The sponge soaked in vinegar offered to Christ. Was this a

Huh. Never thought of that. Cool.

>>691922
Roman soldiers were issued with a wine that was almost vinegar and how do you suggest they give Jesus the drink while nailed on a cross. The stabbing of Jesus with the spear was most likely merciful too, ensuring him a rather quick death compared to slow agony on the cross.

>>691978

I'm not asking for the mechanism of giving him a drink, I'm asking if they were actually giving him a drink or just rubbing shit in his face.

>>691978
Jews were quite literally to blame. Romans didn't even care much for Jesus' role in the Jewish society that already had a different religion. Those Roman soldiers probably saw in Jesus somebody with more culture and reason than the Jews they were surrounded with and despised.

Pilate basically said 'you're all retarded' and would free him himself if it wasnt for such pressure. When he saw him he immidiately knew he didn't claim to be King or was any threat to the Empire. Then they tried to release him when they made the ultimatum between notorious criminal and harmless Jesus and Jews choose Baraba, which Im sure came as a shock to some Romans knowing about him.

Imagine being a Roman soldier cucked by the Jews to crucify a harmless man, which was fucked up even back then, and then watch that man slowly die on the cross. The fact that they tried to numb his pain giving him that mixture and piercing him with a spear meant they didn't hate him but did their duty in the most harmless way.

There's a theory that the "wine" which was offered to jesus was laced with opium and other narcotics as a means of lessening pain. Romans often consumed drug laced wine and simply referred to it as "wine". The bible says that the wine was mixed with "myrrh" or a "bitter substance" which could be considered opium.

>>692019
Would the soldiers crucifying him even have any idea as to what he had been charged with?

>>692019
>Those Roman soldiers probably saw in Jesus somebody with more culture and reason than the Jews they were surrounded with and despised.
lol no
Have you even read the Bible? They literally verbally and physically abuse him just before the crucifixion

>>691992

Rubbing shit in his face.

>>691922

> Theological Note.

He did not thirst for water.

>>692040
Yes. Word travelled easily back then and I'm sure they knew who he was.
Romans saw:

>Jews bitching about his teachings as much as they did about Roman religion
>his path of carrying the cross which probably gathered good and bad people, of which some wanted to help
>Disciples of Christ and his family in front of the crucifix and probably many more respectable and decent visitors paying their respects; as opposed to thieves and murderers that were often crucified
>Someone making peace with their death and finding a higher purpose in it
>potentially somebody with whom they conversed somewhat and realized he wasn't some monster to die like that

>>692019
Jesus WAS one of the Jews they were surrounded with and despised.

>>692072
He was an outcast though.

>>692069
t. my ass

>>692069
Or maybe...
Just maybe...
He's some dude they were supposed to put to death as per schedule and went home thinking nothing about it.

You know

Like professionals who have done it many times.

Tips for getting crucified in early 1st century AD:

>come up with the new ideas of God, religion and immidiatelly start talking about them to everybody you meet
>undermine the existing tradition of every village and every rabbi in every sinagogue and preach different things such as changing the core values and beliefs of the Old Testament
>gather enough of the people you meet and start travelling all around the Mid East preaching your religion and do so for years
>come to Jeruzalem, preach there and directly approach the highest ranked rabbis in the middle of their affairs
>make a mess in the Temple, insult them, use your whip to hit them and yell at everybody there while claiming you are the son of God and their Messiah
>have your disciples spread the word of miracles and belief that you are the son of God and King (of the Jews) concieved by the virgin
>do so for some substantial amount of time of your presence in Jerusalem, make friends among the Romans and Jews alike, converse fruitlessly with every rabbi in the city that thinks you a moron but is polite enough to hear you out
>gather enough people to pose a danger to their belief system
>when confronted, keep saying you are the son of God and King of the Jews
>when finally reported to the authorities for mild questioning, do keep claiming you are the Son of God and King of the Jews or at least don't deny it
>when warned potentially days or weeks before the arrest and have influential Romans and Jewish friends begging you to leave the city, remain in Jerusalem and keep teaching even louder
>let yourself be arrested

>>692019
Pilate was also likely under some scrutiny and worried about revolt after his whole "worship Caesar as God" thing failed.

