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When did Christianity disappear from what's...
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You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

Thread replies: 43
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When did Christianity disappear from what's today Morocco, Tunisia and Libya?
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>>678025
Disappear is such a strong word for a changing demographic that's still around.
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>>678025
The "Majority" left it when they wanted to pay less taxes and hold more prestigious positions in an Islamic country.
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>>678025
8th-11th centuries. There was still a few left by the time of the Norman invasion of Tunisia, speaking the African-Romance Latin tongue of their forefathers like St Augustine.

Islam is inherently fairly destructive though so most had been forcefully converted or encouraged through crushing jizya taxes by the end of the 8th century.
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>>679182
>Islam is inherently fairly destructive
Yet Christians and Zoroastrians still exist throughout their lands. more than what can be said about the pagans of Europe
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>>679576
But what about the Pagans in Muslim lands?

From my perspective, as a Jew, neither group can claim any sort of innocence. I don't care about what happened 500 years ago, though, so I am fine with most Christians, except the evangelicals.
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>>679596
>pagans in Muslim lands
Which Pagans? At the time of the conquest, the only religions were Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and Gnostism- all of which still exist there.

The Yazidi religion was allowed to exist for centuries- and they are strongly pagan mixed with Islamic heresy
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>>679618
>Islamic heresy
That's redundant, m8.
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>>678025
The breakdown of central administration means the masses would have naturally been easier to convert otherwise, especially when said religion claims to supersede previous religion. We already know the material basis for that phenomenon >>678062

Islam pretty much claims to correct Christianity and they succeeded by gaining support from the masses. Churches were notoriously extravagant compared to your average craftsmen lives. Curiously, though, this also happened in predominantly Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms in Southeast Asia. As a doctrine of politics it probably was the most advanced for its time.
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>>679596
>I am fine with most Christians, except the evangelicals

But...the evangelicals are the ones who love Jews the most ? ...
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>>679596
>>679618
>pagan in muslim lands
If you're talking pre-islam arabic polytheism they just died out.

To me it seems that the arab themselves wanting some new religion, just look at how much people claimed to be prophet and gained popularity during Muhammad's time.
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>>678025
It didn't, but after the Vandals and later Berber invasions the Romanized urban culture that supported the Christian network in the area collapsed, so by the time the Arabs arrived with Islam Christianity was pushed to a handful of coastal Byzantine enclaves and a few Christian tribes. The pagan(ish) Berbers eventually married into the local Arab aristocracy that replaced the Byzantines and become Muslim client tribes, though sometimes of heterodox or syncretic persuasions. Without the extensive church infrastructure that survived in places like Spain, Syria, Egypt, and Central Asia (until the Timurids that is), major Christian populations crumbled outside of enclaves with contact with Latin/Byzantine leadership.
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Conjecture about Late Antiquity is all well and good, but there were hundreds of thousands if not millions of Christians throughout North Africa up until the 1950s. Just like with the Levant, it's the Arab independence and anti-colonial movements that was the start of the near disappearance of something like 10-30% of the population of each country. Native or colonial North African Christians either feared retribution for being considered collaborators, or saw the economic writing on the wall and took their chance to immigrate to a wealthier Western country, some of whom were even offering citizenship at the time.
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>>680181
Yeah
This
They disappeared because they immigrated to the west and assimilated into those populations
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Armenians, greeks and more recently assyrians have felt their share of genocides/mass murder in the ME if we're talking about recent history.
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>>680205
>>680181
Also the mass immigration just happened to precede the Green Revolutions that were beginning to sweep through MENA causing a rural and poor urban population boom unlike anything the region had seen in maybe two thousand years, if ever. The remaining Christian and other non-Muslim, non-Arab populations stagnated in comparison even if they were technically growing.
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>>678025
Have not disappeared, just dwindled. Always been more convenient to be a Muslim Caliphate than to be a Christian. Pay less taxes and join the aristocracy. When Christian hordes began attacking North Africa, things got even more without prestige.

