"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind."
"I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier. It therefore seems to me that there is one and only one valid argument on which a case for giving up strategic bombing could be based, namely that it has already completed its task and that nothing now remains for the Armies to do except to occupy Germany against unorganized resistance."
"We are going to scourge the Third Reich from end to end. We are bombing Germany city by city and ever more terribly in order to make it impossible for her to go on with the war. That is our object; we shall pursue it relentlessly."
"People talk a lot about picking out targets and bombing them, individual small targets – in the European climate? I’ve come to the conclusion that people who say that sort of thing not only have never been outside, but they’ve never looked out of a window."
"In spite of all that happened at Hamburg, bombing proved a relatively humane method."
>>690992 >"It therefore seems to me that there is one and only one valid argument on which a case for giving up strategic bombing could be based, namely that it has already completed its task and that nothing now remains for the Armies to do except to occupy Germany against unorganized resistance." The man didn't even consider the possibility that it would be a failure.
>>690927 The honours he was given were about the least possible within the British constitution. His own government considered him distasteful to the point of extreme insult in the form of faint praise.
Given the mixed and uneven development of normative concepts of war criminal, we may consider that he was publicly punished by his own state for his conduct of war: ie, that within the normative framework of his culture and time that he was a war criminal.
>>691056 It's more complicated than that when we're discussing military regimes on a national scale that are supported by the civilian population, especially when America was dragged into the war by an attack out of the fucking blue and Japanese people, by and large, were enthusiastic in their support of the war when they were on the winning side. The killing of children is unfortunate to say the least, but precision attacks literally weren't possible and public sentiment in Japan was not in favor of surrender. Far more children would have been killed by a conventional invasion, so yes, I'm glad they fucking nuked them. Moral considerations without pragmatism lead to worse state of affairs for everyone involved.
>>691070 the Germans also happily cheered their men on while they obliterated huge swathes of eastern Europe and the USSR. Meanwhile most British people were horrified by Dresden and Harris, along with all of Bombrr Command were held in something of an official disdain for decades
>>691080 Opinion with no basis but, I think it could be because the British have a deep ingrained superiority complex within their culture. Probably built up with help from dealing with less technologically advanced tribes and being le biggest empire. Mass killing isn't terribly polite.
Ultimately, war means fighting, and fighting means killing. The means whereby are of less importance. Dead is dead, whether by a sniper's bullet or an H-bomb. Post-facto arguments regarding the criminality or otherwise of an action or actor are exercises in mental masturbation.
>>692167 There is a huge difference between killing military combatants and installations and killing civilian targets and infrastructure. Though you're probably braindead enough to think that there is literally nothing wrong with executing a medic.
The Bomb was not as effective, dollar for dollar, at putting tons of explosives onto Germany and Japan.
It only became less expensive per ton of TNT-equivalent than conventional explosives in the mid-fifties, and that is when all sides started to consider the Bomb to be a special weapon; only after it really was a special weapon.
>>691070 >an attack out of the fucking blue >America din du nuffin!
When Franklin D. Roosevelt became president in 1933, the U.S. government fell under the control of a man who disliked the Japanese and harbored a romantic affection for the Chinese because, some writers have speculated, Roosevelt’s ancestors had made money in the China trade. Roosevelt also disliked the Germans (and of course Adolf Hitler), and he tended to favor the British in his personal relations and in world affairs. He did not pay much attention to foreign policy, however, until his New Deal began to peter out in 1937. Afterward, he relied heavily on foreign policy to fulfill his political ambitions, including his desire for reelection to an unprecedented third term.
Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.” The British and the Dutch followed suit, embargoing exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.
Roosevelt and his subordinates knew they were putting Japan in an untenable position and that the Japanese government might well try to escape the stranglehold by going to war. Having broken the Japanese diplomatic code, the Americans knew, among many other things, what Foreign Minister Teijiro Toyoda had communicated to Ambassador Kichisaburo Nomura on July 31: “Commercial and economic relations between Japan and third countries, led by England and the United States, are gradually becoming so horribly strained that we cannot endure it much longer. Consequently, our Empire, to save its very life, must take measures to secure the raw materials of the South Seas.”
>>692841 So what you're effectively saying is that it's the Westerners' fault for daring to regulate their own exports and deciding they didn't want to export to Japan, as they had a perfect right to decide. If only Japan had been able to force open their borders and demand trade, robbing the American, Brits, and Dutch of any meaningful sovereignty, then they wouldn't have had to sneak attack the evil Americans!
>>692868 The discussion is about FDR, senpai; you're trying to shift the goalposts. FDR knowingly and intentionally took steps that he believed would lead Japan into attacking the US while at the same time feigning ignorance of that attack in order to ensure that it was as successful as possible. That's fucking treason by proxy.