>>692044
Those soldiers were most likely local auxiliaries, possibly even Jews since the Herodians loved Rome so much.

There wasn't a Legion in Judaea. It wasn't even considered a particularly useful province to tax.

>>692069

Unlikely. He was a violent criminal and a donkey thief, more importantly he was an insurrectionist against the Roman Empire.

They would have shown no mercy to such scum, that's why they probably chucked the body in a pit after they finished with him.

>>692135
You could bypass all of these steps

>Punch a Roman soldier in the face

>>692138
Why do you insist so much on Romans being gud bois who dindu nuffin?

>>692135
I wonder how much of it was contemporary and how much was attributed later.

>>692140
>He was a violent criminal and a donkey thief, more importantly he was an insurrectionist against the Roman Empire.
literally neither of this though?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUKllT8eclc

How Romans most likely dealt with Jesus

>>692157
Technically they were the rightful authority of the government of the land.
Not saying they were pure hearted philanthropists but the very least they were officially in charge.

Is it really likely that Pilate was bullied by the Jews into killing Jesus? Dude was a fucking hardass who hated Jews.

>>692157
I didn't. Pilate was a fool thinking he could force the Imperial Cult on Jewish society, especially in the framework of his authority there.

That being said, Jews in the 1st and 2nd century AD were snackbar-tier. The Romans reacted as they always did.

>>692149

Not true, unless you were a slave maybe. Sure they might well kill you for that but while crucifixion was common it was not *that* common or merely the normal way of capital punishment.

Crucifixion was for people they wanted to make an example of.

>>692209
Judea was a pretty volatile province though. I think they might have counted that as insurrection, considering the tensions in the region.

>>692199
>Is it really likely that Pilate was bullied by the Jews into killing Jesus?

It's really likely that he had no idea who Jesus even was or that they had put him to death, as prefects never met with anyone they executed

>>692190

The Gospels record him ordering his disciples to take a donkey and violently attacking traders. As for insurrectionist he was literally preaching that his Dad would come and burn up all the enemies of the Jews and create a new kingdom.

>>692231
>Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
He took the donkey, but he probably knew more than he said. He knew there was a donkey there, that alone suggests his divine insight.
That man could've been his follower or had no need of that donkey and would offer it himself. This is one possible explanation.

The other one could be Jesus' sense of material possessions; he himself owned nothing and neither did his disciples. Also posessions of that time were much different than today. Theft was not uncommon, but it maybe wouldn't be too uncommon if somebody borrowed your donkey for a ride and returned it later.

>>692257
I think random strangers taking your donkey was frowned upon back then.

>>692257

You are making assunmptions about what Jesus "probably knew" the text does not seem to support that.

I seriously doubt "random donkey borrowing" was the norm either.

>>692231
And as for 'violently' attacking traders, he merely caused the scene in the Temple to prove his point which was extremely non-materialistic.
Jesus did no wrong by me. Some things could seem too much, but people experienced feelings more deeply and acted more in tune with them 100 years ago, let alone 2000. Most of the things present in society then rarely happen nowadays.
>>692268
God works in mysterious ways? No, kidding. From his divine point of view he was morally justified and 'whereon yet never man sat' suggest on that, but from the point of view of the society it wasn't always so. But he wouldn't be who he is if he didn't practiced what he preached.

>>692302

No one cares whether Jesus "did no wrong by you" or whether his actions were "non-materialistic".

That is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. We were having an historical discussion about his crucifixion.

>>692135
Except Christ denied being the messiah.

>>692231

>moneychangers
>traders

I keep seeing this come up, but only on /his/. They weren't humble cheesemongers or potters trying to eke out a living. They were bankers ripping people off.

>>692190
Someone read "Zealot" and thinks they know the tr00 secretz of the bible.

>>692257
It doesn't take a divine insight to know that a village will have a donkey.

>>692512
Where does he deny it?
He affirms that he is in his trial (Even though it doesn't fucking matter since he would not be able to be convicted on his own confession but the Gospels suck at jewish law so it must have made for a better story).

