They probably could have gotten some areas back with Gandhi style passive resistance until a referendum was held.
Otherwise, it could have gone either way.
German dissatisfaction with Versailles was much bigger than Hitler, and I can see a more moderate figure using some coercive diplomacy on the neighbors, especially since the British and French were unwilling to respond with military force.
Are you kidding? Hitler get so much power because the Versailers "Treaty". In fact he was the very first chancellor that acceptet some of the borders (Italy and France). He was even the only one who seek negoation with Poland. As a German i say you: Never ever would i acceptet something that incredible stupid and inmoral as the Versailes "Treaty". I would rather see rest of Europe burn, before that would happen.
With the benefit of hindsight, Germany would have been much better off accepting their 1918 Versailles borders, considering everything they lost in 1945. But dindu nuffin Germany, like in 1914, had no sense of perspective, only RAHH RAHH PRUSSIA IST BEST PRUSSIA MUH MILITARISM AND REICH! Should have stopped with getting Austria...
It was extremely lenient. Compare it to Brest-Litovks or treaties with other Central Powers: Trianon, Sevres, Saint-Germain, Neuilly-sur-Seine. Germany, the greatest warmonger, emerged unscathed while her more or less willing associates got dismembered. Or to what Germany had in store for the Western allies.
Fucking Anglos, if they didn't take Germany's side at Versailles, there would be no WW2.
>>674440 how would id be fair if France lose a war and have to paid 1.797.405.490 USD, lose one if thirt of the terrotery and everything above Europe be fair in anyway? And be declared to have start the war.
>>674596 Germany did not just paid money. And terorrotery. They give recourses and 12% of the Export the earnd. And were not allowed to have a zoll. The Damage from the war was a lot smaller than from WW1. And Germany did win his war on his own. Not by having debts to america.
Of course they stopped paying in the early 20's They went into fucking hyperinflation mode and the French marched into he Ruhr, killed workers and demanded their payments in Steel. No fucking wonder why the Krauts got sand in their vagina.
>>674631 do you know what the Gold Standard is? Back then money was based on Gold. It does not matter what Germany actually in the End compared paid. The 1,7 trillon a metion before were the "debt" in Gold in todays time. Without interests! Thats almost the same number that todays Germany have in debt! Mean by a new Versailers Germany would have to paid 40 Billion (1-2% interest) every year just for the interest! No Goverment in the World would agreed to something as this! Compared to Frances paid this is lauhigbal. When 1871 Germany would make this as France debt.... France would be a third world country today.
>>674815 why leniant? Britain is war mongol number 1 in world history, second is france. Both Countries had much more colonies. Germany did until this time never did anything in crime that is compared metioned. Even when you add the Nazi-Regime to itt. its just a joke compared. Here in the west, everyone is pointig his finger to Germany.. The Rest of the World is different. the big Propaganda you were told is just a lie.
Also you're talking about what is fair haha. Yes, what's fair is that when you get defeated you get to repair all the damages you've been doing for only four years, especially if your economy has been flourishing.
>>674925 only as part of a carrot and stick approach. the sticks in gandhi's case were initally the bengali and punjabi youth that were more open to a violent solution, and later the INA scaring the british shitless.
>>674941 So penalize the losers? Thats disgusting. So when the Nazis had won the war, the holocaust would be ok- Because the winner say so! The Enetane were not victims by an German Empire than would crush them. Would that be that case, By the way: Yes Germany lose both wars (obvisoly) but the first one to the USA and the second one to UdSSR. Germany would have won the war. The Germans troop did took a lot of Damage too.
>>675178 So my ancestor could not do anything right? Hm. I do not know from wich country you are. But at long you are not from China, India or Japan etc.. i would gues my ancestor did do a incredible good job compared. And ibetter than you ancestor did. But i admit since 1991 Germany did a lot of mistakes.
