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What would happen if the Native Americans...
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You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

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What would happen if the Native Americans were the ones to sail to the Old World? What would play out?
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They would have had better luck travelling (back) to India via the arctic passage.
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>>680605
They'd land on a well-secured and civilized landmass, the Europeans would trade with them for a bit, and then proceed to sail over to their continent, inadvertently give them all smallpox, and then push the few that are left off their sparsely populated land. So pretty much nothing different from reality.
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What if they travelled to Australia?

Native Americans vs Native Australians. Who wins?
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>>680664
Native Americans, they had agriculture, hence larger population size. they'd win from zerg rush if nothing else.
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They would probably be immediately blasted by cannons.
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The Europeans would die of plague because the natives are the ones landing on their shores.
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>>680664
Native Americans had superior technology but they would have to get a lot of people down to Australia to have real impact
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>>680605
Columbian exchange would play out very similarly. It's not like the New World is going to take its (largely mosquito-borne) illnesses with it to Europe or wherever. Unless maybe they land in Africa and get bit a lot.
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>>680664
Native Americans that weren't buffalo fuckers had a pretty good civilization going before they got memed on by the atlantic exchange

I don't recall the aboriginese having much of anything
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>>680605
> native americans
> seafaring
they feared the ocean, only the carib did short island hops in canoes
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>>680605
The New World didn't had any major plagues, the Mayans or whatever sailors that reached Europe would have come back to their homeland full of evil euro diseases and doom their continent anyway.
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>>680664
Native Americans would slaughter abos in warfare, no contest. In the long run I honestly can't see Indians being able to survive the Australian climate because it's so radically different to America.
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>>681585
Weren't Incas used to fight in places like the Atacama? It honestly looks far worse than 'straya.
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>>681238
New world didn't have the density of domesticasted animals and cities and as a result plagues to infect the europeans with.
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>>680664
Australian here.
America wins.

The abos had some pretty nasty warfare (boomerang that would break your legs etc) but ultimately had nothing substantial like a bow or a cohesive society (too many individual tribes).

No contest.
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>>681517
Native south americans were excellent sailors, built oceanic rafts, and even the only pre-Columbian naval battle recorded in the americas was between the Inca Tupac Yupanqui army and the people of the Puna island in modern-day Ecuador. There is even a story about how the Inca Tupac Yupanqui sailed westward with equatorial rafts to some remote islands, presumably Easter Island and nearby island, bringing black people and weird treasures back to Cuzco.
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>>683272

>Native south americans were excellent sailors, built oceanic rafts,

Do you have a source that isn't just legend? I thought Andeans were pretty much confined to the coasts with their little reed boats.
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Most would die to European diseases. The remaining few would be tortured for information and then imprisoned while Europeans go to their land to enslave their families.
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>>680664
Australians would win
Javilin > Bow
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>>683342
>>683301
>>683230
>>681546
>Syphilis

The Native Americans would have a death rate of 13 percent, and sail back home bringing smallpox with them and making themselves immune
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>>683301
Ancient Maritime Trade on Balsa Rafts: An Engineering Analysis. Journal of Anthropological Research
"By approximately 100 BC Ecuadorian traders had established maritime commercial routes extending from Chile to Colombia. Historical sources indicate that they transported their merchandise in large, ocean-going sailing rafts made of balsa logs."
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>>683370
There are cases of syphilis in Europe before the contact with the Americas.
>13%
The smallest estimated death rates of Native Americans to European diseases are 25%. the highest over 80%. And that was relatively healthy Native Americans. Not guys who had traveled a month without eating fresh fruit.
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>>683426

This thread is discussing transoceanic voyages. The rafts described in that paper are purely littoral crafts.
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>>683426
Traveling long distances near the coasts is much safer than intercontinental travel, since you can always go to land in case of a storm or to resupply with fresh food, there is very little drift to drag your boat into the middle of the ocean, and you don't really get lost as long as you can keep sight of land.

Native American rafts traveling across the coasts is a completely different scale to intercontinental travel, and was probably widespread early on considering how Native Americans had populated islands like Hispaniola. Most Europeans didn't even have Ocean-worthy ships until the middle ages. Most Roman and Greeks wouldn't be able to withstand the trip.
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>>680605
I've always wondered how a large-scale native american ship would look like.
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>>683489
>>683494
The Kon-Tiki expedition proved that pre-Columbian rafts can make intercontinental travel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition
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>>683553
>Although the expedition carried some modern equipment, such as a radio, watches, charts, sextant, and metal knives, Heyerdahl argued they were incidental to the purpose of proving that the raft itself could make the journey.
And let's just ignore the fact that the locations of said islands were already charted

Yeah, his shitty little trip proves much
>b-but it just proves that the raft can physically get there regardless of everything else!