There are still regions with very a large Christian population in the Middle East. Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Assyria ... Many immigrated in the course of the twentieth century.
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>>679908
isn't pre-islam pagan polytheism infused with islam ?, like djinns
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>>680263
Obviously, You don't fucking conquer that much land and that many people without easing them into being ruled by adopting their customs into yours.
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Its an ongoing process of ethnic cleansing that's been happening since the middle 20th century.
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>>679576
>Yet Christians and Zoroastrians still exist throughout their lands. more than what can be said about the pagans of Europe

Ignoring the fact that traditional pagan religions have absolutely no 'faith' aspect to them so vanished quickly in the face of conversion, with little need for bloody slaughter, considering the fact that the entire middle-east was essentially Christian or Zoroastrian, you don't very many of them today do you? The Eastern Church is tiny, and Zoroastrian no longer exists in any Muslim land, surviving only in India.
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>>682430
>Ignoring the fact that traditional pagan religions have absolutely no 'faith' aspect to them so vanished quickly in the face of conversion, with little need for bloody slaughter

Saxon Wars
Northern Crusades
Not to mention what happened to Native American religions in later history.
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>>682686
The exceptions that prove the rule. A couple of several year campaigns is hardly the same as conquering half the known world over centuries.
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>>682430
>no 'faith' aspect to them so vanished quickly in the face of conversion,

It did not vanished quickly. Scholars estimate Christianity became a majority religion in Roman Empire during the Time of Justinian, the most liberal estimate puts it down to Theodosius II. So it took 100-200 years to have Christianity at %51. I wouldn't call that "quick".

For example John of Ephesus (iirc) was ordered by Justinian to convert pagans in anatolia, and his hagiography states he converted thousands, so there were plenty pagans back in 6th century. We also know Justinian persecuted Senators who practiced paganism.

So paganism did survived there was no "quick vanishing"
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>>682430
>and Zoroastrian no longer exists in any Muslim land, surviving only in India.
There's a couple of thousand in Iran. The Yazidis are some kind of Zoroastrian-Muslim heresy, who knows. Apparently up until the 12th or even 16th century a large percentage of the Iranian population were still Zoroastrian.
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>>678025
Murdered, for the most part.
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>>683295
>Scholars estimate Christianity became a majority religion in Roman Empire during the Time of Justinian, the most liberal estimate puts it down to Theodosius II.

That's absolute horseshit. It was a majority by the start of the 5th century and by Justinian was the overwhelming majority with only a few stragglers of traditional religions existing.

>ordered by Justinian to convert pagans in anatolia

In the mountainous regions in places like Cappadocia this isn't surprising, there would remain holdouts for centuries like in the Mani peninsula.

>his hagiography states he converted thousands

I'm not inclined to believe the facts and figures from a saint's lives created with the purpose of glorifying the respective saint. It was more likely far fewer than that.

>We also know Justinian persecuted Senators who practiced paganism

The tiny, tiny minority. The senatorial elite were usually the first to convert in the east since it was the only way they could get any modicum of power or influence. In the west it was slower with the senate holding onto its pagan values into the 5th century, but even that bastion of paganism was Christianised not long after.

Traditional European religions had become a marginal force after the 5th century. Theodosius had knee-capped it by severing the links between community cult worship and influence within the community.
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>>683339
There is no broad survey regarding pagan population all we have is estimations of scholars you can aggree or disagree all you like. I rather take Kenneth Harl over you, please forgive me.

Of course hagiographies exacurate, but the act alone should give us an idea that Justinian was bothered enough to send a missionary for conversion. And it was not in "mountainous areas" per se, Aphrodisias for one had a great pagan legacy that continued to Justinanic period.