"You cant blame us" As long you are from Britain and Commomwealth, France, USA or UdSSR. Yes you can not blame us. Compared to your our Nation is holy. Why did you think the not-Nato Nations are so pissed about the Western World? Its because of there double-standardt of the past and present.
exampel: past: Its okay when you conquer any land and steal ressources. But other nations are not allowed to do so. -Its ok when you think you are better then the rest of the world, other ones are racist if the think so. -Its ok when all your Peopel from a nation can live in one country, but other nations are not allowed. -Its ok to build an Empire, but its not ok when other do it, too.
present: Its ok when you have atomic bombs, other are not allowed do to so. -Its ok to invade other countries, other nations that do this are the Evil itself.
"germany dindu niffin" We admitt that we make some big mistakes and crimes in history. But compared to you, its a joke. Last time i check the UK had not shown in there TV the concetrations camps in India every day.
That you do not misunderstood me; Yeah this thing we do wrong in history; -Having Colonies. -Holocaust -Joining the Nato and EU
Everthing else was in my eyes legit. And i would do it myself. And you have to think about it, Germany is today also a west-country. That is in my eyes the biggest crime we did so far.
>>675448 So like the Indians? That is calling Genocide kiddie. I am a German, the media explains me every day what a Genocide is. Hitler would call it Propaganda. So it was also a mistake that Britain did not destroy France in the past, two times. You think after Napoleon the should burn entire France down? If you think so, its fine. Its your (primitive) Opinion. History is told by the winners ;) But its still just half of the story. You miss then half of history.
>>675428 >So penalize the losers? Thats disgusting. Wow. Did you even think before typing this? haha, please open a book before talking please >The Germans troop did took a lot of Damage too. I'm talking about civilians in German territory
Aside from self-aggrandisement and self-whitewashing.
Speer is actually proven to be a complete hack on many issues, ranging from him running the economy up to the extent of his knowledge about the Holocaust. Some of the charges against him surfaced when he was still alive and he was hilarious in ways in which he tried to worm out. For example, from his own memoirs it's evident that he was present at the SS meeting at which Himmler delivered the Posen Speech. Speer even mentions that SS officials got drunk after the conference. When this was pointed out to him, he said that he totally left the place before Himmler opened his mouth and he totally mixed that particular conference with another.
>>675535 My blood line has a literal wikipedia page and a statue, schools named after him, "Willi". so its debatable whos ancestor was better
As for the rest, theres Germans and Wehraboos who claim that Germany did nothing wrong, that all the war crimes were justified and what not, thats what im upset about. My country didnt have colonies and concentration camps.
>>675556 Actually, the reason France wasn't completely dismantled (although it did lose almost all territorial gains it made under nappy), was that the war wasn't against France. It was against Napoleon's regime, to put the Bourbons back in power. So, what do you know, the Coalition won, the Bourbons were put back into power.
This is what happens when we let /int/ leak, folks.
Well given Germany did engage in the systematic destruction of all industrial capabilities within its occupied territories during WWI, I fail to see how reacting in kind with the destruction of Germany post-war would have been in any way unjustified.
>>674362 None of the taken areas had a German majority. They even got too much Silesia and East Prussia through shenanigans in referendum. Only thing up to debate was Gdańsk/Danzig and extraterritorial highway through Polish Corridor.
>>674349 The German problem is the distant consequence of massive fuck-ups the Great Powers did since the Thirty Years War or probably older. They were at fault, but the other Great Powers' hands weren't clean either.
Don't forget too that the interwar Polish government were massive assholes too, persecuting minorities, etc.; chauvinistic and borderline fascists. Anti-Germanism was rampant during and after WWI.
>>676155 We'll give you Danzig if you gib some of Silesia and leave us alone during your conquest boner tour
>Don't forget too that the interwar Polish government were massive assholes too, persecuting minorities, etc.; chauvinistic and borderline fascists. Anti-Germanism was rampant during and after WWI. Yee, part of it was the country was just born again and they felt the need to imprison anyone who was an opponent to a free Polan (Ukies, Commies), another part of it was the Germans wern't onboard with a independent Poland, and neither was Lenin
>>675556 The big difference is that, you know, Napoleon and France did somewhat modernized Europe, abolished feudal rights, gave the Napoleonic code, gave the Poles a real state. A lot of european leaders, like Alexander I admired France. Compare that with the way Germany acted under Hitler, there is a big difference.
