourquoi est-ce que ça arrive tout le temps?"
>an ancient assburger draw his fantasy land map in 20th century >he made up a fairy tale about a support from the emperor (who was irrelevant anyway as the only thing he achieved was losing the world war) >HURRR HRVATSKA STRONK WE RULE SLOVENIA AND SHIT
>>53136783 It's accurate in that it's very well researched esp for the time. See the kaleidoscope cluster of ethnic groups in Dogruja for example.
Also, a clue if you want to tell if a map is well researched and not politically biased: there were,from time immemorial vlach/romanian shepherds that settled deep into what is now ukraine(and historically the balks too,but they branched into aromanians/istro-romanians etc), they founded most if not all of the villages in that part as bases for but kept a very light presence overall with only a couple of small permanent settlements and a lot of sheepfold "bases" for winter/summer use. Since they didn't have any state/political ambition(most had roots in the Carpathians and Wallachia) in an area which they regarded as foreign pasture land and the ruskies were(just like today) incapable of producing any foodstuff other than grain in sufficient quantity they got along great with the ruskies and as such did not show up on the political radar. So if a map has those clusters east of Moldova then it's a map worthy of consideration since the researchers took the time to track out more obscure settlements.
>>53137746 >anything west of the Odra >polish culture >ever
why do Poles constantly push this meme? It's like with Croats claiming that Bosnians aren't a nation, despite Croats not having any better a claim to nationhood than Bosnians. But I digress. Polabians were not Poles, and their alphabet certainly wasn't as disgustingly awful at least.
>>53137939 >implying that after WWII Poles and Czechs weren't just given shithloads of formerly German lands for free, while we were almost nuked by the Anglos for wanting one single city of 200.000 people
>>53138137 Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum (latin. History of the Hamburgian Church)
"Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, a Winulis incolitur, qui olim dicti sum Wandali: decies maior esse fertur nostra Saxonia, presertim si Boemian e eos, qui trans Oddaram sunt, Polanos, quaia nec habitu nec lingua discrepant, in partem adiecreris Sclavaniae.
"Slavia, the biggest of the Germanic lands, was inhabited by Winnilis, which were previously called Vandals. It's a country far bigger than our Saxonia, especially when we consider Czechs and Poles from Odra, because thye don't differ from us both with language and culture.
>>53138798 What the fuck are you on about anyway? Sudetenland were Czechoslovak, only taken away after the Munich agreement on which Germany defaulted by invading the rest of Czech lands thus making it invalid, not even mentioning the ethnic cleansing they conducted.
No one "gave" them anything as it was theirs legally to begin with.
>while ours kept shrinking and shrinking Ours expanded greatly after world war II, something like 20%.
>>53139034 Czechoslovakia didn't benefit in any way. It didn't get any clay and lost almost 3 million its citizens. Not even talking about the 40 years of eastern bloc. He's just spreading some stormfront bullshit.
>>53139103 I consider Slovenia a failed project because we failed to secure Trst and Celovec and create a reasonably large national entity for speakers of Slovene. This said relic of the idea of Zedinjena Slovenia today is basically some hills and Ljubljana.
>>53139196 Don't you get it? There was no Brno prior to 1945. Brno never existed in history. All there was, was the German city of Bruenn that had absolutely nothing to do with Czechs or Czechia apart from having been incorporated into CZSL against its inhabitants will. Half of your country wasn't your country, it was occupied German and Austrian territory.
>>53139196 >Czechoslovakia didn't benefit in any way It got most of it's territories back with a minimum death toll and destruction. For comparison Slovenia lost something like 8% of it's population and got cock blocked in the end.
>>53139235 Celovec was majority German and Trieste was majority Italian. Who gives a fuck. Ljubljana would have been the economical and cultural centre either way.
>>53139628 Yeah, benefited, considering you did jack shit during the war and supplied something like 1/4 of all the tanks Germans used to invade France not to mention all the other materiel from Czech factories. Not even mentioning that the territory you got back was awarded to you after ww1 disregarding ethnic lines and was majority German to begin with.
Holy fuck Slovenia alone had comparable military dead(~35 thousand partisans) as the whole of Czechoslovakia (including collaborators and Slovaks), Slovenes being 1.5 million strong at the time compared with Czechoslovakia and its population of 15 million, Ljubljana and the surrounding areas (capital city) had a 9.5% death rate, not just population missing, but confirmed dead.
So it's rather funny seeing you write "we lost 3 million population" yeah, of Germans which you expelled.
>>53140165 >awarded to you Slovakia was awarded desu, but we talk about the Czech part, right? Well that followed from 95% the borders of Bohemia and Moravia and (Austrian part of) Silesia. Even part of our Silesia was given to new Poland by international treaty. Germans were losers of WWI and their national interests were irrelevant.
>majority of German to begin with I already gave you one census, should I post another one or will you finally post some proofs too?
>you died so little during WWII !!! crimea river, that's good for us
>Germans which you expelled there was no other way
>>53140543 >Well that followed from 95% the borders of Bohemia and Moravia and (Austrian part of) Silesia. It doesn't fucking matter, self determination goes both ways.
>I already gave you one census, should I post another one or will you finally post some proofs too? You didn't give "me" shit as I didn't ask you for it nor were you replying for me. Want a census? See the OP.