You are correct in saying the power of the pagan religions vanished, but not the population. I would say the relative tolerance of the pagans post Julian until Justinian indicates this. Theodosius crushed the pagan senatorial supported revolt but it did not persecuted the pagan senators. There are a lot of brutal anti pagan laws but they were not enforced the same way everywhere. Shenoute of Atripe for example complains how even though law permits him to destroy temples and statues the Christian governor (and the mob) does not permit him. Many Christians (and I would say even Emperors) were more pragmatic than zealous and put Stabiltiy over conversion. If I may be bold I would say they were far more obsessed with the unity of the Church than pagans who were 1-A sizeable population 2-Kept to themselves 3-Did not possesed a threat to Emperor (and when they did they were dealt Harshly, another example would be the revolt during Leo)

It is only during the time of Justinian when I see real evidence of conversion, not just John of Ephesus but also in Gaza, Egypt (more political reasons due to the Nubian tribes, check out Temple of Isis at Philae which was closed during Justinianic era)

I really have to sleep (g2g and get up early) I know I didnt clarify nor cited references and look like I'm trying to have the last world but please forgive me, gosh shouldn't have replied before going to bed.
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>>683387
lastly,


My main beef is, although paganism lost power it did not lost a lot of converts up until early 6th century, to prove it is a bit hard but I would hardly estiamte the demise of pagan population to the time of Theodosius I or Theodosius II, post jutinian also had pagan persecutions but I think early 6th century is a liberal estiamtion enough. To call conversion quick and fast is a bit of a strech.

Just my two cents, again my apologies for not staying, guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Farewell.
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>>683387
>>683395
Have a good night Anon. I just think that paganism lost its force and became confined to country bumpkins fairly quickly. Always nice to hear someone interested in the issue anyway.
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>>679908
Paganism wasn't that strong anymore in Arabia by the time of Muhammad. Pagans existed and they were numerous enough to make Mecca profitable, but christianity and judaism were strong too and amongst the elites and influent peoples stronger than any kind of paganism.
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>>682430
>All this disinformation

Nearly 20% of the Ottoman population in 1914 was Christian. There are still tens of millions of Christians in the Middle East - today.

As for Zoroastrians, is the price that they pay for having an ethnic religion. Indeed, the Buddhists were much more numerous, and so continued, before Mongol hordes sweeped Persia and Mesopotamia from the map.
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>>678025
>Sardinia

Can this retarded meme stop please?

Arab writers themselves said explicitly that they never conquered Sardinia.

There is not a name of an Arab ruler in Sardinia, not a mosque, no one who converted, we know that the most they did was sack Calaris and that Mujahid tried and failed to conquer the island.

Each century we know of several attemps of muslims trying to conquer the island, we know of Christian "princes" or judges that ruled the island and asked for help to the pope, this should clear things up, but no, some retarded historian just assumes that it got conquered stably like Sicily just because it's in the middle of the Mediterranean.

Seriously fuck off to whoever made this map.
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>>684850
>Nearly 20% of the Ottoman population in 1914 was Christian.

That's because they conquered Greece, the Balkans and Christian parts of the Caucasus. I was talking about the middle-east (as loose as the term is).

>There are still tens of millions of Christians in the Middle East - today.

There's about 8-10 million, out of a population of like 380 million.
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Islamic rule makes you want to convert to avoid the small level persecution you get from Muslims as individuals and from the Imams when they call for something violent and you get the Islamic mob treatment.

t. Christian in a Muslim country who has family who have converted to avoid it
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Confused as to why beja are considered as a single type of people while nubians and Abyssinian are considered both Nubians.
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>>685968
Can't imagine dealing with that shit day in day out. Iraq by any chance?
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>>679576
It also can't be said about indigenous religions of Arabian peninsula which are said to be tolerated accepted and the worship of traditional deities - to be honoured - in quaran itself.
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>>682430
>Zoroastrian no longer exists in any Muslim land
They still live in Iran. I even visited a temple in Yazd.
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>>682430
>and Zoroastrian no longer exists in any Muslim land

Shi'a Islam confirmed for not really Islam.
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>>678025
>Sardinia
Map is bullshit
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>>685947
>That's because they conquered Greece, the Balkans and Christian parts of the Caucasus. I was talking about the middle-east (as loose as the term is).

Ever heard of the Balkan Wars? They had no more control over Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, even on Albania in 1914.

And the Caucasus was under Russian control since 1864.

20% refer to the Middle East in 1914.

>There's about 8-10 million, out of a population of like 380 million.

There are 15 million in Egypt alone. Approximately 22 million in the Middle East.
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>>686868
Yes. Good guess.
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