>>674362 >They probably could have gotten some areas back with Gandhi style passive resistance until a referendum was held. Referendums happened and they've either lost or had to give up after uprisings.
No they wouldn't. Germans already started building the propaganda of "we dindu nothin' everybody wanted war it just escalated" so the revanchism was likely there.
British were too conservative in what they did to Germany, it should've been balkanised or partitioned.
>>674480 Habsburgs wanted a compromise after Serbia refused the ultimatum because of one single point but Germans pressured them on keeping it as it was originally.
French retreated soldiers from borderzone, Russians haven't started mobilisation yet, British tried to settle down the issue. >>674567 France paid more of their reparations after 1871 than Germany did after 1918.
>>676310 >France paid more of their reparations after 1871 than Germany did after 1918. And the war of 1870 actually took place in France, so the French were invaded, got their capital bombed and had to pay war reparations to Germany.
>>676310 There was no financial crisis and WW1 hid Germany much harder financially so the situation is incomparable.
In the end, the reparations of 1871 didn't cripple France as much.
>Habsburgs wanted a compromise after Serbia refused the ultimatum because of one single point but Germans pressured them on keeping it as it was originally. No, this is nonsense. Germany wanted for Austria to march in fast, kick ass, take names and get things done before the other powers could react. And it would have all worked out, had the Austrian soldiers not been at home for harvest, which delayed the whole thing by months and gave the other powers time to mobilise.
It was still a fucking retarded idea to go to war over Serbia. Russia should have never backed the Serbian terrorists and France is as much at fault for backing Russia in that one.
>>676343 Oh please so the nation declaring war on someone is not at fault but the other nation deciding to honor their alliance is? And lets not forget it was Germany who decided to invade and utterly try to destroy a neutral country out of convenience, they have zero moral highground in WWI
>>676358 Austria had all right in the world to demand investigating who murdered their Archduke. No country in the world would have tolerated terrorists who murdered their heir to the throne to keep on operating in their direct vicinity. Russia backing Serbia in resisting the Austrian demands out of pan-slavic ambition in an attempt to regain face after losing so pitifully against the Japanese, fanned the fires, and France - a republic - backing Russia, the most totalitarian of Monarchies that were still around, out of revanchism didn't help either.
In the end it was a fucking retarded idea and it definitely was not worth it.
>>676362 Let's not forget how Germany destroyed medieval castles, juste because they could https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Coucy >In March 1917 the retreating German army on the order given by general Erich Ludendorff destroyed the keep and the 4 towers. It is not known whether this act had some military purpose or was merely an act of wanton destruction. The destruction caused so much public outrage that in April 1917 the ruins were declared "a memorial to barbarity"
And also how they bombed the Reims cathedral on purpose. Germans deserve everything bad that happened to them in WW2.
>according to the Sécurité Civile agency in charge, at the current rate no fewer than 700 more years will be needed to completely clean the area. Some experiments conducted in 2005–06 discovered up to 300 shells/10,000 m2 in the top 15 cm of soil in the worst areas.
>Some areas remain off limits (for example two small pieces of land close to Ypres and Woëvre) where 99% of all plants still die as arsenic can amount up to 17% of some soil samples (Bausinger, Bonnaire, and Preuß, 2007).
>>676365 >No country in the world would have tolerated terrorists who murdered their heir to the throne to keep on operating in their direct vicinity. Serbia arrested and convicted those terrorists. >Russia backing Serbia in resisting the Austrian demands They weren't even mobilised, the "Russia backing Serbia" is result of international treaties. > France - a republic - backing Russia, the most totalitarian of Monarchies that were still around It was defensive alliance meant to protect them from German invasion which... oh dear it happened!
>>676371 >Serbia arrested and convicted those terrorists. And Austria quite understandably felt that wasn't enough and wanted to do investigations of their own.