>crimea river, that's good for us Yeah, except you can't bitch for losing anything or for being cucked by Stalin. Perhaps you should inquire why Yugoslavia was not cucked by Stalin.
>there was no other way Yeah, sure, but don't give me a sob story about how you lost population.
>>53140768 > self determination goes both ways. Germans lost the war they started, their bloody problem. Now it was their time to listen and good for them nobody from Czechoslovakia was claiming more of their clay.
>you can't bitch I'm not bitching you little shit. I am saying that Czechoslovakia didn't benefit in any way from WWII which is what you are trying to tell me. That's just your fucking twisted alternative history in your stupid bald head.
>You didn't give "me" shit No? Well have another one. This is the very Austrian-Hungarian census from 1910, showing that Germans in Bohemia were like 1/3rd of population and in Moravia 1/4th population. I guess you know German very well to read that. You can't say shit.
>>53141000 >Germans lost the war they started, their bloody problem YOU lost the war too fuckface.
>Now it was their time to listen and good for them nobody from Czechoslovakia was claiming more of their clay. That's what you literally did though, claimed ethnic German territory.
>I am saying that Czechoslovakia didn't benefit in any way from WWII which is what you are trying to tell me It literally got territories back. No WWII no Sudetenlands, in fact no Czechoslovakia. Just a neat protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.
> showing that Germans in Bohemia were like 1/3rd of population and in Moravia 1/4th population. Oh, yes, just gerrymander everything together. It's like you're pretending to be retarded.
>>53141658 >Ruthenia was given to Stalin. What pills are you on? You don't even know your own history you dumb shit. Sudetenland were given to Germany before world war 2, in fact the entire country disappeared before world war 2. Had Germany not invaded Poland post 1939 there would have been no Czechoslovakia.
>You know that this census was made by Germans not Czechs, right? I'm not trying to fool you. You're an idiot and don't even know what Gerrymandering is. See OP, see the ethnic Germans? Did they self determine to be a part of your country? No, they didn't, but according to you it's okay to include them because if you put them in the same administrative are as Czechs who outnumber them you can claim they're a minority. It's like if Russians annexed you and then claimed Czechs are a minority in Russia and don't deserve their own country as a result. In fact you should have never been allowed independence as the Czechs were a minority in Austria.
>>53141944 > It's like if Russians annexed you Czechoslovakia didn't annex anything or anybody. Your argument is invalid.
> In fact you should have never been allowed independence as the Czechs were a minority in Austria. We won the war and gained independence, case closed.
>Sudetenland were given to Germany before world war 2, in fact the entire country disappeared before world war 2. These actions were considered invalid after WWII as they were done by a criminal regime. Counting the defeat of Hitler as a benefit of WWII is twisted because it wouldn't even happen if he didn't exist at the first place. The same comes to the Sudetenland anschluss.
>>53142264 >Czechoslovakia didn't annex anything or anybody. Literally annexed non-czech and non-slovak ethnic areas.
>We won the war and gained independence, case closed. What war, imaginary one? Or did you win it like you won world war 2?
>These actions were considered invalid after WWII as they were done by a criminal regime. Counting the defeat of Hitler as a benefit of WWII is twisted because it wouldn't even happen if he didn't exist at the first place. The same comes to the Sudetenland anschluss. The Anschluss happened before the war you fucking idiot. No war-no czechoslovakia.
were were snuggly in the HRE cultural sphere, humanism et. al (with industrialisation) would come to us no matter what, it's not important if it was Franz or Luigi or Matevž that invested into eastern slovenia.
>>53142389 >ethnic areas lol, ooga booga muh ethnic areas we wuz kings and shit and then come the white man
Dude, first of all you tell me that Czechoslovakia benefited from WWII and gained terituries, I show you it's bullshit. Then you tell me that untill 1945 there was no Brno and no Czechs in that city, I again show you that it's more than bullshit. And then you tell me that before CSR were Bohemia and Moravia majority German - again, bullshit. What about YOU show ME some proofs for the change?
>>53142589 >Dude, first of all you tell me that Czechoslovakia benefited from WWII and gained terituries, I show you it's bullshit False, Czechoslovakia literally gained territories.
>Then you tell me that untill 1945 there was no Brno and no Czechs in that city That wasn't even me you illiterate fuck face.
>And then you tell me that before CSR were Bohemia and Moravia majority German - again, bullshit. Great, you're not pretending to be retarded, you ARE retarded. You didn't google gerrymandering either you dumb sack of shit.
>What about YOU show ME some proofs for the change? Sudetenland anschluss-nothing to do with world war 2 Sudetenland were majority German-simple google search Did Czechoslovakia exist in 1939, October 30? No-simple google search.
>>53142250 can you be more specific on the industry part? what industry have they developed here, especially what industry have they developed here that actually benefited us to a normal extent, not only some minimum labour shekels
i agree on the yugoshitvia part, but then again any economic development i know of stepped in atleast a decade after ww2, in the second yugoslavia
>>53143530 Cinkarna Celje for example. In general the start of industrialization of our lands started under Austria. Although Austria was laggard in industrialization compared to Germany and UK and so on at the time as well.
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