>>692855 Japan could back during the Tokugawa Shogunate. Did for about 200 years. No industrial nation can survive without importing resources.
>>692868 >regulate their own exports Deliberate attempts to halt a nation is an act of aggression. If America didn't care about affairs in Asia why would they support China and embargo Japan? They picked a side before fighting.
>>692899 FDR put Japan in a position where either it finally had to play by the rules or risk military conflict with the US. This was after many years of appeasement. But hey Nippon good boy dindu nuffin meme.
>>692924 'In 1940 Japan invaded French Indochina in an effort to embargo all imports into China, including war supplies purchased from the U.S. This move prompted the United States to embargo all oil exports, leading the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) to estimate it had less than two years of bunker oil remaining and to support the existing plans to seize oil resources in the Dutch East Indies.'
They picked a side. If America didn't want war, they wouldn't have picked a side.
>>692919 Japan won Korea and Taiwan fair and square. 'American president Theodore Roosevelt said that "Japan is the only nation in Asia that understands the principles and methods of Western civilization", and approved of the Japan–Korea Treaty of 1905 which ended the latter's independence.'
>>692935 >Japan won Korea and Taiwan fair and square. >'American president Theodore Roosevelt said that "Japan is the only nation in Asia that understands the principles and methods of Western civilization", and approved of the Japan–Korea Treaty of 1905 which ended the latter's independence.' What is the point of this post? Are you even sentient?
>>690927 bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/area_bombing_01.shtml >At the same time, Britain's air force began to realise that its bombers were not able to find and hit specific war targets such as airfields or armament factories
>Consequently, in February 1942, Bomber Command was instructed to shift the focus onto the 'morale of the enemy civil population'. This new policy came to be called 'area bombing'.
>The aiming points thereafter, for bombing raids, were no longer military or industrial installations, but a church or other significant spot in the centre of industrial towns. And since fire was found to be the most effective means of destroying a town, the bombers now carried mainly incendiary bombs.
>Since the heavy bombers were running out of targets, towns were now put on the target lists that had little military or industrial importance. Some of them, like Würzburg or Pforzheim, were selected primarily because they were easy for the bombers to find and destroy. Because they had a medieval centre, they were expected to be particularly vulnerable to fire attack.
>It is significant that only a few weeks after the raid on Dresden, on 28 March 1945, Churchill tried to dissociate himself from the destruction, and drafted the previously cited memorandum in which he denounced the bombing of cities as 'mere acts of terror and wanton destruction'.
>>693057 Not a blockade, mind you, an embargo. The US wasn't cutting Japan off from all foreign resources, we just decided that until their actions met our approval, they couldn't have our stuff. Now, the normal reaction to having all of your major trading partners embargo you might be to realize you have to change your policies and at least make some attempts at doing so, but if you're an honorrabur samurai who can't bare to lose face and you want to start an unwinnable war, I guess that's 1941 Japan.
Point is, did Roosevelt "force Japan into war"? No. They could have changed their policies re China and Indochina and probably had the embargo lifted. War was NOT their only option.
>>693116 It wasn't a full blown act of war like a blockade, but it was more than an embargo. America froze Japanese assets on its soil, much like how the EU froze Russian assets a few years ago during Ukraine.
>>692919 Nigger nobody is claiming that Japan wuz good samurai who dindu nuffin; they were in a decades-long period of violent expansion and had at this point subjugated a large chunk of Eastern asia.
People are claiming that FDR knowingly and intentionally took actions to embroil the US in a war with Japan (and, by extension, Germany) while systematically removing any mitigating factors. None of the Japanese brass (many of whom were educated in the US) that weren't political appointees wanted to go to war with America in the slightest because they knew that they would get BTFO but they had to choose between a slim chance of winning a war with the US or their entire economy shuddering to a halt. How do you think the US would react if Saudi Arabia said "lel fuck you no more oil for kafirs", just do nothing?
>>694778 >Or they could just pull out of Indochina and stop their chimpout. Except that everyone knew that Indochina wasn't the actual issue and that FDR was pushing for war, which was the point. It was a no-win situation for Japan because they could either choose to kowtow to FDR until pulling their own fangs or go to war with the US.
A big motivation for the incredible modernization and industrialization of Japan was in order to avoid western colonialism and intervention. They were not about to let themselves end up like China or so many others.
So it seems like a natural reaction upon discovering that evading western meddling was not possible. That's why they built that modern war machine, after all. Unfortunately for them they couldn't pull it off.
Mocking their social mores is ridiculous. The United States has no samurai but would not have countenanced that kind of interference in their matters or their sphere of influence either. No first-rate nation would. The ONLY difference is that the Japanese lost their gambit.
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