>They weren't even mobilised, the "Russia backing Serbia" is result of international treaties. Serbia was assured of Russian support, who in turn were certain of French support. Otherwise Serbia would have never dared resist the Austrian demand.
>It was defensive alliance meant to protect them from German invasion which... oh dear it happened! It happened because Russia mobilised near the German border and France wouldn't declare themselves neutral. If you pose a threat then you shouldn't be surprised that you get attacked.
>>676365 19th century saw a rather large number of royals and high government officials assasinated, although usually by social movements rather than national ones. Starting a world war over that shit was unprecedented. Generally, no one even liked Franz that much, especially not Hotzendorf, he just wanted some dick waving and killing and used it as an excuse.
Also, I can't understand how people don't take into consideration that Serbia accepted all but one point (a point that would violate their sovereignity and constitution) of the ultimatum for actions done by a non-official, rogue organisation. All but one point to an ultimatum by the very country that looked to gobble up yugoslav and serbian lands for the past 50 years at least. The Serbs were very considerate imo.
>>676367 and in 1914 the Germans burned down the library of the Leuven university deliberately destroying over 330,000 books, many of which dated back to medieval times again without justification or sufficient provocation.
>>676377 >All but one point to an ultimatum by the very country that looked to gobble up yugoslav and serbian lands for the past 50 years at least. The Serbs were very considerate imo. Perhaps they were, but it apparently wasn't enough. It was a delicate manner.
>this Germany Dindu Nuffin deu gud boyz ITT holy shit
also >muh WW1 muh Versailles caused muh WW2 and muh Hitler mindnumbing and mindboggling people literally glossing over twenty years of political, economic development and world altering events such as the great depression
>>676379 Russia had no business mobilising in the first place and backing a nation that was perceived as to be protecting terrorists.
>Breaking treaties is Germany's domain. If your partner is doing something retarded you might want to reconsider whether it's a good idea to honour your treaty.
Do you honestly think WW1 was worth it?
France lost more men than in any war before. 40,000 men butchered by German steep angle artillery in a single day in the Ardennes. The Russian Tsar lost his throne, his life, his family, the Monarchy was ended. Communists took over all of Eastern Europe. The British Empire lost their predominance in the world, the US started to take over.
Yeah, I'm certain giving in to the demand to let Austria investigate would have had much worse consequences.
>>676391 >Russia had no business mobilising in the first place see >>676379 >Breaking treaties is Germany's domain. >>676391 >If your partner is doing something retarded you might want to reconsider whether it's a good idea to honour your treaty. That partner was key part of French defensive strategies. >Do you honestly think WW1 was worth it? In 1914 nobody knew how it would fare.
>>676387 And why exactly would Germany attack France if France was neutral? You know Germany's primary geopolitical conflict was with Russia, correct? Springing from the anxiety over Russia's rapid industrialization, leading to the inevitable Russian eclipsing of German capacity?
>>676402 so the french, diplomatically isolated in the years before ww1 and without any support should a repeat of 1870 happen, should have just abandoned their alliance with russia - an alliance the germans themselves made possible, and an alliance specifically aimed at protecting each other against a german threat? the french and the russians were worried about a belligerent germany and turned to each other for protection, and your reaction to that would be to... dissolve those ties in face of this exact german belligerence
>>676414 >WW2 was pretty much the strategic continuation of WW1. That's stretching it.
Then you have Yugoslavia and Ukraine(currently ongoing), by some definitions also Georgia(2008). >>676419 >in case France declared war against a German state No, the treaty stated that it was in case of defensive war, Germany(or other power) would have to declare it.
>>676426 >>in case France declared war against a German state >No, the treaty stated that it was in case of defensive war, Germany(or other power) would have to declare it. Ah, you're talking about 1870, ignore it.