And if I throw a pebble into the ocean it might get there in a billion years too, who the fuck knows.
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>>683553

Thor Heyerdahl had the advantages of knowing where and how far his destination was, how much supplies he had to bring, how to navigate, and didn't prepare for a return journey. It was an adventure and proof of concept, but it is not itself evidence that South Americans went on these journeys.
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>>683619
>>683759
Then how do you explain this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Island#Stone_walls
"One of the highest-quality examples of Easter Island stone masonry is the rear wall of the ahu at Vinapu. Made without mortar by shaping hard basalt rocks of up to seven tons to match each other exactly, it has a superficial similarity to some Inca stone walls in South America.[83]"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=208TnXLHHUU
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>>683869

The people capable of making these were certainly capable of building a rock wall without outside help.
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>>683892
And this?
http://armchairprehistory.com/2011/01/27/easter-island-was-it-really-so-isolated/
http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/01/22/169980441/how-the-sweet-potato-crossed-the-pacific-before-columbus
"Sweet potatoes originated in Central and South America. But archaeologists have found prehistoric remnants of sweet potato in Polynesia from about A.D. 1000 to A.D. 1100, according to radiocarbon dating. They've hypothesized that those ancient samples came from the western coast of South America. Among the clues: One Polynesian word for sweet potato — "kuumala" — resembles "kumara," or "cumal," the words for the vegetable in Quechua, a language spoken by Andean natives."
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>>683925
Pretty sure the polynesians made it to south america, not the other way round. You know, the guys who did pic related
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>>683925
polynesians could have reached south america I can give you that, but amerindians sailing the open pacific? nah
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>>683869
>superficial
That word is there for a reason. Christ, it's right there in the citation, how can you miss this shit?

>Heyerdahl 1961 However, Alfred Metraux pointed out that the rubble filled Rapanui walls were a fundamentally different design to those of the Inca, as these are trapezoidal in shape as opposed to the perfectly fitted rectangular stones of the Inca. See also this FAQ at the Wayback Machine (archived October 11, 2007)

>https://web.archive.org/web/20071011083729/http://islandheritage.org/faq.html
>Q. But isn’t there an ahu (platform) on Easter Island with stonework identical to that of the Inca of ancient Peru?
>A. Actually, no. There are several examples of extremely fine stonework on the island (at Vinapu on the southwest coast, for example, and at Vai Mata on the north coast). Heyerdahl drew attention to the stonework at Vinapu and it is similar to its Incan counterpart — but in appearance only; the Inca used solid blocks of stone, whereas the ahu in question on Easter Island is back-filled with rubble. More problematical is the fact that the earliest available date for Peruvian polygonal block masonry is after 1440 ce, while that for the comparable stonework on Easter Island is c. 1200 ce.
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>>683984
I think that you kind of had a five degrees of Kevin Bacon thing going on.

Like, the Chinese were probably in contact with people, who were in contact with people further east, and so on until you get to North America.

Most of these societies were not literate.

Anyway, I wonder what it'd be like to be a South Pacific mariner and stumble upon a continent for the first time in like 50 generations.
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>>680664
Native Americans would wreck them.

Better weapons
More advanced civilization
More people
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>>681599
in Australia, the outback is literally just flat open desert for thousands of km. there's zero landmarks, zero fucking anything really it may as well be total wasteland. it also gets so fucking hot even by the ocean that people routinely post shit on the internet about them cooking meat in vehicles
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>>683434
>There are cases of syphilis in Europe before the contact with the Americas.

The first recorded case of syphilis in Europe was in 1494.
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>>683930
Maybe, that's probably what happened.
"there arrived at Tumbez some merchants who had come by sea from the west, navigating in balsas with sails. They gave information of the land whence they came, which consisted of some islands called Avachumbi and Ninachumbi"
History of the Incas by Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa
But that does not stop pre-columbian native southamericans for going after then.
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinap%C3%BA
This chronicle gave rise, the historian José Antonio del Busto, to formulate a theory about those two islands would be Mangareva 23 ° 8'3.13 "S 134 ° 58'25.25" O / -23.1342028, -134.9736806 and Rapa Nui based on thirty proofs that he considered have discovered, including the fact that there is in Mangareva a legend about a king Tupa who came from the east in rafts with sails, bringing jewelry, ceramics and textiles and there is a dance today. A similar account exist in the Marquesas Islands. According to the thesis of Jean Hervé, [12] the construction of Ahu Vinapu is identical to that of a chulpas Sillustani, near Lake Titicaca in the Andes, even small stones in the center is the same. According to the thesis of Jean Hervé Daude, the Orejón accompanying Inca Tupac Yupanqui is the cause of the monuments and religious rites like the birdman and makemake [13] He adds that Ahu Vinapu in Rapa Nui, is built in similar shape to the Inca constructions of Cusco, and the Tupa king, in Rapa Nui, would have taken the name Ra'a Mahuna-te, translated as "son of the sun" on the basis of a Rapa Nui legend. [14]
>>684025
Probably the walls were made similar only in shape to save time.
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>>683925
It is possible that some Native American fishermen ended up marauding in Easter Island or Hawaii at some point. Possibly carrying the Sweet Potatoes, and then Polynesians spread them across the pacific.

Note that we do know some Native Americans in South America have very small degrees of Polynesian ancestry, so the trip there was not that uncommon. That said, I personally don't think it would be likely for Polynesians to make it to the Americas and then return to Polynesia. Not saying it would have been impossible for them, but it seems less likely than what I propose because I can't imagine somebody who goes on such an Odyssey attempting it again,
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>>684506
This is debated. Although I guess I shouldn't have stated it as if it weren't, either.
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>>683361
> Implying you can get close enough to throw it
> Implying you're not completely fucked after throwing your 3 javelins
> Implying javelins are more useful than bows
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