>>692302
Real mysterious ways since Matthew says Jesus had two donkeys stolen because Matthew sucks at interpretation and had Jesus ride into town on two donkeys.

>>692512
The woman saith to him: Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers adored on this mountain, and you say, that at Jerusalem is the place where men must adore.

This mountain: Garizim, where the Samaritans had their schismatical temple.

Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me, that the hour cometh, when you shall neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, adore the Father. You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh (who is called Christ). Therefore, when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Jesus saith to her: I am he, who am speaking with thee.

>>692512
>Except Christ denied being the messiah.

>Christ
>which literally means messiah
>all of his early followers called him "Christ", i.e. Messiah

mate . . .

>>692514

If you bother to read the Gospels it was not just money changers it was people selling animals etc.

Even the moneychangers were just people trying to make a living by exchanging currency because using Roman coins with images of people on them to buy stuff wasn't allowed in the Temple.

Not that you are bothered about that sort of extreme interpretation of the Second Commandment - posting on a Weeboo Porn board and all.

>>692589

People selling animals for sacrifice in the temple. Again, people trying to profit from religion, not farmers trying to survive.

>>692620

Everyone has to make a living. There is no excuse for violent criminal behaviour.

How would you feel if some random nutter burst into your place of work declaring themselves to be the Son of God and started hitting you with a whip?

>>692666
I'd probably laugh my ass off.

It'd be like if somebody burst into a bank and started swatting people with a rubber chicken.

>>692666

They can make a living without defining the Temple.

>unholy trips

I know christ myth theory is a fringe idea, but is there any decent secular evidence of Jesus' crucifixion?

>>692716

So you would punch Jesus in the face?

>>692728

Animal sacrifices to Yahweh were a major part of Jewish religious life, the same sort of blood magic that the theology of the human sacrifice of Jesus is based on.

You can't honestly expect decent traders exchanging coins so that devout religious Jews could make purchases of animals to sacrifice (without using coins that were blasphemous because they had human images on them) to survive off pure charity. You can't expect people to sell animals without making enough money to feed their families, even if it was for sacrifical purposes.

Jesus violently assaulted decent people going about their business; like the violent criminal he was. The same as some nutter bursting into a book store owned by a honest trader, selling Bibles and religious books for a living and declaring they were the Messiah and that the people earning an honest living selling books are evil.

>>692793

And those things can be done, just not inside the temple.

>>692742

Yes, but it is from several decades after Jesus' death and may have been tampered with by Christians. See Jospehus.

>>692801

So just hit them with a whip, eh?

>>692742
If you are willing to be generous with the term evidence Josephus is the only secular source for outright crucifixion (Since Josephus doesn't mention a crucifixion) who was within a reasonable timeframe of it even though he was born after the supposed crucifixion.

The passage is extremely doubtworthy as evidence though.
It has obvious signs of tampering.
It doesn't fit the context within which it is mentioned.
It is one of two times that Josephus takes any interest in Christians at all.
He actually refuses to elaborate in any detail on the actions of Jesus other than his crucifixion and resurrection (hence tampering).
Josephus was, as mentioned, not alive at that time and mentions no source of his own.

>>692807

Why not, that's how most ancient problems were resolved.

>>692666

Depends, if my job was something like, killing babies to harvest their organs, that just might be the kick in the ass I needed to get a less horrible job.

There are tons of excuses for violent criminal behavior. Such as, violence being used against you. A corrupt totalitarian Empire exploiting the masses. protecting your neighbor from oppressive occupiers or slavers.

Lots of reasons.

You're trying to hard to grasp at straws, brah. The guy Jesus whipped was the equivalent of a guy running a pyramid scheme, except the pyramid scheme was against people poorer than you could even fathom.

>>692826

Not generally within society. All you are saying is that violent criminal behaviour is fine. Like going to your local store and holding it up with a gun because you are sure God gave you permission to do it.

>>692839

You sound a lot like someone that would bomb an abortion clinic or alternatively murder the Romanovs because you were so sure your leftist delusions were correct.

>>692840

Except it was.

You are putting modern conventions and social etiquette onto the past.

>>692886

Not at all. If you think violently assaulting random traders was the norm within Roman society then you are obviously wrong.