More like 95%, which includes bilinguals who were almost entirely of Polish extraction or from mixed marriages. There were also some Polish towns within the Danzig Free City, like Peckel or Zoppot, the latter being a fashionable resort for the Polish rich. Although I agree, in 1939 Danzig was overwhelmingly German, which is precisely why Poland was willing to let it go on good terms, but not when Hitler used it as a blatant excuse to start a war.
It was however a different matter in 1918. There was much more Pole within the city back then. The number of Poles fell due to immigration, since the city authorities were openly hostile to them.
>>676422 under the same reasoning had germany been destroyed as a state WWII would have never happened either so germany should indeed have been split up in small states about equal in power and importance to say the low countries
>>676431 And he was only able to reach anyone because he could turn his small scale gazette Pravda into a major newspaper with funds from the German Empire. Not to mention that the socio-economic situation caused by the war made him seem a whole lot more popular than he was before.
>>676434 >under the same reasoning had germany been destroyed as a state WWII would have never happened either Possible, but it should be considered that Hitler didn't take over from Berlin, he took over from Munich. It's well possible that he could have done the same to a singular German state and then continue taking over one after another. With military intervention he could have been possibly stopped, but that's another story.
>>676435 >Other than that, the revolution in Russia didn't happen because of reichsmarks, but it did happen because of the war. Lenin was recruited by the German Social Democratic Party. Their agent Alexander Parvus met him in Switzerland, they provided an armoured train for him, a ferry to Sweden, and handed him a whole lot of money with the goal of bringing Russia to its knees through revolution. This wasn't the first time the German Empire did this. They also did it in Ireland, where they funded an uprising. They did it in Ukraine, Poland, Finnland where they supported nationalist ambitions.
So, am I the only one who sees the ascention of NSDAP as almost directly related to the Great Depression and only consequentially related to revanschism and Versailles?
I mean, the SPD and KPD together got more votes than NSDAP in '33, without the internal schism and Stalin's hijinks, imo Weimar could have just as easily turned commie rather than nazi. I feel that this is even reflected in today's european (and to an extent USA's) political spectrum, with both far right wing and commie ideologies becoming much more popular after the 2008 depression and the resulting greecednebt and nonresulting immigrant crises.
>>676462 Lenin was just one small cog in the entire thing. One part of one party. Ultimately, they prevailed, but it wasn't a clear thing in 1917. The seeds of the social revolution were planted in 1861. Also, what is 1905.
I mean, it's like saying the french revolution wouldn't happen without Danton or some bullshit like that.
>>676467 however if he had to rapidly unite germany before engaging in outward expansion he would have likely been perceived as a threat much sooner heck its likely he might not have even pursued any goals outside of the reunification of germany given the amount of problems that'd bring
>>676477 Quite possible. I'm just saying that there are too many factors at play. In any case, it wouldn't have been completely impossible for him to re-unify Germany. I do agree however that the likelihood of WW2 happening would have been much smaller - especially if some sort of national narrative was installed, e.g. blaming WW1 on the monarchy and making use of German regionalism.
>>676483 it's also perfectly valid to say "Without Theodosius' victory at Frigidus, there wouldn't have been a 30 years war"
Is it relevant? No. It wasn't clear that communism would take over eastern europe in 1918 and it wasn't clear that that would happen in 1941. Hell, you could argue commies won in Yugoslavia simply because of Churchill's decision to fund them in '42.
So, your broad generalisation just showed your ignorance on the matter, but instead of manning up and admitting it, you had to drag me into this stupid back-and-forth, shifting goalposts left and right.
And was making top dollar on it, since it was within Polish customs zone without having any customs.
The irony is that transferring Danzig to Germany would ruin the city economically. The free trade zone would be gone and Poland would no longer use thethe Danzig seaport. Danzig /Gdańsk sole economic reason for existence lies in servicing the Vistula basin.
>>676491 It was the conditions created by WW1 and the German intervention in the form of funding Lenin which resulted in the rise of Communism in Russia and which was the cornerstone of their later expansion. This remains a fact. You on the other hand are fleeing into minor details in regards to whether or not Commies could have taken over this or that Eastern European shithole by this or that year.
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